| sube151 | 04-14-2003 06:43 PM |
Found rally car to buy. Need opionions
�
�
Hi Guys/Gals,
I have an opportunity to buy a fully built
PGT 1999 2.5RS rally car. Its comes with a bus load of parts
and a salvaged 2000 2.5RS with good shape mechanical/body parts. The car seems to be in overall good shape, but I need to get everyones opinions on what they think about racing the car.
Car includes:
-- 50mm DMS
-- Custom built chromoly cage
-- Gp N engine & tranny mounts, suspension bushings, strut tops
-- STi front strut tower
-- STi rear sway bar
-- STi rear LSD & axles
-- STi center diff
-- ACT 6-puck copper disk clutch
-- Cobra Suzuka seats
-- Schroth belts
-- Terratrip electronics
-- Momo steering wheel
-- Performance gauge package
-- Stainless steel brake lines
-- Porterfield brake pads
-- Rocker panel reinforcements
-- Front & rear underbody protection w/ diff guard
-- 2 piece Subaru lightpods w/ Hellas & bumper cornering pods
-- 2 1/4" exhaust, Stromung muffler, hi-flow cat
Spares:
-- 2000 2.5 RS parts car - light front end damage, salvage title -----Complete engine
-- Transmission, complete drivetrain
-- Both doors, rear qtr panels, trunk, roof, all glass, rear bumper
-- All four corner suspension, calipers, spindles, etc
-- Steering rack, subframe
New Parts:
-- L & R front control arms
-- 3 tie rod assemblies
-- 2 sets of rear suspension lateral links
-- 2 ball joints
-- 2 wheel bearings
-- Mass air flow meter
-- All belts
-- Radiator & bypass hoses
-- Extra wheel studs & nuts
-- Oil pan
-- Assortment of wheels & tires
-- Stock struts/springs
-- Stock axles
$17K OBO
Other than local rallies, I will be a newbie to the Club/Pro rally scene. This would be my first car.
Would this car be competitive in the pro/club rally scene? Are there pgt turbo restrictions in this class that place the car in a different catergory against a Wrx? Anybody outhere driven the RS in rallies? Is this a good setup for me to start with?
All comments will greatly be appreciated.
:)
-V
I have an opportunity to buy a fully built
PGT 1999 2.5RS rally car. Its comes with a bus load of parts
and a salvaged 2000 2.5RS with good shape mechanical/body parts. The car seems to be in overall good shape, but I need to get everyones opinions on what they think about racing the car.
Car includes:
-- 50mm DMS
-- Custom built chromoly cage
-- Gp N engine & tranny mounts, suspension bushings, strut tops
-- STi front strut tower
-- STi rear sway bar
-- STi rear LSD & axles
-- STi center diff
-- ACT 6-puck copper disk clutch
-- Cobra Suzuka seats
-- Schroth belts
-- Terratrip electronics
-- Momo steering wheel
-- Performance gauge package
-- Stainless steel brake lines
-- Porterfield brake pads
-- Rocker panel reinforcements
-- Front & rear underbody protection w/ diff guard
-- 2 piece Subaru lightpods w/ Hellas & bumper cornering pods
-- 2 1/4" exhaust, Stromung muffler, hi-flow cat
Spares:
-- 2000 2.5 RS parts car - light front end damage, salvage title -----Complete engine
-- Transmission, complete drivetrain
-- Both doors, rear qtr panels, trunk, roof, all glass, rear bumper
-- All four corner suspension, calipers, spindles, etc
-- Steering rack, subframe
New Parts:
-- L & R front control arms
-- 3 tie rod assemblies
-- 2 sets of rear suspension lateral links
-- 2 ball joints
-- 2 wheel bearings
-- Mass air flow meter
-- All belts
-- Radiator & bypass hoses
-- Extra wheel studs & nuts
-- Oil pan
-- Assortment of wheels & tires
-- Stock struts/springs
-- Stock axles
$17K OBO
Other than local rallies, I will be a newbie to the Club/Pro rally scene. This would be my first car.
Would this car be competitive in the pro/club rally scene? Are there pgt turbo restrictions in this class that place the car in a different catergory against a Wrx? Anybody outhere driven the RS in rallies? Is this a good setup for me to start with?
All comments will greatly be appreciated.
:)
-V
| Subie Gal | 04-14-2003 07:11 PM |
:) quite a car for a beginner...
that car is in my class... PGT.... and even though the WRX and the STi are in PGT (as well as the turbo DSM's and the Audi TT) the RS is still a fairly competitive car - especially at the club level.
Personally, i always advise newbies to take the 2wd put-put route when breaking into the sport...
do you really want to dish out $18k and take a risk of balling up your car on the first event?
it's best to start slow (in my opinion) and work your way up to a faster car.... the 2.5 RS may not seem quick, but on a rally stage that car can get you into trouble in a hurry...
IF you are an extremely controlled and cautious driver AND take your time getting to know the car and the ins/outs of performance rally...
AND IF you have the do$h to blow... it's not a bad car to start with... just maybe a tick too quick for a newbie....
who's car is it? i'm assuming that is an add of of ben's page?
jamie [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url] [img]http://www.subiegal.com/rallysmiley.gif[/img]
that car is in my class... PGT.... and even though the WRX and the STi are in PGT (as well as the turbo DSM's and the Audi TT) the RS is still a fairly competitive car - especially at the club level.
Personally, i always advise newbies to take the 2wd put-put route when breaking into the sport...
do you really want to dish out $18k and take a risk of balling up your car on the first event?
it's best to start slow (in my opinion) and work your way up to a faster car.... the 2.5 RS may not seem quick, but on a rally stage that car can get you into trouble in a hurry...
IF you are an extremely controlled and cautious driver AND take your time getting to know the car and the ins/outs of performance rally...
AND IF you have the do$h to blow... it's not a bad car to start with... just maybe a tick too quick for a newbie....
who's car is it? i'm assuming that is an add of of ben's page?
jamie [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url] [img]http://www.subiegal.com/rallysmiley.gif[/img]
| RRR-K2 | 04-14-2003 07:43 PM |
Hmm...
�
�
Is it located in NY? Is it blue?
I'm 99.99% sure I know whose car this is, and if it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a pretty quick car (for a non-turbo PGT car).
But like Jamie said, spending that much on your first rally car isn't the best idea (unless you have a TON of money). Don't forget that in addition to the car, you need to get suits, helmets, lisences, a tow vehicle & trailer (though they can be rented) etc. THEN you can enter an event, which will cost about $300 (for the average Coef. 2 or 3 ClubRally), plus money for gas, hotel rooms, food, service crew, time off of work, etc.
You're better off to start with a cheaper (< $5000) car and save your money for all the stuff I mentioned above.
__________________
[[email�protected]][COLOR=blue][U]Matt "RRR-K2" Kennedy[/U][/COLOR][/EMAIL]
[URL=http://www.rockyroadracing.com][U][COLOR=firebrick]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
[COLOR=indigo]1996 Subaru Impreza - ProRally PGT[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver][B]1991 Subaru Legacy - RallyCross Production 4WD[/B][/COLOR]
I'm 99.99% sure I know whose car this is, and if it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a pretty quick car (for a non-turbo PGT car).
But like Jamie said, spending that much on your first rally car isn't the best idea (unless you have a TON of money). Don't forget that in addition to the car, you need to get suits, helmets, lisences, a tow vehicle & trailer (though they can be rented) etc. THEN you can enter an event, which will cost about $300 (for the average Coef. 2 or 3 ClubRally), plus money for gas, hotel rooms, food, service crew, time off of work, etc.
You're better off to start with a cheaper (< $5000) car and save your money for all the stuff I mentioned above.
__________________
[[email�protected]][COLOR=blue][U]Matt "RRR-K2" Kennedy[/U][/COLOR][/EMAIL]
[URL=http://www.rockyroadracing.com][U][COLOR=firebrick]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
[COLOR=indigo]1996 Subaru Impreza - ProRally PGT[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver][B]1991 Subaru Legacy - RallyCross Production 4WD[/B][/COLOR]
| tifosi77 | 04-14-2003 09:34 PM |
I would tell you that the car you are looking at is a bit too much for you at this point financially and driving wise. You will be amazed at how much everything can cost. To be honest the car is not what kills you it is the little things that you never think about, insurance, trailer, tools, tires, easy up, fuel, rally computer, suits, shoes, fire extinguisher renewal. We will be running our first rally in two weeks with our starlet which we got for a 3900 dollars, parts can be found in junk yards so they are cheap, but along with entry fees and race gas we are tapped out (granted we are 35% through our group N build so that has also taxed our resources) but you should look for a car that is low horse power (easy on tranny, engine, and brakes) and low cost preferably RWD (this will teach you a lot of technique) and completely built. you are looking at a used rally car so I can see that you are going about this the right way but you would be better served getting a car (I must add buy a normally aspirated car turbo cars always require less maintenance) that was in the 5k range then you could spend the 12k that you saved on the RS in getting a nice set up that you could continue on with your next car. Remember you will find that it is more expensive then you ever could have imagined and if yo uonly sink 5k in and you find that you don't love it or it is out of your price range then you ae not stuck with an expensive car. MY BEST ADVICE WOULD BE TO NEVER RACE ON CREDIT CARDS, IF YOU CANNOT PAY CASH THEN DO NOT BUY IT, PUTTING YOURSELF INTO DEBT TO GO RACE IS A VERY GOOD WAY TO RUIN YOUR FINANCES BECASE RACING WILL ALMOST NEVER PAY FOR ITSELF.
Have fun and if you ever need any help feel free to email me.
Have fun and if you ever need any help feel free to email me.
| Rovah | 04-15-2003 08:24 AM |
I like the credit card comment! Very well said! :-)
If you haven't yet, spend your cash on a rally school, like Tim O'Neils in NH. If you have great! If not, then do that FIRST! I cannot emphasize this enough! You can then decide what direction you want to go in with a car.
It's best to start slow first. This is a relative term. A VW Golf is not a slow rally car. Front wheel drive is a great way to start and hone your driving skill while not having to shell out for expensive repairs.
Per event cost can run you anywhere from $1k to $4K. Keep that in mind.
Cheers! John
If you haven't yet, spend your cash on a rally school, like Tim O'Neils in NH. If you have great! If not, then do that FIRST! I cannot emphasize this enough! You can then decide what direction you want to go in with a car.
It's best to start slow first. This is a relative term. A VW Golf is not a slow rally car. Front wheel drive is a great way to start and hone your driving skill while not having to shell out for expensive repairs.
Per event cost can run you anywhere from $1k to $4K. Keep that in mind.
Cheers! John
| iceweazel | 04-15-2003 03:24 PM |
Must be Bottoms car. Haven't co-driven in it, although I've had the opportunity. Jon did QUITE well in that car. He's an up and comer.
If you have to start out awd, this is a good place/car to do it in.
Decently prepared, decent but not outlandish power.
Could be a decent learning experience.
This car will start and probably end up being better than your
driving skills. In a moderately prepared (ie: stock engine) RS
Randy Zimmer and I were as high as 10th before our tranny
cracked open at a Pro. Placing us in the middle of the turbo
field. So yes, it COULD be competitive. With the right driver. ;)
So go become that guy.
I'd say budget 1.5-2,500 per rally and see what you can afford.
Ed
If you have to start out awd, this is a good place/car to do it in.
Decently prepared, decent but not outlandish power.
Could be a decent learning experience.
This car will start and probably end up being better than your
driving skills. In a moderately prepared (ie: stock engine) RS
Randy Zimmer and I were as high as 10th before our tranny
cracked open at a Pro. Placing us in the middle of the turbo
field. So yes, it COULD be competitive. With the right driver. ;)
So go become that guy.
I'd say budget 1.5-2,500 per rally and see what you can afford.
Ed
| rallystud | 04-15-2003 05:20 PM |
If you buy a awd car...........make sure you have alot of $$$$$ to take care of it. You will learn more from a 2 wheel drive car with less grip and power.
| sube151 | 04-15-2003 06:03 PM |
Wow! :eek: Really good input here.
What to do though!!!
I currently have my Wrx for sale. I had thought about
using $10000 from the sale to pay for the 2.5Rs, and borrowing a little from a home equity loan that I got for my house.
I am starting to wonder if I actually need the spare parts car that is included in the package. From all the suggestions everybody has mentioned, I feel like I'll probably take baby steps with the car and not plan to jump right into a full fleged event such as RIM or Pikes peak. So I may not need all the spares right off the bat.
According to Bottoms, the car is in mechanically good shape. The motor runs strong, and the tranny is currently in the process of being rebuilt. Its got its share of dents and scratches, but I would assume this is very normal.
I'm also sort of worried about buying too many cars. My original thoughts about the awd RS was that I could probably use it for a while. I dont really have the space to store my collection of rally cars. I have a little civic hybrid with the DOHC b16 I could probably use. Its going to need a lot put into it though. Is it realistic to have a rally car for a while (without the fact of wrapping the car around a tree or something)?
I also plan to attend rally school this year with a friend. I'll probably take the 2-3 day class that they have up in NH.
I may see if something can be worked out with not including the parts car. If its meant to be, it will work, if not...life goes on :)
Do you guys think that it would be a good idea to perhaps rally cross the car for a while?
(Thanks so much for the input guys. Really makes the gears turn
in the brain department. :p )
What to do though!!!
I currently have my Wrx for sale. I had thought about
using $10000 from the sale to pay for the 2.5Rs, and borrowing a little from a home equity loan that I got for my house.
I am starting to wonder if I actually need the spare parts car that is included in the package. From all the suggestions everybody has mentioned, I feel like I'll probably take baby steps with the car and not plan to jump right into a full fleged event such as RIM or Pikes peak. So I may not need all the spares right off the bat.
According to Bottoms, the car is in mechanically good shape. The motor runs strong, and the tranny is currently in the process of being rebuilt. Its got its share of dents and scratches, but I would assume this is very normal.
I'm also sort of worried about buying too many cars. My original thoughts about the awd RS was that I could probably use it for a while. I dont really have the space to store my collection of rally cars. I have a little civic hybrid with the DOHC b16 I could probably use. Its going to need a lot put into it though. Is it realistic to have a rally car for a while (without the fact of wrapping the car around a tree or something)?
I also plan to attend rally school this year with a friend. I'll probably take the 2-3 day class that they have up in NH.
I may see if something can be worked out with not including the parts car. If its meant to be, it will work, if not...life goes on :)
Do you guys think that it would be a good idea to perhaps rally cross the car for a while?
(Thanks so much for the input guys. Really makes the gears turn
in the brain department. :p )
| tifosi77 | 04-15-2003 07:51 PM |
I would tell yo uthat you will definitely want the parts car, you can never have too many spares. I know that an older car (corolla GTS, Starlet, Golf, neon, sentra ser, focus) these are all cheap 2wd cars that you can find easily, there are tons in the junk yards so spares will be cheap and plentiful. Remember that low HP does not mean slow it just means that for the most part you will have fewer wear and tear mechanical issues. You will become a much better driver if you start with a 2wd car, you will definiteely see the difference later on when yo uare able to make the switch to AWD. You said that you had a b16 honda (a civicc is a good light car that could be rallied and yo ualready have it, there are thousands in the junkyard) also you mentioned that you were going to get 10k from selling a car and borrow a little from home equity, instead why don't you buy a good built car [url]www.bensrallypage.com[/url] for 5-6k and spend the rest on a traile, suits, helmets, etc. . Take it from a person that jumped into the deep end right away, I decided to go group N right away and went that direction I have spent over 20k and I have not raced one stage mile, the whole process was just frustrating. I decided to put that project on hold, and co-drive every CRS round this year which includes two big events Rim and Laughlin to learn the systems and organization, when my driver was unable to compete this year Ihad decided to race and couldn't find a co-driving seat open so I found the starlet and bought it, now that I am almost ready for rim I know that I will race this year, my bank isn't busted, and most of all I am going to have fun. Please heed my advice buy a 5-6k car and have fun then if you find that you can afford to race then move up it is a shame when people buy such and expensive car and then they have one crash and then they don't race for a year or two because they don't have the time and money to fix it. Whatever you do I know that it is hard but do not borrow any money to go race you will regret it. If you have to have an AWD car there are several 323 GTX that are for sale though they are not the most reliable cars.
| outback2.5HO | 04-15-2003 08:00 PM |
I agree with what about everything that's been mentioned.:D
1. Don't buy a car that you aren't willing to "donate" to the cause (wad into a tree, roll, etc..)
2. Be prepared for lots of expenses as far as safety gear, entry fees, tires, a truck/ trailer w/ winch to haul it with (when you wad it, you'll wish you had one), spare parts, etc... Rallying gets spendy quickly...:(
3. It is a great platform to start with, but could be a handful on your first stage if you are not used to pitching it around at speed. A 2.2 Impreza or Legacy would also be a good platform to run, and be able to learn technique and finish races. Parts are also less for 2.2 cars.;)
4. VW Golf/Rabbits are good platforms also. There are some damn fast VWs out there (Scott Fuller's 300+hp Golf), but FWD isn't for everyone. My first car was a GTI and it wound up on the roof eventually... :( VWs do like to roll.
5. Start at a Club Rally event, they are much more forgiving than Pro events. They are for the Grassroots Rallyists out there, it's a great way to meet and bond with fellow enthusiasts. You'll learn tons from everyone, they all want to help. Wish we did that...Oregon Trail was quite a leap into rallying. Did you know you can get fined for being late to the "Parc Expose"? It almost cost us $100, but they cut us some slack...
6. If you are ready to "sponsor" your race team, and "donate" your car to the cause, and learn tons about rallying, GO FOR IT!!!:D :) :disco:
1. Don't buy a car that you aren't willing to "donate" to the cause (wad into a tree, roll, etc..)
2. Be prepared for lots of expenses as far as safety gear, entry fees, tires, a truck/ trailer w/ winch to haul it with (when you wad it, you'll wish you had one), spare parts, etc... Rallying gets spendy quickly...:(
3. It is a great platform to start with, but could be a handful on your first stage if you are not used to pitching it around at speed. A 2.2 Impreza or Legacy would also be a good platform to run, and be able to learn technique and finish races. Parts are also less for 2.2 cars.;)
4. VW Golf/Rabbits are good platforms also. There are some damn fast VWs out there (Scott Fuller's 300+hp Golf), but FWD isn't for everyone. My first car was a GTI and it wound up on the roof eventually... :( VWs do like to roll.
5. Start at a Club Rally event, they are much more forgiving than Pro events. They are for the Grassroots Rallyists out there, it's a great way to meet and bond with fellow enthusiasts. You'll learn tons from everyone, they all want to help. Wish we did that...Oregon Trail was quite a leap into rallying. Did you know you can get fined for being late to the "Parc Expose"? It almost cost us $100, but they cut us some slack...
6. If you are ready to "sponsor" your race team, and "donate" your car to the cause, and learn tons about rallying, GO FOR IT!!!:D :) :disco:
| KeithRS | 04-15-2003 08:45 PM |
One other thing to consider:
From the 2003 clubrally rulebook (which you can download in a [url=http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/03rulebook/index.html]big .pdf[/url] from scca.org and should study):
[quote]
All required primary roll cage elements (including diagonals and side bars) must be constructed from seamless DOM, CRW, WHR, or WCR mild carbon steel.
(5.5.C.2)
[/quote]
You should check with your local clubrally steward and see if the cage material might be a problem when it comes time to get a logbook (the car may very well be grandfathered in, but you really should ask). There was a big stink about the SCCA not embracing cromoly steel for cages, because it is the Metal of the Gods (maybe something about not being able to heat treat the welds?). Other than that, it sounds like a sweet car and would be a ton of fun to rally (and finding 2.5RS parts shouldn't be too hard).
From the 2003 clubrally rulebook (which you can download in a [url=http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/03rulebook/index.html]big .pdf[/url] from scca.org and should study):
[quote]
All required primary roll cage elements (including diagonals and side bars) must be constructed from seamless DOM, CRW, WHR, or WCR mild carbon steel.
(5.5.C.2)
[/quote]
You should check with your local clubrally steward and see if the cage material might be a problem when it comes time to get a logbook (the car may very well be grandfathered in, but you really should ask). There was a big stink about the SCCA not embracing cromoly steel for cages, because it is the Metal of the Gods (maybe something about not being able to heat treat the welds?). Other than that, it sounds like a sweet car and would be a ton of fun to rally (and finding 2.5RS parts shouldn't be too hard).
| tifosi77 | 04-15-2003 08:48 PM |
exactly, you can be fined up to the cost of your entry fee if your visual ID package(stickers) does not conform. Like I said in my first post it isn't the car it is a couple of hundred for entry, tires, suits, helmets, tow, rooms, gas (5 bucks a gallon isn't cheap). I would love it if more people would rally but I just don't want to see someone come in and not enjoy it.
| whitenoise77 | 04-16-2003 01:04 PM |
What do you guys think about buliding a rally car from a 1988 Toyota celica GTS. Those cars are cheap, and since it's a Toyota it will be reliable.
I want to get started in some rally events, but the cost of getting a car to the starting line very expensive.
Is there a car the experience drivers recommend to a newbie?
I want to get started in some rally events, but the cost of getting a car to the starting line very expensive.
Is there a car the experience drivers recommend to a newbie?
| rallystud | 04-16-2003 01:06 PM |
VW Rabbit........they are fast and cheap. :disco:
| WHTWRX | 04-16-2003 01:11 PM |
Buy a VW for $500, and invest $1k at most in suspension upgrades.
You don't need to go fast your first season, you need to learn how the sport works and how to stay on the road.
Consider this your throwaway car, cuz you will be doing just that after 1-2 seasons.
Heed Jamie's advice, save the $17k for later.
You don't need to go fast your first season, you need to learn how the sport works and how to stay on the road.
Consider this your throwaway car, cuz you will be doing just that after 1-2 seasons.
Heed Jamie's advice, save the $17k for later.
| iceweazel | 04-16-2003 02:35 PM |
-SCCA logbooks go WITH the car when sold. It will need a new
inspection, but should already have its CARS, FIA, or SCCA logbook. With Jon its mostly likely SCCA. Examine all the comments from the last few events it was teched at.
This will tell you what the history is. Should have all finishes,
DNS/DNFs, and any mention of work required.
-All cage rules are grandfathered AT THE MOMENT. So
they only apply to cars going for a new book. (not a replacement for a full one either) This may change however. I've seen this car, the cage was OK.
-Never, ever, _EVER_ build your 1st rally car. It's not worth it.
Build your 2nd or 3rd once you understand things better.
Its much simpler to spend the time examining everyone else cars
to see what you like/dislike before you build your own.
-don't buy a car you cannot afford to wad up. IE: never race a car you haven't paid off and can't afford to toss most everything from.
It doesn't happen often, but it can. One good stump can end your car.
-don't mess with VW rabbits any more. too old, metal fatigue is too real with these now. too much chasis flex as well. If you want to do G2 in a VW, buy or build a later A2 chasis like a 92 golf.
trust me here. (a2 chasis is 85-91/92-94(updated))
Now on the plus side, I've been in an RS that flipped and went off a mountainside, and slid 80+ feet down and sat upside down for like 8 hours.
We added a quart of oil and drove it home once it was hauled up.
RS's are pretty damn tough. Try that with a normal engine ;)
Ask rallydave about that one. He was the co-driver when they went off.
I typically tell folks to start with a 2wd cheap car they buy.
But lately there are enough nice inexpensive (3k$ last fall)
PGT cars to go around. While I wouldn't consider this one inexpensive, it does come with a spare car, and is fairly well prepared to start. It looks like a nice package. Well,
except for the Terratrip. :devil: Get a real odo for your co-driver.
And understand with the WRX in PGT now, the days of very competitive RS's are much shortened. Then again its not a bad thing to have a tougher engine either.
There are tons of hidden costs in rally no one thinks about:
replacement roll bar padding on occasion, fire extinguisher
renewal ($40 that can keep you from competing!), new belts or tags, tires, tires, tires, oil changes and filters (dusty and off road environs SERIOUSLY degrade the oil lifetime), etc.
Ed
-FIA, CARS, SCCA rally co-driver
-SCCA driver (club only)
-90 audi cq, 02 wrx, 85 Golf AWD synchro rally car
inspection, but should already have its CARS, FIA, or SCCA logbook. With Jon its mostly likely SCCA. Examine all the comments from the last few events it was teched at.
This will tell you what the history is. Should have all finishes,
DNS/DNFs, and any mention of work required.
-All cage rules are grandfathered AT THE MOMENT. So
they only apply to cars going for a new book. (not a replacement for a full one either) This may change however. I've seen this car, the cage was OK.
-Never, ever, _EVER_ build your 1st rally car. It's not worth it.
Build your 2nd or 3rd once you understand things better.
Its much simpler to spend the time examining everyone else cars
to see what you like/dislike before you build your own.
-don't buy a car you cannot afford to wad up. IE: never race a car you haven't paid off and can't afford to toss most everything from.
It doesn't happen often, but it can. One good stump can end your car.
-don't mess with VW rabbits any more. too old, metal fatigue is too real with these now. too much chasis flex as well. If you want to do G2 in a VW, buy or build a later A2 chasis like a 92 golf.
trust me here. (a2 chasis is 85-91/92-94(updated))
Now on the plus side, I've been in an RS that flipped and went off a mountainside, and slid 80+ feet down and sat upside down for like 8 hours.
We added a quart of oil and drove it home once it was hauled up.
RS's are pretty damn tough. Try that with a normal engine ;)
Ask rallydave about that one. He was the co-driver when they went off.
I typically tell folks to start with a 2wd cheap car they buy.
But lately there are enough nice inexpensive (3k$ last fall)
PGT cars to go around. While I wouldn't consider this one inexpensive, it does come with a spare car, and is fairly well prepared to start. It looks like a nice package. Well,
except for the Terratrip. :devil: Get a real odo for your co-driver.
And understand with the WRX in PGT now, the days of very competitive RS's are much shortened. Then again its not a bad thing to have a tougher engine either.
There are tons of hidden costs in rally no one thinks about:
replacement roll bar padding on occasion, fire extinguisher
renewal ($40 that can keep you from competing!), new belts or tags, tires, tires, tires, oil changes and filters (dusty and off road environs SERIOUSLY degrade the oil lifetime), etc.
Ed
-FIA, CARS, SCCA rally co-driver
-SCCA driver (club only)
-90 audi cq, 02 wrx, 85 Golf AWD synchro rally car
| travmn | 04-16-2003 04:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tifosi77 [/i]
[B]exactly, you can be fined up to the cost of your entry fee if your visual ID package(stickers) does not conform. Like I said in my first post it isn't the car it is a couple of hundred for entry, tires, suits, helmets, tow, rooms, gas (5 bucks a gallon isn't cheap). I would love it if more people would rally but I just don't want to see someone come in and not enjoy it. [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah, but that's not a "huge" issue till you hit prorally when the ID kits are required.
that said, I'd advice not to buy such a car to start rally in. listen to what everyone said. then listen some more. then go to specialstage. hear more... then look at the specialstage and ben's rally page classifieds. find a prepped golf, gti, omni, etc. for cheap (someone is selling a prepared 85 golf right now for a reasonable cost), get a parts car, etc..
same saying goes for rallying as does motorcycling
"there are those who have crashed, and those that will"
except you can change that for rallying to be the following:
"there are those who have gone to an event to run and nothing works, and those that will"
"there are those who have hit a tree and wrecked their car, and those that will"
"there are those that have rolled over, and those that will"
"there are those that have engines/turbos/what not blow up/die, and those that will"
basically, it's just like any form of racing... it's expensive... stuff breaks... especially when you least expect it. except there are trees, lakes, and drop offs involved...
it's a lot of fun, but there's a lot to it
[B]exactly, you can be fined up to the cost of your entry fee if your visual ID package(stickers) does not conform. Like I said in my first post it isn't the car it is a couple of hundred for entry, tires, suits, helmets, tow, rooms, gas (5 bucks a gallon isn't cheap). I would love it if more people would rally but I just don't want to see someone come in and not enjoy it. [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah, but that's not a "huge" issue till you hit prorally when the ID kits are required.
that said, I'd advice not to buy such a car to start rally in. listen to what everyone said. then listen some more. then go to specialstage. hear more... then look at the specialstage and ben's rally page classifieds. find a prepped golf, gti, omni, etc. for cheap (someone is selling a prepared 85 golf right now for a reasonable cost), get a parts car, etc..
same saying goes for rallying as does motorcycling
"there are those who have crashed, and those that will"
except you can change that for rallying to be the following:
"there are those who have gone to an event to run and nothing works, and those that will"
"there are those who have hit a tree and wrecked their car, and those that will"
"there are those that have rolled over, and those that will"
"there are those that have engines/turbos/what not blow up/die, and those that will"
basically, it's just like any form of racing... it's expensive... stuff breaks... especially when you least expect it. except there are trees, lakes, and drop offs involved...
it's a lot of fun, but there's a lot to it
| tifosi77 | 04-16-2003 05:30 PM |
I have found the perfect starter rally car for you follow this link this is exactly the type of car you need.
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID14/620.html[/url]
FOr the person asking about the Celica you would be better off running a starlet or Corolla GTS since they are RWD and considerably lighter. IF anyone would like to do a starlet I have a line on a shell for 500 dollars, throw in another couple of grand and you will have a cheap, reliable, strong car. IF you are going to do a celica let me know I have a good line on a lot of toyota parts.
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID14/620.html[/url]
FOr the person asking about the Celica you would be better off running a starlet or Corolla GTS since they are RWD and considerably lighter. IF anyone would like to do a starlet I have a line on a shell for 500 dollars, throw in another couple of grand and you will have a cheap, reliable, strong car. IF you are going to do a celica let me know I have a good line on a lot of toyota parts.
| randy zimmer | 04-17-2003 09:00 AM |
Buy it!
�
�
I know Jon's car and it is well done and first class all the way, no expense spared. The cage is a copy of mine and so is pretty much the whole car (except for the expensive stuff). It is also stock enough that you'll have no trouble doing a full season without failures. Being a Subaru, it is a tank. If you don't damage it by hitting things, it'll run and run.
I haven't read all the preceeding stuff yet but I'm sure there's the obligatory 2wd and rabbit suggestions. Really outdated if you ask me. 4wd is what rally is in the present, you get out of ditches without help and gain seed quicker. German 2wd are expensive, slow unless driven by great drivers and more breakable than some lead you to believe.
If you are a Sube fan, it makes no sense to go anywhere else, these cars were built for dirt and Jon's is a great, tested car with all the right stuff to make the sport as cheap as possible to compete in.
rz
added,
pick it up on the way to Tim's.
I haven't read all the preceeding stuff yet but I'm sure there's the obligatory 2wd and rabbit suggestions. Really outdated if you ask me. 4wd is what rally is in the present, you get out of ditches without help and gain seed quicker. German 2wd are expensive, slow unless driven by great drivers and more breakable than some lead you to believe.
If you are a Sube fan, it makes no sense to go anywhere else, these cars were built for dirt and Jon's is a great, tested car with all the right stuff to make the sport as cheap as possible to compete in.
rz
added,
pick it up on the way to Tim's.
| travmn | 04-17-2003 09:21 AM |
randy, you can't be serious??? outdated?? i don't think that can explain the S1600 class cars, nor the fact that a lot of the great WRC drivers (and N.A.) started out in 2wd. starting out in 4wd doesn't help you out at all. Sure, it makes you get out of situations easier. It also masks driving deficiencies since it's easier to get around them. If you want to be a good driver, there is no place to start BUT a 2wd car. it's not outdated thinking. that said, I've seen my fair share of suby parts break on the rally stages. they aren't indestructible. nothing is.
| randy zimmer | 04-17-2003 09:49 AM |
US rally
�
�
I'm completely serious.
I rally here in the US, there is no ss1600 and the SCCA seeding system has no interest in 2wd cars.
This makes you a backmarker forever and running in ruts.
I have rallied a 2.5 RS on 30 or more rallys, half of them Pros. The cars you've seen broken were probably modded turbo cars I'd suspect. I'll match my finishing record with the RS with anyone's.
I have first hand experience racing my car three years which is a near-twin and even drove the car he's asking about at a rallyX... now, what is it that YOU know?
BTW, I make $12 an hour in a job that lets me have time off to travel to racing whenever I need to and I've found a way to compete, I couldn't afford a less sturdy car.
It isn't your money, it it his, he asked for advice not a debate.
RZ
I rally here in the US, there is no ss1600 and the SCCA seeding system has no interest in 2wd cars.
This makes you a backmarker forever and running in ruts.
I have rallied a 2.5 RS on 30 or more rallys, half of them Pros. The cars you've seen broken were probably modded turbo cars I'd suspect. I'll match my finishing record with the RS with anyone's.
I have first hand experience racing my car three years which is a near-twin and even drove the car he's asking about at a rallyX... now, what is it that YOU know?
BTW, I make $12 an hour in a job that lets me have time off to travel to racing whenever I need to and I've found a way to compete, I couldn't afford a less sturdy car.
It isn't your money, it it his, he asked for advice not a debate.
RZ
| randy zimmer | 04-17-2003 09:55 AM |
US rally
�
�
I'm completely serious.
I rally here in the US, there is no ss1600 and the SCCA seeding system has no interest in 2wd cars.
This makes you a backmarker forever and running in ruts.
I have rallied a 2.5 RS on 30 or more rallys, half of them Pros. The cars you've seen broken were probably modded turbo cars I'd suspect. I'll match my finishing record with the RS with anyone's.
I have first hand experience racing my car three years which is a near-twin and even drove the car he's asking about at a rallyX... now, what is it that YOU know?
BTW, I make $12 an hour in a job that lets me have time off to travel to racing whenever I need to and I've found a way to compete, I couldn't afford a less sturdy car.
It isn't your money, it it his, he asked for advice not a debate.
RZ
I rally here in the US, there is no ss1600 and the SCCA seeding system has no interest in 2wd cars.
This makes you a backmarker forever and running in ruts.
I have rallied a 2.5 RS on 30 or more rallys, half of them Pros. The cars you've seen broken were probably modded turbo cars I'd suspect. I'll match my finishing record with the RS with anyone's.
I have first hand experience racing my car three years which is a near-twin and even drove the car he's asking about at a rallyX... now, what is it that YOU know?
BTW, I make $12 an hour in a job that lets me have time off to travel to racing whenever I need to and I've found a way to compete, I couldn't afford a less sturdy car.
It isn't your money, it it his, he asked for advice not a debate.
RZ
| travmn | 04-17-2003 10:57 AM |
Re: US rally
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]
This makes you a backmarker forever and running in ruts.[/B][/QUOTE]
i don't want to debate you randy. i've seen you race before. but I myself am quite sick of the mold of "you gotta be in a suby or a mitsu". that's fine if you want to be in a suby or mitsu, and be like everyone else out there. but there are a lot of people starting out in these kinds of cars that can't drive and are, IMHO, limiting themselves long term. I know for a fact that I won't be a good driver just driving a awd suby out of the gate.
I also must contest your statement about being a backmarker forever. True, it's very unlikely you'll get in the Top 10 in a 20 year old car. But you'll build skills and be able to keep a budget that will give you an edge when you're ready to move up.
[B]
This makes you a backmarker forever and running in ruts.[/B][/QUOTE]
i don't want to debate you randy. i've seen you race before. but I myself am quite sick of the mold of "you gotta be in a suby or a mitsu". that's fine if you want to be in a suby or mitsu, and be like everyone else out there. but there are a lot of people starting out in these kinds of cars that can't drive and are, IMHO, limiting themselves long term. I know for a fact that I won't be a good driver just driving a awd suby out of the gate.
I also must contest your statement about being a backmarker forever. True, it's very unlikely you'll get in the Top 10 in a 20 year old car. But you'll build skills and be able to keep a budget that will give you an edge when you're ready to move up.
| randy zimmer | 04-17-2003 11:10 AM |
not arguing
�
�
You said, "a lot of people are starting out in this type of car".
I don't think that's accurate. There a a lot of turbo cars out there but not too many NA 2.5's. Pat Richard did pretty good with one so that was my template. Jon is doing OK with the car that's for sale and now John Cassidy has one and Anders Green is almost done with his. I can't think of many more but I'm sure there are. That is not a lot.
I guess I'd have to ask Cassidy about switching from 2wd to 4wd and soon, Anders. I never rallied anything else so I can't compare tecnique. I wanted reliability over all else and I got it.
rz
I don't think that's accurate. There a a lot of turbo cars out there but not too many NA 2.5's. Pat Richard did pretty good with one so that was my template. Jon is doing OK with the car that's for sale and now John Cassidy has one and Anders Green is almost done with his. I can't think of many more but I'm sure there are. That is not a lot.
I guess I'd have to ask Cassidy about switching from 2wd to 4wd and soon, Anders. I never rallied anything else so I can't compare tecnique. I wanted reliability over all else and I got it.
rz
| Subie Gal | 04-17-2003 11:33 AM |
true that....
*you will have less engine/complications in the 2.5
*awd is the wave of Rally right now
*Pat R did well in a 2.5... but that was BEFORE the days of the WRX ;)
and i disagree that...
one should start in a car this fast :)
or that one should start in AWD...
not everyone understands the complexity of driving at speed on a rally stage. not everyone understands the costs needed to compete. i have found that it's a GOOD route to start in 2wd - slower, less expensive car - learn to drive a slow car fast.... when you make that leap into AWD... the concept of DRIVING the stages is there, and now you have the added bonus of the rear wheels to save you ;)
but starting out in an 18k car? just not a good idea if you have no experience. I have no idea regarding person that started this thread and what experience level he's at... BUT... if he's just getting started? and 18k car is IMHO too much car to start with.
I tend to go against the grain in that i did build my first car, but I was not green to the sport, and i knew what i was getting into. All in all that was a $7-8k car.. and very likely what this person should be looking at getting into... as we KNOW there will be offs, oopsies and gotchas.
It's an interesting subject of discussion, and i'm sure we could debate for hours - but in the end, it's just a matter of opinion.
Jamie [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url] [img]http://www.subiegal.com/rallysmiley.gif[/img]
*you will have less engine/complications in the 2.5
*awd is the wave of Rally right now
*Pat R did well in a 2.5... but that was BEFORE the days of the WRX ;)
and i disagree that...
one should start in a car this fast :)
or that one should start in AWD...
not everyone understands the complexity of driving at speed on a rally stage. not everyone understands the costs needed to compete. i have found that it's a GOOD route to start in 2wd - slower, less expensive car - learn to drive a slow car fast.... when you make that leap into AWD... the concept of DRIVING the stages is there, and now you have the added bonus of the rear wheels to save you ;)
but starting out in an 18k car? just not a good idea if you have no experience. I have no idea regarding person that started this thread and what experience level he's at... BUT... if he's just getting started? and 18k car is IMHO too much car to start with.
I tend to go against the grain in that i did build my first car, but I was not green to the sport, and i knew what i was getting into. All in all that was a $7-8k car.. and very likely what this person should be looking at getting into... as we KNOW there will be offs, oopsies and gotchas.
It's an interesting subject of discussion, and i'm sure we could debate for hours - but in the end, it's just a matter of opinion.
Jamie [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url] [img]http://www.subiegal.com/rallysmiley.gif[/img]
| travmn | 04-17-2003 01:00 PM |
Re: Found rally car to buy. Need opionions
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sube151 [/i]
[B]Other than local rallies, I will be a newbie to the Club/Pro rally scene. This would be my first car. [/B][/QUOTE]
just felt i'd give a bump to the original part of his post...
btw, sube151, yes the rs would be competitive. but unless you are willing to possibly "throw away" that amount of money (and i'm not saying throwing away, you are still getting a car, i'm just relating to the fact that you are going to be racing and there is always a strong possibility of damaging the car)...
that said, i would love to rally my wrx wagon. but sanity prevents me from using a $25k car to race. that's why i have a less expensive XR to play with for those things
[B]Other than local rallies, I will be a newbie to the Club/Pro rally scene. This would be my first car. [/B][/QUOTE]
just felt i'd give a bump to the original part of his post...
btw, sube151, yes the rs would be competitive. but unless you are willing to possibly "throw away" that amount of money (and i'm not saying throwing away, you are still getting a car, i'm just relating to the fact that you are going to be racing and there is always a strong possibility of damaging the car)...
that said, i would love to rally my wrx wagon. but sanity prevents me from using a $25k car to race. that's why i have a less expensive XR to play with for those things
| outback2.5HO | 04-17-2003 02:15 PM |
Oh boy what a can of worms...;)
Anyway,
I agree with Randy in that the 2.5 is a solid powerplant with plenty of capability and reliability (with the exception of the head gasket issue). It is still competetive with the WRX if driven well. Overall, the 2.5 and 2.2s have far fewer mechanical issues than EJ20s of any sort. Also agree that many of the DNFs/mech. failures on Subies are turbo cars of some sort. There is a lot to be said about finishing races...;)
As far as Jaime's comments go, starting with an inexpensive car is a good thing. You don't feel so bad when it gets smacked.:rolleyes: With the building of your own car, some people have the skills/knowledge to build a car right, and others don't. Personally, I wouldn't have done it any other way than to build my own car, but also have significant mechanical/technical/welding experience. It's so great to finish races in a car you built from scratch. But building a cage to SCCA spec can be challenging. You also know everything about your car when you need to rebuild it, vs. tearing it down for the first time after you bend a control arm or something else...;)
As far as the "*Pat R did well in a 2.5... but that was BEFORE the days of the WRX " comment, don't think I completely agree with the 2.5 being out of the game. If the WRX breaks often (more than N/A powerplants), than what does it matter if you have a turbo and more HP if you don't finish races? The torque in a 2.5 or 2.2 is there right now, not after 3,000 rpm, you don't have to wait for boost, or have boost spikes in the middle of a turn... :( My '90 Legacy 2.2 is a competent car on the stages, not the fastest car out there but has enough to be competetive, and is very predictable. Now my '92 turbo drives completely different in the dirt than the N/A Beast in the turns (and straights too), the car can be handful when it boosts at the wrong time (so can a WRX)...At any rate, the reliability issue is my main concern that is keeping me from turning that '92 into a PGT car, but those 2.2 turbos are easier to work on than and more reliable than the EJ20....;)
In a perfect world I'd have a 250+HP N/A Subie. Something with good torque, HP, and reliability. I've built some pretty potent 2.5s, and they are impressive to drive, and last. In all my years of working on Subies, I've seen far more problems with forced induction cars than N/A powerplants. Turbos definately haul butt, with a sacrifice in reliability. Also, with the SCCA regs, and the turbo restrictors getting smaller, an RS and a WRX are on a pretty level playing field anymore. Now the STI, that's a different story...:lol:
Anyway,
I agree with Randy in that the 2.5 is a solid powerplant with plenty of capability and reliability (with the exception of the head gasket issue). It is still competetive with the WRX if driven well. Overall, the 2.5 and 2.2s have far fewer mechanical issues than EJ20s of any sort. Also agree that many of the DNFs/mech. failures on Subies are turbo cars of some sort. There is a lot to be said about finishing races...;)
As far as Jaime's comments go, starting with an inexpensive car is a good thing. You don't feel so bad when it gets smacked.:rolleyes: With the building of your own car, some people have the skills/knowledge to build a car right, and others don't. Personally, I wouldn't have done it any other way than to build my own car, but also have significant mechanical/technical/welding experience. It's so great to finish races in a car you built from scratch. But building a cage to SCCA spec can be challenging. You also know everything about your car when you need to rebuild it, vs. tearing it down for the first time after you bend a control arm or something else...;)
As far as the "*Pat R did well in a 2.5... but that was BEFORE the days of the WRX " comment, don't think I completely agree with the 2.5 being out of the game. If the WRX breaks often (more than N/A powerplants), than what does it matter if you have a turbo and more HP if you don't finish races? The torque in a 2.5 or 2.2 is there right now, not after 3,000 rpm, you don't have to wait for boost, or have boost spikes in the middle of a turn... :( My '90 Legacy 2.2 is a competent car on the stages, not the fastest car out there but has enough to be competetive, and is very predictable. Now my '92 turbo drives completely different in the dirt than the N/A Beast in the turns (and straights too), the car can be handful when it boosts at the wrong time (so can a WRX)...At any rate, the reliability issue is my main concern that is keeping me from turning that '92 into a PGT car, but those 2.2 turbos are easier to work on than and more reliable than the EJ20....;)
In a perfect world I'd have a 250+HP N/A Subie. Something with good torque, HP, and reliability. I've built some pretty potent 2.5s, and they are impressive to drive, and last. In all my years of working on Subies, I've seen far more problems with forced induction cars than N/A powerplants. Turbos definately haul butt, with a sacrifice in reliability. Also, with the SCCA regs, and the turbo restrictors getting smaller, an RS and a WRX are on a pretty level playing field anymore. Now the STI, that's a different story...:lol:
| sube151 | 04-17-2003 06:30 PM |
I think the worms have spilled out of the can :p
One of the main points is that pricing can be a killer when going into a rally. If you could buy an Impreza turbo for $3K, I'm sure many newbies would be buying them regardless of their talents.
Thats not the case though.
For the folks that started 2wd here....
I think the main point is that you learned more about racing in the event than how to handle the car. Does that sound right?
From my experience, my Fwd off road required completely different driving than my awd vehicle did. I would assume that someone seasoned in fwd would have to relearn some driving techniques to transition to awd.
I dont consider myself to be a fearless driver. I have a lot of respect for unknown circumstances while driving(realizing that anything *could* happen). The benifit of a bigger budget from a cheap car does stand out though. More than 2wd/awd differences.
Do the ralliest who rally out there find avenues for sponsor ship?
Is it from folks you know (time spent networking with people?), or from places you have pursued? Is there interest in the different regions for local sponsorship?
:)
-V
One of the main points is that pricing can be a killer when going into a rally. If you could buy an Impreza turbo for $3K, I'm sure many newbies would be buying them regardless of their talents.
Thats not the case though.
For the folks that started 2wd here....
I think the main point is that you learned more about racing in the event than how to handle the car. Does that sound right?
From my experience, my Fwd off road required completely different driving than my awd vehicle did. I would assume that someone seasoned in fwd would have to relearn some driving techniques to transition to awd.
I dont consider myself to be a fearless driver. I have a lot of respect for unknown circumstances while driving(realizing that anything *could* happen). The benifit of a bigger budget from a cheap car does stand out though. More than 2wd/awd differences.
Do the ralliest who rally out there find avenues for sponsor ship?
Is it from folks you know (time spent networking with people?), or from places you have pursued? Is there interest in the different regions for local sponsorship?
:)
-V
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét