| David03WRX | 04-09-2003 08:46 PM |
Frustrated Heel-toe-er
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I am really AGGRAVATED by my WRX right now because heel and toeing is not going smoothly. I have a 98 BMW, and it is perfect for heel-on-brake, toes-on-gas. The WRX however, does not work well for that... brake pedal is too high, so my heel slips off thanks to the metal not providing enough friction... It has nearly caused a few troubles. Only jerky, inaccurate downshifts in the WRX. Smooth, seamless ones in the BMW. AAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It makes me angry. I will try aftermarket pedals, but expect to see my WRX for sale soon.
I am going to sell the WRX and the 328i and buy an M Coupe.
I am going to sell the WRX and the 328i and buy an M Coupe.
| Akiata | 04-09-2003 08:59 PM |
Most people on here don't actually "heel-toe" but they roll their ankle and blip the gas. Works well for me.
| David03WRX | 04-09-2003 09:04 PM |
Understood. That's how I STARTED heel-toeing. On the track in the Bimmer it didn't work so well because of the brake pressure and travel necessary to properly decelerate. SO... I began LITERALLY Heel-Toeing. It works much more smoothly, much more positive interaction and more precise control. Unfortunately, that statement ONLY applies to the BMW.
Not to mention Subaru's SUPER grabby clutch. Jeez.
Not to mention Subaru's SUPER grabby clutch. Jeez.
| meebs | 04-09-2003 09:18 PM |
buy some new shoes.
| mattf87 | 04-09-2003 09:19 PM |
I always thought they did it by having their toes on the brakes and the heel on the gas.
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
| David03WRX | 04-09-2003 09:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by meebs [/i]
[B]buy some new shoes. [/B][/QUOTE]
Using Piloti Monacos. Trust me, it ain't the shoes.
[B]buy some new shoes. [/B][/QUOTE]
Using Piloti Monacos. Trust me, it ain't the shoes.
| fengshui-fu | 04-09-2003 09:28 PM |
:lol: Sounds like you need to a little more practice young grasshopper. It all comes down to comfortable seating position as far as heel toe goes. 95% of my downshifts are heel toes in the truest fashion (heel on gas, right toe on brake). The WRX pedal placement is ideal practically. It sounds like you should get a BMW M3 with SMG. :lol:
chris
edit: now to be polite: make sure you adjust the seat in as many ways as possible to achieve pedal control. You also realize a new pedal set is alot cheaper than a new car? Right? :confused: Also I am using comfortable dress shoes by ECCO to heel-toe, so I agree its not the shoes :D
chris
edit: now to be polite: make sure you adjust the seat in as many ways as possible to achieve pedal control. You also realize a new pedal set is alot cheaper than a new car? Right? :confused: Also I am using comfortable dress shoes by ECCO to heel-toe, so I agree its not the shoes :D
| David03WRX | 04-09-2003 09:39 PM |
Haha. Tried seating positions - High/low Near/far. Tried shoes. Tried different foot positions.
I had to pull out the plastic trim piece next to the gas pedal to get more room for my toes. Doesn't help my heel stick on the brake, though. New pedals on the way.
All in all, I FAR prefer the BMW on any given day. Even gets better mpg. More available torque. But less power... More manners on the highway and quieter.
I had higher expectations of the WRX and a better first impression than my current one.
I had to pull out the plastic trim piece next to the gas pedal to get more room for my toes. Doesn't help my heel stick on the brake, though. New pedals on the way.
All in all, I FAR prefer the BMW on any given day. Even gets better mpg. More available torque. But less power... More manners on the highway and quieter.
I had higher expectations of the WRX and a better first impression than my current one.
| fengshui-fu | 04-09-2003 09:54 PM |
I know the plastic piece you are talking about, but I usually adapt my foot around it for comfortable pedal feel. Right now, I have my seat slide all the way back, seat tilt all the way vertical, and i use the height crank until I can left foot brake and heel-toe comfortable. This make the steering a bit more uncomftable, but I can still crossover just fine. If the pedals are not for you, its good that you change them. I think the shift knob sucked, so I got the weighty and comfortable Perrin one. But when it comes to the pedals, I'm not the only person who says they are pretty good. SCC, and a bunch of other magazines say the same. I find heel toeing to actually be harder in the folk's 1988 BMW 325, but its probably because I never drive it and I dont adjust it to my comfort settings.
chris
chris
| OnTheGas | 04-09-2003 10:18 PM |
Heel On Brake or Heel on Gas?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fengshui-fu [/i]
[B]:lol: Sounds like you need to a little more practice young grasshopper...[/B][/QUOTE]I'm sure you're trying to be helpful, but a careful read of David03WRX's description of the problem reveals that he does heel and toe differently than the way that you do it...
David03WRX uses his heel on the brake, and toe on the gas. He's right, the WRX pedals are not well positioned for that style of heel&toe.
fengshui-fu uses the heel on the gas and toe on the brake style of heel&toe. The wrx pedal set is well positioned for this style.
[B]:lol: Sounds like you need to a little more practice young grasshopper...[/B][/QUOTE]I'm sure you're trying to be helpful, but a careful read of David03WRX's description of the problem reveals that he does heel and toe differently than the way that you do it...
David03WRX uses his heel on the brake, and toe on the gas. He's right, the WRX pedals are not well positioned for that style of heel&toe.
fengshui-fu uses the heel on the gas and toe on the brake style of heel&toe. The wrx pedal set is well positioned for this style.
| fengshui-fu | 04-09-2003 10:41 PM |
When rev matching to get it into 1st before I roll to a stop at a sign or light for example, occassionally I heel toe as you are describing. Since Im doing more braking than gassing I figure the brake should get the heel, but I agree its tough that way, then the traditional way. If i could get an M3 I would get the SMG. Nothing like rally style driving in a dedicated tarmac car.
chris
chris
| elgorey | 04-09-2003 10:54 PM |
brake pedal too high? not at all! In fact the brake pedal is too low for serious threshold braking heel toe, I had to put a pedal cover on my brake pedal to raise it some.
| David03WRX | 04-09-2003 11:27 PM |
Depending on the orientation of your foot. When turning the toes out clockwise, the pedal is too high. When turning inboard... not too high.
Mind you I'm not talking about the distance from the driver (depth/height) but the distance of the bottom of the pedal face from the floorboard.
...
Mind you I'm not talking about the distance from the driver (depth/height) but the distance of the bottom of the pedal face from the floorboard.
...
| Jerry C | 04-10-2003 12:19 AM |
Thank God you dont own a British Car!
If you can afford an M3 Coupe, why the hell did you buy a WRX?? The M3 is a purpose built, Tarmac Screamer. I would give my rt. test---- for an M3 Coupe. But it would sit in the garage during the winter months, and I cant afford a $50,000 fair weather racer. If you can, then sell your WRX. But do me a favor!, check the pedals on the M3 before you write the check!
I just noticed that you live in western Washington, so you wont have to worry about those monster tires on wet pavement.
Happy Motoring, Jerry C "The Old Fart"
If you can afford an M3 Coupe, why the hell did you buy a WRX?? The M3 is a purpose built, Tarmac Screamer. I would give my rt. test---- for an M3 Coupe. But it would sit in the garage during the winter months, and I cant afford a $50,000 fair weather racer. If you can, then sell your WRX. But do me a favor!, check the pedals on the M3 before you write the check!
I just noticed that you live in western Washington, so you wont have to worry about those monster tires on wet pavement.
Happy Motoring, Jerry C "The Old Fart"
| David03WRX | 04-10-2003 01:21 AM |
Jerry,
I'm not talking about an M3 Coupe, I'm referring to the M Coupe - the little Grand Touring two-seater reminiscent of the MGB GT (on SERIOUS 'roids)... And used, mind you. Selling both my current cars will free up some serious cash. I thought about a new M, but... WHY?
Also, I already know I can heel-toe in the Bimmer, because I do it flawlessly in my 98 328i... (also for sale...)
To answer the WHY WRX question... I wanted AWD and all weather ability. It was highly lauded and fun to watch in WRC competition. I don't doubt it's a good car, just not my dream car, and I find I don't drive it as well as I do the BMW.
I'm not talking about an M3 Coupe, I'm referring to the M Coupe - the little Grand Touring two-seater reminiscent of the MGB GT (on SERIOUS 'roids)... And used, mind you. Selling both my current cars will free up some serious cash. I thought about a new M, but... WHY?
Also, I already know I can heel-toe in the Bimmer, because I do it flawlessly in my 98 328i... (also for sale...)
To answer the WHY WRX question... I wanted AWD and all weather ability. It was highly lauded and fun to watch in WRC competition. I don't doubt it's a good car, just not my dream car, and I find I don't drive it as well as I do the BMW.
| Xio | 04-10-2003 01:22 AM |
Here's a cheapie alternative:
The pedal shafts are bendable. ;) You can bend the pedals to adjust them to some degree...most people don't think of this and immediately toss down $$$ for aftermarket pedals.
The pedal shafts are bendable. ;) You can bend the pedals to adjust them to some degree...most people don't think of this and immediately toss down $$$ for aftermarket pedals.
| David03WRX | 04-10-2003 01:29 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Xio [/i]
[B]Here's a cheapie alternative:
The pedal shafts are bendable. ;) You can bend the pedals to adjust them to some degree...most people don't think of this and immediately toss down $$$ for aftermarket pedals. [/B][/QUOTE]
But I can't EXTEND the length of the brake pedal... That's really the biggest issue right now (that and the turbo lag and grabby clutch) because I have to rotate my foot so that it is completely SIDEWAYS across the pedals. VERY uncomfortable for my hip (not as much as rotating my foor counter-clockwise...
[B]Here's a cheapie alternative:
The pedal shafts are bendable. ;) You can bend the pedals to adjust them to some degree...most people don't think of this and immediately toss down $$$ for aftermarket pedals. [/B][/QUOTE]
But I can't EXTEND the length of the brake pedal... That's really the biggest issue right now (that and the turbo lag and grabby clutch) because I have to rotate my foot so that it is completely SIDEWAYS across the pedals. VERY uncomfortable for my hip (not as much as rotating my foor counter-clockwise...
| Jerry C | 04-10-2003 02:47 AM |
My error! I know the car your talking about. It has been lauded by the European and U.S. press, as one of the best handling production cars ever built! What $ range, if you can find a good one?
We have a local in the Sacto. area that autoXs a silver one, and he does very well! Although I think that car is better suited for High Speed Track events. Good luck with your decision!! You have excellent taste in what you drive!
Happy Motoring! Jerry C
We have a local in the Sacto. area that autoXs a silver one, and he does very well! Although I think that car is better suited for High Speed Track events. Good luck with your decision!! You have excellent taste in what you drive!
Happy Motoring! Jerry C
| ITWRX4ME | 04-10-2003 07:43 AM |
While still a novice at "heel and toe" I am able to accomplish it using left half of the ball of my foot on the brake and the right half to blip the throttle. I did notice that it's possible to use top of foot on brake and heel on throttle but I have been practicing the other way for nearly a year now and it's habit.
That setup in your bimmer sounds ideal. I wish the Subie was setup that way. It's a more natural articulation.
The way I'm doing it was downright painful in the beginning. As elgorey implied, it's also more difficult under truly hard braking. The brake pedal goes way past the throttle. I may have to try the extension myself because I find myself just jamming the downshift instead of rev-matching at the track.
That setup in your bimmer sounds ideal. I wish the Subie was setup that way. It's a more natural articulation.
The way I'm doing it was downright painful in the beginning. As elgorey implied, it's also more difficult under truly hard braking. The brake pedal goes way past the throttle. I may have to try the extension myself because I find myself just jamming the downshift instead of rev-matching at the track.
| Cosworth | 04-10-2003 11:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fengshui-fu [/i]
[B]:lol: Sounds like you need to a little more practice young grasshopper. It all comes down to comfortable seating position as far as heel toe goes. 95% of my downshifts are heel toes in the truest fashion (heel on gas, right toe on brake). The WRX pedal placement is ideal practically. It sounds like you should get a BMW M3 with SMG. :lol:
[/B][/QUOTE]
blah, blah, blah. all this talk, but you still shift like crap, n00b.
I wish someone would heed a little of his own advice before spouting off as a self-proclaimed expert. every time i ride in your car, i get tossed around in the seat from all the jerking your car does when you "try" to revmatch your shifts.
:rolleyes: :devil:
[B]:lol: Sounds like you need to a little more practice young grasshopper. It all comes down to comfortable seating position as far as heel toe goes. 95% of my downshifts are heel toes in the truest fashion (heel on gas, right toe on brake). The WRX pedal placement is ideal practically. It sounds like you should get a BMW M3 with SMG. :lol:
[/B][/QUOTE]
blah, blah, blah. all this talk, but you still shift like crap, n00b.
I wish someone would heed a little of his own advice before spouting off as a self-proclaimed expert. every time i ride in your car, i get tossed around in the seat from all the jerking your car does when you "try" to revmatch your shifts.
:rolleyes: :devil:
| David03WRX | 04-10-2003 12:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jerry C [/i]
[B] You have excellent taste in what you drive!
Happy Motoring! Jerry C [/B][/QUOTE]
Why thank you sir!!!!
Also said to be one of the quickest factory cars built by BMW and the stiffest (at the time, mind you).
Loved by some, hated by others for appearance. And I LOVE it.
Only 2500 in USA...
[B] You have excellent taste in what you drive!
Happy Motoring! Jerry C [/B][/QUOTE]
Why thank you sir!!!!
Also said to be one of the quickest factory cars built by BMW and the stiffest (at the time, mind you).
Loved by some, hated by others for appearance. And I LOVE it.
Only 2500 in USA...
| elgorey | 04-10-2003 12:57 PM |
sounds like you should either learn how to properly heel&toe on the car, or go ahead and buy your BlingMW.
I have rolled plenty of them on track, they dont impress me much.
I have rolled plenty of them on track, they dont impress me much.
| fengshui-fu | 04-10-2003 01:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cosworth [/i]
[B]
blah, blah, blah. all this talk, but you still shift like crap, n00b.
I wish someone would heed a little of his own advice before spouting off as a self-proclaimed expert. every time i ride in your car, i get tossed around in the seat from all the jerking your car does when you "try" to revmatch your shifts.
:rolleyes: :devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
Nothing outta you. What you are to your drivetrain is what Saddam is to his people, an utter abusive tyrant. And when I ride shotgun with you, I feel like I'm participating in a demolition derby, only we aren't hitting anything. I could mix paint in the trunk of your car :lol:
chris
[B]
blah, blah, blah. all this talk, but you still shift like crap, n00b.
I wish someone would heed a little of his own advice before spouting off as a self-proclaimed expert. every time i ride in your car, i get tossed around in the seat from all the jerking your car does when you "try" to revmatch your shifts.
:rolleyes: :devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
Nothing outta you. What you are to your drivetrain is what Saddam is to his people, an utter abusive tyrant. And when I ride shotgun with you, I feel like I'm participating in a demolition derby, only we aren't hitting anything. I could mix paint in the trunk of your car :lol:
chris
| scott_gunn | 04-10-2003 01:39 PM |
Seriously, try learning a new heel-toe style, with the heel on the gas and the toe on the brake. Isn't this how it's supposed to be done? I've used this method in a new M3 (and my WRX of course) and it worked great for me.
Scott
Scott
| Cosworth | 04-10-2003 01:40 PM |
i'm smoov like buttah! :p
| elgorey | 04-10-2003 01:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by scott_gunn [/i]
[B]Seriously, try learning a new heel-toe style, with the heel on the gas and the toe on the brake. Isn't this how it's supposed to be done? I've used this method in a new M3 (and my WRX of course) and it worked great for me.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
Heel & toe is a misnomer. So many drivers frustrate themselves trying to do in-car gymnastics trying to get their heel on the gas pedal.
Proper heel & toe technique is with the ball of the foot on the brake, and rolling the foot over to use the outer edge/side of the foot on the gas. when practicing on the road where you are not depressing the brake as far down as you would be on the track, I use the bottom of my right foot
[B]Seriously, try learning a new heel-toe style, with the heel on the gas and the toe on the brake. Isn't this how it's supposed to be done? I've used this method in a new M3 (and my WRX of course) and it worked great for me.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
Heel & toe is a misnomer. So many drivers frustrate themselves trying to do in-car gymnastics trying to get their heel on the gas pedal.
Proper heel & toe technique is with the ball of the foot on the brake, and rolling the foot over to use the outer edge/side of the foot on the gas. when practicing on the road where you are not depressing the brake as far down as you would be on the track, I use the bottom of my right foot
| Dr. WOT | 04-11-2003 09:26 AM |
Fact of the matter is there is no one set way to heal-and-toe. Depending you how you leg/foot is orientated, one version on h-t might be close to impossible, while another type completely natural, and vice-versa for the next man.
Point is as long as you can match revs under heavy breaking, you have the right idea. From there it become an issue of ease and comfort, because as stated h-t should not be an exercise in calisthenics.
My toes point outward so I use the same method of heal/instep on the brake, toe on the gas. A longer brake pedal would help with this, as would a high friction surface.
My suggestion if the new pedals don't immediately help would be to use skateboard grip tape on the brake pedal so that you can get better traction.
Point is as long as you can match revs under heavy breaking, you have the right idea. From there it become an issue of ease and comfort, because as stated h-t should not be an exercise in calisthenics.
My toes point outward so I use the same method of heal/instep on the brake, toe on the gas. A longer brake pedal would help with this, as would a high friction surface.
My suggestion if the new pedals don't immediately help would be to use skateboard grip tape on the brake pedal so that you can get better traction.
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