| skidplatez | 04-18-2001 08:26 AM |
Kartboy links and ALK illegal in STS?
I was just reading the STS rules and saw this:
[quote]
Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical bushing), or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction differs from that of the original bushing. If the Stock bushing accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be changed to accomodate such motion via a change in bushing type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to prevent the rotation of alternate bushings, but may serve no other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired position.
[/quote]
I know I could get away with both at the regional level, but does this mean that they are actually illegal in STS?
[quote]
Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical bushing), or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction differs from that of the original bushing. If the Stock bushing accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be changed to accomodate such motion via a change in bushing type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to prevent the rotation of alternate bushings, but may serve no other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired position.
[/quote]
I know I could get away with both at the regional level, but does this mean that they are actually illegal in STS?
| steve_d | 04-18-2001 08:32 AM |
Endlinks, no.
ALK yes. The ALK is a change of suspension geometry. That's illegal.
sjd
ALK yes. The ALK is a change of suspension geometry. That's illegal.
sjd
| skidplatez | 04-18-2001 08:34 AM |
I didn't mean all Endlinks. But, according to this rule Kartboys might be illegal because the use spherical bearings that are specifically mentioned here. See what I mean?
| Spectre23 | 04-18-2001 09:16 AM |
It is fine to have solid links on the sway bars. You just can't replace a suspension pivot bushing with a spherical bearing. Pretty much anything that has to do with the sway bar is open. You can even have the sway bar going through needle bearings instead of bushings if you wanted (and could figure out how).
BTW, that rule says suspension bushings. For some reason sway bars are not considered suspension pieces in the rules. They are their own entity.
[This message has been edited by Spectre23 (edited April 18, 2001).]
BTW, that rule says suspension bushings. For some reason sway bars are not considered suspension pieces in the rules. They are their own entity.
[This message has been edited by Spectre23 (edited April 18, 2001).]
| skidplatez | 04-18-2001 11:21 AM |
Thanks Spectre23 that is what I was missing I didn't realize they considered swaybars a separate entity.
| Eric | 04-18-2001 04:51 PM |
Thats right. Kartboy links are OK. ALK is not OK.
Eric
Eric
| Spectre23 | 04-19-2001 12:49 AM |
Just for all those that may doubt me (foolish people) [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img] Here is what the 2001 rule book says:
17.7. ANTI-SWAY BARS
Any anti-sway bar is permitted. Bushing material, method of attachment, and locating points are unrestricted. This does not authorize removal of a welded-on part of a subframe toa ccommodate the installation. Components such as anti-roll bars and strut housings which serve dual purposes by also functioning as suspension locators may not be modified in ways which change the suspension geometry or steering geometry
The Section that talks about suspension is 17.8.
17.7. ANTI-SWAY BARS
Any anti-sway bar is permitted. Bushing material, method of attachment, and locating points are unrestricted. This does not authorize removal of a welded-on part of a subframe toa ccommodate the installation. Components such as anti-roll bars and strut housings which serve dual purposes by also functioning as suspension locators may not be modified in ways which change the suspension geometry or steering geometry
The Section that talks about suspension is 17.8.
| remarcable | 04-19-2001 01:42 PM |
Damn. I was hoping to get the ALK instead of a larger rear bar because the ALK doesn't affect offroad performance as badly as a stiffer rear bar does.
And I am wanting to auto X (would rather Rally X but I'll take what I can get).
So I guess no ALK. Damn. Damn Damn.
And I am wanting to auto X (would rather Rally X but I'll take what I can get).
So I guess no ALK. Damn. Damn Damn.
| tomas | 04-20-2001 08:32 AM |
So if we have an ALK what class would that bump us into? I don't have one currently but I have heard nothing but positive comments about the kit and have thought about ordering one.
| Molez93 | 04-20-2001 08:40 AM |
What class with an ALK?
For Street Mod it is definately allowed (you are using the original pick-up point on the unibody). I wouldn't be surprised if it's illegal in SP. There are only a handful of suspension mods you can do in street prepared, and I know you can't modify or replace upper/lower control arms. An anti lift kit is even more of a tweek.
FWIW, I'm sure it's allowed in Prepared and Modified. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
-Scott #04 Street Mod
[This message has been edited by Molez93 (edited April 20, 2001).]
For Street Mod it is definately allowed (you are using the original pick-up point on the unibody). I wouldn't be surprised if it's illegal in SP. There are only a handful of suspension mods you can do in street prepared, and I know you can't modify or replace upper/lower control arms. An anti lift kit is even more of a tweek.
FWIW, I'm sure it's allowed in Prepared and Modified. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
-Scott #04 Street Mod
[This message has been edited by Molez93 (edited April 20, 2001).]
| Spectre23 | 04-20-2001 10:01 AM |
ALK is not legal in SM or SP either. You would be in EM I believe, maybe a prepared class.
| Tangmere | 04-20-2001 10:16 AM |
But you can run pillowball mounts which give you the same effect as ALK (more caster), but thats legal?
| Molez93 | 04-20-2001 11:44 AM |
Spectre23- Actually, I'm sure the ALK is Street Mod legal. Why? Becuase you are using the original attachment holes where the original suspension *was*. That rule is basically the ONLY suspension requirement for the class. If we had to move those holes, make them bigger, or drill new ones then the ALK would be illegal.
FWIW- We covered this very question a few months back on the SM Yahoo/ONelist board.
-Scott
FWIW- We covered this very question a few months back on the SM Yahoo/ONelist board.
-Scott
| DLC | 04-20-2001 01:03 PM |
Molez: By the way i read the rules, as long as you don't mess with [i]where[/i] the suspension parts are mounted, you're ok.
Therefore, ALK would be legal in SM.
#74SM Big White Legacy Turbo Wagon
Therefore, ALK would be legal in SM.
#74SM Big White Legacy Turbo Wagon
| WRXster | 04-20-2001 01:15 PM |
OK, I'm just dying from curiosity/ingorance here... What is an ALK, and what does it replace or suplement?
| Spectre23 | 04-20-2001 01:23 PM |
ALK = Anti Lift Kit
I thought SM said you couldn't alter pivot points just like the SP and STS rule. If it is just attachment points, I guess they would be legal.
I thought SM said you couldn't alter pivot points just like the SP and STS rule. If it is just attachment points, I guess they would be legal.
| ChrisW | 04-20-2001 02:23 PM |
I would think the ALK kits are legal. First, how does the ALK kit change the caster? if it does this by an offset bushing, then it is legal in street prepared and thus legal in SM as well. I hope this is true, I want to get ALK's for my WRX when ever it comes in.
If the ALK kit changes castor by altering the suspension mounting point then it is not legal in street prepared. I don't know how this would be true if the ALK kit uses the stock mounting points for the lower control arm bushing.
just my $0.02
If the ALK kit changes castor by altering the suspension mounting point then it is not legal in street prepared. I don't know how this would be true if the ALK kit uses the stock mounting points for the lower control arm bushing.
just my $0.02
| Spectre23 | 04-20-2001 02:34 PM |
The hole in the bushing is still right through the middle. The mount that the bushing is in is a different shape. It has already been discussed with the SCCA head honchos and they deemed it illegal. You can find that out at [url="http://www.sccaforums.com"]www.sccaforums.com[/url]
| ColinL | 04-20-2001 02:50 PM |
Nope, SM is stock attachment points to the unit body. You could one-off front control arms if you really felt like it, as long as they mounted to the chassis in the stock location you're golden.
I don't think any of that sort of fabrication is needed to win the class today though.
[This message has been edited by ColinL (edited April 20, 2001).]
I don't think any of that sort of fabrication is needed to win the class today though.
[This message has been edited by ColinL (edited April 20, 2001).]
| ChrisW | 04-21-2001 08:50 AM |
Ok,
I just checked my 01 rule book. ALK kits are not allowed in Streep prepared. You can put almost any bushing you want into the car, but since the ALK kit changes the alignment of the bushing mount, it is illegal.
However, you could have an offset bushing made that changes the alignment in a similar manner, this is legal. Since we can run camber plates, what is the difference? With camber plates we still caster adjustment.
I just checked my 01 rule book. ALK kits are not allowed in Streep prepared. You can put almost any bushing you want into the car, but since the ALK kit changes the alignment of the bushing mount, it is illegal.
However, you could have an offset bushing made that changes the alignment in a similar manner, this is legal. Since we can run camber plates, what is the difference? With camber plates we still caster adjustment.
| ColinL | 04-21-2001 10:25 AM |
There's definitely a difference in altering the camber curve at the hub by changing suspension geometry and simply reclining the strut top to give caster.
The ALK's change is small, but it's illegal for SP and STS nonetheless.
The ALK's change is small, but it's illegal for SP and STS nonetheless.
| omahasubaru | 05-31-2001 01:42 PM |
so based on this :
[quote]
Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material may not be increased.
[/quote]
Can we swap in STi group N full suspension bushings?
Thanks - Jon
[url="http://www.nebraska.mwsoc.org"]http://www.nebraska.mwsoc.org[/url]
[quote]
Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material may not be increased.
[/quote]
Can we swap in STi group N full suspension bushings?
Thanks - Jon
[url="http://www.nebraska.mwsoc.org"]http://www.nebraska.mwsoc.org[/url]
| Molez93 | 05-31-2001 01:55 PM |
I can say with complete confidence that an ALK is legal for Street Mod. As long as you use the stock attatchment points (fewer than stock is fine, but NO new holes and NO frame welding), any suspension you can configure is legal. A while back- heck, maybe even in this thread, a few folks thought you had to maintain the stock PIVOT points in Street Mod; this is not true.
About the Group N bushings, I'm sure they are legal for SM. As for legality in STS, I'll let someone else chime in. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
-Scott
Edit for clarity. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Molez93 (edited May 31, 2001).]
About the Group N bushings, I'm sure they are legal for SM. As for legality in STS, I'll let someone else chime in. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
-Scott
Edit for clarity. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Molez93 (edited May 31, 2001).]
| skidplatez | 05-31-2001 01:59 PM |
Yes Full Goup N SUSPENSION bushings are legal. however, engine and tranny mounts are NOT legal.
| Chin | 05-31-2001 02:13 PM |
Are engine and tranny mounts legal in street prepared?
Christian
Christian
| Strepto | 05-31-2001 03:08 PM |
in SP engine mounts are illegal
| Scooby South | 06-01-2001 12:26 AM |
Is ALK legal in SM or not...I have one waiting to be installed..ow I am confused...I know they are not in STS...
| omahasubaru | 06-01-2001 05:35 AM |
Alright bushings are legal for STS!!!
Now I just need to get the $$$ to pick them up and well find someone who's willing to help with install (Steve?? zzyzx).
Good to hear as I know they will make a difference.
Jon
Now I just need to get the $$$ to pick them up and well find someone who's willing to help with install (Steve?? zzyzx).
Good to hear as I know they will make a difference.
Jon
| Spectre23 | 06-01-2001 07:49 AM |
I beleive Steve Wynne said that they are working to make motor mounts legal for STS also. Steve is on the board that helps make the rules, and he drives a Neon so he will probably make a good effort to do so since Neons will go through a couple sets of mounts each year autocrossing. Besides that, allowing full bushings everywhere else but not in the mounts makes no sense.
| omahasubaru | 06-01-2001 10:03 AM |
Tranny mounts should be legal as well for STS...
| skidplatez | 06-01-2001 10:45 AM |
If you guys want more information on these and other issues related to SCCA legality. I highly recommend [url="http://www.SCCAforums.com"]www.SCCAforums.com[/url] all sorts of interesting discussions over there including the history of why motor/tranny mounts are NOT allowed.
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