| BriDrive | 03-17-2004 11:09 AM |
King / Hoppe / Casey
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Taking a gamble and asking a favor of you 3 especially...others can chime in if relevant:
Please post your ride heights measured from center of each wheel perpendicularly up to fender lip at each corner.
I realize in advance there will be some deviation from side to side and front to rear based on corner balance, but I want to get a good baseline for myself based on your data.
Only in SCCA SOLO is it even possible to ask this question with out being laughed out of the room...but alas, I'm not competition to any of you so don't sweat it....Oh and one more Please for effect.
BriDrive (cringing in a corner)
Please post your ride heights measured from center of each wheel perpendicularly up to fender lip at each corner.
I realize in advance there will be some deviation from side to side and front to rear based on corner balance, but I want to get a good baseline for myself based on your data.
Only in SCCA SOLO is it even possible to ask this question with out being laughed out of the room...but alas, I'm not competition to any of you so don't sweat it....Oh and one more Please for effect.
BriDrive (cringing in a corner)
| KC | 03-17-2004 11:29 AM |
I still have my snow tires on the car. It wouldn't be accurate.
Still want them?
Still want them?
| BriDrive | 03-17-2004 12:03 PM |
Yes, I think it should still be accurate if you measure from wheel center to fender lip....
Unless you raise the ride height for winter driving via the coilovers you are using.....
Thanks, BriDrive
Unless you raise the ride height for winter driving via the coilovers you are using.....
Thanks, BriDrive
| MNbiker | 03-17-2004 12:07 PM |
You'd better specify whether you want measurements for Wagon or Sedan - they will be somewhat different. I can give you mine, which should be pretty darn close to KC's, but they won't do you much good if you have a sedan.
-Steve
-Steve
| Scooby South | 03-17-2004 12:15 PM |
Hey Brian....you need some other data also...
Rim/tire size and brand
it will read different with whatever you use...Unless they have the SAME wheel/tire combo that you do..
:)
Bill
Rim/tire size and brand
it will read different with whatever you use...Unless they have the SAME wheel/tire combo that you do..
:)
Bill
| TyrannoSullyRex | 03-17-2004 12:23 PM |
The relationship between the center of the wheel and the fender lip would be the same regardless of tire/wheel combo on the same car. But there is the ability to go really low if you've got some crazy 15x8-245/30-15 combo.
| BriDrive | 03-17-2004 12:26 PM |
MNbiker, I did think about that....and the sedan info is most useful to me....
If you knew the OEM measurements for the wagon I could make some correlations but I didn't want to shoot myself in the foot by asking for something that was such an extraordinary PITA that noone would respond....
My bottom line, what I'm trying to get at, is this:
For the SOLO racers with lots of experience and competitive results,
When lowering the WRX sedan using independent ride height adjustable coilovers, have folks lowered the car equally at front and rear, ie 2" front and 2" rear. Or some other number, say 1.75".
Or have they tended to lower the front more than the rear.
Or have they not given it much thought.
And after looking at responses...come up with average ride height target for myself without having to labor through too many trial and error adjusting....
If you knew the OEM measurements for the wagon I could make some correlations but I didn't want to shoot myself in the foot by asking for something that was such an extraordinary PITA that noone would respond....
My bottom line, what I'm trying to get at, is this:
For the SOLO racers with lots of experience and competitive results,
When lowering the WRX sedan using independent ride height adjustable coilovers, have folks lowered the car equally at front and rear, ie 2" front and 2" rear. Or some other number, say 1.75".
Or have they tended to lower the front more than the rear.
Or have they not given it much thought.
And after looking at responses...come up with average ride height target for myself without having to labor through too many trial and error adjusting....
| MNbiker | 03-17-2004 12:59 PM |
I'm running approx. 1.8" lower than stock in front, and 1.4" lower than stock in back. I'm running 8K front/10K rear springs & 225/45-17 Azenis. Anything lower results in rubbing, at least on the wagon. Last time I saw KC's car, it was the tiniest bit higher than mine, but he may have changed things since then.
Note - tire width & spring stiffness will be a factor in how low you want to go. The sedans I've seen running 245's (Tom, Kiko, etc.) appeared to have a little less than a 2" drop, even with stiff springs.
-Steve
Note - tire width & spring stiffness will be a factor in how low you want to go. The sedans I've seen running 245's (Tom, Kiko, etc.) appeared to have a little less than a 2" drop, even with stiff springs.
-Steve
| BriDrive | 03-17-2004 01:24 PM |
Thank you very much Steve.
| stxwrxracer | 03-18-2004 01:03 AM |
Hey Brian...I'm in California as we speak, so no measuring for me...will do when I get back on Tuesday. As far as mine goes though, it is low but don't have a measurement to go by right now. But one thing I do know and can tell you, the front measurement from ground to wheel well is the same as the rear. Hope this helps for now...
~Mike King
~Mike King
| TheWRX | 03-18-2004 02:09 AM |
I can't find my notes, and I'm currently on the stock suspension. But I seem to rember something around 14" both front and rear? I know I followed recommendations that were posted here earlier, I had the rear lower initially. The front is lowered about 2". With the same height, the rear isn't lowered a whole lot from stock. Using the popular scientific measuring method, it's about two fingers between fender lip and tire.
Finally found the older thread I was looking for:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=395583[/url]
Finally found the older thread I was looking for:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=395583[/url]
| MNbiker | 03-18-2004 02:24 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]Finally found the older thread I was looking for:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=395583[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Hey, I forgot about that thread...and I started the darn thing!:p
I just measured my car - lo & behold, it's currently set at 13.75" front & 14" rear.
-Steve
[B]Finally found the older thread I was looking for:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=395583[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Hey, I forgot about that thread...and I started the darn thing!:p
I just measured my car - lo & behold, it's currently set at 13.75" front & 14" rear.
-Steve
| BriDrive | 03-18-2004 10:10 AM |
Mike, thanks...that does help a little as it indicates you guys went with more front end drop than rear, as the front well is slightly higher than the rear on the sedan. (I'm not familiar with wagon)
Good Luck out there BTW.
Thanks again to MNbiker and TheWRX...that was an interesting thread, too bad it didn't go on longer....I'd be interested in learning more about rollcenter versus center of gravity specifically for the WRX...
Right now (02 WRX sedan)...I'm set at 1.9" drop from OEM height front and rear. That's about 13.25" front and 13" rear for the sedan. I'm guessing from reading this thread and Steve's that most folks are actually utilizing slightly more drop in front than rear...so perhaps I may drop front another 6mm and raise rear 4mm.
Hopefully, when I'm finally done with this crap, ie rideheight then corner balance then alignment: "it's set it and forget it"
Thanks again, BriDrive
Good Luck out there BTW.
Thanks again to MNbiker and TheWRX...that was an interesting thread, too bad it didn't go on longer....I'd be interested in learning more about rollcenter versus center of gravity specifically for the WRX...
Right now (02 WRX sedan)...I'm set at 1.9" drop from OEM height front and rear. That's about 13.25" front and 13" rear for the sedan. I'm guessing from reading this thread and Steve's that most folks are actually utilizing slightly more drop in front than rear...so perhaps I may drop front another 6mm and raise rear 4mm.
Hopefully, when I'm finally done with this crap, ie rideheight then corner balance then alignment: "it's set it and forget it"
Thanks again, BriDrive
| MNbiker | 03-18-2004 10:44 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive [/i]
[B]Right now (02 WRX sedan)...I'm set at 1.9" drop from OEM height front and rear. That's about 13.25" front and 13" rear for the sedan. I'm guessing from reading this thread and Steve's that most folks are actually utilizing slightly more drop in front than rear...so perhaps I may drop front another 6mm and raise rear 4mm. [/B][/QUOTE]
What tires/springs are you running? You may already be a bit low for 245's, or softer springs. You can always do what I did - keep lowering until you hearing rubbing on the fender liners, then raise it a bit!:p
-Steve
[B]Right now (02 WRX sedan)...I'm set at 1.9" drop from OEM height front and rear. That's about 13.25" front and 13" rear for the sedan. I'm guessing from reading this thread and Steve's that most folks are actually utilizing slightly more drop in front than rear...so perhaps I may drop front another 6mm and raise rear 4mm. [/B][/QUOTE]
What tires/springs are you running? You may already be a bit low for 245's, or softer springs. You can always do what I did - keep lowering until you hearing rubbing on the fender liners, then raise it a bit!:p
-Steve
| BriDrive | 03-18-2004 11:06 AM |
Steve,
I'm currently running 225/45/17 Azenis on typical/conservative
7k front / 5K rear coils...No rubbing probs w/ these tires....
I just keep going back and forth on how aggressive I should be with the front drop and whether there are adverse consequences. I liked your first thread, I guess the question really is: How low is too low....as it relates to handling geometry.
Leaving other variables aside such as rubbing, ridiculous slam-low ricer aesthetics, etc, etc...
I will be auto-x'ing it sunday without benefit of cornerweight and alignment and see what it feels like right now...
I was just trying to cheat and steal someone elses hard earned data so I wouldn't have to but :) ...I guess trial and error is really the only solution isn't it...everyones preferences / driving styles / and tens of other variables needing to be considered...
Thanks for the replies....Brian
I'm currently running 225/45/17 Azenis on typical/conservative
7k front / 5K rear coils...No rubbing probs w/ these tires....
I just keep going back and forth on how aggressive I should be with the front drop and whether there are adverse consequences. I liked your first thread, I guess the question really is: How low is too low....as it relates to handling geometry.
Leaving other variables aside such as rubbing, ridiculous slam-low ricer aesthetics, etc, etc...
I will be auto-x'ing it sunday without benefit of cornerweight and alignment and see what it feels like right now...
I was just trying to cheat and steal someone elses hard earned data so I wouldn't have to but :) ...I guess trial and error is really the only solution isn't it...everyones preferences / driving styles / and tens of other variables needing to be considered...
Thanks for the replies....Brian
| trhoppe | 03-18-2004 11:11 AM |
I think mine is at 13.75" also
-Tom
-Tom
| trhoppe | 03-18-2004 11:12 AM |
The general rule of thumb is you don't want your control arms to be pointing up. You either want them paralled to the ground or pointing down (at the hub)
-Tom
-Tom
| BriDrive | 03-18-2004 11:16 AM |
Thanks Tom, that is what I will be looking at tonight...
| MNbiker | 03-18-2004 11:20 AM |
Brian,
You're probably pretty close to what others are running, if you raise the rear just a smidge. IMHO you should leave the front where it is.
Alignment is actually going to be a bigger issue for you than the ride height. Do you have front camber plates? If not, you'll want them. If you have camber plates & set them for lots of negative camber, you're going to have excessive toe-out until you get to the alignment shop. I'd just set the stock camber bolts to full negative & leave the camber plates at 0 for now.
You'll also need some way to REDUCE the negative camber in the rear. Lowering will give you too much negative camber in the back, which will make the car harder to rotate.
There are a couple pretty good threads on autox alignment kicking around, if you haven't read them yet.
-Steve
You're probably pretty close to what others are running, if you raise the rear just a smidge. IMHO you should leave the front where it is.
Alignment is actually going to be a bigger issue for you than the ride height. Do you have front camber plates? If not, you'll want them. If you have camber plates & set them for lots of negative camber, you're going to have excessive toe-out until you get to the alignment shop. I'd just set the stock camber bolts to full negative & leave the camber plates at 0 for now.
You'll also need some way to REDUCE the negative camber in the rear. Lowering will give you too much negative camber in the back, which will make the car harder to rotate.
There are a couple pretty good threads on autox alignment kicking around, if you haven't read them yet.
-Steve
| BriDrive | 03-18-2004 11:34 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Brian,
Alignment is actually going to be a bigger issue for you than the ride height. Do you have front camber plates? If not, you'll want them. If you have camber plates & set them for lots of negative camber, you're going to have excessive toe-out until you get to the alignment shop. I'd just set the stock camber bolts to full negative & leave the camber plates at 0 for now.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Steve, This is exactly what I've done with the bolts and the plates...Also the car is only lowered by about 1/2" since last alignment and using an admittedly inaccurate string method last night I'm relatively sure my toe's aren't horrendous...2/16" combined toe out up front, 1/16" combined toe in out back...
Are you saying I shouldn't slam the plates sunday?
I am going to look at the front control arm angles tonight and I think I am instinctively agreeing with you on just bumping the rear up a smidgen....good call....
Brian
[B] Brian,
Alignment is actually going to be a bigger issue for you than the ride height. Do you have front camber plates? If not, you'll want them. If you have camber plates & set them for lots of negative camber, you're going to have excessive toe-out until you get to the alignment shop. I'd just set the stock camber bolts to full negative & leave the camber plates at 0 for now.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Steve, This is exactly what I've done with the bolts and the plates...Also the car is only lowered by about 1/2" since last alignment and using an admittedly inaccurate string method last night I'm relatively sure my toe's aren't horrendous...2/16" combined toe out up front, 1/16" combined toe in out back...
Are you saying I shouldn't slam the plates sunday?
I am going to look at the front control arm angles tonight and I think I am instinctively agreeing with you on just bumping the rear up a smidgen....good call....
Brian
| Fastech | 03-24-2004 11:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]Using the popular scientific measuring method, it's about two fingers between fender lip and tire.
[/B][/QUOTE]
But of course for scientific purposes you need to know exactly how FAT one's fingers are...
Brian Flanagan
Skinny Digits :D
[B]Using the popular scientific measuring method, it's about two fingers between fender lip and tire.
[/B][/QUOTE]
But of course for scientific purposes you need to know exactly how FAT one's fingers are...
Brian Flanagan
Skinny Digits :D
| Fastech | 03-24-2004 11:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]The general rule of thumb is you don't want your control arms to be pointing up. You either want them paralled to the ground or pointing down (at the hub)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I was thinking it was more important for the tie rods to be not beyond parallel rather than the arms...:confused:
Brian Flanagan
Serial ConeKiller
[B]The general rule of thumb is you don't want your control arms to be pointing up. You either want them paralled to the ground or pointing down (at the hub)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I was thinking it was more important for the tie rods to be not beyond parallel rather than the arms...:confused:
Brian Flanagan
Serial ConeKiller
| solo-x | 03-25-2004 08:49 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fastech[/i]
[B] I was thinking it was more important for the tie rods to be not beyond parallel rather than the arms...:confused:
Brian Flanagan
Serial ConeKiller [/B][/QUOTE]
if you were concerned about bump steer you would want the tie rods to be parallel with the control arm. if you were worried about roll center location, you would want the controls arms parallel to the ground.
fwiw, when daddio was in DSP, he wasn't worried about roll center location as much as he was worried about getting the car as low as possible. that makes sense, since a lower ride height will reduce lateral weight transfer, increasing grip at the price of stiffer suspension, while a higher ride height will allow you to run softer suspension at the expense of increased weight transfer and reduced grip. if the name of the game is going fast (and you can't modify the suspension geometry), get the car as low as it can go, then stiffen it up in roll.
nate
[B] I was thinking it was more important for the tie rods to be not beyond parallel rather than the arms...:confused:
Brian Flanagan
Serial ConeKiller [/B][/QUOTE]
if you were concerned about bump steer you would want the tie rods to be parallel with the control arm. if you were worried about roll center location, you would want the controls arms parallel to the ground.
fwiw, when daddio was in DSP, he wasn't worried about roll center location as much as he was worried about getting the car as low as possible. that makes sense, since a lower ride height will reduce lateral weight transfer, increasing grip at the price of stiffer suspension, while a higher ride height will allow you to run softer suspension at the expense of increased weight transfer and reduced grip. if the name of the game is going fast (and you can't modify the suspension geometry), get the car as low as it can go, then stiffen it up in roll.
nate
| ChrisDP | 03-25-2004 01:13 PM |
I guess that's true... when the car is so stiff it doesn't roll, dynamic camber isn't much of an issue. Eeeeenteresting.
Chris, headed back to the machine shop to make some more parts :)
Chris, headed back to the machine shop to make some more parts :)
| KC | 03-25-2004 01:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisDP[/i]
[B] I guess that's true... when the car is so stiff it doesn't roll, dynamic camber isn't much of an issue. Eeeeenteresting.
Chris, headed back to the machine shop to make some more parts :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Good stuff.... I hope?
[B] I guess that's true... when the car is so stiff it doesn't roll, dynamic camber isn't much of an issue. Eeeeenteresting.
Chris, headed back to the machine shop to make some more parts :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Good stuff.... I hope?
| ChrisDP | 03-25-2004 03:15 PM |
Making the parts will be good, should just make the car faster. I've uncovered so many disasters in my suspension from disassembling it and examining parts, I'm surprised the thing turns at all. Amongst others issues, apparently D Stock isn't kind to rear strut tops. Both of my rears were shot. Judging from how bad they wiggle with minor pressure from your fingers, they've been hurting for a while. Grr! But that should all be better soon :D
| KC | 03-25-2004 03:21 PM |
Ever seen a stock tranny mount? :D
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