| chimchimm5 | 11-03-2006 07:52 PM |
Cobb AP stock map and autox rules
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I'm planning on the AP2 when it's truly available. But I have a question.
Scenario: Got Cobb AP(1 or 2) and the base map has been flashed to Stage 1, since this is the map intended to be used most of the time. The real time maps is used for switching maps between (cobb "stock", stage 1, valet, antitheft, etc). Real time is great because it doesn't involve reflashing.
** Main idea: I want to avoid reflashing my base map
So... it's time for autox weekend. I AP the real time to "stock", but haven't touched the base map because of the Main idea. In Cobb's notes, the "stock" map is as close to stock as Cobb could, but they can't gaurantee it is exactly the same as the original stock map on a particular car. Apparently, once you go AP, you never can get the true original map back, even after unmarrying.
The real time is what is actually used (IIRC) and the base is only used if the ECM is reset and it needs to recopy the map to real time.
So:
- cobb stage 1 base map
- cobb "stock" real time map
So... is this good enough to be considered "stock ecu"; aka not a modified ECU that would bump you out of DS or STX classes?
Scenario: Got Cobb AP(1 or 2) and the base map has been flashed to Stage 1, since this is the map intended to be used most of the time. The real time maps is used for switching maps between (cobb "stock", stage 1, valet, antitheft, etc). Real time is great because it doesn't involve reflashing.
** Main idea: I want to avoid reflashing my base map
So... it's time for autox weekend. I AP the real time to "stock", but haven't touched the base map because of the Main idea. In Cobb's notes, the "stock" map is as close to stock as Cobb could, but they can't gaurantee it is exactly the same as the original stock map on a particular car. Apparently, once you go AP, you never can get the true original map back, even after unmarrying.
The real time is what is actually used (IIRC) and the base is only used if the ECM is reset and it needs to recopy the map to real time.
So:
- cobb stage 1 base map
- cobb "stock" real time map
So... is this good enough to be considered "stock ecu"; aka not a modified ECU that would bump you out of DS or STX classes?
| KC | 11-03-2006 07:57 PM |
Some, like me, say yes, it is no longer the stock map, therefore, not legal for stock. However, I'm in the vocal minority. I've been trying to nail down anything that says that these are not stock boost maps. They are just very good approximations of them... but, they're not exactly the same as delivered from the factory, or from SOA.
YMMV...
--kC
Tosses match, steps back about 50 feet, and watches the show.
YMMV...
--kC
Tosses match, steps back about 50 feet, and watches the show.
| AtomicRacer | 11-03-2006 08:13 PM |
I would think anything other than the factory map(s) would be illegal in any of the stock classes.
-Paul
-Paul
| jmhubbard01 | 11-03-2006 08:20 PM |
PDX tuning offers STX, STU, and street modified, etc. maps. (I am running their street maps - very nice short of a ProTune)
Cobb has at least an STX map.
Not sure if these maps have really been addressed in the rules, but they are certainly designed to keep your ECU in those classes as to boost levels anyway.
Cobb has at least an STX map.
Not sure if these maps have really been addressed in the rules, but they are certainly designed to keep your ECU in those classes as to boost levels anyway.
| PhilC | 11-03-2006 08:20 PM |
The legal map MUST be the base map not the real-time for it to be legal in ST IMO and someday I'd be quite happy to help someone win a protest at a national event on that issue.
I'd have to say that any car that has ever been flashed by an AP would not be stock class legal especially since your "stock" isn't stock anymore. Why not use the OpenECU tools so you can actually keep your own stock map if you want it?
I'd have to say that any car that has ever been flashed by an AP would not be stock class legal especially since your "stock" isn't stock anymore. Why not use the OpenECU tools so you can actually keep your own stock map if you want it?
| PossumK | 11-03-2006 08:30 PM |
The new unreleased Accessport 2.0 claims to store and reflash the original ECU data when the AP is uninstalled from the car. So it may be a valid return to stock for some people using the AP 2.0 in the future.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1123630[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1123630[/url]
| chimchimm5 | 11-03-2006 08:43 PM |
It sounds like people with AP will have to spend the flash cycle to the base map in order to truly get the stock map back.
To have any kind of fun car, one get's quickly escorted into Modified. :(
To have any kind of fun car, one get's quickly escorted into Modified. :(
| jmhubbard01 | 11-03-2006 08:48 PM |
[quote=chimchimm5;15862814]It sounds like people with AP will have to spend the flash cycle to the base map in order to truly get the stock map back.
To have any kind of fun car, one get's quickly escorted into Modified. :([/quote]
That's what I was thinking.
I don't race AutoX - but if I did I would certainly understand how Possum, Atomic, et. al. feel about it - stock is stock...
To have any kind of fun car, one get's quickly escorted into Modified. :([/quote]
That's what I was thinking.
I don't race AutoX - but if I did I would certainly understand how Possum, Atomic, et. al. feel about it - stock is stock...
| 05GrayWRX | 11-03-2006 10:11 PM |
I got moved to ESP with AP Stage 1 (and some other mods FSB/RSB, short shifter). You could use the STX map in the STX class with the "right" mods (TBE). I'm a rookie, so it didn't really matter.
| jamesohoh7 | 11-04-2006 09:57 AM |
I seriously would not bat an eye if the SCCA does a take-back on downpipes in the near future in addition to putting a moritorium on things like map-switchable ECU tuning: AP/EcuTek/UTEC all allow some form of on-the-fly map-switch.
I also personally don't think it'd make much of a difference if DP's are taken away... the rally cars will still do very well. It would be interesting to see, for sure.
I also personally don't think it'd make much of a difference if DP's are taken away... the rally cars will still do very well. It would be interesting to see, for sure.
| Butt Dyno | 11-04-2006 03:06 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC;15862628]The legal map MUST be the base map not the real-time for it to be legal in ST IMO [/QUOTE]Out of curiosity, is this a "letter of the law" thing or is there actually a performance difference? Or is it so people can't accidentally reset their ECU in grid to the base map?
When Doug did mine, he gave me a base "ESP" map, and a realtime STX map... and I have had a hard time getting him to answer my email about getting that changed. I figured he just did the same thing for everyone else. *shrug*
john
When Doug did mine, he gave me a base "ESP" map, and a realtime STX map... and I have had a hard time getting him to answer my email about getting that changed. I figured he just did the same thing for everyone else. *shrug*
john
| jmhubbard01 | 11-04-2006 04:40 PM |
PDX for me and I have teh same deal. STX is a realtime map. I thought as long as you were not playing with boost over a stock set-up you were kosher. I am not sure that the rules have clearly dealt with[B] maps [/B](realtime vs. base) yet. But as I stated earlier in the thread, I would certainly not have a problem if there was a need to tighten up stock layer rules. AutoX is a competition after all! One that I haven't yet had a chance to enjoy, but I am building my WRX to compete. And I certainly want to learn in the stocks so am curious about how this all progresses.
| leecea | 11-04-2006 06:50 PM |
I thought that stock rules allowed replacement of parts with non-factory parts as long as they were equivalent performance wise. So, if my clutch, battery, intercooler hoses, etc are replaced by Pep Boys OE equivalents I'm legal. But, if I use a performance clutch, lightweight battery, or silicon hoses, I'm not. So, if Pep Boys made an OE equivalent ECU, would that be a legal replacement if I damage mine?
| Warp3 | 11-04-2006 10:47 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea;15869899]So, if Pep Boys made an OE equivalent ECU, would that be a legal replacement if I damage mine?[/QUOTE]
That's actually part of my theory on why the "stock map" for many reflashes would still be legal in stock (assuming you use the stock base map as well, of course, otherwise you aren't running all the stock values). From what I gather (and if this isn't the case, I reverse my position :lol: ), the "stock" map uses the values from a stock car of the same type (i.e. the "stock" map available for the 2002 WRX contains the stock values from a 2002 WRX, though it may differ in map values from that of your own stock 2002 WRX). The complaints I've read in that past talk about how different cars (within the same model year even) may have slightly different boost mappings from the factory. However, unless it is a factory mandated recall reflash (and thus only the "new" spec is legal in Stock class per the stock rules regarding recalls), then ANY of them should be legal (assuming that mapping was available for your specific car and model year)! Why? Because it is the same part with the same part number. If two stock 2002 WRXs swap ECUs are they both not stock legal now? No. It doesn't matter if Subaru had a slightly different mapping between the two as it is still the STOCK spec part for a 2002 WRX.
To anyone that believes differently, my question is this? Are you honestly saying it is illegal to use ANYTHING but the ECU that actually shipped with the car in stock? So if you fry your stock ECU and order a new one from Subaru (or from an autoparts store), your car isn't stock legal anymore? Riiiiiight... :rolleyes:
That's actually part of my theory on why the "stock map" for many reflashes would still be legal in stock (assuming you use the stock base map as well, of course, otherwise you aren't running all the stock values). From what I gather (and if this isn't the case, I reverse my position :lol: ), the "stock" map uses the values from a stock car of the same type (i.e. the "stock" map available for the 2002 WRX contains the stock values from a 2002 WRX, though it may differ in map values from that of your own stock 2002 WRX). The complaints I've read in that past talk about how different cars (within the same model year even) may have slightly different boost mappings from the factory. However, unless it is a factory mandated recall reflash (and thus only the "new" spec is legal in Stock class per the stock rules regarding recalls), then ANY of them should be legal (assuming that mapping was available for your specific car and model year)! Why? Because it is the same part with the same part number. If two stock 2002 WRXs swap ECUs are they both not stock legal now? No. It doesn't matter if Subaru had a slightly different mapping between the two as it is still the STOCK spec part for a 2002 WRX.
To anyone that believes differently, my question is this? Are you honestly saying it is illegal to use ANYTHING but the ECU that actually shipped with the car in stock? So if you fry your stock ECU and order a new one from Subaru (or from an autoparts store), your car isn't stock legal anymore? Riiiiiight... :rolleyes:
| PhilC | 11-05-2006 10:50 AM |
[QUOTE=Warp3;15871677]To anyone that believes differently, my question is this? Are you honestly saying it is illegal to use ANYTHING but the ECU that actually shipped with the car in stock? So if you fry your stock ECU and order a new one from Subaru (or from an autoparts store), your car isn't stock legal anymore? Riiiiiight... :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
If Subaru issued an official part update then yes you can use the newer ECU, but NOT an older one. So, for instance if you started with a 2004 WRX, somehow damaged your ECU and went to the dealer for a new one, the dealer's official parts book says the replacement part number is 2004.5 version then that is legal. If you damage that and go back and now the dealer's official parts list says the replacement is part number 2005.2 then that is legal. But it would not be legal for you to use a 2003 ECU you got from a junkyard in your car because it was never a legal option. An ECU isn't a wear item by any stretch of the imagination so an OE equivalent would never be a legal option, it would have to be OE.
So for instance our 2003 WRX came with an A4TC101L revision ECU in it. So if we were still in stock it's legal for me to have an ECU with that revision in the car. But it wouldn't be for someone who has a 2004 WRX to have that revision in the car in a stock class. If we had a later production 2003 it might have come with a 201 or a 301 in it and it would not be legal for us to have a 101 revision in a stock class.
So now you get into a "stock" flash. It is not a Subaru provided ECU revision for ANY car even if most/all of the settings are supposed to be the same as stock so it's not stock legal.
If Subaru issued an official part update then yes you can use the newer ECU, but NOT an older one. So, for instance if you started with a 2004 WRX, somehow damaged your ECU and went to the dealer for a new one, the dealer's official parts book says the replacement part number is 2004.5 version then that is legal. If you damage that and go back and now the dealer's official parts list says the replacement is part number 2005.2 then that is legal. But it would not be legal for you to use a 2003 ECU you got from a junkyard in your car because it was never a legal option. An ECU isn't a wear item by any stretch of the imagination so an OE equivalent would never be a legal option, it would have to be OE.
So for instance our 2003 WRX came with an A4TC101L revision ECU in it. So if we were still in stock it's legal for me to have an ECU with that revision in the car. But it wouldn't be for someone who has a 2004 WRX to have that revision in the car in a stock class. If we had a later production 2003 it might have come with a 201 or a 301 in it and it would not be legal for us to have a 101 revision in a stock class.
So now you get into a "stock" flash. It is not a Subaru provided ECU revision for ANY car even if most/all of the settings are supposed to be the same as stock so it's not stock legal.
| Warp3 | 11-05-2006 02:59 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC;15874192]So for instance our 2003 WRX came with an A4TC101L revision ECU in it. So if we were still in stock it's legal for me to have an ECU with that revision in the car. But it wouldn't be for someone who has a 2004 WRX to have that revision in the car in a stock class. If we had a later production 2003 it might have come with a 201 or a 301 in it and it would not be legal for us to have a 101 revision in a stock class.[/quote]
The first example (a 2003 WRX ecu on a 2004 WRX), I 100% agree with you on as that combination wasn't available from the factory and thus is not legal. The second example I don't agree, though, as it is still the stock part for a "stock 2003 WRX". If anything else changed with the new ECU revision that year, then you would need to change that as well, but I don't see this any differently than a "same model year trim level conversion" which is explicitly allowed in Stock, as you are still left with a "stock 2003 WRX" when you are done.
[quote]So now you get into a "stock" flash. It is not a Subaru provided ECU revision for ANY car even if most/all of the settings are supposed to be the same as stock so it's not stock legal.[/QUOTE]
I had an argument posted here, but the more I re-read my post and thought about it the more I started to agree with you instead. For an AccessPort or EcuTek style reflash, anyway. Technically even a single bit in the image that isn't stock makes it "not stock" and thus not legal. It sucks for people who want to play with "Stage 1" maps on the street, but it just can't be 100% legal short of flash an actual stock Subaru map from that MY of that particular car back onto the ECU.
For an OpenECU style reflash (EcuFlash, Enginuity, etc.) this would, of course, be a moot point since you could flash your actual stock image back to the car without leaving any residual code from the reflash.
The first example (a 2003 WRX ecu on a 2004 WRX), I 100% agree with you on as that combination wasn't available from the factory and thus is not legal. The second example I don't agree, though, as it is still the stock part for a "stock 2003 WRX". If anything else changed with the new ECU revision that year, then you would need to change that as well, but I don't see this any differently than a "same model year trim level conversion" which is explicitly allowed in Stock, as you are still left with a "stock 2003 WRX" when you are done.
[quote]So now you get into a "stock" flash. It is not a Subaru provided ECU revision for ANY car even if most/all of the settings are supposed to be the same as stock so it's not stock legal.[/QUOTE]
I had an argument posted here, but the more I re-read my post and thought about it the more I started to agree with you instead. For an AccessPort or EcuTek style reflash, anyway. Technically even a single bit in the image that isn't stock makes it "not stock" and thus not legal. It sucks for people who want to play with "Stage 1" maps on the street, but it just can't be 100% legal short of flash an actual stock Subaru map from that MY of that particular car back onto the ECU.
For an OpenECU style reflash (EcuFlash, Enginuity, etc.) this would, of course, be a moot point since you could flash your actual stock image back to the car without leaving any residual code from the reflash.
| chimchimm5 | 11-05-2006 06:42 PM |
Oh well, this sucks. Looks like it's either a choice between a fun street car, or a dedicated autox car. Looks like I'll be running Modified but out of group. My friends are usually ST so I'd prefer to run with them. I'll only be running it for the fun of running, not for the competition.
ALK here I come!
ALK here I come!
| Scooby921 | 11-05-2006 07:00 PM |
I'm with Phil on this whole deal. Stock is stock...you are not allowed to touch anything aside from wheels, tires, air filter, exhaust, and a FSB. The rules are written such that unless they say you can, you can't. Nowhere does it say you can touch the ECU. So just having an AP to begin with is illegal for a stock class. Forget whether or not the "stock" map counts. You have engine management, you aren't legal.
The major part of Phil's arguement comes into play in ST classes, specifically STX and STU. The rules say that you can't touch boost settings. The way AP maps work, the realtime is just an adjustment of the base. The OTS Cobb and PDX maps are based off of a certain car's boost maps, not your's. For that reason they can be considered not stock. To further screw yourself, when you log settings off the ECU I believe the realtime settings are not what gets logged. If your basemap is not stock boost you are going to get DSQ'd.
I believe that is why Phil said that your STX or STU map needs to be your base map. To ensure that the base settings are the stock boost settings. Now that doesn't mean you can't have a stage 2 real-time map to make your daily driver fun. Actually, you don't need a stage 2 map to have a fun daily driver. Phil's car puts down more power on an STX tune than I do at stg 2! And to be honest, my stg 2 map only puts down 14hp more than my STX map.
So chim...you can't run stock if you already have an AP. Unless you plan on being competitive and trying for the win every event, the best advice is to mod your car however you want and use the rules to see where you fit.
The major part of Phil's arguement comes into play in ST classes, specifically STX and STU. The rules say that you can't touch boost settings. The way AP maps work, the realtime is just an adjustment of the base. The OTS Cobb and PDX maps are based off of a certain car's boost maps, not your's. For that reason they can be considered not stock. To further screw yourself, when you log settings off the ECU I believe the realtime settings are not what gets logged. If your basemap is not stock boost you are going to get DSQ'd.
I believe that is why Phil said that your STX or STU map needs to be your base map. To ensure that the base settings are the stock boost settings. Now that doesn't mean you can't have a stage 2 real-time map to make your daily driver fun. Actually, you don't need a stage 2 map to have a fun daily driver. Phil's car puts down more power on an STX tune than I do at stg 2! And to be honest, my stg 2 map only puts down 14hp more than my STX map.
So chim...you can't run stock if you already have an AP. Unless you plan on being competitive and trying for the win every event, the best advice is to mod your car however you want and use the rules to see where you fit.
| Butt Dyno | 11-05-2006 07:11 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby921;15877457]Actually, you don't need a stage 2 map to have a fun daily driver. Phil's car puts down more power on an STX tune than I do at stg 2! [/QUOTE]Well, if their STX map is like mine, it's unsuitable for the highway :)
| Scooby921 | 11-05-2006 07:16 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno;15877536]Well, if their STX map is like mine, it's unsuitable for the highway :)[/QUOTE]
:huh:
Tuned for power and not for safety? Could be like Wong tuned for 100 octane that isn't readily available?
:huh:
Tuned for power and not for safety? Could be like Wong tuned for 100 octane that isn't readily available?
| Butt Dyno | 11-05-2006 07:19 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby921;15877583]:huh:
Tuned for power and not for safety? Could be like Wong tuned for 100 octane that isn't readily available?[/QUOTE]
Tuned for power and not for gears 4 and 5.
Bleh, at least I have 5-6 months to get my car all properly legal and such.
Tuned for power and not for safety? Could be like Wong tuned for 100 octane that isn't readily available?[/QUOTE]
Tuned for power and not for gears 4 and 5.
Bleh, at least I have 5-6 months to get my car all properly legal and such.
| jcroy66 | 11-05-2006 09:07 PM |
Well, I will say that I learned pretty quickly after we did the exhaust (downpipe/uppipe and a muffler even) to go "easy" on the highway. My traditional lead foot driving was likely to cause me permanent hearing loss with a full exhaust. Once I learned to keep it just on this edge of being on boost, my gas mileage improved (as did my hearing). But I don't recall highway driving getting any worse after Doug tuned it. Highway driving certainly became more FUN (:devil:), but as long as I wasn't continuously punching it, my gas mileage actually improved over stock.
| PhilC | 11-05-2006 09:38 PM |
First, let's be clear it's Jen's car and not mine. The truck and the Civic beater are mine, even though the Civic is in Jen's name. :)
Up until mid-July when we bought the Civic Jen daily drove the WRX on the ECUTek tune that Doug did for us for over a year, near 15,000 miles. Having Sunoco 94 available just about anywhere in the state helps a lot and we always make sure to bring enough 94 to last a weekend with us wherever we go. I wouldn't want to try our map on 91 or even 92 octane as sold in most of the country. But then again our car ran like total crap and threw a CEL when we drove it to Topeka two years ago and were forced to use the **** those outside of our area call gas and that was on the stock ECU. Those who know Jen should be well aware that she doesn't have a gentle right foot, in fact the good old Civic DX that she's been driving for the last few months has resulted in almost daily complaints about the power. :)
Our STX tune actually gets better gas mileage than the stock one did when we daily drive it (if you keep your foot out of it), which is basically what you'd expect considering what was done to the fuel curves. I've never taken it to the top of fourth on the highway to see but for any normal driving up to 90 MPH or so it's mostly as smooth as stock. It's certainly not a case of "to have a fun car for the street" we have to have a "stage 2" map.
Base versus real-time is an argument that can go on forever, and actually has since the ability to flash a real-time map was introduced. It's been covered before and I won't bother to cover it again. I doubt that I'll ever file a protest, that's not the way I am, but if someone were to file a protest at a National event I was at I would love the chance to help write it so that the questions could actually be answered for good.
Let's be honest here. There are maybe 10 WRXs in STX in the entire country that I'm actually concerned about, and most of us have a pretty darn good idea of exactly what each other is doing (barring suspension tuning where we're each trying something a bit different I think). I'd like to hope that my driving is getting good enough that our car is counted amongst those but this past year didn't necessarily show that. If you aren't one of the cars trying to compete at that level then just race in the class your mods put you in. If\when you decide to get serious about this you'll pick and build a car to the limits of the class and you'll never again bitch and moan about how your common modification bumps you to modified class.
Up until mid-July when we bought the Civic Jen daily drove the WRX on the ECUTek tune that Doug did for us for over a year, near 15,000 miles. Having Sunoco 94 available just about anywhere in the state helps a lot and we always make sure to bring enough 94 to last a weekend with us wherever we go. I wouldn't want to try our map on 91 or even 92 octane as sold in most of the country. But then again our car ran like total crap and threw a CEL when we drove it to Topeka two years ago and were forced to use the **** those outside of our area call gas and that was on the stock ECU. Those who know Jen should be well aware that she doesn't have a gentle right foot, in fact the good old Civic DX that she's been driving for the last few months has resulted in almost daily complaints about the power. :)
Our STX tune actually gets better gas mileage than the stock one did when we daily drive it (if you keep your foot out of it), which is basically what you'd expect considering what was done to the fuel curves. I've never taken it to the top of fourth on the highway to see but for any normal driving up to 90 MPH or so it's mostly as smooth as stock. It's certainly not a case of "to have a fun car for the street" we have to have a "stage 2" map.
Base versus real-time is an argument that can go on forever, and actually has since the ability to flash a real-time map was introduced. It's been covered before and I won't bother to cover it again. I doubt that I'll ever file a protest, that's not the way I am, but if someone were to file a protest at a National event I was at I would love the chance to help write it so that the questions could actually be answered for good.
Let's be honest here. There are maybe 10 WRXs in STX in the entire country that I'm actually concerned about, and most of us have a pretty darn good idea of exactly what each other is doing (barring suspension tuning where we're each trying something a bit different I think). I'd like to hope that my driving is getting good enough that our car is counted amongst those but this past year didn't necessarily show that. If you aren't one of the cars trying to compete at that level then just race in the class your mods put you in. If\when you decide to get serious about this you'll pick and build a car to the limits of the class and you'll never again bitch and moan about how your common modification bumps you to modified class.
| sachilles | 11-06-2006 10:14 AM |
[QUOTE=PhilC;15879034]First, let's be clear it's Jen's car and not mine. The
Let's be honest here. There are maybe 10 WRXs in STX in the entire country that I'm actually concerned about, and most of us have a pretty darn good idea of exactly what each other is doing (barring suspension tuning where we're each trying something a bit different I think). I'd like to hope that my driving is getting good enough that our car is counted amongst those but this past year didn't necessarily show that. If you aren't one of the cars trying to compete at that level then just race in the class your mods put you in. If\when you decide to get serious about this you'll pick and build a car to the limits of the class and you'll never again bitch and moan about how your common modification bumps you to modified class.[/QUOTE]
I agree with much of this here.
Human nature doesn't always allow you to do it though. Whether they admit it or not, every person that goes to an autocross secretly hopes they'll at least win their class.
Every time you don't win, the car gets blamed(even though the driver is the cause 99% of the time). So as you wallow in your misery, you wonder what you can do for the next event to be better. Often times it comes down to a part that you buy. You eagerly install it and wait for the next event where you are sure you'll mop up the competition......and that new part lets you down:lol:
Just about everyone thinks like that. It's silly, but that is life.
I think as far as autocross goes, the 2 liter wrx, is ideal for stx. The other classes it fits into, in general has a tougher battle in front of it. So I think a lot of people want to maximize what they can do in stx....and the map seems like the biggest difference.
I also think its cheaper to run a competitive(maybe not nationally) wrx in STX than in the stock class or mod. If for no other reason than tires.That is part of the reason why the st classes exist. Once you get national level desires, your budget tends to increase no matter what class.
I would love to see some clarification on ecu mods. Perhaps altering the rules that an stx car with ecu mods bumps it to stu.
As I think in general, at the local events, that ecu is about the only factor that bumps folks out of stx. Those folks might not do as well in STU, but they'll do a bit better than in SM. Its mostly about subie's that we are talking about, so they'll get bumped into a class that contains a lot of the same make anyway.
They'll never make the rule like that, but I can dream.
<-----------not nationally competitive, so take it with a grain of salt.
Let's be honest here. There are maybe 10 WRXs in STX in the entire country that I'm actually concerned about, and most of us have a pretty darn good idea of exactly what each other is doing (barring suspension tuning where we're each trying something a bit different I think). I'd like to hope that my driving is getting good enough that our car is counted amongst those but this past year didn't necessarily show that. If you aren't one of the cars trying to compete at that level then just race in the class your mods put you in. If\when you decide to get serious about this you'll pick and build a car to the limits of the class and you'll never again bitch and moan about how your common modification bumps you to modified class.[/QUOTE]
I agree with much of this here.
Human nature doesn't always allow you to do it though. Whether they admit it or not, every person that goes to an autocross secretly hopes they'll at least win their class.
Every time you don't win, the car gets blamed(even though the driver is the cause 99% of the time). So as you wallow in your misery, you wonder what you can do for the next event to be better. Often times it comes down to a part that you buy. You eagerly install it and wait for the next event where you are sure you'll mop up the competition......and that new part lets you down:lol:
Just about everyone thinks like that. It's silly, but that is life.
I think as far as autocross goes, the 2 liter wrx, is ideal for stx. The other classes it fits into, in general has a tougher battle in front of it. So I think a lot of people want to maximize what they can do in stx....and the map seems like the biggest difference.
I also think its cheaper to run a competitive(maybe not nationally) wrx in STX than in the stock class or mod. If for no other reason than tires.That is part of the reason why the st classes exist. Once you get national level desires, your budget tends to increase no matter what class.
I would love to see some clarification on ecu mods. Perhaps altering the rules that an stx car with ecu mods bumps it to stu.
As I think in general, at the local events, that ecu is about the only factor that bumps folks out of stx. Those folks might not do as well in STU, but they'll do a bit better than in SM. Its mostly about subie's that we are talking about, so they'll get bumped into a class that contains a lot of the same make anyway.
They'll never make the rule like that, but I can dream.
<-----------not nationally competitive, so take it with a grain of salt.
| Scooby921 | 11-06-2006 11:23 AM |
[QUOTE=sachilles;15883120]I agree with much of this here.
Human nature doesn't always allow you to do it though. Whether they admit it or not, every person that goes to an autocross secretly hopes they'll at least win their class.
Every time you don't win, the car gets blamed(even though the driver is the cause 99% of the time). So as you wallow in your misery, you wonder what you can do for the next event to be better. Often times it comes down to a part that you buy. You eagerly install it and wait for the next event where you are sure you'll mop up the competition......and that new part lets you down:lol: [/QUOTE]
Story of my year! The difference is that I knew I didn't have a chance at winning. With Billy B and J-dub in the region and Greg McCance stopping by on occasion I was automatically relegated to 3rd or 4th. My only hope was to close the gap to first from week to week, and yes those new parts did let me down. Crap suspension replaced with cheap suspension = no improvement...duh! The highlight of my year was being competitive with Jen, Phil, and Jason in the rain in Oscoda! I will openly admit that I was far outclassed by Greg and Billy in that wonderful monsoon of an afternoon.
Anyway, I think I'm going the hardcore route next year. Power tuned STX map and some kind of a realtime map to make it highway friendly on more affordable gas. Lucky me...I have 100 octane available, but at $6 a gallon :eek: !
Phil, if you want to setup a protest that actually gets the rules defined I'm in for it next year. Pick one of the ProSolo's or Nat'l Tours and protest me for using an AP, regardless of where I finish. I'm pretty sure we can get Greg on board as well. Between the 3 of us (Jen doesn't count because you two share money ;) ) I would think we can split the protest and tear-down fees in the interest of defining rules. We just need to get together and write up the protest form before hand so its well defined. Though whatever comes of it won't take effect until the following year. Anyone else in the midwest want in on the deal? Can we get in trouble for this? Would it count as wasting officials' time?
Human nature doesn't always allow you to do it though. Whether they admit it or not, every person that goes to an autocross secretly hopes they'll at least win their class.
Every time you don't win, the car gets blamed(even though the driver is the cause 99% of the time). So as you wallow in your misery, you wonder what you can do for the next event to be better. Often times it comes down to a part that you buy. You eagerly install it and wait for the next event where you are sure you'll mop up the competition......and that new part lets you down:lol: [/QUOTE]
Story of my year! The difference is that I knew I didn't have a chance at winning. With Billy B and J-dub in the region and Greg McCance stopping by on occasion I was automatically relegated to 3rd or 4th. My only hope was to close the gap to first from week to week, and yes those new parts did let me down. Crap suspension replaced with cheap suspension = no improvement...duh! The highlight of my year was being competitive with Jen, Phil, and Jason in the rain in Oscoda! I will openly admit that I was far outclassed by Greg and Billy in that wonderful monsoon of an afternoon.
Anyway, I think I'm going the hardcore route next year. Power tuned STX map and some kind of a realtime map to make it highway friendly on more affordable gas. Lucky me...I have 100 octane available, but at $6 a gallon :eek: !
Phil, if you want to setup a protest that actually gets the rules defined I'm in for it next year. Pick one of the ProSolo's or Nat'l Tours and protest me for using an AP, regardless of where I finish. I'm pretty sure we can get Greg on board as well. Between the 3 of us (Jen doesn't count because you two share money ;) ) I would think we can split the protest and tear-down fees in the interest of defining rules. We just need to get together and write up the protest form before hand so its well defined. Though whatever comes of it won't take effect until the following year. Anyone else in the midwest want in on the deal? Can we get in trouble for this? Would it count as wasting officials' time?
| jcroy66 | 11-06-2006 11:57 AM |
sachilles, there is no difference between STX and STU, as far as ECU allowances go. They have the exact same rules. So if a WRX owner had a non-stock-boost map that bumped them out of STX, it would bump them into ESP, not into STU.
Brad, in order to create a precedent, the protest would need to happen at a National Tour, not a ProSolo, and the decision would need to be appealed to the National Appeals committe (which is the SEB). As for whether it would be viewed as wasting their time, I think I've read in the past that they recommend writing the SEB and asking for a formal clarification instead of using the protest/appeals process. But I'm not sure. Are you likely to see Marcus in this off-season (maybe a Detroit Region awards banquet?) to ask him? Otherwise, I can email Andy Hollis and ask.
Brad, in order to create a precedent, the protest would need to happen at a National Tour, not a ProSolo, and the decision would need to be appealed to the National Appeals committe (which is the SEB). As for whether it would be viewed as wasting their time, I think I've read in the past that they recommend writing the SEB and asking for a formal clarification instead of using the protest/appeals process. But I'm not sure. Are you likely to see Marcus in this off-season (maybe a Detroit Region awards banquet?) to ask him? Otherwise, I can email Andy Hollis and ask.
| sachilles | 11-06-2006 12:18 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;15884426]sachilles, there is no difference between STX and STU, as far as ECU allowances go. They have the exact same rules. So if a WRX owner had a non-stock-boost map that bumped them out of STX, it would bump them into ESP, not into STU.
[/QUOTE]
I know that.
The big difference between stx and stu is displacement. I'm suggesting rather than bumping the car to esp, to bump it stu instead if the only thing from keeping the car in stx is the ECU.
Specific bumping for this one modification.
As I envision it it is in character with the way sts, stx and stu are setup.
I'm not suggesting that the Sti's in STU would be given the ability to use an AP.
Basically, any car that normally qualifies as stx, that modifies the ecu would be bumped into stu.
any car that qualifies in sts that modifies the ecu would bump into stx.....something like that. This is all purely theoretical.
I think ecu modification is popular enough with all vehicles out there, that the scca needs to provide for it a little better within the street touring classes.
I think bumping them into esp, is just a touch too far.
So if you took a nationally competitive stx wrx, allow them to run an AP without restriction, do you think they would be competitve in stu? Perhaps more so than in esp.
[/QUOTE]
I know that.
The big difference between stx and stu is displacement. I'm suggesting rather than bumping the car to esp, to bump it stu instead if the only thing from keeping the car in stx is the ECU.
Specific bumping for this one modification.
As I envision it it is in character with the way sts, stx and stu are setup.
I'm not suggesting that the Sti's in STU would be given the ability to use an AP.
Basically, any car that normally qualifies as stx, that modifies the ecu would be bumped into stu.
any car that qualifies in sts that modifies the ecu would bump into stx.....something like that. This is all purely theoretical.
I think ecu modification is popular enough with all vehicles out there, that the scca needs to provide for it a little better within the street touring classes.
I think bumping them into esp, is just a touch too far.
So if you took a nationally competitive stx wrx, allow them to run an AP without restriction, do you think they would be competitve in stu? Perhaps more so than in esp.
| Scooby921 | 11-06-2006 12:19 PM |
If I run into Marcus it would be at the banquet, but that isn't for another couple months. Its pretty likely that I'd forget by then anyway. You might be better off emailing Andy.
| jamesohoh7 | 11-06-2006 05:32 PM |
Ap: lower base vs. higher realtime maps == no no, IIRC
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A note about the AP and base vs. realtime maps:
I asked Cobb a -long- time ago (when they first released AP's) about running a 'lower-stage' base map and a 'higher-stage' realtime map and was specifically warned NOT to do this. Always run a base-map that's as 'high' as the highest realtime version you are likely to run. You can run a lower realtime map over a high base map, but not vice-versa. Technically, you -can- do it, but what I mean is to say that it is not advised by Cobb (or at least, that was their position a couple of years ago).
So, the postulated situation a few posts up about running an STX base for racing legality and running your 'fun' Stage2 map for daily driving would not be advised.
I can't tell you exactly why they told me this, just relaying the info. My guess is that there's specific code in a base-map that deals with fuel/timing/'something' that is not done in a realtime map... and so running more boost via a realtime map than the basemap is designed to handle == 'teh very bad'.
I asked Cobb a -long- time ago (when they first released AP's) about running a 'lower-stage' base map and a 'higher-stage' realtime map and was specifically warned NOT to do this. Always run a base-map that's as 'high' as the highest realtime version you are likely to run. You can run a lower realtime map over a high base map, but not vice-versa. Technically, you -can- do it, but what I mean is to say that it is not advised by Cobb (or at least, that was their position a couple of years ago).
So, the postulated situation a few posts up about running an STX base for racing legality and running your 'fun' Stage2 map for daily driving would not be advised.
I can't tell you exactly why they told me this, just relaying the info. My guess is that there's specific code in a base-map that deals with fuel/timing/'something' that is not done in a realtime map... and so running more boost via a realtime map than the basemap is designed to handle == 'teh very bad'.
| Scooby921 | 11-07-2006 08:26 AM |
[QUOTE=jamesohoh7;15889432]A note about the AP and base vs. realtime maps:
I asked Cobb a -long- time ago (when they first released AP's) about running a 'lower-stage' base map and a 'higher-stage' realtime map and was specifically warned NOT to do this. Always run a base-map that's as 'high' as the highest realtime version you are likely to run. You can run a lower realtime map over a high base map, but not vice-versa. Technically, you -can- do it, but what I mean is to say that it is not advised by Cobb (or at least, that was their position a couple of years ago).
So, the postulated situation a few posts up about running an STX base for racing legality and running your 'fun' Stage2 map for daily driving would not be advised.
I can't tell you exactly why they told me this, just relaying the info. My guess is that there's specific code in a base-map that deals with fuel/timing/'something' that is not done in a realtime map... and so running more boost via a realtime map than the basemap is designed to handle == 'teh very bad'.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so I guess I'm going to go Ecutek or OpenECU and run only my STX map. That also means I don't get to tune for high power. I still have to keep it safe for a daily driver :( .
Anyone interested in an AP for an '05 WRX :p ?
I asked Cobb a -long- time ago (when they first released AP's) about running a 'lower-stage' base map and a 'higher-stage' realtime map and was specifically warned NOT to do this. Always run a base-map that's as 'high' as the highest realtime version you are likely to run. You can run a lower realtime map over a high base map, but not vice-versa. Technically, you -can- do it, but what I mean is to say that it is not advised by Cobb (or at least, that was their position a couple of years ago).
So, the postulated situation a few posts up about running an STX base for racing legality and running your 'fun' Stage2 map for daily driving would not be advised.
I can't tell you exactly why they told me this, just relaying the info. My guess is that there's specific code in a base-map that deals with fuel/timing/'something' that is not done in a realtime map... and so running more boost via a realtime map than the basemap is designed to handle == 'teh very bad'.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so I guess I'm going to go Ecutek or OpenECU and run only my STX map. That also means I don't get to tune for high power. I still have to keep it safe for a daily driver :( .
Anyone interested in an AP for an '05 WRX :p ?
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