| Homemade WRX | 08-15-2006 03:49 PM |
OK...time to talk some "fuzzy" SM rules...
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three rules that I find kind of fuzzy or just want to try and debate over...
[B]cutting bumper beam for FMIC fitment:[/B] It is an allowable modification so long as cutting the front beam isn't a performance enhancement and saves more than 1 lb...so if the FMIC installed doesn't save anymore than one pound shouldn't it be allowed? or is it the bumper beam can't loose more than 1 pound, not the whole package?
[B]alky:[/B] I think I must have missed the rule not allowing it...or does it have to be a rule written in allowing its use? technically it would be its own fuel and would require a minimum 5 gal fuel cell.
What about alternative fuels (ethanol and race gas)?
[B]A.L.K.'s[/B]: they use the original attacment point to the chassis. they bolt right to it. yes the front end geometry changes. Brings up thoughts on using the spec c control arm with chassis attachment...it acts like an alk.
let me here thoughts on this.
thanks, Micah
[B]cutting bumper beam for FMIC fitment:[/B] It is an allowable modification so long as cutting the front beam isn't a performance enhancement and saves more than 1 lb...so if the FMIC installed doesn't save anymore than one pound shouldn't it be allowed? or is it the bumper beam can't loose more than 1 pound, not the whole package?
[B]alky:[/B] I think I must have missed the rule not allowing it...or does it have to be a rule written in allowing its use? technically it would be its own fuel and would require a minimum 5 gal fuel cell.
What about alternative fuels (ethanol and race gas)?
[B]A.L.K.'s[/B]: they use the original attacment point to the chassis. they bolt right to it. yes the front end geometry changes. Brings up thoughts on using the spec c control arm with chassis attachment...it acts like an alk.
let me here thoughts on this.
thanks, Micah
| KC | 08-15-2006 03:56 PM |
Alky has been mentioned in the May '06 FastTrack under Tech Bulletins as "No".
[QUOTE]1) All: Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM.[/QUOTE]
No gray area on that one.
--kC
[QUOTE]1) All: Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM.[/QUOTE]
No gray area on that one.
--kC
| waktasz | 08-15-2006 04:06 PM |
You can use water injection though.
| tuskenraider | 08-15-2006 04:08 PM |
[QUOTE]or is it the bumper beam can't loose more than 1 pound[/QUOTE] Correct.
| trhoppe | 08-15-2006 04:11 PM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]
[B]A.L.K.'s[/B]: they use the original attacment point to the chassis. they bolt right to it. yes the front end geometry changes. Brings up thoughts on using the spec c control arm with chassis attachment...it acts like an alk.
[/QUOTE]
They CHANGE the attachment point of the suspension which is a no-no.
Suspension is open, so any thing that moves up and down can be changes. Which makes our balljoint adapters legal ;)
-Tom
[B]A.L.K.'s[/B]: they use the original attacment point to the chassis. they bolt right to it. yes the front end geometry changes. Brings up thoughts on using the spec c control arm with chassis attachment...it acts like an alk.
[/QUOTE]
They CHANGE the attachment point of the suspension which is a no-no.
Suspension is open, so any thing that moves up and down can be changes. Which makes our balljoint adapters legal ;)
-Tom
| PhilC | 08-15-2006 04:51 PM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]three rules that I find kind of fuzzy or just want to try and debate over...
[B]cutting bumper beam for FMIC fitment:[/B] It is an allowable modification so long as cutting the front beam isn't a performance enhancement and saves more than 1 lb...so if the FMIC installed doesn't save anymore than one pound shouldn't it be allowed? or is it the bumper beam can't loose more than 1 pound, not the whole package?
[B]alky:[/B] I think I must have missed the rule not allowing it...or does it have to be a rule written in allowing its use? technically it would be its own fuel and would require a minimum 5 gal fuel cell.
What about alternative fuels (ethanol and race gas)?
[B]A.L.K.'s[/B]: they use the original attacment point to the chassis. they bolt right to it. yes the front end geometry changes. Brings up thoughts on using the spec c control arm with chassis attachment...it acts like an alk.
let me here thoughts on this.
thanks, Micah[/QUOTE]
Bumper beam: Can't lose more than one pound off the beam. CAN use the BFH to make the beam a shape that clears the FMIC, note this probably won't fit under a stock bumper skin but you're allowed to change that.
Alky: General concensus on fuel for SM is that there is no problem running C16 if you want to so race gas is definitely allowed. As mentioned alcohol injection or even alcohol/water mix is not allowed.
ALK: It's SM, you can build custom control arms if you want to but you can't change the mount for those control arms. Rule is simple and clear on that one, if it moves when you move the tire go for it, if it doesn't don't touch it. Buy Tom's stuff so you don't need to build custom control arms.
[B]cutting bumper beam for FMIC fitment:[/B] It is an allowable modification so long as cutting the front beam isn't a performance enhancement and saves more than 1 lb...so if the FMIC installed doesn't save anymore than one pound shouldn't it be allowed? or is it the bumper beam can't loose more than 1 pound, not the whole package?
[B]alky:[/B] I think I must have missed the rule not allowing it...or does it have to be a rule written in allowing its use? technically it would be its own fuel and would require a minimum 5 gal fuel cell.
What about alternative fuels (ethanol and race gas)?
[B]A.L.K.'s[/B]: they use the original attacment point to the chassis. they bolt right to it. yes the front end geometry changes. Brings up thoughts on using the spec c control arm with chassis attachment...it acts like an alk.
let me here thoughts on this.
thanks, Micah[/QUOTE]
Bumper beam: Can't lose more than one pound off the beam. CAN use the BFH to make the beam a shape that clears the FMIC, note this probably won't fit under a stock bumper skin but you're allowed to change that.
Alky: General concensus on fuel for SM is that there is no problem running C16 if you want to so race gas is definitely allowed. As mentioned alcohol injection or even alcohol/water mix is not allowed.
ALK: It's SM, you can build custom control arms if you want to but you can't change the mount for those control arms. Rule is simple and clear on that one, if it moves when you move the tire go for it, if it doesn't don't touch it. Buy Tom's stuff so you don't need to build custom control arms.
| Homemade WRX | 08-15-2006 04:52 PM |
ok, hadn't read the bulletin but is water really legal?...
for alk's then I think the rule needs some clarity at they do use the original attachment point but should read that the suspension's attachment point in reference to the chassis can't change...because with the verbage from the rule book it seems like a loop-hole
and the fmic bumper rule is clarified...so has to be the spec bumper for the given car with no more than one pound missing.
for alk's then I think the rule needs some clarity at they do use the original attachment point but should read that the suspension's attachment point in reference to the chassis can't change...because with the verbage from the rule book it seems like a loop-hole
and the fmic bumper rule is clarified...so has to be the spec bumper for the given car with no more than one pound missing.
| TheWRX | 08-15-2006 09:02 PM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]ok, hadn't read the bulletin but is water really legal?...[/QUOTE]
Water injections is allowed in SP. All SP modifications are also allowed in SM.
Water injections is allowed in SP. All SP modifications are also allowed in SM.
| Harry | 08-15-2006 10:31 PM |
E85?
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Since it's now a federally approved fuel, it would be allowed, as well, correct?
How about in DS?
How about in DS?
| kwh29 | 08-15-2006 10:39 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]They CHANGE the attachment point of the suspension which is a no-no.
Suspension is open, so any thing that moves up and down can be changes. Which makes our balljoint adapters legal ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I've always thought this interpretation was completely bogus. The chassis has flat spots for bushings, threaded holes and bolts welded to the chassis, and elaborate subframes for a reason. Those are the mount points as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately the SMAC has never agreed with this...
--Kevin H.
Suspension is open, so any thing that moves up and down can be changes. Which makes our balljoint adapters legal ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I've always thought this interpretation was completely bogus. The chassis has flat spots for bushings, threaded holes and bolts welded to the chassis, and elaborate subframes for a reason. Those are the mount points as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately the SMAC has never agreed with this...
--Kevin H.
| Patrick Olsen | 08-16-2006 12:55 AM |
I'm with you, Kevin, but obviously we don't matter. :)
| Storm | 08-16-2006 02:39 AM |
The original intent was being able to remove all suspension components from the chassis and allow anything that bolts to those holes.....somewhere along the line that intent went out the window. I never agreed with it but the rule limits everybody. My immediate workaround was an offset delrin bushing within the stock housing.....problem solved! I would think MRT would've developed this type of ALK years ago and ditched the funky housing setup.
Jay Storm
Jay Storm
| PhilC | 08-16-2006 08:55 AM |
Whiteline KCA375s, your offset bushing in the stock housing, legal even in ST* classes.
Personally I'm not sure how anyone can read the current rule on SM suspension and ever interpret it to allow alternate mounts for the control arms (which an ALK is).
Personally I'm not sure how anyone can read the current rule on SM suspension and ever interpret it to allow alternate mounts for the control arms (which an ALK is).
| Homemade WRX | 08-16-2006 12:30 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Whiteline KCA375s, your offset bushing in the stock housing, legal even in ST* classes.
Personally I'm not sure how anyone can read the current rule on SM suspension and ever interpret it to allow alternate mounts for the control arms (which an ALK is).[/QUOTE]
"E. Suspension componenents are unrestricted as long as they use the original attachment points. For the purpose of this rule, "suspension" is defined as any item that is designed to move when a wheel is deflected vertically. This includes shocks and struts, control arms, steering knuckles, uprights, etc., but not tie rods, steering racks, and subframes. IN addition shock absorber/strut upper mounts are to considered suspension components."
yeah, don't know how I missed that before...
Personally I'm not sure how anyone can read the current rule on SM suspension and ever interpret it to allow alternate mounts for the control arms (which an ALK is).[/QUOTE]
"E. Suspension componenents are unrestricted as long as they use the original attachment points. For the purpose of this rule, "suspension" is defined as any item that is designed to move when a wheel is deflected vertically. This includes shocks and struts, control arms, steering knuckles, uprights, etc., but not tie rods, steering racks, and subframes. IN addition shock absorber/strut upper mounts are to considered suspension components."
yeah, don't know how I missed that before...
| GSRNick | 08-16-2006 12:49 PM |
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. "use original attachment points" is pretty self explanatory.
| silver arrow | 08-16-2006 02:33 PM |
Windshield wiper fluid can be used in a meth inj set up, seems that the concern with alcohol inj is fuel not safely stored in the engine bay, but you already have wiper fluid that has meth in it stored there. Why not inj it. No difference in safety, and safety was the reason given for no alky inj.
| Homemade WRX | 08-16-2006 02:35 PM |
[QUOTE=GSRNick]Seems pretty cut and dry to me. "use original attachment points" is pretty self explanatory.[/QUOTE]
well...it does...when they go to specify that only moving parts (minus tophats) are the only things considered suspension is when it clarifies...
well...it does...when they go to specify that only moving parts (minus tophats) are the only things considered suspension is when it clarifies...
| silver arrow | 08-16-2006 02:36 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Whiteline KCA375s, your offset bushing in the stock housing, legal even in ST* classes.
Personally I'm not sure how anyone can read the current rule on SM suspension and ever interpret it to allow alternate mounts for the control arms (which an ALK is).[/QUOTE]
What will this do for me in real terms, did you notice any difference?
Personally I'm not sure how anyone can read the current rule on SM suspension and ever interpret it to allow alternate mounts for the control arms (which an ALK is).[/QUOTE]
What will this do for me in real terms, did you notice any difference?
| Storm | 08-17-2006 12:58 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]What will this do for me in real terms, did you notice any difference?[/QUOTE]The opening that the control arm goes into is in an alternate position that will add caster. It'll do the same thing as an ALK but still use a stock bracket to stay within the rule.
I actually forgot about that PN when I posted about the ALK before.
Jay Storm
I actually forgot about that PN when I posted about the ALK before.
Jay Storm
| KC | 08-17-2006 08:18 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]Windshield wiper fluid can be used in a meth inj set up, seems that the concern with alcohol inj is fuel not safely stored in the engine bay, but you already have wiper fluid that has meth in it stored there. Why not inj it. No difference in safety, and safety was the reason given for no alky inj.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals/faq_answer.asp?typeID=3&is_header=N[/url]
[QUOTE]1. What are the freezing points of water/Methanol ; water/Ethylene Glycol; water/Propylene Glycol mixtures ?
Methanol Conc.
Wt. % (Vol.%) / Freezing Point F(C) / Flash Point, (TCC) F (C)
0 (0) / 32 (0) / No Flash
10 (13) / 20 (-7) / 130 (54)
20 (24) / 0 (-18) / 110 (43)
30 (35) / -15 (-26) / 95 (35)
40 (46) / -40 (-40) / 85 (29)
[B]50 (56) / -65 (-54) / 75 (24)[/B]
60 (66) / -95 (-71) / 70 (21)
70 (75) / -215 (<-73) / 60 (16)
80 (83) / -225 (<-73) / 55 (13)
90 (92) / -230 (<-73) / 55 (13)
100 (100) / -145 (<-73) / 55 (13)[/QUOTE]
Good luck with that as washer fluid usually contans much less than 50% meth. (I think around 20-30%). Also, it's mostly used in the winter mixes and not the summer mixes... and the winter mixes sometimes have other additives in it.
Besides, what part of the rule are you confused with? If the rules don't say you can, then you can't. They specifically had to mention Alky because that was the most common and it was asked for a clarification hence the specific mention.
I read the rule like this... 'Only water injection is allowed. Any other substance other than water is specifically not allowed.'
--kC
[url]http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals/faq_answer.asp?typeID=3&is_header=N[/url]
[QUOTE]1. What are the freezing points of water/Methanol ; water/Ethylene Glycol; water/Propylene Glycol mixtures ?
Methanol Conc.
Wt. % (Vol.%) / Freezing Point F(C) / Flash Point, (TCC) F (C)
0 (0) / 32 (0) / No Flash
10 (13) / 20 (-7) / 130 (54)
20 (24) / 0 (-18) / 110 (43)
30 (35) / -15 (-26) / 95 (35)
40 (46) / -40 (-40) / 85 (29)
[B]50 (56) / -65 (-54) / 75 (24)[/B]
60 (66) / -95 (-71) / 70 (21)
70 (75) / -215 (<-73) / 60 (16)
80 (83) / -225 (<-73) / 55 (13)
90 (92) / -230 (<-73) / 55 (13)
100 (100) / -145 (<-73) / 55 (13)[/QUOTE]
Good luck with that as washer fluid usually contans much less than 50% meth. (I think around 20-30%). Also, it's mostly used in the winter mixes and not the summer mixes... and the winter mixes sometimes have other additives in it.
Besides, what part of the rule are you confused with? If the rules don't say you can, then you can't. They specifically had to mention Alky because that was the most common and it was asked for a clarification hence the specific mention.
I read the rule like this... 'Only water injection is allowed. Any other substance other than water is specifically not allowed.'
--kC
| PhilC | 08-17-2006 08:35 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]What will this do for me in real terms, did you notice any difference?[/QUOTE]
You move the rear of the control arm enough to gain ~.5 degrees of caster. In real world terms I noticed no difference at all except for the reduced compliance from the harder bushings. This could be because I put them in over a winter and we switched tires the next spring and had to change our setup anyways.
You move the rear of the control arm enough to gain ~.5 degrees of caster. In real world terms I noticed no difference at all except for the reduced compliance from the harder bushings. This could be because I put them in over a winter and we switched tires the next spring and had to change our setup anyways.
| Homemade WRX | 08-17-2006 02:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Storm]The opening that the control arm goes into is in an alternate position that will add caster. It'll do the same thing as an ALK but still use a stock bracket to stay within the rule.
I actually forgot about that PN when I posted about the ALK before.
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
see, that kills me...the mounting point (as used to say alk's aren't legal) get's changed regardless...the mount still bolts to the same points on the chassis but the suspensions mounting point (the hole in the bushing and the point that rule is reffering to) is actually changed...and that is what the rule is getting after....
just seems like a BS rule to me...
I actually forgot about that PN when I posted about the ALK before.
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
see, that kills me...the mounting point (as used to say alk's aren't legal) get's changed regardless...the mount still bolts to the same points on the chassis but the suspensions mounting point (the hole in the bushing and the point that rule is reffering to) is actually changed...and that is what the rule is getting after....
just seems like a BS rule to me...
| PhilC | 08-17-2006 02:58 PM |
14.8.B. Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any
materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location.
Offset bushings may be used.
There is your rule that specifically allows the use of the alternate offset bushing. While this rule is actually in the section titled Suspension for ST* (it is also exactly duplicated in 15.8.C for the SP rules) we've already clarified that suspension is specifically defined as a part that moves by the already quoted SM rule.
So you've got a specific allowance for the offset bushing inherited from ST and SP and a specific allowance for doing whatever you want to a suspension part with a very clear definition of what is and is not suspension from the SM rules. Neither allows you to change the mount itself. It's simple and clear.
materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location.
Offset bushings may be used.
There is your rule that specifically allows the use of the alternate offset bushing. While this rule is actually in the section titled Suspension for ST* (it is also exactly duplicated in 15.8.C for the SP rules) we've already clarified that suspension is specifically defined as a part that moves by the already quoted SM rule.
So you've got a specific allowance for the offset bushing inherited from ST and SP and a specific allowance for doing whatever you want to a suspension part with a very clear definition of what is and is not suspension from the SM rules. Neither allows you to change the mount itself. It's simple and clear.
| kwh29 | 08-17-2006 02:58 PM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]"[B]E. Suspension componenents are unrestricted as long as they use the original attachment points. [/B] For the purpose of this rule, "suspension" is defined as any item that is designed to move when a wheel is deflected vertically. This includes shocks and struts, control arms, steering knuckles, uprights, etc., but not tie rods, steering racks, and subframes. IN addition shock absorber/strut upper mounts are to considered suspension components."
yeah, don't know how I missed that before...[/QUOTE]
IIRC the bold part is what SM started with. Then everyone started getting pissy about theoretically putting fomula car suspensions onto stock chassis bolt holes (not that anyone actually figured out how to do that...) and the once wonderfully open ruleset is now just slightly more permissive than ST/SP.
--Kevin H.
yeah, don't know how I missed that before...[/QUOTE]
IIRC the bold part is what SM started with. Then everyone started getting pissy about theoretically putting fomula car suspensions onto stock chassis bolt holes (not that anyone actually figured out how to do that...) and the once wonderfully open ruleset is now just slightly more permissive than ST/SP.
--Kevin H.
| Splash | 08-17-2006 09:35 PM |
Consider the ALK bracket as a really small subframe. Like a small version of a Mustang's K-member.
Mustang folks have been trying to call their front K-member subframe a "suspension component" for years. An ALK bracket is no different. It changes the position where the front control arm mounts. It's that simple...
Now, that's not to say it can't be changed... There is a withdrawn proposal to allow things like Mustang K-members, allowing ALK's in the process... Apparently, there just isn't enough support for it yet.
If ya want it, scream for it... <grin>
Mike
STU 82
Mustang folks have been trying to call their front K-member subframe a "suspension component" for years. An ALK bracket is no different. It changes the position where the front control arm mounts. It's that simple...
Now, that's not to say it can't be changed... There is a withdrawn proposal to allow things like Mustang K-members, allowing ALK's in the process... Apparently, there just isn't enough support for it yet.
If ya want it, scream for it... <grin>
Mike
STU 82
| silver arrow | 08-17-2006 09:53 PM |
[QUOTE=KC][url]http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals/faq_answer.asp?typeID=3&is_header=N[/url]
Good luck with that as washer fluid usually contans much less than 50% meth. (I think around 20-30%). Also, it's mostly used in the winter mixes and not the summer mixes... and the winter mixes sometimes have other additives in it.
Besides, what part of the rule are you confused with? If the rules don't say you can, then you can't. They specifically had to mention Alky because that was the most common and it was asked for a clarification hence the specific mention.
I read the rule like this... 'Only water injection is allowed. Any other substance other than water is specifically not allowed.'
--kC[/QUOTE]
Do you see any benefit to water injection on a ax car?
Good luck with that as washer fluid usually contans much less than 50% meth. (I think around 20-30%). Also, it's mostly used in the winter mixes and not the summer mixes... and the winter mixes sometimes have other additives in it.
Besides, what part of the rule are you confused with? If the rules don't say you can, then you can't. They specifically had to mention Alky because that was the most common and it was asked for a clarification hence the specific mention.
I read the rule like this... 'Only water injection is allowed. Any other substance other than water is specifically not allowed.'
--kC[/QUOTE]
Do you see any benefit to water injection on a ax car?
| KC | 08-17-2006 10:05 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]Do you see any benefit to water injection on a ax car?[/QUOTE]
I have no idea, nor do I care if it has a benefit or not. According to the rules it's the only injection allowed. In the end, that's all that matters.
You cannot run meth on any cars for SCCA Solo.
--kC
I have no idea, nor do I care if it has a benefit or not. According to the rules it's the only injection allowed. In the end, that's all that matters.
You cannot run meth on any cars for SCCA Solo.
--kC
| Homemade WRX | 08-17-2006 11:05 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]Do you see any benefit to water injection on a ax car?[/QUOTE]
yes...if being a serious car though I would run ethanol...more power!!
yes...if being a serious car though I would run ethanol...more power!!
| silver arrow | 08-19-2006 12:09 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]I have no idea, nor do I care if it has a benefit or not. According to the rules it's the only injection allowed. In the end, that's all that matters.
You cannot run meth on any cars for SCCA Solo.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I think we have established that only water is allowed, my question was if someone would see any benefit from it. I know it helps with detonation but the ability to tune more aggressively out weigh the power loss from injecting H2O?
You cannot run meth on any cars for SCCA Solo.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I think we have established that only water is allowed, my question was if someone would see any benefit from it. I know it helps with detonation but the ability to tune more aggressively out weigh the power loss from injecting H2O?
| PhilC | 08-19-2006 07:17 AM |
Well, Joel's car has spent a bit of time on the dyno and he uses water injection. If it didn't help I'm sure he wouldn't carry the extra weight of the water around with him. Remember that on a SP car at least you're asking the turbo to perform well outside of it's compressor efficiency curves and it's going to be making a LOT of heat.
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