| scoop | 02-09-2004 11:08 PM |
Daily-driver & track-worthy: is it worth it?
�
�
This is for all you guys take your daily-driven WRXs at the track...
Last year I started doing track events in beginner HPDE groups. Now that I have 4 track weekends under my belt, I'm starting to pull some moderately fast laps. At my last event, I was experiencing some pretty serious brake fade due to the fact that I was carrying a lot more speed into the turns. I plan to spend at least 6-8 weekends at the track this year, so I obviously need to spend some more time and money getting my car in order.
Right now, I only have a few mild mods:
- Carbotech Bobcats
- 17" Rotas with Kumho 712s (Kuhmo MXs or Azenis are definitely replacing these soon)
- Rear swaybay & solid endlinks
- Uppipe/IC hose set/Underdriven pulley
I really love the WRX on the track and I'd like to keep using it, but now I'm starting to wonder if it's worth trying to make it into a dual purpose street/track machine. I'm not looking to be the fastest guy on the track. My #1 goal is to develop my skills and have fun.
I could go all out, get the BBK, the R-compounds, & the bone-jarring coilovers, but then I'd have to live with the inconvenience and discomfort of it every day of the week. Or, instead, I could shoot for the middle ground... moderately stiffer springs and adjustable struts, swapping between street & race pads for the weekend. Or, finally, leave the WRX for the street and build a Miata into a dedicated track car.
So, for all you guys who use your car as a daily-driver and weekend track machine... Are you happy with your dual-purpose car? Am I better off shooting for the middle ground between on-track performance and real-world liveability, or should I just bite the bullet and get a dedicated track car?
Last year I started doing track events in beginner HPDE groups. Now that I have 4 track weekends under my belt, I'm starting to pull some moderately fast laps. At my last event, I was experiencing some pretty serious brake fade due to the fact that I was carrying a lot more speed into the turns. I plan to spend at least 6-8 weekends at the track this year, so I obviously need to spend some more time and money getting my car in order.
Right now, I only have a few mild mods:
- Carbotech Bobcats
- 17" Rotas with Kumho 712s (Kuhmo MXs or Azenis are definitely replacing these soon)
- Rear swaybay & solid endlinks
- Uppipe/IC hose set/Underdriven pulley
I really love the WRX on the track and I'd like to keep using it, but now I'm starting to wonder if it's worth trying to make it into a dual purpose street/track machine. I'm not looking to be the fastest guy on the track. My #1 goal is to develop my skills and have fun.
I could go all out, get the BBK, the R-compounds, & the bone-jarring coilovers, but then I'd have to live with the inconvenience and discomfort of it every day of the week. Or, instead, I could shoot for the middle ground... moderately stiffer springs and adjustable struts, swapping between street & race pads for the weekend. Or, finally, leave the WRX for the street and build a Miata into a dedicated track car.
So, for all you guys who use your car as a daily-driver and weekend track machine... Are you happy with your dual-purpose car? Am I better off shooting for the middle ground between on-track performance and real-world liveability, or should I just bite the bullet and get a dedicated track car?
| lo-buck | 02-10-2004 01:08 AM |
are you fading the pads or the fluid?
if you have the means, go for the track only car.
-spenc
if you have the means, go for the track only car.
-spenc
| NotAnRS | 02-10-2004 06:40 AM |
Ahh yes, the cycle begins. :p
Well, as someone who has definately put himself in a similiar position, I'll give you my take.
First, spend the $ on [I]really good[/I] brake pads. These solved all my fade problems on my similiar weight Audi. Buy a spare set of rotors and take them with you also. The track pads do such a good job that the rotors will eventually wear/heat to the point they crack. Will put an end to your day pretty quickly. I got a lot of use out of my original rotors before this happened, however.
As tempting as it is, I would not spend bucks on more go-fast mods for your street car. Maybe sway bars, or slightly different suspension, but don't get nuts. It's a street car first...keep that in mind. Additionally, 'ehancements' are not going to improve your driving skills. When you learn to drive a car with stock limitations, your driving will have to compensate for the car's shortcomings. This is where you will really hone your skills, and chuckle with evil glee when you can pass cars 'better' than yours whose drivers let the quality of their vehicle make them look good (this only works for so long).
The evil cycle is, as you get better as a driver, you'll want a faster car. :D [B]Do not[/B] ride in or drive, say, a Porsche 911 like I did, as you will spend most hours daydreaming about moving up to that level of vehicle and being dissatisfied with your current ride. Yes, it happens. ;) Actually, the smart thing to do at this point is simply move onto another car vs. put thousands of $ into your current car hoping it will become something it isn't.
The final caution...as you become faster, your chances of going into the tire wall and causing some real damage to your daily driver increase dramatically. Don't run something hard on the track you aren't prepared to walk away from. When you can't do this, it's time for a track car.
A dedicated track car with moderate performance can be just as much fun as an expensive, fast car you need to drive to work on Monday.
Well, as someone who has definately put himself in a similiar position, I'll give you my take.
First, spend the $ on [I]really good[/I] brake pads. These solved all my fade problems on my similiar weight Audi. Buy a spare set of rotors and take them with you also. The track pads do such a good job that the rotors will eventually wear/heat to the point they crack. Will put an end to your day pretty quickly. I got a lot of use out of my original rotors before this happened, however.
As tempting as it is, I would not spend bucks on more go-fast mods for your street car. Maybe sway bars, or slightly different suspension, but don't get nuts. It's a street car first...keep that in mind. Additionally, 'ehancements' are not going to improve your driving skills. When you learn to drive a car with stock limitations, your driving will have to compensate for the car's shortcomings. This is where you will really hone your skills, and chuckle with evil glee when you can pass cars 'better' than yours whose drivers let the quality of their vehicle make them look good (this only works for so long).
The evil cycle is, as you get better as a driver, you'll want a faster car. :D [B]Do not[/B] ride in or drive, say, a Porsche 911 like I did, as you will spend most hours daydreaming about moving up to that level of vehicle and being dissatisfied with your current ride. Yes, it happens. ;) Actually, the smart thing to do at this point is simply move onto another car vs. put thousands of $ into your current car hoping it will become something it isn't.
The final caution...as you become faster, your chances of going into the tire wall and causing some real damage to your daily driver increase dramatically. Don't run something hard on the track you aren't prepared to walk away from. When you can't do this, it's time for a track car.
A dedicated track car with moderate performance can be just as much fun as an expensive, fast car you need to drive to work on Monday.
| sdecker | 02-10-2004 08:18 AM |
Oh man, is this deja vu...I was in the same *exact* position as you, and still are.
Cliff's Notes: It is possible to make your car perform quite well at the track and still retain a relatively civilized street ride.
Please note that this information is highly subjective. What works for me may be seen as overkill or underkill by others. The good part is that you should get lots of opinions. Read them all and make an informed decision.
Handling: Like you, I wanted better handling at the track without totally destroying my kidneys during the week. I ended up choosing a relatively mild spring (Prodrive). I also installed a 22-26mm adjustable RSB with solid endlinks. This helped tremendously, but the car was underdamped IMHO with the stock struts. I installed Koni yellow inserts and the car was transformed at the track to the tune of 2 seconds per lap. I also installed Cusco camber plates in the front at a later date. The net result of all this is that my ride is somewhat harsher than stock when on crappy surfaces. On the highway or smooth roads, it is very very close to stock. Total cost = 1200 for all.
Rubber: At the track, I saw how much quicker the R-compound tires were than street rubber. To save costs, I keep a lookout for good quality used R-compounds in my size. In my case, they were worth 3-4 seconds per lap at Road Atlanta. I use the stock size rims to keep the costs down even further. Depending upon the initial condition of the tires, proper care and feeding can make them last 6-8 track weekends at HPDE's/track days. Total cost = ~300 a set, plus mounting/balancing
Brakes: Road Atlanta is fairly hard on brakes. I tried EVERYTHING to get rid of fade prior to going with a BBK. At best, I could only prolong the amount of time before my brakes were fried. This was corroborated by a couple of buddies who did the same thing, except they stuck it out instead of going with a BBK. They both ended up replacing wheel bearings (~500 bucks); I haven't. I purchased a good quality 4 pot kit from TWR Racing. It uses 310x28mm 2 piece floating front rotors and mobobloc forged calipers, and fits under the stock rims. All brake fade and issues were now completely eliminated. I use Carbotech Bobcats on the street and Panther XP's on the track. The compounds are compatible so I can swap back and forth with no issues other than a quick re-bed. Total cost = 1300 for the BBK and ~150 for the pads, which last quite a while. Panther XP's are good for about 2 track weekends at RA.
Horsepower: This is up to you. No, you don't honestly need any extra, but it sure is fun! I have a Cobb AccessECU reflash to stage 2 to go along with a full turboback exhaust and uppipe. This bumps the car up to ~285 hp at the crank, or ~210 at the wheels, which is enough to pull on many many cars at the track. Total cost = 1500 bucks.
Ongoing maintenance: OK, I will admit it. I am a bit of a freak about this stuff. I carefully inspect brakes, handling components, rubber, etc. on a frequent basis. I have fifteen total track days and 16K miles on my car and have had no maintenance issues at all (knock on wood).
So, long story short, I have about 4K in fixed costs and recurring costs of about 600 dollars per track day season (8 total days).
Is it worth it to me? Yep. Love it. Don't plan to change my habits. Bang for the buck factor is pretty good. No, it's not as cheap as a 1984 VW GTI with a cage, but it's nowhere near as expensive as an E46 M3. Plus, I can drive it every day during the week, and I do so.
I have also considered a dedicated Miata. While they are great cars, don't forget that you have a lot of extra expense that goes along with that route. You need something to tow with; you have to store the car, etc. Of course, you most likely also lose the ability to drive it on the street. Lastly, several of the groups that run track days at Road Atlanta do not permit convertibles, even though they have a hard top and roll cage. :rolleyes: That may not be the case for you, but it's something to think about.
OK man, I hope this helps you. Best of luck!
Scott
Cliff's Notes: It is possible to make your car perform quite well at the track and still retain a relatively civilized street ride.
Please note that this information is highly subjective. What works for me may be seen as overkill or underkill by others. The good part is that you should get lots of opinions. Read them all and make an informed decision.
Handling: Like you, I wanted better handling at the track without totally destroying my kidneys during the week. I ended up choosing a relatively mild spring (Prodrive). I also installed a 22-26mm adjustable RSB with solid endlinks. This helped tremendously, but the car was underdamped IMHO with the stock struts. I installed Koni yellow inserts and the car was transformed at the track to the tune of 2 seconds per lap. I also installed Cusco camber plates in the front at a later date. The net result of all this is that my ride is somewhat harsher than stock when on crappy surfaces. On the highway or smooth roads, it is very very close to stock. Total cost = 1200 for all.
Rubber: At the track, I saw how much quicker the R-compound tires were than street rubber. To save costs, I keep a lookout for good quality used R-compounds in my size. In my case, they were worth 3-4 seconds per lap at Road Atlanta. I use the stock size rims to keep the costs down even further. Depending upon the initial condition of the tires, proper care and feeding can make them last 6-8 track weekends at HPDE's/track days. Total cost = ~300 a set, plus mounting/balancing
Brakes: Road Atlanta is fairly hard on brakes. I tried EVERYTHING to get rid of fade prior to going with a BBK. At best, I could only prolong the amount of time before my brakes were fried. This was corroborated by a couple of buddies who did the same thing, except they stuck it out instead of going with a BBK. They both ended up replacing wheel bearings (~500 bucks); I haven't. I purchased a good quality 4 pot kit from TWR Racing. It uses 310x28mm 2 piece floating front rotors and mobobloc forged calipers, and fits under the stock rims. All brake fade and issues were now completely eliminated. I use Carbotech Bobcats on the street and Panther XP's on the track. The compounds are compatible so I can swap back and forth with no issues other than a quick re-bed. Total cost = 1300 for the BBK and ~150 for the pads, which last quite a while. Panther XP's are good for about 2 track weekends at RA.
Horsepower: This is up to you. No, you don't honestly need any extra, but it sure is fun! I have a Cobb AccessECU reflash to stage 2 to go along with a full turboback exhaust and uppipe. This bumps the car up to ~285 hp at the crank, or ~210 at the wheels, which is enough to pull on many many cars at the track. Total cost = 1500 bucks.
Ongoing maintenance: OK, I will admit it. I am a bit of a freak about this stuff. I carefully inspect brakes, handling components, rubber, etc. on a frequent basis. I have fifteen total track days and 16K miles on my car and have had no maintenance issues at all (knock on wood).
So, long story short, I have about 4K in fixed costs and recurring costs of about 600 dollars per track day season (8 total days).
Is it worth it to me? Yep. Love it. Don't plan to change my habits. Bang for the buck factor is pretty good. No, it's not as cheap as a 1984 VW GTI with a cage, but it's nowhere near as expensive as an E46 M3. Plus, I can drive it every day during the week, and I do so.
I have also considered a dedicated Miata. While they are great cars, don't forget that you have a lot of extra expense that goes along with that route. You need something to tow with; you have to store the car, etc. Of course, you most likely also lose the ability to drive it on the street. Lastly, several of the groups that run track days at Road Atlanta do not permit convertibles, even though they have a hard top and roll cage. :rolleyes: That may not be the case for you, but it's something to think about.
OK man, I hope this helps you. Best of luck!
Scott
| mav1c | 02-10-2004 08:31 AM |
Like NotAnRS said, get better brakes. If you're seeing fade already, it'll just get worse as your skills progress. I'd recommend a BBK with floating rotors, and big, solid caliper. At the very least get a dedicated set of track pads, some stainless brake lines, and upgraded brake fluid like ATE Super Blue, Motul 600, etc. From my experience the stock brakes are the weakest link for a track driven WRX. I run the Stoptech BBK and it's the best money I have spent on the car, IMO. Never have fade problems, even after a full weekend. I have cooked some pads, but that was a learning experience because I tried to get away with "club race" pads which weren't quite up to the task. I run Carbotech XP9's now, and they hold up well.
Also, if you plan on tracking the car fairly often, plan on changing the oil more often. Changing the tranny oil more often. Changing the diff oil more often. Changing the coolant more often. Etc. I basically cut the regular intervals in half during the "track season". Even more often when there a few track events close together.
Don't worry about power mods if you're going to run the track. You're going to be putting a LOT more punishment on the entire drivetrain, and adding power will just increase an chances of failure. I actually had a UTEC, VF34, Perrin fuel rails, Walbro fuel pump, and STi injectors. Got a great package deal. Never put them on the car and sold everything. Just didn't care so much about the power as keeping the car reliable.
Also, if you plan on tracking the car fairly often, plan on changing the oil more often. Changing the tranny oil more often. Changing the diff oil more often. Changing the coolant more often. Etc. I basically cut the regular intervals in half during the "track season". Even more often when there a few track events close together.
Don't worry about power mods if you're going to run the track. You're going to be putting a LOT more punishment on the entire drivetrain, and adding power will just increase an chances of failure. I actually had a UTEC, VF34, Perrin fuel rails, Walbro fuel pump, and STi injectors. Got a great package deal. Never put them on the car and sold everything. Just didn't care so much about the power as keeping the car reliable.
| HoRo1 | 02-10-2004 11:51 AM |
A daily driver/track car is always a compromise. I race my daily driver, so I have plenty of feedback. If you start to do 1 or 2 track days a month, here's what you'll do;
You MUST upgrade the front brakes - not just pads. Go StopTech and use clubrace pads - that will run ~$1800. Rotors will last a season, maybe more depending on how many and the types of events that you run in. Expect pads to wear a little faster. My StopTech rotors and pads both bit the dust simultaneously last weekend at Willow Springs - I wondered why I had no brakes on the last 2 laps...metal to metal contact - OUCH!
Be prepared to replace front wheel bearings and hubs and front axles - these WILL wear out. Upgrade if possible. Expect bearings etc to last no more than a season (depending on how many events constitute a season).
Set money aside to replace the rear AND center diffs. after a season.
Be aware that the gearbox will succumb sooner or later - hopefully later.
Upgrade all fluids to SYNTHETICS immediately and change AT LEAST every second event.
The WRX is heavy and puts a lot of strain on many of its driveline components as a result. Expect to wear pads and tyres relatively quickly.
Of course, you could drop $3-4K on a track car - a prepped Civic or something, another $1000 on a trailer and $4K+ on a truck to tow everything AND still have to pay for pads, tyres, fluids, bearings etc.
It's your call.
You MUST upgrade the front brakes - not just pads. Go StopTech and use clubrace pads - that will run ~$1800. Rotors will last a season, maybe more depending on how many and the types of events that you run in. Expect pads to wear a little faster. My StopTech rotors and pads both bit the dust simultaneously last weekend at Willow Springs - I wondered why I had no brakes on the last 2 laps...metal to metal contact - OUCH!
Be prepared to replace front wheel bearings and hubs and front axles - these WILL wear out. Upgrade if possible. Expect bearings etc to last no more than a season (depending on how many events constitute a season).
Set money aside to replace the rear AND center diffs. after a season.
Be aware that the gearbox will succumb sooner or later - hopefully later.
Upgrade all fluids to SYNTHETICS immediately and change AT LEAST every second event.
The WRX is heavy and puts a lot of strain on many of its driveline components as a result. Expect to wear pads and tyres relatively quickly.
Of course, you could drop $3-4K on a track car - a prepped Civic or something, another $1000 on a trailer and $4K+ on a truck to tow everything AND still have to pay for pads, tyres, fluids, bearings etc.
It's your call.
| Oldnslow | 02-10-2004 01:52 PM |
I'd seriously consider trading up to an STI---it's just not worth all the hassle and expense to try to turn a WRX into a decent track car when the STI is available (you'd still need better pads/fluid even with the STI of course). Save the money you'd spend on mods on the WRX and get the only Subaru that will likely hold up over the long term on the track (and even then you will need to make sure your maintanence is fanatical---all the fluid changes suggested much more often, e.g.). The WRX tranny is so weak that alone is reason not to consider modding a WRX for extensive track days IMHO. STI gives you best of both worlds--still a wonderful , livable street car (with an edge, of course).
| briank | 02-10-2004 03:48 PM |
Here�s a question,
For the people who�s wrx does double duty as a track car and a daily driver, does it make more sense to just buy a STi?
How much do you have to do to a Sti to make it capable enough for track duty 8 days a year? The brakes and suspension are much better than a regular wrx. Besides an alignment and better brake pads, how much more do you have to do to a STi?
That�s kinda my dilemma. I do a few track days per year and I�m getting to the point where my lap times at the tracks I�m going to aren�t getting much faster. I�ve decided to start modding my rex, so now I�ve got the RSB and endlinks sitting in my garage and I did an ECUTEK reflash this fall. Of course I already had better pads and fluid before. That was a must.
Before I do anything else though, such as exhaust and strut inserts, or coil-overs� I think I�d just break down and buy a STi. Seems like it�d be more capable at the track and more reliable and cost me roughly the same over time.
-BrianK
For the people who�s wrx does double duty as a track car and a daily driver, does it make more sense to just buy a STi?
How much do you have to do to a Sti to make it capable enough for track duty 8 days a year? The brakes and suspension are much better than a regular wrx. Besides an alignment and better brake pads, how much more do you have to do to a STi?
That�s kinda my dilemma. I do a few track days per year and I�m getting to the point where my lap times at the tracks I�m going to aren�t getting much faster. I�ve decided to start modding my rex, so now I�ve got the RSB and endlinks sitting in my garage and I did an ECUTEK reflash this fall. Of course I already had better pads and fluid before. That was a must.
Before I do anything else though, such as exhaust and strut inserts, or coil-overs� I think I�d just break down and buy a STi. Seems like it�d be more capable at the track and more reliable and cost me roughly the same over time.
-BrianK
| sdecker | 02-10-2004 04:48 PM |
BrianK:
I honestly think it's about 'six of one, half-dozen of the other'. My WRX has essentially been modded up to the cost and performance of an 04 STI, with the exception of the 6 speed and DCCD. Oh yeah, and about .5 liter. :D
I'd be willing to bet you that I can keep up with an equally well driven 04 STI at the track, all other things being as they are.
The difference for you may be that you can pick up a slightly used WRX for well under 20 grand, maybe even 15. You can put the aforementioned mods on it for ~4K and come in for WAY less than a new STI. Just a thought.
Scott
I honestly think it's about 'six of one, half-dozen of the other'. My WRX has essentially been modded up to the cost and performance of an 04 STI, with the exception of the 6 speed and DCCD. Oh yeah, and about .5 liter. :D
I'd be willing to bet you that I can keep up with an equally well driven 04 STI at the track, all other things being as they are.
The difference for you may be that you can pick up a slightly used WRX for well under 20 grand, maybe even 15. You can put the aforementioned mods on it for ~4K and come in for WAY less than a new STI. Just a thought.
Scott
| scoop | 02-10-2004 06:18 PM |
Thanks for the input. A lot of food for thought.
You all brought up some good points about brakes. I had been under the assumption that a BBK upgrade was overkill for a club racer. The consensus seems to be that it's worth it. Unfortunately, it's not easy for me to swap pads on my car before every trackday because I don't have the garage to do it in. If I go for big brakes, I may try to stick with a medium level street/track pad. Hopefully, the larger rotors will dissipate enough heat to keep the pads in their effective heat range.
Scott, I'm glad to hear that you're still happy with the Prodrive springs/Koni inserts combo. I'm now pretty convinced that I don't need to go for a set of coilovers.
So I could just start out with a BBK upgrade in the front and a spring/strut combo. That'd be around $2700-3200. As I get faster, I could get some R-compounds and some race-only pads. Yea, that sounds reasonable.
Upgrading to an STi just doesn't make sense for me. It'd cost around $14k to sell my WRX and then buy a new STi. If I were starting from scratch, I would go for the STi in a heartbeat, but considering the current depreciation on my WRX, I don't think it's worth it.
You all brought up some good points about brakes. I had been under the assumption that a BBK upgrade was overkill for a club racer. The consensus seems to be that it's worth it. Unfortunately, it's not easy for me to swap pads on my car before every trackday because I don't have the garage to do it in. If I go for big brakes, I may try to stick with a medium level street/track pad. Hopefully, the larger rotors will dissipate enough heat to keep the pads in their effective heat range.
Scott, I'm glad to hear that you're still happy with the Prodrive springs/Koni inserts combo. I'm now pretty convinced that I don't need to go for a set of coilovers.
So I could just start out with a BBK upgrade in the front and a spring/strut combo. That'd be around $2700-3200. As I get faster, I could get some R-compounds and some race-only pads. Yea, that sounds reasonable.
Upgrading to an STi just doesn't make sense for me. It'd cost around $14k to sell my WRX and then buy a new STi. If I were starting from scratch, I would go for the STi in a heartbeat, but considering the current depreciation on my WRX, I don't think it's worth it.
| sdecker | 02-10-2004 06:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by scoop [/i]
[B]Unfortunately, it's not easy for me to swap pads on my car before every trackday because I don't have the garage to do it in. If I go for big brakes, I may try to stick with a medium level street/track pad. Hopefully, the larger rotors will dissipate enough heat to keep the pads in their effective heat range.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Scoop -- don't do it! If you have a place where you can take off one tire, then you have enough room to replace 4 pot pads. It's incredibly easy. I kid you not -- even my 10 year old knows how to do now. :D
Of course, I do a quality check after he's done...but it really is that easy. It actually takes longer to get the wheel off than it does to change 4 pot pads, at least on my kit.
Carbotech Bobcat on the street, Panther XP at the track, you are in great shape.
Prodrive/Koni is a great crossover setup with all the fiddly-ness of coilovers. However, it must be said that it's also not as good as a full on coilover setup. It's all a tradeoff, ya know?
Scott
[B]Unfortunately, it's not easy for me to swap pads on my car before every trackday because I don't have the garage to do it in. If I go for big brakes, I may try to stick with a medium level street/track pad. Hopefully, the larger rotors will dissipate enough heat to keep the pads in their effective heat range.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Scoop -- don't do it! If you have a place where you can take off one tire, then you have enough room to replace 4 pot pads. It's incredibly easy. I kid you not -- even my 10 year old knows how to do now. :D
Of course, I do a quality check after he's done...but it really is that easy. It actually takes longer to get the wheel off than it does to change 4 pot pads, at least on my kit.
Carbotech Bobcat on the street, Panther XP at the track, you are in great shape.
Prodrive/Koni is a great crossover setup with all the fiddly-ness of coilovers. However, it must be said that it's also not as good as a full on coilover setup. It's all a tradeoff, ya know?
Scott
| scoop | 02-10-2004 07:11 PM |
Scott, do you swap the both the front and rear pads, or just the fronts? Maybe I'm making too much of a big deal out of this, but I remember that installing my Bobcats was a PITA and I'm not looking forward to having to do that 12-18 times a year. :eek:
-Mike
-Mike
| sdecker | 02-10-2004 07:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by scoop [/i]
[B]Scott, do you swap the both the front and rear pads, or just the fronts? Maybe I'm making too much of a big deal out of this, but I remember that installing my Bobcats was a PITA and I'm not looking forward to having to do that 12-18 times a year. :eek:
-Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
I leave Bobcats in the rear all year long. IMHO not enough braking is done at the back of the car to warrant anything hotter than that. Your mileage may vary, of course.
The fronts are what I was referring to in this case. Also, if it makes it any easier, you won't have any trouble driving home on the Panther XP's, or driving around for a week or two if you feel like it. Just give 'em a little warm up when they are dead cold.
[B]Scott, do you swap the both the front and rear pads, or just the fronts? Maybe I'm making too much of a big deal out of this, but I remember that installing my Bobcats was a PITA and I'm not looking forward to having to do that 12-18 times a year. :eek:
-Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
I leave Bobcats in the rear all year long. IMHO not enough braking is done at the back of the car to warrant anything hotter than that. Your mileage may vary, of course.
The fronts are what I was referring to in this case. Also, if it makes it any easier, you won't have any trouble driving home on the Panther XP's, or driving around for a week or two if you feel like it. Just give 'em a little warm up when they are dead cold.
| briank | 02-10-2004 08:42 PM |
Depends how you look at it scoop and sdecker,
It really comes down to cost per mile. You can finance the STi. If I sell my wrx now for $14K and I have 50,000miles on it I'm paying $0.22 per mile on that car.
If I keep the thing till 120,000miles, I'm pretty sure I'm going to need a new clutch and even a new tranny ($2300 for both). Add $3000 for additional brake and suspension mods. So the car now has cost me $0.25 if it dies at 120,000 miles and $0.20 if it dies at 150,000 miles.
Not that great a cost per mile over selling it now and I'm still not able to keep up with the STi at the track drivers being equal.
Now if I sell my wrx now and buy a STi for ~$31000 after tax, registration, and an alignment, better brake pads and steel braided brake lines. Keep that car till it dies... It costs $0.258 per mile if it dies at 120,000 and $0.206 per mile if it dies at 150,000.
Chances are it will last longer than my modified WRX because its a stock car and the tranny is much better, so its forseable that the STi will be cheaper in the long run than the modded WRX. And it will be faster!
So does my math add up? I think it makes sense and that's why I'm considering doing the STi thang.
-BrianK
It really comes down to cost per mile. You can finance the STi. If I sell my wrx now for $14K and I have 50,000miles on it I'm paying $0.22 per mile on that car.
If I keep the thing till 120,000miles, I'm pretty sure I'm going to need a new clutch and even a new tranny ($2300 for both). Add $3000 for additional brake and suspension mods. So the car now has cost me $0.25 if it dies at 120,000 miles and $0.20 if it dies at 150,000 miles.
Not that great a cost per mile over selling it now and I'm still not able to keep up with the STi at the track drivers being equal.
Now if I sell my wrx now and buy a STi for ~$31000 after tax, registration, and an alignment, better brake pads and steel braided brake lines. Keep that car till it dies... It costs $0.258 per mile if it dies at 120,000 and $0.206 per mile if it dies at 150,000.
Chances are it will last longer than my modified WRX because its a stock car and the tranny is much better, so its forseable that the STi will be cheaper in the long run than the modded WRX. And it will be faster!
So does my math add up? I think it makes sense and that's why I'm considering doing the STi thang.
-BrianK
| HoRo1 | 02-10-2004 08:59 PM |
There is one thing that all of you have not considered here - the likelihood of a "shunt"
I don't know "scoop" or the types of events in which he drives/plans to drive. Eventually, he will get hit. It might just be an "it'll buff right out" incident, or it might be a $5K worth of damage incident. But, it will probably happen.
As to briank's math, I'm sure that it is right as far as it goes, BUT, what about all the stuff that he doesn't include - wheel bearings, hubs, axles, differentials, prop shafts, clutches, radiators (just wait until the guy in front throws a pebble through yours), hoses, windshields...OK, you might be able to get away without replacing all of these items but I guarantee that in the course of 2 seasons at 8 weekends/season you will have to replace most of the major mechanical components that I have listed. Even if you have the time/tools/knowledge/space to do the work yourself, the cost will start to eat away your budget.
I don't know "scoop" or the types of events in which he drives/plans to drive. Eventually, he will get hit. It might just be an "it'll buff right out" incident, or it might be a $5K worth of damage incident. But, it will probably happen.
As to briank's math, I'm sure that it is right as far as it goes, BUT, what about all the stuff that he doesn't include - wheel bearings, hubs, axles, differentials, prop shafts, clutches, radiators (just wait until the guy in front throws a pebble through yours), hoses, windshields...OK, you might be able to get away without replacing all of these items but I guarantee that in the course of 2 seasons at 8 weekends/season you will have to replace most of the major mechanical components that I have listed. Even if you have the time/tools/knowledge/space to do the work yourself, the cost will start to eat away your budget.
| Penguinking | 02-10-2004 09:02 PM |
i ran my car (with several engine upgrades of course) but no major suspension work at all. however i did spend a good deal on brakes. nothing major, and brake issues went away after these essential upgrades.
SS brake lines
ATE superblue
Carbotech XP's (front only, stock rears)
DBA slotted rotors (front only, stock rear)
DONE.
as for considering the STi thing, i added up all my "performance upgrades" and came out to a total shy of 8 grand.
of course my car had more HP than an STi, but nowhere near hte handling or the smooth power delievery the STi has. therefore, u decide - i enjoyed working on my car and putting in my own effort to make it that fast, rather than getting a fast car to start with.
SS brake lines
ATE superblue
Carbotech XP's (front only, stock rears)
DBA slotted rotors (front only, stock rear)
DONE.
as for considering the STi thing, i added up all my "performance upgrades" and came out to a total shy of 8 grand.
of course my car had more HP than an STi, but nowhere near hte handling or the smooth power delievery the STi has. therefore, u decide - i enjoyed working on my car and putting in my own effort to make it that fast, rather than getting a fast car to start with.
| Penguinking | 02-10-2004 09:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sdecker [/i]
[B]I leave Bobcats in the rear all year long. IMHO not enough braking is done at the back of the car to warrant anything hotter than that. Your mileage may vary, of course.
The fronts are what I was referring to in this case. Also, if it makes it any easier, you won't have any trouble driving home on the Panther XP's, or driving around for a week or two if you feel like it. Just give 'em a little warm up when they are dead cold. [/B][/QUOTE]
another thing on this issue - i would reccomend something like bobcats or axxis ultimates for the rear to balance out the braking force front/rear. with my setup i had abnormally large dive issues in major braking zones- partly because the stock springs on a wrx are light as $*&*, and also b/c i had upgraded rotors/pads front and stock rear. to be honest, i might've been able to squeeze more out of the brakes, but the fronts gripped so well it felt like the car was doing an endo :eek:
[B]I leave Bobcats in the rear all year long. IMHO not enough braking is done at the back of the car to warrant anything hotter than that. Your mileage may vary, of course.
The fronts are what I was referring to in this case. Also, if it makes it any easier, you won't have any trouble driving home on the Panther XP's, or driving around for a week or two if you feel like it. Just give 'em a little warm up when they are dead cold. [/B][/QUOTE]
another thing on this issue - i would reccomend something like bobcats or axxis ultimates for the rear to balance out the braking force front/rear. with my setup i had abnormally large dive issues in major braking zones- partly because the stock springs on a wrx are light as $*&*, and also b/c i had upgraded rotors/pads front and stock rear. to be honest, i might've been able to squeeze more out of the brakes, but the fronts gripped so well it felt like the car was doing an endo :eek:
| scoop | 02-11-2004 12:38 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by briank [/i]
[B]
So does my math add up? I think it makes sense and that's why I'm considering doing the STi thang.
[/B][/QUOTE]
If you're planning to have the car for 120-150k miles, then yea, it's probably worth it to go ahead and upgrade to the STi.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Penguinking [/i]
[B]i ran my car (with several engine upgrades of course) but no major suspension work at all. however i did spend a good deal on brakes. nothing major, and brake issues went away after these essential upgrades.
SS brake lines
ATE superblue
Carbotech XP's (front only, stock rears)
DBA slotted rotors (front only, stock rear)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Penguin, did you run into any wheel bearing problems with that setup? From my understanding, the biggest advantage to a big brake kit is that they tend to run cooler due to the larger rotors. Therefore, they're easier on your wheel bearings.
[B]
So does my math add up? I think it makes sense and that's why I'm considering doing the STi thang.
[/B][/QUOTE]
If you're planning to have the car for 120-150k miles, then yea, it's probably worth it to go ahead and upgrade to the STi.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Penguinking [/i]
[B]i ran my car (with several engine upgrades of course) but no major suspension work at all. however i did spend a good deal on brakes. nothing major, and brake issues went away after these essential upgrades.
SS brake lines
ATE superblue
Carbotech XP's (front only, stock rears)
DBA slotted rotors (front only, stock rear)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Penguin, did you run into any wheel bearing problems with that setup? From my understanding, the biggest advantage to a big brake kit is that they tend to run cooler due to the larger rotors. Therefore, they're easier on your wheel bearings.
| scoop | 02-11-2004 12:52 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by HoRo1[/i]
[B] There is one thing that all of you have not considered here - the likelihood of a "shunt"
I don't know "scoop" or the types of events in which he drives/plans to drive. Eventually, he will get hit. It might just be an "it'll buff right out" incident, or it might be a $5K worth of damage incident. But, it will probably happen.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yea, that's one big reason to go with a cheap, dedicated track car. I'm thinking I could build up a nice track Miata for around $6k (car included). I could keep it street-legal for a season or two and then start racing Spec Miata if I feel the urge down the road.
[B] There is one thing that all of you have not considered here - the likelihood of a "shunt"
I don't know "scoop" or the types of events in which he drives/plans to drive. Eventually, he will get hit. It might just be an "it'll buff right out" incident, or it might be a $5K worth of damage incident. But, it will probably happen.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yea, that's one big reason to go with a cheap, dedicated track car. I'm thinking I could build up a nice track Miata for around $6k (car included). I could keep it street-legal for a season or two and then start racing Spec Miata if I feel the urge down the road.
| Penguinking | 02-11-2004 01:04 AM |
i did develop a wheel bearing problem but i didnt think it was because of the brakes - since i never got fade i just thought that the brakes wernt heating up that much.
...then again XP's are designed for high temp conditions...
and i also have a really cool photo of my car at texas motor speedway - they had a special event where we ran at night, and the picture shows my car at the end of a huge braking zone (120-40) and the front brake rotors glowing bright red :cool:
...then again XP's are designed for high temp conditions...
and i also have a really cool photo of my car at texas motor speedway - they had a special event where we ran at night, and the picture shows my car at the end of a huge braking zone (120-40) and the front brake rotors glowing bright red :cool:
| Penguinking | 02-11-2004 01:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by scoop [/i]
[B]Yea, that's one big reason to go with a cheap, dedicated track car. I'm thinking I could build up a nice track Miata for around $6k (car included). I could keep it street-legal for a season or two and then start racing Spec Miata if I feel the urge down the road. [/B][/QUOTE]
could you seriously enter a car into specmiata for that much? i was heavily considering SM for a while until i found out that just because its a "spec" class doesnt mean theres a huge range of modifications open to the car.
[B]Yea, that's one big reason to go with a cheap, dedicated track car. I'm thinking I could build up a nice track Miata for around $6k (car included). I could keep it street-legal for a season or two and then start racing Spec Miata if I feel the urge down the road. [/B][/QUOTE]
could you seriously enter a car into specmiata for that much? i was heavily considering SM for a while until i found out that just because its a "spec" class doesnt mean theres a huge range of modifications open to the car.
| scoop | 02-11-2004 01:24 AM |
It would probably cost a couple thousand more to turn the car into a Spec Miata racer (a full roll cage and hardtop are required).
For about $8k total, you could probably build a car that's capable of running mid-pack in a regional Spec Miata race. To build a competitive national class car, though, would be more like $15-20k.
For about $8k total, you could probably build a car that's capable of running mid-pack in a regional Spec Miata race. To build a competitive national class car, though, would be more like $15-20k.
| kennethw | 02-11-2004 01:33 AM |
Great exchange; however, with regards to the comments about the STi over the WRX, I am of the opinion that it might be better to do up the WRX; i.e. more economical. But I have gone somewhat overboard....
I have an daily driver STi which I track. As I have mentioned before, the STi's suspension is not the greatest in the world. I have had to spend a fair amount to upgrade to make it handle with a balanced feel. Simply changing springs without changing the dampers does not work well. I've actually changed every single piece, literally.
The brakes on the STi might be Brembos, but they do have the same fading problem. This is mainly because the front knuckle and bearings cannot handle the pounding. In 13 months, I've already gone through 3 sets of brake pads and 1 set of bearings (which are going again). And need to change the front rotors again soon (using project U SCR-PRO).
Spending the money to upgrade your existing WRX might cost less than trading it in to get an STi, because you will itch to modifyt he STi; and there is depreciation, cost of funds, ...etc. Your modified WRX will out perform a stock STi, which I think you would be more satisfied with.
Also, as someone mentioned, if you are serious on the track, you are better getting a track car. But if you cannot afford to (how many people really can anyway), then if something did happen with your old WRX, it is not as bad a loss (financially) than if something happened to your brand new STi.
BTW, I only track it about once a month, so not very excessively.
My 2 cents worth.
I have an daily driver STi which I track. As I have mentioned before, the STi's suspension is not the greatest in the world. I have had to spend a fair amount to upgrade to make it handle with a balanced feel. Simply changing springs without changing the dampers does not work well. I've actually changed every single piece, literally.
The brakes on the STi might be Brembos, but they do have the same fading problem. This is mainly because the front knuckle and bearings cannot handle the pounding. In 13 months, I've already gone through 3 sets of brake pads and 1 set of bearings (which are going again). And need to change the front rotors again soon (using project U SCR-PRO).
Spending the money to upgrade your existing WRX might cost less than trading it in to get an STi, because you will itch to modifyt he STi; and there is depreciation, cost of funds, ...etc. Your modified WRX will out perform a stock STi, which I think you would be more satisfied with.
Also, as someone mentioned, if you are serious on the track, you are better getting a track car. But if you cannot afford to (how many people really can anyway), then if something did happen with your old WRX, it is not as bad a loss (financially) than if something happened to your brand new STi.
BTW, I only track it about once a month, so not very excessively.
My 2 cents worth.
| Penguinking | 02-11-2004 02:02 AM |
i hope you upgraded the brake fluid - thats probably the source of alot of the fade issues w/ the STi brakes
| kennethw | 02-11-2004 05:31 AM |
With regards to the fading brakes, you need to get a little more specific. Are the fading while braking, or is it after a reasonably high G-force corner you need to pump a few times before the brake pressure returns?
With my STi, I don't have the fading while braking problem. But I have changed my front rotors to Project u SCR-PRO, rear to Lockheeds, changed brake fluid many many times, changed to Ferodo Brake Pads, Brake Stop and Steel Braide Hoses.
I do have the latter problem, which I am solving by changing the front knuckles to the new Legacy ones, which are very similar to the Rally Cars. The bearings there are pressed, so they are much stronger and do not allow the rotor to twist as much in the corners.
There was another thread where someone resolved the brake fading problem simply by bleeding properly.
Need to understand what you mean by 'fade'....
With my STi, I don't have the fading while braking problem. But I have changed my front rotors to Project u SCR-PRO, rear to Lockheeds, changed brake fluid many many times, changed to Ferodo Brake Pads, Brake Stop and Steel Braide Hoses.
I do have the latter problem, which I am solving by changing the front knuckles to the new Legacy ones, which are very similar to the Rally Cars. The bearings there are pressed, so they are much stronger and do not allow the rotor to twist as much in the corners.
There was another thread where someone resolved the brake fading problem simply by bleeding properly.
Need to understand what you mean by 'fade'....
| HoRo1 | 02-11-2004 10:28 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by scoop[/i]
[B] Yea, that's one big reason to go with a cheap, dedicated track car. I'm thinking I could build up a nice track Miata for around $6k (car included). I could keep it street-legal for a season or two and then start racing Spec Miata if I feel the urge down the road. [/B][/QUOTE]
Look also at NASA's Honda Challenge series. Fairly inexpensive.
It is ALWAYS cheaper to buy somebody else's project than to start from scratch with your own car. To find a suitable car it is best to go to NASA events (for example) and talk to the guys running in the series that interest you - be it Miatas, Hondas, BMWs, Sentras or Acuras. That way, you can see cars that guys are thinking of selling in action at the track before they get listed on places like ebay or NASA's "For Sale" forum etc, talk to drivers about which cars are well set up, which have been thrashed and are deep money pits, who takes good care of their car etc. and what is a fair price to pay for a decent car. The problem about buying this way is that you might have to wait a year to find just what you're looking for.
I've been looking for a built Honda Challenge car for a few months. I haven't been looking in earnest, just sniffing around, but if I get serious, I'm sure that I can find something for next year (2005).
I found this info below on NASA's "for sale" forum. The car is/was available in the Bay Area. I suspect that to build this car from scratch would cost 2X the asking price.
Spec Miata
1991 Spec Miata for sale. 2nd in 2003 SCCA SF region Spec Miata 4 race series behind Barry Hartzel. Car has won many NASA events.Spare wheels with rains (2 sessions). One weekend on new shaved Toyos. New brake pads front and rear. New rear rotors. New Mazda comp differential. One year on timing belt and water pump. Some spare parts and spare body panels. Bolt in cage. Never wrecked. One small dent in drivers side lower panel. This is a very well sorted car and very fast (and very legal). Fits 6' 4" tall. Steering wheel not included- memories. Pictures available.
$13,000. OBO...
OR
1988 Honda CRX Si w/ V-Tec Red Built for the track! For Sale $6500 37K on JDM B16 A5 w/Hasport Mounts! Interested or questions e-mail or call XXXXXXXXXX
The Honda is in Santa Barbara area (I think).
[B] Yea, that's one big reason to go with a cheap, dedicated track car. I'm thinking I could build up a nice track Miata for around $6k (car included). I could keep it street-legal for a season or two and then start racing Spec Miata if I feel the urge down the road. [/B][/QUOTE]
Look also at NASA's Honda Challenge series. Fairly inexpensive.
It is ALWAYS cheaper to buy somebody else's project than to start from scratch with your own car. To find a suitable car it is best to go to NASA events (for example) and talk to the guys running in the series that interest you - be it Miatas, Hondas, BMWs, Sentras or Acuras. That way, you can see cars that guys are thinking of selling in action at the track before they get listed on places like ebay or NASA's "For Sale" forum etc, talk to drivers about which cars are well set up, which have been thrashed and are deep money pits, who takes good care of their car etc. and what is a fair price to pay for a decent car. The problem about buying this way is that you might have to wait a year to find just what you're looking for.
I've been looking for a built Honda Challenge car for a few months. I haven't been looking in earnest, just sniffing around, but if I get serious, I'm sure that I can find something for next year (2005).
I found this info below on NASA's "for sale" forum. The car is/was available in the Bay Area. I suspect that to build this car from scratch would cost 2X the asking price.
Spec Miata
1991 Spec Miata for sale. 2nd in 2003 SCCA SF region Spec Miata 4 race series behind Barry Hartzel. Car has won many NASA events.Spare wheels with rains (2 sessions). One weekend on new shaved Toyos. New brake pads front and rear. New rear rotors. New Mazda comp differential. One year on timing belt and water pump. Some spare parts and spare body panels. Bolt in cage. Never wrecked. One small dent in drivers side lower panel. This is a very well sorted car and very fast (and very legal). Fits 6' 4" tall. Steering wheel not included- memories. Pictures available.
$13,000. OBO...
OR
1988 Honda CRX Si w/ V-Tec Red Built for the track! For Sale $6500 37K on JDM B16 A5 w/Hasport Mounts! Interested or questions e-mail or call XXXXXXXXXX
The Honda is in Santa Barbara area (I think).
| GarySheehan | 02-11-2004 01:21 PM |
The one thing I really recommend for a track driven car that is experiencing brake fade is to upgrade front brakes to a BBK. You can get the stock sized brakes to not fade, but it still doesn't shed the heat very quickly and you will end up prematurely failing wheel bearings, caliper piston seals, lower ball joints and tie rod ends.
I highly recommend Stoptech for your brake kit. We've used them for two years in USTCC without any problems. In addition, they have all the seals necessary for a street driven car. They are designed specifically for the WRX. Finally, Stoptech is very dedicated to us track guys and their customer service is fantastic.
Other than that, stick with street tires for now. Don't upgrade anything else until it becomes obvious that something needs to be upgraded.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I highly recommend Stoptech for your brake kit. We've used them for two years in USTCC without any problems. In addition, they have all the seals necessary for a street driven car. They are designed specifically for the WRX. Finally, Stoptech is very dedicated to us track guys and their customer service is fantastic.
Other than that, stick with street tires for now. Don't upgrade anything else until it becomes obvious that something needs to be upgraded.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| NotAnRS | 02-11-2004 05:49 PM |
Spec Miata is a wonderful series, and everyone I know who competes in it loves it.
It is, however, too rich for my blood. You will spend $10000 on a car to be competitive, and someone WILL drive into your door eventually.
In my endless quest for alternatives to everything, the absolute cheapest form of racing I think I've come across is BMWCCA. They have a class for a 'stock' car, say a E30 (325is or similiar) which you can pick up used with high mileage for around $2500. Good solid car with lots of aftermarket support. Run in stock until you're bored, then move up to the next lightly modified class (sort of like SCCA's Improved Touring) and then onward from there. Truly a 'step' program that you need not replace the car every time you want to go faster. I honestly think it can be done cheaper than Honda Challenge. Plus the 13/13 racing rules apply, meaning your less likely to have your car demolished by someone with deeper pockets than yours. Only thing I'm not sure of is events schedule, i.e. do they have as many events in a season close by vs. NASA or SCCA.
It is, however, too rich for my blood. You will spend $10000 on a car to be competitive, and someone WILL drive into your door eventually.
In my endless quest for alternatives to everything, the absolute cheapest form of racing I think I've come across is BMWCCA. They have a class for a 'stock' car, say a E30 (325is or similiar) which you can pick up used with high mileage for around $2500. Good solid car with lots of aftermarket support. Run in stock until you're bored, then move up to the next lightly modified class (sort of like SCCA's Improved Touring) and then onward from there. Truly a 'step' program that you need not replace the car every time you want to go faster. I honestly think it can be done cheaper than Honda Challenge. Plus the 13/13 racing rules apply, meaning your less likely to have your car demolished by someone with deeper pockets than yours. Only thing I'm not sure of is events schedule, i.e. do they have as many events in a season close by vs. NASA or SCCA.
| Lafora | 02-12-2004 03:49 PM |
if you've done everything possible to try to eliminate brake fade (ie ur common lines, fluid pads combo), try to see if making some brake DUCTS to cool the brakes will help
shouldn't cost more than 50-60 bucks in material.
if the epxeriment doens't work, at least you can keep em on the car after going BBK.
:)
shouldn't cost more than 50-60 bucks in material.
if the epxeriment doens't work, at least you can keep em on the car after going BBK.
:)
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét