| Machine | 10-16-2005 11:41 PM |
Front wheel Bearings bad - Autocross-related?
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Seems that my front wheel bearings are gone - right front seems worst. Haven't pulled them yet, but that's sure what it sounds like.
I don't have any difficulty at all in suspecting this is due to the stresses of autocross. I run D Stock with Kumho Victo's and OTS Konis and a 22mm front bar. I know that the front tires are doing all the work - just corded my right front tire at the Subaru Challenge up here in Maryland.
Anyone else experienced this?
Could it be something else besides the wheel bearings?
Thanks,
Bill Taylor
DS WRX
Wash DC Region SCCA
I don't have any difficulty at all in suspecting this is due to the stresses of autocross. I run D Stock with Kumho Victo's and OTS Konis and a 22mm front bar. I know that the front tires are doing all the work - just corded my right front tire at the Subaru Challenge up here in Maryland.
Anyone else experienced this?
Could it be something else besides the wheel bearings?
Thanks,
Bill Taylor
DS WRX
Wash DC Region SCCA
| makofoto | 10-17-2005 12:16 AM |
This is pretty common ... the STI that ran the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring required two front bearing changes during that one event!
Apparently there are no upgrade bearings but Suby Specialties out here dissolves away the oem grease and replaces it with high temperature racing bearing grease.
I thought that my use of R tires and 15 mm H&R Spacers might have accelerated my wear ... but I know a STI/STU owner using street tires having to replace his before 10K. Warranty covered that one. Mine went out after about 32 K ... perhaps as many as 500+ AX runs.
Apparently there are no upgrade bearings but Suby Specialties out here dissolves away the oem grease and replaces it with high temperature racing bearing grease.
I thought that my use of R tires and 15 mm H&R Spacers might have accelerated my wear ... but I know a STI/STU owner using street tires having to replace his before 10K. Warranty covered that one. Mine went out after about 32 K ... perhaps as many as 500+ AX runs.
| trhoppe | 10-17-2005 01:57 AM |
The fact that the STi that ran the 24hr event only used 3 bearings is great! Thats probably ~10 track hours on front bearing. Thats awesome if you ask me.
Then again, those are the 05 bearings where you have the regular WRX ones. I went through 2 front bearings in 70K miles on my car that saw autox, track and street driving. Looks like the same 30K ish as Mako, so if you around or past that mileage, I would consider that normal.
-Tom
Then again, those are the 05 bearings where you have the regular WRX ones. I went through 2 front bearings in 70K miles on my car that saw autox, track and street driving. Looks like the same 30K ish as Mako, so if you around or past that mileage, I would consider that normal.
-Tom
| funsti | 10-17-2005 09:24 AM |
:eek:
I've got 28k miles now on my 05 STi. It's got um.. wayyyy more than 200 autox runs on it.
Maybe I should inspect them.....
-JWM
I've got 28k miles now on my 05 STi. It's got um.. wayyyy more than 200 autox runs on it.
Maybe I should inspect them.....
-JWM
| Machine | 10-17-2005 09:49 AM |
Thanks for the replies. This car has had a very active autocross life both before me and since me, so I'm sure it's seen probably 200 runs twice over! The last 150 or so runs have been on R tires, which I'm sure has helped increase the stresses.
My indication have been audible - that grinding noise that seems worse with slight steering to the right. There has been some clunking over road irregularities, which I had attributed to the swaybar, but I wonder if that could be the bearings too...
Bill
My indication have been audible - that grinding noise that seems worse with slight steering to the right. There has been some clunking over road irregularities, which I had attributed to the swaybar, but I wonder if that could be the bearings too...
Bill
| thrdeye | 10-17-2005 10:12 AM |
I recently did my front wheel bearing as well. I believe that the impreza wheel bearings are "upgraded" to legacy bearings, when replaced.
| freq | 10-17-2005 10:25 AM |
Keep in mind upgraded suspension accelerates the wear on the bearings. My rears are due for replacement right now.
The 05 STi has upgraded wheel bearings to address this weakness IIRC, (bigger hubs, stronger bearings, bigger 114 bolt spacing)
When you replace your bearings, be sure to wash out the replacement bearings with parts cleaner and repack them with high temp synthetic grease!
The 05 STi has upgraded wheel bearings to address this weakness IIRC, (bigger hubs, stronger bearings, bigger 114 bolt spacing)
When you replace your bearings, be sure to wash out the replacement bearings with parts cleaner and repack them with high temp synthetic grease!
| FTD | 10-17-2005 10:41 AM |
Kind of a noob question, but how do you determine if the bearings are worn and/or due for replacement other than noise?
| makofoto | 10-17-2005 11:06 AM |
noise is the first indication ... and the one that you will typically react to. Either a low rumble or high pitch squeal. You can tell it's bearings because when you turn the wheel ... the loaded side gets louder
| BlkWRXWag | 10-17-2005 11:18 AM |
The first indication that mine were going was a rotational noise after a long journey. On short trips, I would hear nothing. After a while, it just got to be permanent! The dealer said that when they took them out, they pretty much disintegrated. Mine went at 40,000 miles on my 03 autox/daily driver wagon.
| trhoppe | 10-17-2005 11:20 AM |
[QUOTE=funsti]:eek:
I've got 28k miles now on my 05 STi. It's got um.. wayyyy more than 200 autox runs on it.
Maybe I should inspect them.....
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Thats one of the beauties of the 05, you don't really need to worry about them.
-Tom
I've got 28k miles now on my 05 STi. It's got um.. wayyyy more than 200 autox runs on it.
Maybe I should inspect them.....
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Thats one of the beauties of the 05, you don't really need to worry about them.
-Tom
| funsti | 10-17-2005 11:25 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Thats one of the beauties of the 05, you don't really need to worry about them.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Phew!! Thanks for the info. I thought I read they had more durable wheel bearings than the 04s; thanks for confirming it. I'll definitely be watching out for those noises though... none yet!
-JWM
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Phew!! Thanks for the info. I thought I read they had more durable wheel bearings than the 04s; thanks for confirming it. I'll definitely be watching out for those noises though... none yet!
-JWM
| dowroa | 10-17-2005 11:40 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Thats one of the beauties of the 05, you don't really need to worry about them.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Pftt.... mine have been 'popping' again since 5K miles.
They will be seeing SS in about 5K this winter for warranty work.
- dow
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Pftt.... mine have been 'popping' again since 5K miles.
They will be seeing SS in about 5K this winter for warranty work.
- dow
| trhoppe | 10-17-2005 11:53 AM |
What kills bearings the most is camber and low# offset wheels. If you don't daily drive the car with -18 degrees camber you will get a LOT more life out of bearings.
-Tom
-Tom
| funsti | 10-17-2005 12:54 PM |
Well dow you've been running roughly -3 camber for a while right?
Plus you're on Rota wheels which are +48 offset, but that wouldn't be much of a load difference vs the stock +53 would it?
I'm still on stock wheels but will soon be going to the same Rota wheels as dow for autox. I'm at -2.1 camber autoxing and -1.7 daily driving.
-JWM
Plus you're on Rota wheels which are +48 offset, but that wouldn't be much of a load difference vs the stock +53 would it?
I'm still on stock wheels but will soon be going to the same Rota wheels as dow for autox. I'm at -2.1 camber autoxing and -1.7 daily driving.
-JWM
| RB5 Clone | 10-17-2005 06:35 PM |
bearing tezts
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[QUOTE=FTD]Kind of a noob question, but how do you determine if the bearings are worn and/or due for replacement other than noise?[/QUOTE]
Jack the front and lower onto jackstands so wheels are off the ground.
Grab each front wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock, wiggle em. If there's any play, bearings are toast. Grab fronts at 3 and 9 o'clock, wiggle em. If there's play, it's likely to be inner tie rod ends. Both are standard results of extended scooby spankage. Neither situation is a problem...unless you don't fix em!
Dave G
Jack the front and lower onto jackstands so wheels are off the ground.
Grab each front wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock, wiggle em. If there's any play, bearings are toast. Grab fronts at 3 and 9 o'clock, wiggle em. If there's play, it's likely to be inner tie rod ends. Both are standard results of extended scooby spankage. Neither situation is a problem...unless you don't fix em!
Dave G
| DrBiggly | 10-17-2005 06:40 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]:eek:
I've got 28k miles now on my 05 STi. It's got um.. wayyyy more than 200 autox runs on it.
Maybe I should inspect them.....
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Get Steven to inspect them for you if you're worried, but the '05s are notably tougher. Plus -1.7 camber isn't a big deal on the car. Past 2 degrees daily is where it starts showing up from best I can tell.
For the wheel bearing test, there is a specific process. If you don't take off the axle nut and leave the wheel on, you're not doing it right. If I hadn't seen it right in front of me I wouldn't have believed it. trhoppe was there too. Even with the bearing ***completely*** hosed the wheel just had no wiggle as long as the axle nut was tightened down. :)
-Biggly
I've got 28k miles now on my 05 STi. It's got um.. wayyyy more than 200 autox runs on it.
Maybe I should inspect them.....
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Get Steven to inspect them for you if you're worried, but the '05s are notably tougher. Plus -1.7 camber isn't a big deal on the car. Past 2 degrees daily is where it starts showing up from best I can tell.
For the wheel bearing test, there is a specific process. If you don't take off the axle nut and leave the wheel on, you're not doing it right. If I hadn't seen it right in front of me I wouldn't have believed it. trhoppe was there too. Even with the bearing ***completely*** hosed the wheel just had no wiggle as long as the axle nut was tightened down. :)
-Biggly
| BlkWRXWag | 10-17-2005 08:07 PM |
I had my front wheel bearings replaced six weeks ago. They just failed again. Apparently, when the first set failed, they also damaged the hubs, so now I have new hubs AND new bearings!
| MartinG | 10-17-2005 09:31 PM |
I am on my third set of bearings in front and the second in the rear. The car has 57k miles on it, about -3 camber in front, gets autocrossed regularly, and tracked from time to time.
There are lots of Subarus here with similar alignments that don't get autocrossed as much and they have no bearing problems. That leads me to believe that autocross/track kills them.
For me the first indication that the front bearings are gone was that the car started to push and didn't respond to any suspension tweaks. Replacing the bearing fixed my handling issues both times.
The play in the bearings comes much later and so does the noise. I had mine inspected by a Subaru tech (who would have gotten paid to replace them) a week before they went out and he was certain that they were okay. I don't understand how they can be toast, but show none of the normal signs, but it happens.
There are lots of Subarus here with similar alignments that don't get autocrossed as much and they have no bearing problems. That leads me to believe that autocross/track kills them.
For me the first indication that the front bearings are gone was that the car started to push and didn't respond to any suspension tweaks. Replacing the bearing fixed my handling issues both times.
The play in the bearings comes much later and so does the noise. I had mine inspected by a Subaru tech (who would have gotten paid to replace them) a week before they went out and he was certain that they were okay. I don't understand how they can be toast, but show none of the normal signs, but it happens.
| PhilC | 10-17-2005 09:55 PM |
And some of us have better luck. Our car gets abused on a regular basis often by three drivers per event, has a bit over 50,000 miles on it and daily drives in the summer with 2.5ish front camber and we're still on the original bearings. Jen could answer for sure but I think we put about 300 runs on the car this year alone. No track time though which is what I think kills the bearings more than anything.
| 555ideways | 10-17-2005 10:12 PM |
Heat plays a big factor too. Stock wrx brakes, hubs/bearings and long track sessions can spell trouble. Bill has a different cause though.
| jcroy66 | 10-17-2005 10:24 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Jen could answer for sure but I think we put about 300 runs on the car this year alone.[/QUOTE]I have to estimate, because I'm not sure how many runs we did during the Evolution schools or fun runs at the one event. But it looks like approximately 375 runs this year. And my very rough guess would be 250-275 for last year. And maybe 30 runs in 2003. So 650+ autocross runs on these bearings.
| MartinG | 10-17-2005 11:20 PM |
My second set had about 200 runs on them and one track session in the rain, which probably didn't do much damage. I have had handling issues for the five months before they were replaced, so the bearings were probably gone after about 100 runs and no track time. And I wasn't even running on r-compounds! I guess bearings are just another autox consumable.
| javid | 10-18-2005 11:34 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]What kills bearings the most is camber and low# offset wheels. If you don't daily drive the car with -18 degrees camber you will get a LOT more life out of bearings.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
FOr most people I would agree. But I think that the heat is what kills them the quickest. Course you already know that I think that....
-Tom[/QUOTE]
FOr most people I would agree. But I think that the heat is what kills them the quickest. Course you already know that I think that....
| dmitrik4 | 10-18-2005 03:33 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]noise is the first indication ... and the one that you will typically react to. Either a low rumble or high pitch squeal. You can tell it's bearings because when you turn the wheel ... the loaded side gets louder[/QUOTE]
yep. the right front on my mazda is due for a replacement. hopefully i can get away w/ just the bearing and not have to do the hub as well.
mine started out with just a slight noise on the highway when i let off the gas. then it became a slight squealing. that comes and goes, but the original noise is a little bit louder now, and definitely worse when that corner is loaded. 53k with 2+ years of autoX on it.
yep. the right front on my mazda is due for a replacement. hopefully i can get away w/ just the bearing and not have to do the hub as well.
mine started out with just a slight noise on the highway when i let off the gas. then it became a slight squealing. that comes and goes, but the original noise is a little bit louder now, and definitely worse when that corner is loaded. 53k with 2+ years of autoX on it.
| Dan 91T | 10-18-2005 04:36 PM |
I think I read somewhere in the last couple weeks that Myles at Racecomp had a line on some sort of upgraded bearing, possibly prodrive. I have been intending on contacting him, since I expect mine to go pretty soon.
Dan
Dan
| trhoppe | 10-18-2005 04:38 PM |
STi makes one and if you can get JDM parts you can get it. Its about the same price as the OEM ones and has better grease. Only for the 05s though ;)
-Tom
-Tom
| buzz313th | 10-18-2005 04:53 PM |
Somebody here mentioned that they noticed uncorrectable push, and they replaced the bearings, which fixed the issue.
I'm just curious, but what would cause the car to push, if the bearings are on there way out, but there is no slack in the hub/bearing?
JB
I'm just curious, but what would cause the car to push, if the bearings are on there way out, but there is no slack in the hub/bearing?
JB
| MartinG | 10-18-2005 07:58 PM |
That was me.
While the bearings had no play when I inspected them they must have had enough give for the wheels to tilt under hard cornering. That would result in camber loss and thus push.
Just before they finally started to make noise I ran two events on very grippy concrete surfaces with long slaloms. The car felt like it was turning in two stages. It turned in sloppily and as the cornering forces increased there was an abrupt transition to sharper cornering. It is a hard to describe exactly, but it felt like there was a certain amount of play in the bearings and at some point it ran out of play. I never felt this on asphalt, which suggests that it taks a considerable amount of force to move the bearings.
There are some other comments about dead bearing with no play in this thread. Maybe somebody else has a better explanation.
While the bearings had no play when I inspected them they must have had enough give for the wheels to tilt under hard cornering. That would result in camber loss and thus push.
Just before they finally started to make noise I ran two events on very grippy concrete surfaces with long slaloms. The car felt like it was turning in two stages. It turned in sloppily and as the cornering forces increased there was an abrupt transition to sharper cornering. It is a hard to describe exactly, but it felt like there was a certain amount of play in the bearings and at some point it ran out of play. I never felt this on asphalt, which suggests that it taks a considerable amount of force to move the bearings.
There are some other comments about dead bearing with no play in this thread. Maybe somebody else has a better explanation.
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