| Scooby Freak | 04-14-2005 07:05 AM |
Getting STX Alignment Today - Last minute advice?
�
�
I'm setting the car up for STX, but still driving it daily. The car has Zeal V6 w/ 8kF/10kR springrates. 17 x 7.5 wheels w/ 225/45-17 Azenis and bigger front & rear swaybars. I haven't done anything to modify the caster.
Should I set:
[B]Front: Camber -2.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
and run it like that at the autox & on the street
or should I set:
[B]Front: Camber -1.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
then max out the camber when I get to the autox. I know it will toe out, and I will probably measure the change while I'm on the alignment rack.
How much front camber is too much with Azenis?
Thanks,
-jeff
Should I set:
[B]Front: Camber -2.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
and run it like that at the autox & on the street
or should I set:
[B]Front: Camber -1.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
then max out the camber when I get to the autox. I know it will toe out, and I will probably measure the change while I'm on the alignment rack.
How much front camber is too much with Azenis?
Thanks,
-jeff
| wrx2.0 555 | 04-14-2005 07:34 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby Freak]or should I set:
[B]Front: Camber -1.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
then max out the camber when I get to the autox. [/QUOTE].....
[B]Front: Camber -1.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
then max out the camber when I get to the autox. [/QUOTE].....
| Sideshowbob | 04-14-2005 08:51 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby Freak]
or should I set:
[B]Front: Camber -1.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
then max out the camber when I get to the autox. I know it will toe out, and I will probably measure the change while I'm on the alignment rack.
[/QUOTE]
I prefer to do this because the cars road manners a slightly better with less negative camber on highways and the rutted out roads of Boston.
Too much negative camber? There no such thing on a WRX in the front.
or should I set:
[B]Front: Camber -1.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
then max out the camber when I get to the autox. I know it will toe out, and I will probably measure the change while I'm on the alignment rack.
[/QUOTE]
I prefer to do this because the cars road manners a slightly better with less negative camber on highways and the rutted out roads of Boston.
Too much negative camber? There no such thing on a WRX in the front.
| DrBiggly | 04-14-2005 10:41 AM |
[QUOTE=BeantownWRX]Too much negative camber? There no such thing on a WRX in the front.[/QUOTE]
If there is such a thing, I haven't found it yet. :)
I also vote for option #1; it will daily drive just fine like that.
-Biggly
If there is such a thing, I haven't found it yet. :)
I also vote for option #1; it will daily drive just fine like that.
-Biggly
| omahasubaru | 04-14-2005 10:48 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby Freak]
[B]Front: Camber -2.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
and run it like that at the autox & on the street[/QUOTE]
Do that. This is what I ran last year and it worked very well. I'm up to -3 in the front this year and -1.5 in the rear.. still no issues on the street. zero toe is key.
Good luck!
[B]Front: Camber -2.5, Toe 0
Rear: Camber -1, Toe 0[/B]
and run it like that at the autox & on the street[/QUOTE]
Do that. This is what I ran last year and it worked very well. I'm up to -3 in the front this year and -1.5 in the rear.. still no issues on the street. zero toe is key.
Good luck!
| Sideshowbob | 04-14-2005 11:08 AM |
The reason I suggest the second setup is that I like a little toe out up front, but you can easily get away with -2.5 deg camber on the street as long as your toe is 0
| DrBiggly | 04-14-2005 11:20 AM |
[QUOTE=BeantownWRX]The reason I suggest the second setup is that I like a little toe out up front, but you can easily get away with -2.5 deg camber on the street as long as your toe is 0[/QUOTE]
Yeah, a little toe out on top of the -2.5 is going to eat the insides of the tires for lunch. :)
Yeah, a little toe out on top of the -2.5 is going to eat the insides of the tires for lunch. :)
| Sideshowbob | 04-14-2005 11:22 AM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Yeah, a little toe out on top of the -2.5 is going to eat the insides of the tires for lunch. :)[/QUOTE]
Tell me about it, or rather tell my poor Azenis about it.
Tell me about it, or rather tell my poor Azenis about it.
| DrBiggly | 04-14-2005 11:35 AM |
Yeah, been there done that man. Not the way to go for sure.
-Biggly has learned the hard way
-Biggly has learned the hard way
| kiefer | 04-14-2005 11:52 AM |
I vote for option #2. That's what I ran all of last year and loved it. With the GC strut tops it only takes 15-20 min to change your camber at the event. Definitely worth it.
As far as daily driving, even with only -1.5 deg camber up front, I did notice that the insides of my front tires wore slightly faster than the outsides (about 7k of street driving).
-Chris
As far as daily driving, even with only -1.5 deg camber up front, I did notice that the insides of my front tires wore slightly faster than the outsides (about 7k of street driving).
-Chris
| Scooby Freak | 04-14-2005 12:24 PM |
2 votes for option 1
3 votes for option 2
I guess I'll just flip a coin & hope it lands on the side where I don't have to do as much setup the day of the race.
3 votes for option 2
I guess I'll just flip a coin & hope it lands on the side where I don't have to do as much setup the day of the race.
| Corey | 04-14-2005 12:49 PM |
Put me down for 10 votes on option 1 but add 1/8 toe out in the front. Just DOET. I'll have lots of tires to sell you this year anyway...
Corey #89 STS
Corey #89 STS
| D_REX | 04-14-2005 12:54 PM |
Option 1 all the way. Unless you are running lots of toe I see no reason to change alignment at events.
| trhoppe | 04-14-2005 01:10 PM |
Option 1. With 0 toe you will have no more inside wear then at -1.5 camber. You will always have it right, no mucking with the alignment etc etc.
-Tom
-Tom
| MRF582 | 04-14-2005 01:21 PM |
option 1. in fact mine is -2.5/-.2 camber right now. i'm thinking of putting another set of camber bolts in the lower front holes to get -3 to -3.5 then i'll increase the rear camber to -.8 or something.
oh and no irregular tire wear. and -2.5 isn't enough. i'm still heating up the outsides.
oh and no irregular tire wear. and -2.5 isn't enough. i'm still heating up the outsides.
| subimatt | 04-14-2005 01:28 PM |
option 1 as well
| Scooby Freak | 04-14-2005 01:37 PM |
Thanks guys, that's what I wanted to hear. I don't want to worry about it at the events.
And Corey, I'm getting an extra set of 16" wheels this weekend, so as soon as you think you have too many tires, let me know.
-jeff
And Corey, I'm getting an extra set of 16" wheels this weekend, so as soon as you think you have too many tires, let me know.
-jeff
| Butt Dyno | 04-14-2005 05:03 PM |
Am I the only person whose car rides BETTER with lots of negative camber?
The car tramlines with the 225 width Azenis a lot less it seems. Maybe I've just adjusted.
john
The car tramlines with the 225 width Azenis a lot less it seems. Maybe I've just adjusted.
john
| makofoto | 04-14-2005 06:09 PM |
Too much camber, yes!
[IMG]http://images9.fotki.com/v169/photos/4/43793/836092/_4_0camber-vi.jpg[/IMG]
What we do ...
Max out your camber (at least -3.5) and set for a good 1/8th toe out.
Then reduce camber until your toe is 0 or a mm in. Mark this as your Street Setting.
At the track ... slam it ... afterwards return to your street setting.
Without extra caster ... you will lose "all" of your camber when you turn ... so you need a LOT of static neg. camber.
If you add extra caster ... you can get away with say -3.5 camber.
[IMG]http://images9.fotki.com/v169/photos/4/43793/836092/_4_0camber-vi.jpg[/IMG]
What we do ...
Max out your camber (at least -3.5) and set for a good 1/8th toe out.
Then reduce camber until your toe is 0 or a mm in. Mark this as your Street Setting.
At the track ... slam it ... afterwards return to your street setting.
Without extra caster ... you will lose "all" of your camber when you turn ... so you need a LOT of static neg. camber.
If you add extra caster ... you can get away with say -3.5 camber.
| thechickencow | 04-14-2005 08:41 PM |
About how much toe out will you get if you do the -1.5 and zero toe route then go to max camber at the autox? Anybody measured that?
| makofoto | 04-14-2005 09:13 PM |
You will end up with way too much toe out!
Going from -3.5 and 1/8th" + to -2.5 will take you to around zero.
[img]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/CamberEFXonTOE-vi.jpg[/img]
Going from -3.5 and 1/8th" + to -2.5 will take you to around zero.
[img]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/CamberEFXonTOE-vi.jpg[/img]
| makofoto | 04-14-2005 09:21 PM |
Don't be scared of aggressive neg. camber ... you just need to make sure your toe is close to zero for the street. If you drive somewhat aggressively ... the neg camber will help zero out your side to side wear.
I drive with over -3.5 camber but zero toe ... and have good wear. If necessary, at the 1/3rd life of your tire ... you can have them flipped on their rims. Then, at their 2/3rds life mark ... the wear will have evened out ... and then for the last 1/3rd of their life ... they will wear a bit uneven in the other direction.
You're into this for performance ... you have to accept some tire wear. This isn't your dad's set of tires !!! ;)
I drive with over -3.5 camber but zero toe ... and have good wear. If necessary, at the 1/3rd life of your tire ... you can have them flipped on their rims. Then, at their 2/3rds life mark ... the wear will have evened out ... and then for the last 1/3rd of their life ... they will wear a bit uneven in the other direction.
You're into this for performance ... you have to accept some tire wear. This isn't your dad's set of tires !!! ;)
| wrx2.0 555 | 04-15-2005 06:24 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]You will end up with way too much toe out!
Going from -3.5 and 1/8th" + to -2.5 will take you to around zero.
[img]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/CamberEFXonTOE-vi.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Whats "full positive"?
You took the wheel from -3.5 and 1/8th toe to full positive and 1.06----we need to know what full positive is to know how much change to expect anywhere in between.
A simple equation I would like to know the answer to is this:
For every degree of negative camber added you will cause [COLOR=DarkRed]X[/COLOR] of toe out.
If someone doesnt already know, I think we will do this ourselves really soon.
Scott
Going from -3.5 and 1/8th" + to -2.5 will take you to around zero.
[img]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/CamberEFXonTOE-vi.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Whats "full positive"?
You took the wheel from -3.5 and 1/8th toe to full positive and 1.06----we need to know what full positive is to know how much change to expect anywhere in between.
A simple equation I would like to know the answer to is this:
For every degree of negative camber added you will cause [COLOR=DarkRed]X[/COLOR] of toe out.
If someone doesnt already know, I think we will do this ourselves really soon.
Scott
| Sideshowbob | 04-15-2005 09:24 AM |
I think that would be dependent on setup(Camber plates, struts, ride hieght, Wagon or Sedan), but it could be done.
| makofoto | 04-15-2005 12:20 PM |
I didn't have my camber gauge when I did that test/photos ...
I would guesstimate that there was at least four degrees of camber travel ... resulting in about 1 inch change in toe ... so conservatively ... 1/8th to 1/4 inch change for each degree. I believe a friend of mine goes from -3.5 with about 3/16th toe out ... to -2.5 and close to zero toe.
The main thing ... the change in toe is dramatic.
But typically you want max camber for the AX course ... then reduce camber until when you measure across your wheels ... you have zero toe.
We find the easiest way to do this is have two straight boards ... we use two 2' long shelves ... pushed up against the outside of the wheels. Then using a steel tape measure ... measure across to the boards ... you want the same measurement for the front and rear of the edges of the board/tire/wheel ... for your street setting. The amount of camber isn't that important ... just max it out for the track.
I would guesstimate that there was at least four degrees of camber travel ... resulting in about 1 inch change in toe ... so conservatively ... 1/8th to 1/4 inch change for each degree. I believe a friend of mine goes from -3.5 with about 3/16th toe out ... to -2.5 and close to zero toe.
The main thing ... the change in toe is dramatic.
But typically you want max camber for the AX course ... then reduce camber until when you measure across your wheels ... you have zero toe.
We find the easiest way to do this is have two straight boards ... we use two 2' long shelves ... pushed up against the outside of the wheels. Then using a steel tape measure ... measure across to the boards ... you want the same measurement for the front and rear of the edges of the board/tire/wheel ... for your street setting. The amount of camber isn't that important ... just max it out for the track.
| Scooby Freak | 04-18-2005 09:18 AM |
I ended up with
front: -2.5 camber, 0 toe
rear: -1.3 camber, 0 toe
Maxing out the camber plates gave me -2.5 on one side & -3.0 on the other side, so I just made them even. The rear camber plates had more slot to adjust, but the allen bolts on top were hitting the mounting point. So -1.3 is the least amount of camber I could get in the rear.
I ran in two autocrosses this weekend and it felt pretty good. I could probably use a little more rotation, so I will play with shocks & tire pressures to help that.
Thanks for all the help.
-jeff
front: -2.5 camber, 0 toe
rear: -1.3 camber, 0 toe
Maxing out the camber plates gave me -2.5 on one side & -3.0 on the other side, so I just made them even. The rear camber plates had more slot to adjust, but the allen bolts on top were hitting the mounting point. So -1.3 is the least amount of camber I could get in the rear.
I ran in two autocrosses this weekend and it felt pretty good. I could probably use a little more rotation, so I will play with shocks & tire pressures to help that.
Thanks for all the help.
-jeff
| omahasubaru | 04-18-2005 09:24 AM |
I think -2.5 is good. I also think anything over -3.0 it too much for street tires as you're really going to kill your braking ability. Makafoto is on to a good set-up, but that is running race tires or non-STX-legal street tires. To stay within the limits of the rules. I think over -3.0 is overkill for STX, but I could be wrong as I didn't win any national championships.
| merlot | 04-18-2005 10:34 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby Freak]
I ran in two autocrosses this weekend and it felt pretty good. I could probably use a little more rotation, so I will play with shocks & tire pressures to help that.
[/QUOTE]
I would hope it felt good, you did well. Nice job!
Mike - #8
I ran in two autocrosses this weekend and it felt pretty good. I could probably use a little more rotation, so I will play with shocks & tire pressures to help that.
[/QUOTE]
I would hope it felt good, you did well. Nice job!
Mike - #8
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét