| chairmandave | 02-19-2005 11:28 PM |
Crash.net: Loeb at Subaru in 2006?
�
�
From crash.net:
Ok, so it may be a bit pre-mature to start talking about who goes where in 2006, especially as it is only February, and we are only two rounds into this years championship, but its an intriguing thought, especially as both Citroen and Peugeot will be pulling out, leaving four top drivers looking for a home.
Yeah folks four tops drivers - Sebastien Loeb, Francois Duval, Markko Martin and Marcus Gronholm - all-homeless, out on the streets, without a penny to rub together [yeah right!]. All together now: boo-hoo, boo-hoo.
So who goes where in 2006?
Sebastien Loeb is going to be hot property - no doubt about it - and while he would be an asset to any team, only Ford and Subaru will have a chance of signing the Frenchman. Can't see him wanting to drive a Skoda can you?
Looking at the form books though, you would have to say Subaru would be his chief target, although the chance to help develop the Focus into a winner might just be the temptation he needs. However it is unlikely Ford will be able to afford him, and so Subaru would appear to be the logical move. Petter Solberg and Loeb would make a formidable line-up, one that would no doubt give all the other team bosses nightmares - and no doubt team boss, David Lapworth, a few wet dreams!
But if he went to Subaru - what would happen to Stephane Sarrazin and Chris Atkinson? Well Subaru could bin whoever doesn't quite cut the mustard, and then run a third car for whoever delivers during 2005. Besides if all the teams don't run a third car next year, there's only going to be Subaru, Ford, Skoda and Mitsubishi. Wonder who's going to score points? Could be tough with just 8 works drivers and points for the top 8...
But that's another matter, another time.
So with Subaru tied up - yeah let's get back to it - Markko Martin would be left with just Ford, and having been with the team in 2002, 2003 and 2004, the Estonian could get re-acclimatised quickly and help Toni Gardemeister - who has thus far impressed and will no doubt continue to - to take the fight to Subaru.
As for Marcus Gronholm, left only with Mitsubishi or Skoda, the Finn would see the writing on the wall, and decide enough is enough, and like was rumoured in 2004, quit the sport, and who knows, go off and try his luck on the Dakar, just like Colin McRae!
Francois Duval would end up with Mitsubishi, who will now need two 'all-rounders' having developed the Lancer into a competitive beast - and with Harri Rovanpera staying on, Gilles Panizzi and Gigi Galli will either share a third Lancer or be shown the door.
Skoda - if they're still around - and still honestly think that they might achieve something, will grab whoever's left. So maybe Freddy Loix will make a re-appearance or DTM champ Mattias Ekstrom will decide he'd prefer driving around forests to driving around, and around, and around.
Of course its all speculation and anything could happen. PSA might even decide not to withdraw, in which case, all bets are off. And Suzuki might step up from the 'juniors' to the seniors.
First though let's get back and enjoy 2004: Mexico - next stop.
Ok, so it may be a bit pre-mature to start talking about who goes where in 2006, especially as it is only February, and we are only two rounds into this years championship, but its an intriguing thought, especially as both Citroen and Peugeot will be pulling out, leaving four top drivers looking for a home.
Yeah folks four tops drivers - Sebastien Loeb, Francois Duval, Markko Martin and Marcus Gronholm - all-homeless, out on the streets, without a penny to rub together [yeah right!]. All together now: boo-hoo, boo-hoo.
So who goes where in 2006?
Sebastien Loeb is going to be hot property - no doubt about it - and while he would be an asset to any team, only Ford and Subaru will have a chance of signing the Frenchman. Can't see him wanting to drive a Skoda can you?
Looking at the form books though, you would have to say Subaru would be his chief target, although the chance to help develop the Focus into a winner might just be the temptation he needs. However it is unlikely Ford will be able to afford him, and so Subaru would appear to be the logical move. Petter Solberg and Loeb would make a formidable line-up, one that would no doubt give all the other team bosses nightmares - and no doubt team boss, David Lapworth, a few wet dreams!
But if he went to Subaru - what would happen to Stephane Sarrazin and Chris Atkinson? Well Subaru could bin whoever doesn't quite cut the mustard, and then run a third car for whoever delivers during 2005. Besides if all the teams don't run a third car next year, there's only going to be Subaru, Ford, Skoda and Mitsubishi. Wonder who's going to score points? Could be tough with just 8 works drivers and points for the top 8...
But that's another matter, another time.
So with Subaru tied up - yeah let's get back to it - Markko Martin would be left with just Ford, and having been with the team in 2002, 2003 and 2004, the Estonian could get re-acclimatised quickly and help Toni Gardemeister - who has thus far impressed and will no doubt continue to - to take the fight to Subaru.
As for Marcus Gronholm, left only with Mitsubishi or Skoda, the Finn would see the writing on the wall, and decide enough is enough, and like was rumoured in 2004, quit the sport, and who knows, go off and try his luck on the Dakar, just like Colin McRae!
Francois Duval would end up with Mitsubishi, who will now need two 'all-rounders' having developed the Lancer into a competitive beast - and with Harri Rovanpera staying on, Gilles Panizzi and Gigi Galli will either share a third Lancer or be shown the door.
Skoda - if they're still around - and still honestly think that they might achieve something, will grab whoever's left. So maybe Freddy Loix will make a re-appearance or DTM champ Mattias Ekstrom will decide he'd prefer driving around forests to driving around, and around, and around.
Of course its all speculation and anything could happen. PSA might even decide not to withdraw, in which case, all bets are off. And Suzuki might step up from the 'juniors' to the seniors.
First though let's get back and enjoy 2004: Mexico - next stop.
| greg donovan | 02-20-2005 01:05 AM |
i think PSA leaving is a bluff. i dont trust the french.
| WRXedUSA | 02-20-2005 03:09 AM |
Marcus I think will retire.
Skoda is on a roll. Expect them to be around, with Mattias as the choice gun.
I can imagine Harri getting replaced by Seb, but damn, wasI impressed by Gigi.
Atkinson and Sarrazin are Subaru lifers.
Freddy Armin and Harri better think about retiring.
Skoda is on a roll. Expect them to be around, with Mattias as the choice gun.
I can imagine Harri getting replaced by Seb, but damn, wasI impressed by Gigi.
Atkinson and Sarrazin are Subaru lifers.
Freddy Armin and Harri better think about retiring.
| shoracer | 02-20-2005 03:58 AM |
If Loeb goes to Subaru I may have to trade in the car for the New Stang, I hate Loeb.
I hope he puts another hole in the oil pan in Mexico this year.
I hope he puts another hole in the oil pan in Mexico this year.
| bemani | 02-20-2005 04:09 AM |
Probably depending on if Subaru wants another manufacturer's championship and if they think Atkinson and Sarrazin can help them do it.
Loeb's not going to be cheap. I doubt it. How much do they pay Petter anyway?
Loeb's not going to be cheap. I doubt it. How much do they pay Petter anyway?
| gtguy | 02-20-2005 08:03 AM |
[QUOTE=greg donovan]i think PSA leaving is a bluff. i dont trust the french.[/QUOTE]
That's an odd statement. What would they have to gain by making the announcement? Rallying is very expensive, and no longer translates to the sales figures that it used to, now that most of Europe has gone diesel crazy, thanks to high gas prices. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" isn't applicable any longer, if it ever was. I know that last year in France, I was one of only three Peugeot 307s I saw, and all were the wagon.
Frankly, the question for ANY manufaturer is "Why remain in the WRC?" Ford's future is very uncertain. They just haven't made any announcements yet. If PSA and Ford go out, does anyone think that Subaru is going to find joy in beating up on Skoda, Mitsubishi and some independents driving purchased works cars? No way.
Kevin
That's an odd statement. What would they have to gain by making the announcement? Rallying is very expensive, and no longer translates to the sales figures that it used to, now that most of Europe has gone diesel crazy, thanks to high gas prices. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" isn't applicable any longer, if it ever was. I know that last year in France, I was one of only three Peugeot 307s I saw, and all were the wagon.
Frankly, the question for ANY manufaturer is "Why remain in the WRC?" Ford's future is very uncertain. They just haven't made any announcements yet. If PSA and Ford go out, does anyone think that Subaru is going to find joy in beating up on Skoda, Mitsubishi and some independents driving purchased works cars? No way.
Kevin
| WRXMaster | 02-20-2005 09:04 AM |
[QUOTE=gtguy]That's an odd statement. What would they have to gain by making the announcement? Rallying is very expensive, and no longer translates to the sales figures that it used to, now that most of Europe has gone diesel crazy, thanks to high gas prices. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" isn't applicable any longer, if it ever was. I know that last year in France, I was one of only three Peugeot 307s I saw, and all were the wagon.
Frankly, the question for ANY manufaturer is "Why remain in the WRC?" Ford's future is very uncertain. They just haven't made any announcements yet. If PSA and Ford go out, does anyone think that Subaru is going to find joy in beating up on Skoda, Mitsubishi and some independents driving purchased works cars? No way.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
So your saying it would be a better investment to do another form of motorsport? Please explain how another motorsport has better and cheaper exposure then wrc?
BTW Ford has signed up for 4 seasons
Frankly, the question for ANY manufaturer is "Why remain in the WRC?" Ford's future is very uncertain. They just haven't made any announcements yet. If PSA and Ford go out, does anyone think that Subaru is going to find joy in beating up on Skoda, Mitsubishi and some independents driving purchased works cars? No way.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
So your saying it would be a better investment to do another form of motorsport? Please explain how another motorsport has better and cheaper exposure then wrc?
BTW Ford has signed up for 4 seasons
| Mopho | 02-20-2005 09:41 AM |
WRXMaster, you beat me to it :lol:
Yes, Ford signed up through 2008, the announcement was made in November
[QUOTE]"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" isn't applicable any longer, if it ever was. I know that last year in France, I was one of only three Peugeot 307s I saw, and all were the wagon.
[/QUOTE]
"Win on Sunday sell on Monday" went away a long time ago in the top level of racing. Look at NASCAR, F1, etc., they are not competing with anything remotely close to what the general public would buy, yet manufacturers still participate in them for marketing purposes. Formula One Racing has the largest television viewing audience in the world, there are 40 billion viewers annually. You have to consider that the bigger audience is watching the rally on TV and not at the rally.
Nowadays it is as much about brand marketing as selling an actual model of car. Getting the company name exposure is the most important thing.
I only saw four Subarus at the Rallye Catalunia, but I saw thousands of people wearing "Subaru Blue" I also saw lots of people in Citroen, Peugeot, Ford, etc., colors as well.
Reading through Greg's prejudiced comment about the French, I think he means that there is a pretty good possibility that Peugeot and Citroen might reconsider by the end of the year, or at least one of them might stay on board depending on how their year goes in both the WRC and in car sales. Their announcement was a bit open ended.
As long as Petter is on board with Subaru, I don't see any need for them to hire Loeb. Petters popularity brings more exposure to Subaru than winning the championship would. Subaru should continue to invest in guys that will be competitive in the future- IMO
Yes, Ford signed up through 2008, the announcement was made in November
[QUOTE]"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" isn't applicable any longer, if it ever was. I know that last year in France, I was one of only three Peugeot 307s I saw, and all were the wagon.
[/QUOTE]
"Win on Sunday sell on Monday" went away a long time ago in the top level of racing. Look at NASCAR, F1, etc., they are not competing with anything remotely close to what the general public would buy, yet manufacturers still participate in them for marketing purposes. Formula One Racing has the largest television viewing audience in the world, there are 40 billion viewers annually. You have to consider that the bigger audience is watching the rally on TV and not at the rally.
Nowadays it is as much about brand marketing as selling an actual model of car. Getting the company name exposure is the most important thing.
I only saw four Subarus at the Rallye Catalunia, but I saw thousands of people wearing "Subaru Blue" I also saw lots of people in Citroen, Peugeot, Ford, etc., colors as well.
Reading through Greg's prejudiced comment about the French, I think he means that there is a pretty good possibility that Peugeot and Citroen might reconsider by the end of the year, or at least one of them might stay on board depending on how their year goes in both the WRC and in car sales. Their announcement was a bit open ended.
As long as Petter is on board with Subaru, I don't see any need for them to hire Loeb. Petters popularity brings more exposure to Subaru than winning the championship would. Subaru should continue to invest in guys that will be competitive in the future- IMO
| gargleblaster | 02-20-2005 12:28 PM |
Okay - adding to the French conspiracy theory for a moment - with Pug's Corrado retiring after Sweden and the reigning driver champion over at Citroen, the choice for the surviving team is obvious. Markus would retire... and Marko would go to Citroen to join Loeb? That would be a mighty team...
| gtguy | 02-20-2005 01:27 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]So your saying it would be a better investment to do another form of motorsport? Please explain how another motorsport has better and cheaper exposure then wrc?
BTW Ford has signed up for 4 seasons[/QUOTE]
I wasn't aware that Ford had signed up until 2008. Last I heard they were still on the fence with future involvement.
What I'm saying is that ultimately, I don't know if motorsports investment has ANY value for a manufacturer, up to and including Ferrari. How many U.S. market Ferrari purchasers know of the F1 team and its exploits? Precious few, even though they are drinking from the font of Ferrari's motorsports heritage.
I think that Peugeot/Citroen has figured this out, which is why they're pulling out. Despite the FIA's cost cutting efforts, fielding a top-class WRC team is expensive as heck, for what value? Peugeot/Citroen might well, pending winning another title and having a great season, decide to stay. I'd be very surprised if that happened, but anything's possible. But look at how quickly Ford jettisoned the F1 side of things with Jaguar, and F1 is king, as motorsports exposure goes.
Manufacturers participate in auto racing with exposure in mind, one that will resonate with car buyers when they are shopping for a vehicle. Given that gas prices have made diesel cars such an attractive option in Europe, and the truck love in other markets, the question still stands: Where is the value? Don't get me wrong; I love WRC, and have seasons on DVD dating back to 1995. But from a business proposition, it isn't hard to see a manufacturer deciding that the activity is too spendy for them, based on what they get in return.
Kevin
BTW Ford has signed up for 4 seasons[/QUOTE]
I wasn't aware that Ford had signed up until 2008. Last I heard they were still on the fence with future involvement.
What I'm saying is that ultimately, I don't know if motorsports investment has ANY value for a manufacturer, up to and including Ferrari. How many U.S. market Ferrari purchasers know of the F1 team and its exploits? Precious few, even though they are drinking from the font of Ferrari's motorsports heritage.
I think that Peugeot/Citroen has figured this out, which is why they're pulling out. Despite the FIA's cost cutting efforts, fielding a top-class WRC team is expensive as heck, for what value? Peugeot/Citroen might well, pending winning another title and having a great season, decide to stay. I'd be very surprised if that happened, but anything's possible. But look at how quickly Ford jettisoned the F1 side of things with Jaguar, and F1 is king, as motorsports exposure goes.
Manufacturers participate in auto racing with exposure in mind, one that will resonate with car buyers when they are shopping for a vehicle. Given that gas prices have made diesel cars such an attractive option in Europe, and the truck love in other markets, the question still stands: Where is the value? Don't get me wrong; I love WRC, and have seasons on DVD dating back to 1995. But from a business proposition, it isn't hard to see a manufacturer deciding that the activity is too spendy for them, based on what they get in return.
Kevin
| Big Ern | 02-20-2005 01:49 PM |
[QUOTE=gtguy] have seasons on DVD dating back to 1995.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
Where did you get these? I have been looking for the ~ 12 hour year end replays the Speed used to do on WRC on DVD.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
Where did you get these? I have been looking for the ~ 12 hour year end replays the Speed used to do on WRC on DVD.
| Rallycarperson | 02-20-2005 02:35 PM |
I have the whole 90's on video. Stopped the video, and went to collecting "World Rallying" books.
Not sure about now, but before Duke Video carried them.
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
Not sure about now, but before Duke Video carried them.
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| mykrrrr | 02-20-2005 04:05 PM |
It's been stated before that Citroen & Peugeot have done what they set out to do which was win both drivers and constructors championships. PSA feels they can move on to something else.
I'd say Loeb goes to Subaru, Martin back to FMC, Duval to Mitsu or Skoda and Gronholm to ??? Their salaries will probably take a bit of a hit w/o Peugeot & Citroen as potential homes anymore. Hopefully they don't price themselves out of the game like McRae did.
-mykr.
I'd say Loeb goes to Subaru, Martin back to FMC, Duval to Mitsu or Skoda and Gronholm to ??? Their salaries will probably take a bit of a hit w/o Peugeot & Citroen as potential homes anymore. Hopefully they don't price themselves out of the game like McRae did.
-mykr.
| WagonMonster | 02-20-2005 05:47 PM |
As far as Race Fans buying their favorite driver's car, I ask you this:
How many F1 fans have a Ferrari?
How many NASCAR fans own an Intrepid?
At least in Rally, there are 2 cars that at least make some lip service to a car you can actually buy (Subaru & Mitsu.) It's not about racing something people are going to buy, it's all about name recognition.
How many F1 fans have a Ferrari?
How many NASCAR fans own an Intrepid?
At least in Rally, there are 2 cars that at least make some lip service to a car you can actually buy (Subaru & Mitsu.) It's not about racing something people are going to buy, it's all about name recognition.
| speedyHAM | 02-20-2005 06:46 PM |
The reason Enzo Ferrari started making road cars was to afford his racing car business, I don't see that things at Ferrari have changed very much after Enzo passed away.
| baileypicks24 | 02-20-2005 07:13 PM |
[QUOTE=WagonMonster]As far as Race Fans buying their favorite driver's car, I ask you this:
How many F1 fans have a Ferrari?
How many NASCAR fans own an Intrepid?
[/QUOTE]
Sure, but how many NASCAR fans buy the same brand TRUCK as their favorite driver?? Living in the south, its pretty obvious Earnhardt fans drive Chevys...etc..
How many F1 fans have a Ferrari?
How many NASCAR fans own an Intrepid?
[/QUOTE]
Sure, but how many NASCAR fans buy the same brand TRUCK as their favorite driver?? Living in the south, its pretty obvious Earnhardt fans drive Chevys...etc..
| Mopho | 02-20-2005 07:16 PM |
[QUOTE=gtguy]
What I'm saying is that ultimately, I don't know if motorsports investment has ANY value for a manufacturer, up to and including Ferrari. [/QUOTE]
So they do it for their health then :rolleyes:
Apparently you don't realize how much the Ferrari name/logo is worth in merchandising alone, it's in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
[QUOTE]How many U.S. market Ferrari purchasers know of the F1 team and its exploits?[/QUOTE]
I'd say most of them
Besides, F1 and WRC are European sports, they are not directly marketing to Americans.
[QUOTE]I think that Peugeot/Citroen has figured this out, which is why they're pulling out. [/QUOTE]
Not really, it because business is down overall and they blew their wad. It is pretty clear when you go to a European WRC event how much more PSA is spending over the other teams.
[QUOTE] But look at how quickly Ford jettisoned the F1 side of things with Jaguar, and F1 is king, as motorsports exposure goes.[/QUOTE]
Yes but it costs way more to participate in F1 and business was down, so Ford did not want to spend the money to keep up with Ferrari, et al
[QUOTE]Manufacturers participate in auto racing with exposure in mind, one that will resonate with car buyers when they are shopping for a vehicle. Given that gas prices have made diesel cars such an attractive option in Europe, and the truck love in other markets, the question still stands: Where is the value? [/QUOTE]
Diesel has little to do with it, people are still going to buy cars based on branding. If someone is jazzed on the Citroen WRC team and the Citroen Car company, they are still going to buy a Citroen-diesel or not.
It is very hard to measure the value of auto racing these days because it is more about name recognition and long term returns, at the same time there is a fine line between spending too much money on the marketing, in return for the perceived value.
For example; toilet paper- You see the ad for "don't squeeze the Charmin". Do you immediately run out and buy Charmin? Of course not, but when your in the supermarket standing in front of the wall of toilet paper and that last brand hurt your ass, there is a chance your going to remember that ad in the back of your head and without even realizing it, pick up the Charmin and drop in the basket. Or you may pick up Cottonelle because you like the bear
The advertising and marketing industry is huge and they are not dumb, if there was no value in motorsports, professional racing would have ended years ago.
What I'm saying is that ultimately, I don't know if motorsports investment has ANY value for a manufacturer, up to and including Ferrari. [/QUOTE]
So they do it for their health then :rolleyes:
Apparently you don't realize how much the Ferrari name/logo is worth in merchandising alone, it's in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
[QUOTE]How many U.S. market Ferrari purchasers know of the F1 team and its exploits?[/QUOTE]
I'd say most of them
Besides, F1 and WRC are European sports, they are not directly marketing to Americans.
[QUOTE]I think that Peugeot/Citroen has figured this out, which is why they're pulling out. [/QUOTE]
Not really, it because business is down overall and they blew their wad. It is pretty clear when you go to a European WRC event how much more PSA is spending over the other teams.
[QUOTE] But look at how quickly Ford jettisoned the F1 side of things with Jaguar, and F1 is king, as motorsports exposure goes.[/QUOTE]
Yes but it costs way more to participate in F1 and business was down, so Ford did not want to spend the money to keep up with Ferrari, et al
[QUOTE]Manufacturers participate in auto racing with exposure in mind, one that will resonate with car buyers when they are shopping for a vehicle. Given that gas prices have made diesel cars such an attractive option in Europe, and the truck love in other markets, the question still stands: Where is the value? [/QUOTE]
Diesel has little to do with it, people are still going to buy cars based on branding. If someone is jazzed on the Citroen WRC team and the Citroen Car company, they are still going to buy a Citroen-diesel or not.
It is very hard to measure the value of auto racing these days because it is more about name recognition and long term returns, at the same time there is a fine line between spending too much money on the marketing, in return for the perceived value.
For example; toilet paper- You see the ad for "don't squeeze the Charmin". Do you immediately run out and buy Charmin? Of course not, but when your in the supermarket standing in front of the wall of toilet paper and that last brand hurt your ass, there is a chance your going to remember that ad in the back of your head and without even realizing it, pick up the Charmin and drop in the basket. Or you may pick up Cottonelle because you like the bear
The advertising and marketing industry is huge and they are not dumb, if there was no value in motorsports, professional racing would have ended years ago.
| gtguy | 02-21-2005 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]So they do it for their health then :rolleyes:
The advertising and marketing industry is huge and they are not dumb, if there was no value in motorsports, professional racing would have ended years ago.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps this explains why more manufacturers are reassessing the value of this endeavor.
The Ferrari brand name is huge, and would be huge even without motorsports participation, because it's become an aspirational brand name. It's much, much more than a car. Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. But they know the red cars. If Ferrari didn't race, they would still sell Ferraris. They wouldn't sell as much Ferrari merchandise, but those costs would be offset by not having to manufacture said merchandise, not to mention the immense savings that would come from not running a team.
And of course racing teams don't race for their health. We aren't going to be able to have a reasonable discussion if you're going to be facetious. As we agree, they race for the exposure and brand recognition. Where we differ is in the perception of the ultimate value of said recognition in and of itself, and as it relates to the massive budget required to run a program.
The types of cars purchased has a lot to do with a manufacturer's continued participation in a racing program. If Peugeot isn't selling 307s, why bother rallying? The impact isn't being made. People buying Peugeot 207s and 307SWs, not to mention 4 and 6-series cars, are buying them because they're great cars. The Citroens that you see in Europe, particularly France, are the mini-vans, and the C-series sedans and wagons. Again, these are cars with next to no correlation to the WRC program. Most telling is that advertising as it tries to capitalize on the WRC program is nonexistent. In all of the time I have spent in France, and all the car ads on the telly, I have never seen one that even mentions the racing program. French car sales are tanking, which makes WRC an increasingly poor value. To wit, this tidbit from GrandPrix.com:
<<The French car markets
The news that Peugeot and Citroen are going to leave the World Rally Championship at the end of 2005 is a blow for the series but the latest figures of French car sales, revealed a couple of days ago, give ample evidence of why such a move was necessary. The figures show a massive drop in the sales of private cars in the course of the last year with an overall drop of 8.1%. The two French firms Peugeot-Citroen and Renault have suffered most with drops of 13.3% and 12.6% respectively. In comparison the foreign car companies have suffered little, registering a drop of just 0.7% between them altthough some have done better than others. BMW, for example, has increased its sales by 9.9%. Ford and GM have managed to push up their sales by 5.4% and 5.1% respectively while others have suffered: Toyota is down 6.6%, DaimlerChrysler 5.8% and Volkswagen is down 4.1%.
The French companies are blaming the drop in sales on special offers from rival companies which despite selling cars are hurting the profits of the firms involved.>>
This is what I mean by poor value as it relates to what people are buying. You can see it on the streets. French cars in France used to have a near-monopoly on sales. You drove a Pug or Renault or you drove nothing. Now, SUV sales are up, and foreign marques are making a significant inroads. So why keep throwing millions at a racing program if it isn't doing any good?
Kevin
The advertising and marketing industry is huge and they are not dumb, if there was no value in motorsports, professional racing would have ended years ago.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps this explains why more manufacturers are reassessing the value of this endeavor.
The Ferrari brand name is huge, and would be huge even without motorsports participation, because it's become an aspirational brand name. It's much, much more than a car. Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. But they know the red cars. If Ferrari didn't race, they would still sell Ferraris. They wouldn't sell as much Ferrari merchandise, but those costs would be offset by not having to manufacture said merchandise, not to mention the immense savings that would come from not running a team.
And of course racing teams don't race for their health. We aren't going to be able to have a reasonable discussion if you're going to be facetious. As we agree, they race for the exposure and brand recognition. Where we differ is in the perception of the ultimate value of said recognition in and of itself, and as it relates to the massive budget required to run a program.
The types of cars purchased has a lot to do with a manufacturer's continued participation in a racing program. If Peugeot isn't selling 307s, why bother rallying? The impact isn't being made. People buying Peugeot 207s and 307SWs, not to mention 4 and 6-series cars, are buying them because they're great cars. The Citroens that you see in Europe, particularly France, are the mini-vans, and the C-series sedans and wagons. Again, these are cars with next to no correlation to the WRC program. Most telling is that advertising as it tries to capitalize on the WRC program is nonexistent. In all of the time I have spent in France, and all the car ads on the telly, I have never seen one that even mentions the racing program. French car sales are tanking, which makes WRC an increasingly poor value. To wit, this tidbit from GrandPrix.com:
<<The French car markets
The news that Peugeot and Citroen are going to leave the World Rally Championship at the end of 2005 is a blow for the series but the latest figures of French car sales, revealed a couple of days ago, give ample evidence of why such a move was necessary. The figures show a massive drop in the sales of private cars in the course of the last year with an overall drop of 8.1%. The two French firms Peugeot-Citroen and Renault have suffered most with drops of 13.3% and 12.6% respectively. In comparison the foreign car companies have suffered little, registering a drop of just 0.7% between them altthough some have done better than others. BMW, for example, has increased its sales by 9.9%. Ford and GM have managed to push up their sales by 5.4% and 5.1% respectively while others have suffered: Toyota is down 6.6%, DaimlerChrysler 5.8% and Volkswagen is down 4.1%.
The French companies are blaming the drop in sales on special offers from rival companies which despite selling cars are hurting the profits of the firms involved.>>
This is what I mean by poor value as it relates to what people are buying. You can see it on the streets. French cars in France used to have a near-monopoly on sales. You drove a Pug or Renault or you drove nothing. Now, SUV sales are up, and foreign marques are making a significant inroads. So why keep throwing millions at a racing program if it isn't doing any good?
Kevin
| Mopho | 02-21-2005 12:17 PM |
If sales are down, the first thing that usually gets cut is motorsports and advertising, because they have to save money, it has less to do with the value of the racing program or whether they feel it was worth competing.
Isn't it obvious that a motorsports program has a return value, otherwise no one would do it? No one would sponsor a team or a race either.
Like I already pointed out it is about brand loyalty and long term effects, not about making people run out and buy cars immediately.
[QUOTE]The types of cars purchased has a lot to do with a manufacturer's continued participation in a racing program. If Peugeot isn't selling 307s, why bother rallying?[/QUOTE]
Again, it is not just about selling 307's, it is about selling the Peugeot brand. Its about branding!!!
Do you think that everyone that follows the Subaru team buys STI's?
In Japan they love WRC, there is three magazines dedicated to it, yet most people buy Legacy's.
Do you think that people that root for Chevy in Nascar buy whatever car they run, no they buy a Chevy Truck and are proud of it.
[QUOTE]Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. [/QUOTE]
I'd wager your wrong! And again you are stating an example of Americans, which is not the market that WRC and F1 is targeting. Schumacher can't go anywhere without being recognized in Europe. He is also the highest paid sports figure, why do you think that is?
[QUOTE]The Ferrari brand name is huge, and would be huge even without motorsports participation, because it's become an aspirational brand name. It's much, much more than a car. Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. But they know the red cars. If Ferrari didn't race, they would still sell Ferraris. They wouldn't sell as much Ferrari merchandise, but those costs would be offset by not having to manufacture said merchandise, not to mention the immense savings that would come from not running a team.
[/QUOTE]
Again, if it is such a bad idea for them to race and it would save them so much money if they didn't, why do they bother? Don't you think they know what they are doing and see value in doing it?
Car companies come and go in any given motorsport for various reasons, but to say there is no value in it is ridiculous, if that was the case Professional racing would not exist
Isn't it obvious that a motorsports program has a return value, otherwise no one would do it? No one would sponsor a team or a race either.
Like I already pointed out it is about brand loyalty and long term effects, not about making people run out and buy cars immediately.
[QUOTE]The types of cars purchased has a lot to do with a manufacturer's continued participation in a racing program. If Peugeot isn't selling 307s, why bother rallying?[/QUOTE]
Again, it is not just about selling 307's, it is about selling the Peugeot brand. Its about branding!!!
Do you think that everyone that follows the Subaru team buys STI's?
In Japan they love WRC, there is three magazines dedicated to it, yet most people buy Legacy's.
Do you think that people that root for Chevy in Nascar buy whatever car they run, no they buy a Chevy Truck and are proud of it.
[QUOTE]Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. [/QUOTE]
I'd wager your wrong! And again you are stating an example of Americans, which is not the market that WRC and F1 is targeting. Schumacher can't go anywhere without being recognized in Europe. He is also the highest paid sports figure, why do you think that is?
[QUOTE]The Ferrari brand name is huge, and would be huge even without motorsports participation, because it's become an aspirational brand name. It's much, much more than a car. Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. But they know the red cars. If Ferrari didn't race, they would still sell Ferraris. They wouldn't sell as much Ferrari merchandise, but those costs would be offset by not having to manufacture said merchandise, not to mention the immense savings that would come from not running a team.
[/QUOTE]
Again, if it is such a bad idea for them to race and it would save them so much money if they didn't, why do they bother? Don't you think they know what they are doing and see value in doing it?
Car companies come and go in any given motorsport for various reasons, but to say there is no value in it is ridiculous, if that was the case Professional racing would not exist
| artkevin | 02-21-2005 12:36 PM |
[QUOTE=shoracer]If Loeb goes to Subaru I may have to trade in the car for the New Stang, I hate Loeb.
I hope he puts another hole in the oil pan in Mexico this year.[/QUOTE]
You hate Loeb? Why? I think he sounds like a good guy and he is fast as hell and not a jackass form what I can tell.
KP
I hope he puts another hole in the oil pan in Mexico this year.[/QUOTE]
You hate Loeb? Why? I think he sounds like a good guy and he is fast as hell and not a jackass form what I can tell.
KP
| DrBiggly | 02-21-2005 04:57 PM |
As I remember correctly, Ferrari are the exception to the "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" rule as Enzo had used the sales of his road cars to pay for his racing teams and not the racing team to help bolster his car sales. :)
| cwareing | 02-21-2005 05:42 PM |
Sell on Monday-Saturday, Win on Sunday? :confused: ;)
| DrBiggly | 02-21-2005 05:53 PM |
[QUOTE=cwareing]Sell on Monday-Saturday, Win on Sunday? :confused: ;)[/QUOTE]
Maybe it was more like:
1) Start race team
2) Sell road cars
3) ???
4) Profit!
I dunno. :lol:
Maybe it was more like:
1) Start race team
2) Sell road cars
3) ???
4) Profit!
I dunno. :lol:
| gtguy | 02-21-2005 06:56 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]I'd wager your wrong! And again you are stating an example of Americans, which is not the market that WRC and F1 is targeting. Schumacher can't go anywhere without being recognized in Europe. He is also the highest paid sports figure, why do you think that is?
Again, if it is such a bad idea for them to race and it would save them so much money if they didn't, why do they bother? Don't you think they know what they are doing and see value in doing it?
Car companies come and go in any given motorsport for various reasons, but to say there is no value in it is ridiculous, if that was the case Professional racing would not exist[/QUOTE]
No, I just think that racing is one of those things that sounds like a good idea. Marketing departments say "Hey, people watch, people shop for cars, we get exposure, let's party." But as the costs of fielding a top-flight team become a reality, coupled with a market downturn such as the French marques are showing, then it becomes less of a good idea.
There are some executives that participate in motorsports simply because they love it, but they are few and far between. For most it is a business exercise that, like anything else in the company's portfolio, is jettisoned as soon as it winds up on the wrong side of the bottom line.
Motorsports has to with exposure. I don't know that it does anything for brand loyalty. I liked Subarus before I knew anything about the WRC. I can't say that the company's participation in the WRC does anything for me or my car buying decisions. I'm just an example, mind you. But I can count the Subarus I have seen, in five years of vacationing in Europe, on the fingers of one hand: two STis, one WRX, and one WRX wagon with UK plates. Done.
Schumacher would be famous and highly-paid no matter what he drove, because he is the best, and people love excellence. It's the reason the Bulls sold Michael Jordan jersies when they were winning, and why Real Madrid sold about 300% more David Beckham jersies when he signed on to the team. But the question in, what does Schumacher's excellence do for Ferrari? They win races and gain sponsorship because of this, yes. But if Fiat can't figure out how to keep financing the F1 program, they will be facing some hard decisions.
You are right, Peugeot's WRC efforts are about selling the brand. But that isn't working, so they're pulling out. That's what any business would do. Apparently, the branding is having little to no effect, so why spend the money? At first, sometimes, a team's motorsports efforts can have a positive effect on sales and the bottom line. But sometimes still, that balance tilts, and it no longer becomes cost-effective.
Also, don't forget that the TV show is very important. At a breakfast with Max Mosley, he once told me that "ticket buyers aren't all that important, except for how it looks on the TV screen." TV money is the thing. WRC is so expensive because its TV deal isn't all that hot compared to that of F1, which makes it that much more critical for WRC manufacturers to see some bottom line effect. Even though a WRC budget is less than an F1 budget, the lack of the extra bucks attendant to F1 means that WRC can still cost too much, where F1 might not.
Kevin
Again, if it is such a bad idea for them to race and it would save them so much money if they didn't, why do they bother? Don't you think they know what they are doing and see value in doing it?
Car companies come and go in any given motorsport for various reasons, but to say there is no value in it is ridiculous, if that was the case Professional racing would not exist[/QUOTE]
No, I just think that racing is one of those things that sounds like a good idea. Marketing departments say "Hey, people watch, people shop for cars, we get exposure, let's party." But as the costs of fielding a top-flight team become a reality, coupled with a market downturn such as the French marques are showing, then it becomes less of a good idea.
There are some executives that participate in motorsports simply because they love it, but they are few and far between. For most it is a business exercise that, like anything else in the company's portfolio, is jettisoned as soon as it winds up on the wrong side of the bottom line.
Motorsports has to with exposure. I don't know that it does anything for brand loyalty. I liked Subarus before I knew anything about the WRC. I can't say that the company's participation in the WRC does anything for me or my car buying decisions. I'm just an example, mind you. But I can count the Subarus I have seen, in five years of vacationing in Europe, on the fingers of one hand: two STis, one WRX, and one WRX wagon with UK plates. Done.
Schumacher would be famous and highly-paid no matter what he drove, because he is the best, and people love excellence. It's the reason the Bulls sold Michael Jordan jersies when they were winning, and why Real Madrid sold about 300% more David Beckham jersies when he signed on to the team. But the question in, what does Schumacher's excellence do for Ferrari? They win races and gain sponsorship because of this, yes. But if Fiat can't figure out how to keep financing the F1 program, they will be facing some hard decisions.
You are right, Peugeot's WRC efforts are about selling the brand. But that isn't working, so they're pulling out. That's what any business would do. Apparently, the branding is having little to no effect, so why spend the money? At first, sometimes, a team's motorsports efforts can have a positive effect on sales and the bottom line. But sometimes still, that balance tilts, and it no longer becomes cost-effective.
Also, don't forget that the TV show is very important. At a breakfast with Max Mosley, he once told me that "ticket buyers aren't all that important, except for how it looks on the TV screen." TV money is the thing. WRC is so expensive because its TV deal isn't all that hot compared to that of F1, which makes it that much more critical for WRC manufacturers to see some bottom line effect. Even though a WRC budget is less than an F1 budget, the lack of the extra bucks attendant to F1 means that WRC can still cost too much, where F1 might not.
Kevin
| WRXMaster | 02-21-2005 07:10 PM |
[QUOTE=gtguy]Perhaps this explains why more manufacturers are reassessing the value of this endeavor.
The Ferrari brand name is huge, and would be huge even without motorsports participation, because it's become an aspirational brand name. It's much, much more than a car. Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. But they know the red cars. If Ferrari didn't race, they would still sell Ferraris. They wouldn't sell as much Ferrari merchandise, but those costs would be offset by not having to manufacture said merchandise, not to mention the immense savings that would come from not running a team.
This is what I mean by poor value as it relates to what people are buying. You can see it on the streets. French cars in France used to have a near-monopoly on sales. You drove a Pug or Renault or you drove nothing. Now, SUV sales are up, and foreign marques are making a significant inroads. So why keep throwing millions at a racing program if it isn't doing any good?
Kevin[/QUOTE]
Your totally wrong about Ferrari drivers! I know alot of them and they worship shuey..... Ferrari is famous for its racing .......Thats how they got this awsome image... Friends who work for Ferrari say they bag alot of customers at F1 events.
NOw about Peugot ... When the 206 won the wrc championship - That car was the number 1 selling car in the UK! I havent been to france in a while ... but last time I was in the Uk 307's were everywhere! PSA is only threatening to drop out because they are angry with the FIA .........They are just pissy about the new rule changes... Do you know how big rally is in France?? 3 French drivers running in the wrc at the moment ...... It would be sucidal for the PSA to drop out of the wrc ......Renault would jump right in to take their place
Ok lets talk about ford europe ..... They spend 40 million dollars on their program for 2 cars 16 races
WRC exposure numbers for 2002 was 989 million TV viewers - coming from ISC
Rally Finland 10% of the population comes to watch in person
Plus the wrc cars go to local dealerships aroudn the rally
Think about how much 40 million would get you in print and tv advertising? Not much!
btw Citroen products are junk .. but their rally image has made them a icon in france
The Ferrari brand name is huge, and would be huge even without motorsports participation, because it's become an aspirational brand name. It's much, much more than a car. Of the thousands of people sporting Ferrari red at the U.S. Grand Prix, I would wager that precious few of them could tell Michael Schumacher from Willie Shoemaker. But they know the red cars. If Ferrari didn't race, they would still sell Ferraris. They wouldn't sell as much Ferrari merchandise, but those costs would be offset by not having to manufacture said merchandise, not to mention the immense savings that would come from not running a team.
This is what I mean by poor value as it relates to what people are buying. You can see it on the streets. French cars in France used to have a near-monopoly on sales. You drove a Pug or Renault or you drove nothing. Now, SUV sales are up, and foreign marques are making a significant inroads. So why keep throwing millions at a racing program if it isn't doing any good?
Kevin[/QUOTE]
Your totally wrong about Ferrari drivers! I know alot of them and they worship shuey..... Ferrari is famous for its racing .......Thats how they got this awsome image... Friends who work for Ferrari say they bag alot of customers at F1 events.
NOw about Peugot ... When the 206 won the wrc championship - That car was the number 1 selling car in the UK! I havent been to france in a while ... but last time I was in the Uk 307's were everywhere! PSA is only threatening to drop out because they are angry with the FIA .........They are just pissy about the new rule changes... Do you know how big rally is in France?? 3 French drivers running in the wrc at the moment ...... It would be sucidal for the PSA to drop out of the wrc ......Renault would jump right in to take their place
Ok lets talk about ford europe ..... They spend 40 million dollars on their program for 2 cars 16 races
WRC exposure numbers for 2002 was 989 million TV viewers - coming from ISC
Rally Finland 10% of the population comes to watch in person
Plus the wrc cars go to local dealerships aroudn the rally
Think about how much 40 million would get you in print and tv advertising? Not much!
btw Citroen products are junk .. but their rally image has made them a icon in france
| Chaste Automotive | 02-22-2005 12:19 PM |
Well if PSA is going to keep a team in the WRC it will not be the Pug, while the 206 sold like hotcakes the 307 has not atken off and it was very costly to develop. Citoren has achieved very good results on a smaller budget then Peugeot so I imagine value for dollar Citroen is better. IT also does not make sense for two brands withing the same company to be competting against each other in the same sport. See nascar if you have a monte carlo you don't need a pontic because you affect sales. Now that being said you also have to factor in the fact that Citroen has two young, quick, french speaking drivers. If PSA is to stay they will keep citroen for sure.
Marko Martin: he started with Subaru but was traded for Solberg, since then SOlberg has one a drivers title and Martin has been very fast at times but has not shown that he can put together a full season. I think Subaru saw that Solberg was the better bet and took the gamble on him. I do not see a home coming here. Roman Kresta does not really seem like a long term answer at Ford, Martin would have stayed at ford had they been able to commit to the championship as they have now so this is probably his best oppurtunity.
Gronholm I see retiring he is older and I think he was very comfortable at Peugeot with Provera gone as well I think he will retire to his cabin. Maybe he wil ldo some guest drives in Finland and Sweden where he has always been blindingly fast.
Duval is finally showing his promise though I am not sure he can develop a car yet, if citroen goes I would not be surprised for him to turn up at Mitsu or Skoda.
Loeb will go to Ford, Subaru, or Mitsu if citroen does indeed drop out and I think he will have a tough time he has been with Citroen for a long time.
Marko Martin: he started with Subaru but was traded for Solberg, since then SOlberg has one a drivers title and Martin has been very fast at times but has not shown that he can put together a full season. I think Subaru saw that Solberg was the better bet and took the gamble on him. I do not see a home coming here. Roman Kresta does not really seem like a long term answer at Ford, Martin would have stayed at ford had they been able to commit to the championship as they have now so this is probably his best oppurtunity.
Gronholm I see retiring he is older and I think he was very comfortable at Peugeot with Provera gone as well I think he will retire to his cabin. Maybe he wil ldo some guest drives in Finland and Sweden where he has always been blindingly fast.
Duval is finally showing his promise though I am not sure he can develop a car yet, if citroen goes I would not be surprised for him to turn up at Mitsu or Skoda.
Loeb will go to Ford, Subaru, or Mitsu if citroen does indeed drop out and I think he will have a tough time he has been with Citroen for a long time.
| gtguy | 02-22-2005 12:44 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]Your totally wrong about Ferrari drivers! I know alot of them and they worship shuey..... Ferrari is famous for its racing .......Thats how they got this awsome image... Friends who work for Ferrari say they bag alot of customers at F1 events.
NOw about Peugot ... When the 206 won the wrc championship - That car was the number 1 selling car in the UK! I havent been to france in a while ... but last time I was in the Uk 307's were everywhere! PSA is only threatening to drop out because they are angry with the FIA .........They are just pissy about the new rule changes... Do you know how big rally is in France?? 3 French drivers running in the wrc at the moment ...... It would be sucidal for the PSA to drop out of the wrc ......Renault would jump right in to take their place
Ok lets talk about ford europe ..... They spend 40 million dollars on their program for 2 cars 16 races
WRC exposure numbers for 2002 was 989 million TV viewers - coming from ISC
Rally Finland 10% of the population comes to watch in person
Plus the wrc cars go to local dealerships aroudn the rally
Think about how much 40 million would get you in print and tv advertising? Not much!
btw Citroen products are junk .. but their rally image has made them a icon in france[/QUOTE]
But I've also talked to a few Ferrari drivers up this way (North Shore suburbs, Chicago area) who don't even know who Michael Schumacher is. So it all depends upon whom you ask. People who want a Ferrari, and can afford one, are usually pre-sold. The only question is color and options. It is rare that people "shop" for a Ferrari. Yes, Ferrari is that extremely rare company where the motorsports arm lives and breathes with the passenger car division, but not everyone who owns/drives a Ferrari is into motorsports. Many just want a "screw you" kind of car. :lol:
Rally is big in France with a certain crowd. With a different crowd, rally doesn't even register. Again, it depends on the person polled. And irrespective of how big rally is, Peugeot/Citroen isn't selling cars, and they're not selling cars at a rather distressing pace. The popularity of rally is all a matter of perspective. It seems more important to us because we're motorsports devotees. Loeb is certainly popular, but compare him to say, Zinedine Zidane, and he's barely a blip on the radar.
The Ford numbers mean that they are on the good side of the ledger, for now. When those numbers change, as they did for F1, they'll be gone like the Road Runner, but without the "meep, meep." Regarding Citroen, you really should drive a C5 sedan or wagon. It's a brilliant car that businessmen aren't buying because Loeb drives a Citroen in the WRC. Sure, some Xsaras are sold through the aspirational aspects, but not Picasso minivans, which verge on the ubquitous.
French people buy French cars. This explains much of the sales power of the French marques, who are now at a loss to explain why this tendency has suddenly halted. But the manufacturers are definitely circling the wagons. If Peugeot/Citroen can figure out a way to make rallying fiscally sound, they might well stay in.
All that I'm saying is motorsports is a business, just like anything else. As long as the numbers are there, things are fine. When they aren't, hard decisions can and will be made. Sometimes this results in teams pulling out, other times sponsorship programs are reconfigured as to be less expensive. This isn't a bad thing, just reality.
Kevin
NOw about Peugot ... When the 206 won the wrc championship - That car was the number 1 selling car in the UK! I havent been to france in a while ... but last time I was in the Uk 307's were everywhere! PSA is only threatening to drop out because they are angry with the FIA .........They are just pissy about the new rule changes... Do you know how big rally is in France?? 3 French drivers running in the wrc at the moment ...... It would be sucidal for the PSA to drop out of the wrc ......Renault would jump right in to take their place
Ok lets talk about ford europe ..... They spend 40 million dollars on their program for 2 cars 16 races
WRC exposure numbers for 2002 was 989 million TV viewers - coming from ISC
Rally Finland 10% of the population comes to watch in person
Plus the wrc cars go to local dealerships aroudn the rally
Think about how much 40 million would get you in print and tv advertising? Not much!
btw Citroen products are junk .. but their rally image has made them a icon in france[/QUOTE]
But I've also talked to a few Ferrari drivers up this way (North Shore suburbs, Chicago area) who don't even know who Michael Schumacher is. So it all depends upon whom you ask. People who want a Ferrari, and can afford one, are usually pre-sold. The only question is color and options. It is rare that people "shop" for a Ferrari. Yes, Ferrari is that extremely rare company where the motorsports arm lives and breathes with the passenger car division, but not everyone who owns/drives a Ferrari is into motorsports. Many just want a "screw you" kind of car. :lol:
Rally is big in France with a certain crowd. With a different crowd, rally doesn't even register. Again, it depends on the person polled. And irrespective of how big rally is, Peugeot/Citroen isn't selling cars, and they're not selling cars at a rather distressing pace. The popularity of rally is all a matter of perspective. It seems more important to us because we're motorsports devotees. Loeb is certainly popular, but compare him to say, Zinedine Zidane, and he's barely a blip on the radar.
The Ford numbers mean that they are on the good side of the ledger, for now. When those numbers change, as they did for F1, they'll be gone like the Road Runner, but without the "meep, meep." Regarding Citroen, you really should drive a C5 sedan or wagon. It's a brilliant car that businessmen aren't buying because Loeb drives a Citroen in the WRC. Sure, some Xsaras are sold through the aspirational aspects, but not Picasso minivans, which verge on the ubquitous.
French people buy French cars. This explains much of the sales power of the French marques, who are now at a loss to explain why this tendency has suddenly halted. But the manufacturers are definitely circling the wagons. If Peugeot/Citroen can figure out a way to make rallying fiscally sound, they might well stay in.
All that I'm saying is motorsports is a business, just like anything else. As long as the numbers are there, things are fine. When they aren't, hard decisions can and will be made. Sometimes this results in teams pulling out, other times sponsorship programs are reconfigured as to be less expensive. This isn't a bad thing, just reality.
Kevin
| CirrusWRX | 02-22-2005 02:01 PM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]You hate Loeb? Why? I think he sounds like a good guy and he is fast as hell and not a jackass form what I can tell.
KP[/QUOTE]
Agreed - why do you hate him shoracer?
He's damned consistent in a consistent car with a consistent team. Hasn't done anything overtly obvious, as far as I know, that would cause anybody to "hate him" other than beat your favorite driver. :confused:
I'm as big of a Subaru fan as the next guy, but I'm also smart enough to recognize talent when I see it- Loeb seems to be cool under pressure, a damned good driver, makes the RIGHT *CRITICAL* choices, drives a good car with a good team, is a good character, seems friendly and sportsman-like, which all adds up to more points in the win column. What's not to like?
KP[/QUOTE]
Agreed - why do you hate him shoracer?
He's damned consistent in a consistent car with a consistent team. Hasn't done anything overtly obvious, as far as I know, that would cause anybody to "hate him" other than beat your favorite driver. :confused:
I'm as big of a Subaru fan as the next guy, but I'm also smart enough to recognize talent when I see it- Loeb seems to be cool under pressure, a damned good driver, makes the RIGHT *CRITICAL* choices, drives a good car with a good team, is a good character, seems friendly and sportsman-like, which all adds up to more points in the win column. What's not to like?
| greg donovan | 02-23-2005 01:33 AM |
ok, i said what i said about the french as a lame attempt at poor taste humor.
i think they may change their position because of the C4. they need to show off the new car somehow. the Xsara is now the oldest car out there, isnt it?
i think they may change their position because of the C4. they need to show off the new car somehow. the Xsara is now the oldest car out there, isnt it?
| WagonMonster | 02-23-2005 11:14 AM |
Loeb seems like a pretty decent guy. If you want to see drivers who are jackasses as people, you need to look no further than 2 former Subaru drivers (Burns & McRae)
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét