| anti.team | 05-20-2004 02:30 PM |
Racing Harness Install
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Ok, I figured that I would ask abut this here rather than in the "Interior" forum since I plan on using my harness for autocross, not for car shows.
I'm getting a harness soon for autocross use but I'm not exactly sure where to anchor the "anti-submarine" strap (the one that goes between your legs). I figured that some of you probably have harnesses already. Where is your's anchored?
I would rather not bolt through the floor. Drilling holes in my floor doesn't sound like much fun.
I'm getting a harness soon for autocross use but I'm not exactly sure where to anchor the "anti-submarine" strap (the one that goes between your legs). I figured that some of you probably have harnesses already. Where is your's anchored?
I would rather not bolt through the floor. Drilling holes in my floor doesn't sound like much fun.
| thrdeye | 05-20-2004 02:34 PM |
if you are just using it for auto x, get a 3 point and save some money
| Calamity Jesus | 05-20-2004 03:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by thrdeye[/i]
[B] if you are just using it for auto x, get a 3 point and save some money [/B][/QUOTE]
[B] if you are just using it for auto x, get a 3 point and save some money [/B][/QUOTE]
| rockt104 | 05-20-2004 03:44 PM |
3-Point is all you need...I tied into the babyseat thingy behind the rear seat with one of those rope climbing thingy hooks. You know what I mean...
Kevin
Kevin
| gregr01 | 05-20-2004 04:07 PM |
I recently installed a harness bar and driver/passenger 5-point harnesses.
For the anti-sub strap, go to your local home improvement store and buy a piece of 1/8" 90-degree welding steel, about 1 inch wide on either side (like an L, but with equal sides). I bought a 36" piece and cut it in two (I needed just about 18" x 2, one for each side).
Carefully measure the centerline distance between your two front seat mount holes, and then drill corresponding holes in the steel. Mount it finger tight, and scribe a mark where you want the anti-sub strap to mount on the bar.
Tools needed:
- rotary cut-off tool (or hacksaw)
- drill
- bench grinder (or big file)
Be sure to use a grade 8 or better bolt for securing the strap. I didn't need longer bolts for the seats, but if you do be sure to use grade 8 or better bolts there as well.
To finish the mounting bar I wrapped it up in black racer tape after rounding all sharp edges with a bench grinder.
HTH,
gr.
For the anti-sub strap, go to your local home improvement store and buy a piece of 1/8" 90-degree welding steel, about 1 inch wide on either side (like an L, but with equal sides). I bought a 36" piece and cut it in two (I needed just about 18" x 2, one for each side).
Carefully measure the centerline distance between your two front seat mount holes, and then drill corresponding holes in the steel. Mount it finger tight, and scribe a mark where you want the anti-sub strap to mount on the bar.
Tools needed:
- rotary cut-off tool (or hacksaw)
- drill
- bench grinder (or big file)
Be sure to use a grade 8 or better bolt for securing the strap. I didn't need longer bolts for the seats, but if you do be sure to use grade 8 or better bolts there as well.
To finish the mounting bar I wrapped it up in black racer tape after rounding all sharp edges with a bench grinder.
HTH,
gr.
| SpaceHamster | 05-20-2004 05:09 PM |
Greg, can we convince you to post some pics of your setup? Ill be needing a harness soon as well. Which bar did you get and what are your impressions?
| Ryan | 05-20-2004 05:39 PM |
[url]http://simpsonraceproducts.com/catalog/restraints/restinfo_seating.asp#popUpright[/url]
[img]http://simpsonraceproducts.com/catalog/restraints/restinfo/big_up6pt.gif[/img]
[img]http://simpsonraceproducts.com/catalog/restraints/restinfo/big_up6pt.gif[/img]
| bemani | 05-20-2004 07:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by thrdeye [/i]
[B]if you are just using it for auto x, get a 3 point and save some money [/B][/QUOTE]
Get a 5 point if you can - the waist belt just gets pulled up when you tighten your shoulder straps for 3/4 point harnesses.
[B]if you are just using it for auto x, get a 3 point and save some money [/B][/QUOTE]
Get a 5 point if you can - the waist belt just gets pulled up when you tighten your shoulder straps for 3/4 point harnesses.
| anti.team | 05-20-2004 09:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SpaceHamster[/i]
[B] Greg, can we convince you to post some pics of your setup? Ill be needing a harness soon as well. Which bar did you get and what are your impressions? [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree! It sounds exactly like what I've been looking for!
[B] Greg, can we convince you to post some pics of your setup? Ill be needing a harness soon as well. Which bar did you get and what are your impressions? [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree! It sounds exactly like what I've been looking for!
| gregr01 | 05-20-2004 09:15 PM |
It's a Speedware bar, bought second hand. I had to go out and buy my own mounting bolts, which is okay, as I would have replaced them anyway with grade 10.9 bolts (metric, strongest you can get).
It's an extremely tight fit, and will do some cosmetic damage to the B-pillar trim. I put a little racer tape on the inside of the bar mounts to mitigate damage. Once installed it must give additional bracing to the chassis, but I can't really tell -- I do have front and rear strut tower braces as well.
Here are pix (yes, I know the sub angle mount isn't ideal. It's okay for my purposes):
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/pas_seat.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/sub_bar.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/sub_bar1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/pass_b.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/drive_b1.jpg[/IMG]
It's an extremely tight fit, and will do some cosmetic damage to the B-pillar trim. I put a little racer tape on the inside of the bar mounts to mitigate damage. Once installed it must give additional bracing to the chassis, but I can't really tell -- I do have front and rear strut tower braces as well.
Here are pix (yes, I know the sub angle mount isn't ideal. It's okay for my purposes):
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/pas_seat.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/sub_bar.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/sub_bar1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/pass_b.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/drive_b1.jpg[/IMG]
| WRXedUSA | 05-21-2004 09:55 PM |
Nice setup there Greg.
I have a 3pt Sabelt clubman in my car for AutoX. It's all you need. I only use it so I can regulate my braking and feel the car better in the corners.
Some will give you crap about having a harness for autoX. But I say it helps.
I have a 3pt Sabelt clubman in my car for AutoX. It's all you need. I only use it so I can regulate my braking and feel the car better in the corners.
Some will give you crap about having a harness for autoX. But I say it helps.
| 2cam16 | 05-22-2004 12:03 AM |
Quick question: Does it mater if the date on the harness is way past or do they not check for that at tech ?
Thanks
Thanks
| gregr01 | 05-22-2004 12:30 AM |
If I cared what others thought I wouldn't be driving a bling bling STi. I was just days away from buying a mid-90s 911 when I changed my mind for the Suby. :D
If you're going to go through the trouble of installing any harness, a 5 (or 6) point is the only way to go. The STi's seats are only marginal in terms of motorsports driving, but add in the harness and they're plenty good enough. And they tuck neatly away for daily driving use when I use my OEM belt.
I'm not a serious autoxer, as I much prefer road racing -- or HPDE's for now as that's all I have time & $ for lately (plus karting). Besides, without a proper roll bar/cage the harness is just there to keep my butt properly placed behind the wheel.
As far as old belts go, I don't think any autox tech is going to even look at the label. Maybe at an SCCA event, but not at any I've been to lately. They didn't look at the one HPDE I've done either, but I wouldn't go out on a circuit like the Phoenix roval with old belts.
OTOH, new certified belts are cheap. I bought my FIA certified 5-point camlock belts for 109.99 each, with free shipping from [URL=http://www.saferacer.com/5pocahaset.html]SafeRacer.com[/URL]. Sweet deal for new belts in your choice of black, red or blue.
If you're going to go through the trouble of installing any harness, a 5 (or 6) point is the only way to go. The STi's seats are only marginal in terms of motorsports driving, but add in the harness and they're plenty good enough. And they tuck neatly away for daily driving use when I use my OEM belt.
I'm not a serious autoxer, as I much prefer road racing -- or HPDE's for now as that's all I have time & $ for lately (plus karting). Besides, without a proper roll bar/cage the harness is just there to keep my butt properly placed behind the wheel.
As far as old belts go, I don't think any autox tech is going to even look at the label. Maybe at an SCCA event, but not at any I've been to lately. They didn't look at the one HPDE I've done either, but I wouldn't go out on a circuit like the Phoenix roval with old belts.
OTOH, new certified belts are cheap. I bought my FIA certified 5-point camlock belts for 109.99 each, with free shipping from [URL=http://www.saferacer.com/5pocahaset.html]SafeRacer.com[/URL]. Sweet deal for new belts in your choice of black, red or blue.
| Ryan | 05-22-2004 03:20 PM |
Harnesses w/o a rollbar?
| BlueSTI4Me | 05-22-2004 11:40 PM |
What ever!
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ryan [/i]
[B]Harnesses w/o a rollbar? [/B][/QUOTE]
Life without living?
Blue:D :banana: :D
[B]Harnesses w/o a rollbar? [/B][/QUOTE]
Life without living?
Blue:D :banana: :D
| Scott Farmer | 06-28-2005 08:35 PM |
[QUOTE=Ryan]Harnesses w/o a rollbar?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, pretty dangerous, although rollovers are rare at autocrosses, so I wouldn't call it dangerous.
Yeah, pretty dangerous, although rollovers are rare at autocrosses, so I wouldn't call it dangerous.
| funsti | 06-29-2005 11:13 AM |
Where are you anchoring the shoulder belts? I have a speedware bar and g-force 6 point camlock harnesses and haven't installed them yet. I'm resolved to drill four holes in the floor pan to handle the rest of the belts but I'm not sure about the shoulders. I think you can connect one of the shoulder belts to the same place that the harness bar connects to at the bottom. But the other one I'm at a loss, I guess I have to drill another hole? I thought to try bolting the other shoulder belt where the inside seat rail bolts in with a longer bolt but that's no good because it won't mount up flush without hacking away a lot of the seat rail.
| gregr01 | 06-29-2005 11:25 AM |
Shoulder belts connect directly to the harness bar (which is the purpose of the harness bar).
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/pass_b.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/pass_b.jpg[/IMG]
| Roy Dietsch | 06-29-2005 11:35 AM |
drill a hole in the floor!
Roy
Roy
| funsti | 06-29-2005 11:39 AM |
Huh, I'm confused. I've seen pictures of a harness bar with the belts wrapped around and fed through and then bolted down behind the seats on the floor.
So you just remove the bolt in ends that come on the shoulder harnesses and just use that strap clip thing huh? I knew that the main reason to have the harness bar is to make sure that the belts come back at the proper angle so that your spine doesn't compress in a collision but I didn't know you could just strap them to the bar itself without also bolting them somewhere.
So you just remove the bolt in ends that come on the shoulder harnesses and just use that strap clip thing huh? I knew that the main reason to have the harness bar is to make sure that the belts come back at the proper angle so that your spine doesn't compress in a collision but I didn't know you could just strap them to the bar itself without also bolting them somewhere.
| turboICE | 06-29-2005 12:03 PM |
A 6 point is meant for reclined seating it is overkill for upright seating. A single sub belt is more than sufficient to keep the lap belt down in place on the hips. With a 5 point the sub belt can be attached through the support for the front seat brackets with a carraige bolt. The lap belts can be attached to the seat belt lower mount and the inside rear seat base using longer 10.4 bolts in place of the OEM. No holes are required in the floor pan and all points are securely attached on structurally sound locations.
Besides locating the shoulder straps the other reason for a bar rather than some attachment method that involves going to the rear seat or floor for the shoulder belts is that belts stretch the more material from attachment to harness the more it will stretch - rollover or not if you hit something with 60" of webbing for shoulder harnesses it is going to stretch alot and you are going to move forward a substantial amount.
Besides locating the shoulder straps the other reason for a bar rather than some attachment method that involves going to the rear seat or floor for the shoulder belts is that belts stretch the more material from attachment to harness the more it will stretch - rollover or not if you hit something with 60" of webbing for shoulder harnesses it is going to stretch alot and you are going to move forward a substantial amount.
| WRXedUSA | 06-29-2005 12:32 PM |
I dunno about all this talk about drilling tapping, strapping hooking. For a 3pt, which is all you need for AutoX, the Subaru is pratically install ready for the harness.
There is one anchor hole bolt that goes into the rear seatbelt junction under the bench. They anchor on the drivers right hip you need to remove the rear seat bolt and replace with eye hole bolt, and the drivers left hip there is actually a hold ready for you to screw in the eye hole bolt under the carpet near the lower seatbelt mounting point.
The Sabelt 3pt clubman comes with all the hardware and it bolts in in about 15 minutes.
There is one anchor hole bolt that goes into the rear seatbelt junction under the bench. They anchor on the drivers right hip you need to remove the rear seat bolt and replace with eye hole bolt, and the drivers left hip there is actually a hold ready for you to screw in the eye hole bolt under the carpet near the lower seatbelt mounting point.
The Sabelt 3pt clubman comes with all the hardware and it bolts in in about 15 minutes.
| turboICE | 06-29-2005 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA]I dunno about all this talk about drilling tapping, strapping hooking. For a 3pt, which is all you need for AutoX, the Subaru is pratically install ready for the harness.[/quote]Actually it comes installed with a 3 point. ;) Just use a CG lock for auto-x.
[quote]There is one anchor hole bolt that goes into the rear seatbelt junction under the bench. They anchor on the drivers right hip you need to remove the rear seat bolt and replace with eye hole bolt, and the drivers left hip there is actually a hold ready for you to screw in the eye hole bolt under the carpet near the lower seatbelt mounting point.
The Sabelt 3pt clubman comes with all the hardware and it bolts in in about 15 minutes.[/QUOTE]Don't hit anything - you don't want to see how much stretch those things have in a collision, especially if you have followed the advice to disconnect the airbags when wearing helmets.
[quote]There is one anchor hole bolt that goes into the rear seatbelt junction under the bench. They anchor on the drivers right hip you need to remove the rear seat bolt and replace with eye hole bolt, and the drivers left hip there is actually a hold ready for you to screw in the eye hole bolt under the carpet near the lower seatbelt mounting point.
The Sabelt 3pt clubman comes with all the hardware and it bolts in in about 15 minutes.[/QUOTE]Don't hit anything - you don't want to see how much stretch those things have in a collision, especially if you have followed the advice to disconnect the airbags when wearing helmets.
| Sean | 06-29-2005 10:05 PM |
[img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/Scrapbook/Gallery/WTLW/harnessangle.gif[/img]
:D
[url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/img][/url] [url=http://www.clutchdrop.com/]NESIC Web Site[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/]Trunkmonkey FAQ[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/]Trunkmonkey Racing[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/gallery/Trunkmonkeys/]Trunkmonkeys in Action[/url]
:D
[url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/img][/url] [url=http://www.clutchdrop.com/]NESIC Web Site[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/]Trunkmonkey FAQ[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/]Trunkmonkey Racing[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/gallery/Trunkmonkeys/]Trunkmonkeys in Action[/url]
| JoBoo | 03-09-2006 12:16 PM |
For those of you who are not using the Sparco harness bar where there are 2 little welded rails to keep your shoulder harness from sliding around...
what are you doing to keep your shoulder harness from sliding around the curved end of the harness bar?
I have an autopower 4pt rollcage with the weld in harness bar and with the 3" Gforce belts the outside shoulder belt inevitably slides around the cured part of the bar when I tighten them down.
For now I have the 2 shoulder belts 'X' behind the seat to keep them in place. I have an Evo seat and its at least a foot from the harness bar. I know this is less than ideal, but it'll work. probably have more slack in the system on an impact, but still solid. The buckles are not in the way of each other.
The other thing I can do is wrap the webbing around the bar once, and secure the ends of the straps to the other shoulder harness, effectivly tying the 2 together. This has potential to be neater and with the webbing not loaded at an angle on the bar. With a full wrap of the harness bar in between the 2, one will not directly load the other belt when pulling on one.
Just some thoughts right now. anyone else have this problem or have comments on what to try or not to try? Thanks.
what are you doing to keep your shoulder harness from sliding around the curved end of the harness bar?
I have an autopower 4pt rollcage with the weld in harness bar and with the 3" Gforce belts the outside shoulder belt inevitably slides around the cured part of the bar when I tighten them down.
For now I have the 2 shoulder belts 'X' behind the seat to keep them in place. I have an Evo seat and its at least a foot from the harness bar. I know this is less than ideal, but it'll work. probably have more slack in the system on an impact, but still solid. The buckles are not in the way of each other.
The other thing I can do is wrap the webbing around the bar once, and secure the ends of the straps to the other shoulder harness, effectivly tying the 2 together. This has potential to be neater and with the webbing not loaded at an angle on the bar. With a full wrap of the harness bar in between the 2, one will not directly load the other belt when pulling on one.
Just some thoughts right now. anyone else have this problem or have comments on what to try or not to try? Thanks.
| ghschirtz | 03-09-2006 08:21 PM |
Has anyone looked at the Schroth harness that attaches into the existing seatbelt buckles, etc? I have been going through the same concern for lap days, wanting better rear end location than the OEM three-point. I will have to look into the Speedware and Sparco bars, as theat was my original idea.
Thanks in advance.
George
Thanks in advance.
George
| AlexP | 03-09-2006 08:29 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]A 6 point is meant for reclined seating it is overkill for upright seating.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly. Recent testing (I'll try and find links) have shown that 6 point harnesses can be very beneficial even when used in upright seating positions. This is from the current SCCA GCR:
[QUOTE=GCR]1. A five point system, for use in automobiles where the driver is
seated in an upright position, consists of a three (3) inch seat
belt, an approximately three (3) inch strap over the shoulder
type of shoulder harness, and an approximately two (2) inch
anti submarine strap. A Five-point harness is considered a
minimum restraint system. Six or seven-point systems are highly
recommended in all cars including automobiles where the driver
is seated in an upright position.
2. A six or seven point system, recommended for use in all
automobiles, consists of a three (3) inch seat belt or an FIA
approved two (2) inch seat belt (SFI 2-inch seat belts are not
currently allowed), approximately a three (3) inch strap over the
shoulder type of shoulder harness, and two approximately two
(2) inch leg or anti submarine straps. The seven-point system
also has an approximately two (2) inch anti-submarine strap.[/QUOTE]
Of course, I'm sure your view of the SCCA as being part of the "vast pro-manufacturers conspiracy against small safety equipment manufacturers" probably deems this info useless to you... but perhaps others will benefit.
PS. Just received my hans, and the hans-specific schroth harness is on its way (not the dual belt ones... the 2" shoulder belt ones)
Not exactly. Recent testing (I'll try and find links) have shown that 6 point harnesses can be very beneficial even when used in upright seating positions. This is from the current SCCA GCR:
[QUOTE=GCR]1. A five point system, for use in automobiles where the driver is
seated in an upright position, consists of a three (3) inch seat
belt, an approximately three (3) inch strap over the shoulder
type of shoulder harness, and an approximately two (2) inch
anti submarine strap. A Five-point harness is considered a
minimum restraint system. Six or seven-point systems are highly
recommended in all cars including automobiles where the driver
is seated in an upright position.
2. A six or seven point system, recommended for use in all
automobiles, consists of a three (3) inch seat belt or an FIA
approved two (2) inch seat belt (SFI 2-inch seat belts are not
currently allowed), approximately a three (3) inch strap over the
shoulder type of shoulder harness, and two approximately two
(2) inch leg or anti submarine straps. The seven-point system
also has an approximately two (2) inch anti-submarine strap.[/QUOTE]
Of course, I'm sure your view of the SCCA as being part of the "vast pro-manufacturers conspiracy against small safety equipment manufacturers" probably deems this info useless to you... but perhaps others will benefit.
PS. Just received my hans, and the hans-specific schroth harness is on its way (not the dual belt ones... the 2" shoulder belt ones)
| BIGSKYWRX | 03-09-2006 09:14 PM |
[QUOTE=ghschirtz]Has anyone looked at the Schroth harness that attaches into the existing seatbelt buckles, etc? I have been going through the same concern for lap days, wanting better rear end location than the OEM three-point. I will have to look into the Speedware and Sparco bars, as theat was my original idea.
Thanks in advance.
George[/QUOTE]
I installed one recently- I have a tutorial up at scoobymods w/ pics.
Once the two provided short lengths of belt and clips are (the other two ends use the oem receptacles) installed it's about a 30 second "install", after the event a 30 second "de-install" :)
Thanks in advance.
George[/QUOTE]
I installed one recently- I have a tutorial up at scoobymods w/ pics.
Once the two provided short lengths of belt and clips are (the other two ends use the oem receptacles) installed it's about a 30 second "install", after the event a 30 second "de-install" :)
| turboICE | 03-09-2006 11:19 PM |
Alex, you can be a tool when you choose to participate in a discussion or you can handle disagreement with maturity, that choice is a conscious one you get to make with free will each time you hit submit reply.
First, the comment you have chosen to respond to was made 9 months ago in June 2005. (Not that it was any more valid then than it is now, but please.) Correcting the statement because it was bumped up to current is fine - but what benefit did the tude add to your response? Are you in some narcissistic way trying to overcome some dissatisfaction with your own perceived inferiority by lashing out anonymously at others over the internet?
Second, you are late to the party Craig2000RS already corrected the view I espoused more recently in a March 1st thread, and I said that if such testing actually existed that I stood corrected. And contingent on all this evidence that is so readily available, I still do stand corrected - I am capable of admitting when I am incorrect. Though I still can't find all this objective testing evidencing that 6 point harnesses perform better than 5 point used in a sedan in an upright position. Why does anyone even sell 5 points anymore?
Third, my complaints regarding the environment, manner and parties involved in developing specifically SFI 38.1 can neither be expanded to other areas of safety nor landed on the SCCA as I never did neither one. Attributing positions that I have made beyond the subject matter covered in my statements shows either a lack of or flawed sense of simple logic. I note you don't have a problem with the SCCA exclusion of an SFI product...
Fourth, I am glad that you obtained the equipment that you desired to use to protect yourself and that no one is trying to prevent you from using what you see fit. Getting something is better than not, and I never said the HANS shouldn't be used. Use it in good health and hope none of us ever need to live test any of our safety equipment.
Be well.
Ed.
PS - since there is likely no reason at all to think that a 6 point would be less effective - my next harness set will be 6 point even without all these supposed tests based on several comments I have received in feedback here and elsewhere - the rest of which were constructively offered.
First, the comment you have chosen to respond to was made 9 months ago in June 2005. (Not that it was any more valid then than it is now, but please.) Correcting the statement because it was bumped up to current is fine - but what benefit did the tude add to your response? Are you in some narcissistic way trying to overcome some dissatisfaction with your own perceived inferiority by lashing out anonymously at others over the internet?
Second, you are late to the party Craig2000RS already corrected the view I espoused more recently in a March 1st thread, and I said that if such testing actually existed that I stood corrected. And contingent on all this evidence that is so readily available, I still do stand corrected - I am capable of admitting when I am incorrect. Though I still can't find all this objective testing evidencing that 6 point harnesses perform better than 5 point used in a sedan in an upright position. Why does anyone even sell 5 points anymore?
Third, my complaints regarding the environment, manner and parties involved in developing specifically SFI 38.1 can neither be expanded to other areas of safety nor landed on the SCCA as I never did neither one. Attributing positions that I have made beyond the subject matter covered in my statements shows either a lack of or flawed sense of simple logic. I note you don't have a problem with the SCCA exclusion of an SFI product...
Fourth, I am glad that you obtained the equipment that you desired to use to protect yourself and that no one is trying to prevent you from using what you see fit. Getting something is better than not, and I never said the HANS shouldn't be used. Use it in good health and hope none of us ever need to live test any of our safety equipment.
Be well.
Ed.
PS - since there is likely no reason at all to think that a 6 point would be less effective - my next harness set will be 6 point even without all these supposed tests based on several comments I have received in feedback here and elsewhere - the rest of which were constructively offered.
| Calamity Jesus | 03-10-2006 10:35 AM |
[QUOTE=bemani]Get a 5 point if you can - the waist belt just gets pulled up when you tighten your shoulder straps for 3/4 point harnesses.[/QUOTE]
Not if you tighten the lap belt properly before tightening the shoulder harness. ;)
The anti-submarine straps on a 5 & 6 point harness are not there to keep the belts from raising during strap-in. If they are, you probably need your lap belt tighter.
Not if you tighten the lap belt properly before tightening the shoulder harness. ;)
The anti-submarine straps on a 5 & 6 point harness are not there to keep the belts from raising during strap-in. If they are, you probably need your lap belt tighter.
| AlexP | 03-10-2006 08:52 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]Alex, you can be a tool[/quote]
Hello, kettle? You're black. -Pot
Questioning the uninformed (and the malinformed, in your situation) is what I do.
[quote]
Are you in some narcissistic way trying to overcome some dissatisfaction with your own perceived inferiority by lashing out anonymously at others over the internet?
[/quote]
Did you hear that on Dr. Phil or Oprah? Come on, man, if you want to insult me just call me a "tool" (as you did) or something better. Using lots of big words and psycho-terms is just a waste of electrons. Also, you forgot to throw in the old "small manhood" comment in there... But I guess we all dig fast cars so then we must all have small junk, huh?
Lets examine each item I wrote:
[QUOTE=me]]Not exactly. Recent testing (I'll try and find links) have shown that 6 point harnesses can be very beneficial even when used in upright seating positions. This is from the current SCCA GCR:[/QUOTE]
I'm sure you can agree that this is purely informational. There is no sarcasm here. There are no insults. Next item:
[quote=me]
Of course, I'm sure your view of the SCCA as being part of the "vast pro-manufacturers conspiracy against small safety equipment manufacturers" probably deems this info useless to you... but perhaps others will benefit.
[/quote]
Is this not true? The use of the word "conspiracy" was indeed used to "spice" up the response, but is it not true that you believe the SFI to be a manufacture/standards conflict of interest that yields results only beneficial to member equipment manufacturers (which number in the hundreds)? Did you not find my information useless (It appears you did as you said you had already researched it)? Will other's benefit? I would believe so, as people reading this thread but not your earlier correction would be happy being perfectly content with a 5-point (and personally, I feel that a 5 point is perfectly acceptable for many race applications, including my own.. the only reason I'm now going with a 6-pt is because that is the only option with FIA 2" shoulderbelts... at least from schroth)?
[quote]
PS. Just received my hans, and the hans-specific schroth harness is on its way (not the dual belt ones... the 2" shoulder belt ones)
[/quote]
You've said NUMEROUS times (including this thread) that any H&N is better than none. So what's wrong with this?
You are taking your SFI crusade way too seriously.
Hello, kettle? You're black. -Pot
Questioning the uninformed (and the malinformed, in your situation) is what I do.
[quote]
Are you in some narcissistic way trying to overcome some dissatisfaction with your own perceived inferiority by lashing out anonymously at others over the internet?
[/quote]
Did you hear that on Dr. Phil or Oprah? Come on, man, if you want to insult me just call me a "tool" (as you did) or something better. Using lots of big words and psycho-terms is just a waste of electrons. Also, you forgot to throw in the old "small manhood" comment in there... But I guess we all dig fast cars so then we must all have small junk, huh?
Lets examine each item I wrote:
[QUOTE=me]]Not exactly. Recent testing (I'll try and find links) have shown that 6 point harnesses can be very beneficial even when used in upright seating positions. This is from the current SCCA GCR:[/QUOTE]
I'm sure you can agree that this is purely informational. There is no sarcasm here. There are no insults. Next item:
[quote=me]
Of course, I'm sure your view of the SCCA as being part of the "vast pro-manufacturers conspiracy against small safety equipment manufacturers" probably deems this info useless to you... but perhaps others will benefit.
[/quote]
Is this not true? The use of the word "conspiracy" was indeed used to "spice" up the response, but is it not true that you believe the SFI to be a manufacture/standards conflict of interest that yields results only beneficial to member equipment manufacturers (which number in the hundreds)? Did you not find my information useless (It appears you did as you said you had already researched it)? Will other's benefit? I would believe so, as people reading this thread but not your earlier correction would be happy being perfectly content with a 5-point (and personally, I feel that a 5 point is perfectly acceptable for many race applications, including my own.. the only reason I'm now going with a 6-pt is because that is the only option with FIA 2" shoulderbelts... at least from schroth)?
[quote]
PS. Just received my hans, and the hans-specific schroth harness is on its way (not the dual belt ones... the 2" shoulder belt ones)
[/quote]
You've said NUMEROUS times (including this thread) that any H&N is better than none. So what's wrong with this?
You are taking your SFI crusade way too seriously.
| turboICE | 03-10-2006 09:18 PM |
I never said you were a tool - I said you could choose to be one or not. At no point did I say you were one.
I never insulted you - I asked if it was "your own perceived" - I don't know you and never made a statement insulting you or passing judgement on you.
I never made any comment that there was a consiparacy of any sort and especially not your quote - "vast pro-manufacturers conspiracy against small safety equipment manufacturers".
Comprehend what I composed in the same manner that you have chosen to seek understanding of what you wrote.
I have stated that I believe based on independently developed reports from journalists (the source of which I have previously linked to) that SFI 38.1 specifically was developed and passed through the SFI's own incapability to write the standard and outsourcing it to NASCAR whose advisors and experts on the subject are tied financially to the success of HANS. I never said that the SFI harness standards were similarly flawed - so other than to incite a response, the relevance of my position on 38.1 regarding H&N restraints and a 9 month old comment on my understanding of harnesses as communicated by harness manufactures is beyond me. My only complaint about the SFI harness standard as I have publicly stated before is that since FIA & SFI compliant harnesses are good for 5 years under FIA but only 2 years under SFI is that the manufacturer centric view of SFI hurts consumers by unreasonably requiring recertification every 2 years. The SFI belt standard doesn't have any rules unrelated to restraining the driver in the seat and unreasonably restrict competition - as section 2.5 of 38.1 is completely unrelated to reducing forces exerted on the neck.
A safety standard that limits availability of safety equipment can not be taken too far in it is a 38.1 crusade not an SFI crusade. And I did not introduce the topic to this thread, you did.
With your interest in the best the SCCA has to recommend why not a seven point?
[QUOTE]20. DRIVER�S RESTRAINT SYSTEM
All drivers in SCCA sanctioned speed events shall utilize either a five, six or seven point restraint harness meeting the following specifications. A seven-point restraint harness is recommended.[/QUOTE]
Also how are you going to install the 6 point? SCCA GCR is sorely lacking in installation guidelines that would actually benefit from a dual sub strap. They would permit installations that would have no additional benefit.
I never insulted you - I asked if it was "your own perceived" - I don't know you and never made a statement insulting you or passing judgement on you.
I never made any comment that there was a consiparacy of any sort and especially not your quote - "vast pro-manufacturers conspiracy against small safety equipment manufacturers".
Comprehend what I composed in the same manner that you have chosen to seek understanding of what you wrote.
I have stated that I believe based on independently developed reports from journalists (the source of which I have previously linked to) that SFI 38.1 specifically was developed and passed through the SFI's own incapability to write the standard and outsourcing it to NASCAR whose advisors and experts on the subject are tied financially to the success of HANS. I never said that the SFI harness standards were similarly flawed - so other than to incite a response, the relevance of my position on 38.1 regarding H&N restraints and a 9 month old comment on my understanding of harnesses as communicated by harness manufactures is beyond me. My only complaint about the SFI harness standard as I have publicly stated before is that since FIA & SFI compliant harnesses are good for 5 years under FIA but only 2 years under SFI is that the manufacturer centric view of SFI hurts consumers by unreasonably requiring recertification every 2 years. The SFI belt standard doesn't have any rules unrelated to restraining the driver in the seat and unreasonably restrict competition - as section 2.5 of 38.1 is completely unrelated to reducing forces exerted on the neck.
A safety standard that limits availability of safety equipment can not be taken too far in it is a 38.1 crusade not an SFI crusade. And I did not introduce the topic to this thread, you did.
With your interest in the best the SCCA has to recommend why not a seven point?
[QUOTE]20. DRIVER�S RESTRAINT SYSTEM
All drivers in SCCA sanctioned speed events shall utilize either a five, six or seven point restraint harness meeting the following specifications. A seven-point restraint harness is recommended.[/QUOTE]
Also how are you going to install the 6 point? SCCA GCR is sorely lacking in installation guidelines that would actually benefit from a dual sub strap. They would permit installations that would have no additional benefit.
| AlexP | 03-10-2006 09:51 PM |
[quote]With your interest in the best the SCCA has to recommend why not a seven point?[/quote]
And where do [I][B]I[/B][/I] recommend a 6 point? [Again] I personally feel that a 5 point is sufficient for my usage, and the only reason for purchasing a 6 point was for hans compatibility. My original post was only to point out that a 6 point (and indeed a 7 point) are NOT overkill, as you had stated. I don't have an onboard fire system, I don't wear nomex underwear, and I dont run with a fuel cell, either. None of these are required by the SCCA for my class, and none are "overkill", either. There is no such thing as safety overkill to somebody that feels they are unsafe.
[quote]
Also how are you going to install the 6 point?
[/QUOTE]
The same way I wear my hans, wash my driver's suit, strap on my helmet, wire my master switch, mount my seat, and operate my fire extinguisher:
[B]As per manufacturer's directions.[/B]
;)
And where do [I][B]I[/B][/I] recommend a 6 point? [Again] I personally feel that a 5 point is sufficient for my usage, and the only reason for purchasing a 6 point was for hans compatibility. My original post was only to point out that a 6 point (and indeed a 7 point) are NOT overkill, as you had stated. I don't have an onboard fire system, I don't wear nomex underwear, and I dont run with a fuel cell, either. None of these are required by the SCCA for my class, and none are "overkill", either. There is no such thing as safety overkill to somebody that feels they are unsafe.
[quote]
Also how are you going to install the 6 point?
[/QUOTE]
The same way I wear my hans, wash my driver's suit, strap on my helmet, wire my master switch, mount my seat, and operate my fire extinguisher:
[B]As per manufacturer's directions.[/B]
;)
| turboICE | 03-10-2006 11:40 PM |
Fair, enough, as stated previously I stand corrected on my previous position regarding 6 points. Said recent corrections causing me to do additional research and learn more, always a plus.
Though I do have a new position to communicate to others regarding 6 points that improperly installed the additional benefit of the dual sub straps is at a minimum wasted, perhaps worse.
Though I do have a new position to communicate to others regarding 6 points that improperly installed the additional benefit of the dual sub straps is at a minimum wasted, perhaps worse.
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