| jds | 09-03-2002 12:17 PM |
Solo II: Stock Classes and Camber Bolts
Over the weekend, I had a conversation with Howard Duncan about camber bolts and SCCA Stock classes. Essentially, what Howard had to say was that camber bolts would be OK [B]if[/B] the factory service manual or a TSB authorizes the use of camber bolts.
Has anybody checked the factory manual to see if camber bolts are mentioned? If so, can you post the text from the manual here so we can check it out?
If not, perhaps a nicely written letter to SOA could convince them to issue a TSB so we Solo II'ers can get a bit more camber up front.
What's everyone's thoughts?
-jds
Has anybody checked the factory manual to see if camber bolts are mentioned? If so, can you post the text from the manual here so we can check it out?
If not, perhaps a nicely written letter to SOA could convince them to issue a TSB so we Solo II'ers can get a bit more camber up front.
What's everyone's thoughts?
-jds
| trhoppe | 09-03-2002 12:43 PM |
no and no :lol:
We can have -1.5 degrees with the stock bolts up front.
factory manuals specify the use of aftermarket camber bolts as "crash" bolts. If you car gets in an accident and some suspension component is bent you can use crash bolts to get back to factory specs. The subaru manual specifically states that "parts should be replaced after an accident if they are not 100% straight" There is no chance in hell that SOA would change that or throw a TSB in there for that.
Our -1.5 is a lot better then the 0 that acuras, bmw and cooper Ss are allowed in DS.
-Tom
We can have -1.5 degrees with the stock bolts up front.
factory manuals specify the use of aftermarket camber bolts as "crash" bolts. If you car gets in an accident and some suspension component is bent you can use crash bolts to get back to factory specs. The subaru manual specifically states that "parts should be replaced after an accident if they are not 100% straight" There is no chance in hell that SOA would change that or throw a TSB in there for that.
Our -1.5 is a lot better then the 0 that acuras, bmw and cooper Ss are allowed in DS.
-Tom
| jds | 09-03-2002 01:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B] The subaru manual specifically states that "parts should be replaced after an accident if they are not 100% straight" There is no chance in hell that SOA would change that or throw a TSB in there for that.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
You sound pretty confident, Tom. Has anybody asked SoA? I figure there's no harm in asking, right? I agree, if we ask and they say "no", then so be it.
[B]BUT[/B], wouldn't it be nice to be able to get to -3º and actually be able to use all (or at least a lot more) of the tread on our expensive Kumhos and Hoosiers without having to resort to super-stiff strut damping? After all, Toyota and Honda FSM's allow it (per Howard Duncan)
-joe
[B] The subaru manual specifically states that "parts should be replaced after an accident if they are not 100% straight" There is no chance in hell that SOA would change that or throw a TSB in there for that.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
You sound pretty confident, Tom. Has anybody asked SoA? I figure there's no harm in asking, right? I agree, if we ask and they say "no", then so be it.
[B]BUT[/B], wouldn't it be nice to be able to get to -3º and actually be able to use all (or at least a lot more) of the tread on our expensive Kumhos and Hoosiers without having to resort to super-stiff strut damping? After all, Toyota and Honda FSM's allow it (per Howard Duncan)
-joe
| Subdued | 09-03-2002 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jds [/i]
[B]
You sound pretty confident, Tom. Has anybody asked SoA? I figure there's no harm in asking, right? I agree, if we ask and they say "no", then so be it.
[B]BUT[/B], wouldn't it be nice to be able to get to -3º and actually be able to use all (or at least a lot more) of the tread on our expensive Kumhos and Hoosiers without having to resort to super-stiff strut damping? After all, Toyota and Honda FSM's allow it (per Howard Duncan)
-joe [/B][/QUOTE]I agree with Joe, there is no harm in asking. If someone has any kind of positive relationship with SOA it would be great if they stepped up and pitched this one.
[B]
You sound pretty confident, Tom. Has anybody asked SoA? I figure there's no harm in asking, right? I agree, if we ask and they say "no", then so be it.
[B]BUT[/B], wouldn't it be nice to be able to get to -3º and actually be able to use all (or at least a lot more) of the tread on our expensive Kumhos and Hoosiers without having to resort to super-stiff strut damping? After all, Toyota and Honda FSM's allow it (per Howard Duncan)
-joe [/B][/QUOTE]I agree with Joe, there is no harm in asking. If someone has any kind of positive relationship with SOA it would be great if they stepped up and pitched this one.
| trhoppe | 09-03-2002 02:59 PM |
Go for it! Make sure to post the reply back here.
| Draken | 09-03-2002 03:50 PM |
I would be willing to help the cause, as long as we mention the 2.5RS too. I could benefit from a bit more negative front camber.
does anyone know if SOA will have a presence at Nationals? Perhaps we could discuss it with someone there.
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
'99 Subie 2.5RS (G-Stock)
does anyone know if SOA will have a presence at Nationals? Perhaps we could discuss it with someone there.
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
'99 Subie 2.5RS (G-Stock)
| Opie | 09-03-2002 04:46 PM |
I have asked directly and have asked some of the Southeast-SOA higher-ups to see if they could get something in writing to help us out and the answer every time has been that they would not change the wording.
But that doesn't mean we should stop asking! :)
But that doesn't mean we should stop asking! :)
| jds | 09-04-2002 01:17 PM |
I was thinking that maybe the way to go is through the motorsports people, like those who put together the SCCA sponsorship deals or who give factory support to the racers. Does anybody have a contact they could suggest?
Subie gal?
Gary Sheehan?
Patrick Olsen? (or is it OlsOn?)
Bueller?
Subie gal?
Gary Sheehan?
Patrick Olsen? (or is it OlsOn?)
Bueller?
| gary p | 09-07-2002 01:15 PM |
My understanding is that if the bolts are in the manual, there doesn't have to be a TSB. Neon and VW drivers have been using "crash bolts" for years to gain more negative camber, even though the true intent of these parts is to help get the car back into aligment after a wreck has left the chassis a wee bit tweeked. But....those bolts have specific part numbers and are available through the manufacturer's part channels. I.E. you can use them on a neon, but they have to be the actual Mopar bolts as available through the dealership. If Suby noted a specific part and source, or even added crash bolts to their parts system, you'd be good to go.
| Subdued | 09-07-2002 10:58 PM |
Are there Crash Bolts currently available for 02 Imprezas through Subaru now?
| ChrisDP | 09-08-2002 02:12 PM |
I guess maybe the older HS Civics and GS CRXs might have struts that allow camber adjustment, but I know none of the double-wishbone cars have any sort of adjustable parts in them. I do think the ITR has something like half a degree of camber from the factory, but it's not remotely adjustable.
| jds | 09-09-2002 11:45 AM |
So then; to quote from my handy-dandy rulebook:
[QUOTE]
13.8 SUSPENSION
...
Both the front and the rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjusting arrangements or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances [I]This encompasses both alignment and ride height parameters, if such adjustments are provided by the stock components and specified by the factory as normal methods for adjustment.[/I] However, no suspension part may be modified for the purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically authorized by the factory shop manual for non-competition purposes.
...
If authorized by the manufacturer, the use of shims, special bolts, removal of material to enlarge mounting holes, and similar methods are allowed and the resulting alignment settings are permitted even if outside the normal specification or range of specifications recommended by the manufacturer. If enlarging mounting holes is specifically authorized but no material removal limits are specified, the material removal is restricted to the amount necessary to achieve the maximum factory alignment specification.
[/QUOTE]
What I read from this is that what we can do with camber bolts depends on exactly what is said in the factory service manual (FSM).
Does anybody have a copy of the shop manual that they can check out and maybe post a scan of the page or pages that talk about camber bolt use? If the FSM says "it's OK to use camber bolts", then we should be able to get a letter out to the SEB asking for a specific ruling on whether we are OK to use them.
Anybody want to scan a page or two for the cause? I'll do the letter-writing.
-Joe
[QUOTE]
13.8 SUSPENSION
...
Both the front and the rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjusting arrangements or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances [I]This encompasses both alignment and ride height parameters, if such adjustments are provided by the stock components and specified by the factory as normal methods for adjustment.[/I] However, no suspension part may be modified for the purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically authorized by the factory shop manual for non-competition purposes.
...
If authorized by the manufacturer, the use of shims, special bolts, removal of material to enlarge mounting holes, and similar methods are allowed and the resulting alignment settings are permitted even if outside the normal specification or range of specifications recommended by the manufacturer. If enlarging mounting holes is specifically authorized but no material removal limits are specified, the material removal is restricted to the amount necessary to achieve the maximum factory alignment specification.
[/QUOTE]
What I read from this is that what we can do with camber bolts depends on exactly what is said in the factory service manual (FSM).
Does anybody have a copy of the shop manual that they can check out and maybe post a scan of the page or pages that talk about camber bolt use? If the FSM says "it's OK to use camber bolts", then we should be able to get a letter out to the SEB asking for a specific ruling on whether we are OK to use them.
Anybody want to scan a page or two for the cause? I'll do the letter-writing.
-Joe
| adhowe70 | 09-09-2002 07:51 PM |
A letter to SEB would accomplish nothing. SEB will not authorize the use of particular parts for your car. Howard Duncan can offer interpretations of the rulebook based on his knowledge of the intent of the SAC, but his opinion is in no way binding (its just a damn good thing to have when you make a questionable mod) since the Protest Committee for each event makes the actual decisions.
The MY 2000 FSM (and I believe all others are the same) does not mention the use of "crash bolts" and so being, we are having this conversation. If the manual permitted the use of these bolts, everyone here would already have them on their cars. On the other hand, a TSB from SOA is as good as gold. Its just like having the text in the FSM, as long as you have the TSB with you in your FSM at events.
What needs to happen is as follows:
1. Subaru releases TSB allowing the use of "crash bolts" to correct camber to within factory tolerances.
2. I get copy of said TSB from Subaru.
3. I buy "crash bolts" to correct my crappy factory alignment.
4. I autocross with "crash bolts" and corrected alignment.
5. Somebody protests me for "crash bolts."
6. I whip out my copy of said Subaru TSB authorizing the use of "crash bolts."
7. Protest is disallowed.
8. By precedent, the "crash bolts" will likely be allowed in all other protests.
Or you can write a letter to the SAC (Stock Advisory Committee) and ask that they add a line to 13.8 stating, "The use of crash bolts is permitted on all Subaru models." :rolleyes:
I apologize if this sounds harsh, but I think it'll be a cold day in hell before we get SOA to approve crash bolts. I hope I'm wrong, but...
Andrew H.
The MY 2000 FSM (and I believe all others are the same) does not mention the use of "crash bolts" and so being, we are having this conversation. If the manual permitted the use of these bolts, everyone here would already have them on their cars. On the other hand, a TSB from SOA is as good as gold. Its just like having the text in the FSM, as long as you have the TSB with you in your FSM at events.
What needs to happen is as follows:
1. Subaru releases TSB allowing the use of "crash bolts" to correct camber to within factory tolerances.
2. I get copy of said TSB from Subaru.
3. I buy "crash bolts" to correct my crappy factory alignment.
4. I autocross with "crash bolts" and corrected alignment.
5. Somebody protests me for "crash bolts."
6. I whip out my copy of said Subaru TSB authorizing the use of "crash bolts."
7. Protest is disallowed.
8. By precedent, the "crash bolts" will likely be allowed in all other protests.
Or you can write a letter to the SAC (Stock Advisory Committee) and ask that they add a line to 13.8 stating, "The use of crash bolts is permitted on all Subaru models." :rolleyes:
I apologize if this sounds harsh, but I think it'll be a cold day in hell before we get SOA to approve crash bolts. I hope I'm wrong, but...
Andrew H.
| jds | 09-10-2002 12:13 PM |
None of which answers my original question, which I'll quote again here:
[QUOTE]Has anybody checked the factory manual to see if camber bolts are mentioned? If so, can you post the text from the manual here so we can check it out?[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm trying to find out -- what does the FSM say? The minutae of who approves what and all the SEB politics aren't the question, at least not at this point.
-Joe
[QUOTE]Has anybody checked the factory manual to see if camber bolts are mentioned? If so, can you post the text from the manual here so we can check it out?[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm trying to find out -- what does the FSM say? The minutae of who approves what and all the SEB politics aren't the question, at least not at this point.
-Joe
| adhowe70 | 09-10-2002 07:47 PM |
To rephrase my answer...
I have checked and in the MY 00 Impreza FSM, the use of "crash bolts" is not mentioned and thus their use is not legal in Stock class.
To paraphrase what I've read from others in this thread, the '98, '99, '00, '01 & '02 FSM's do not mention the use of "crash bolts." Read Tom Hoppe's first reply. While his first sentence is kind of vague, he goes on to say that the "subaru manual specifically states that 'parts should be replaced after an accident if they are not 100% straight'" In other words, the Impreza FSM does not allow the use of "crash bolts." Unfortunately, the Neon manual does. :(
Now to the point of whether or not Subaru has issued a TSB, or ammendment to the FSM, I havent' seen one and I doubt that one is in the works. Do I want one? Yes!
Andrew
I have checked and in the MY 00 Impreza FSM, the use of "crash bolts" is not mentioned and thus their use is not legal in Stock class.
To paraphrase what I've read from others in this thread, the '98, '99, '00, '01 & '02 FSM's do not mention the use of "crash bolts." Read Tom Hoppe's first reply. While his first sentence is kind of vague, he goes on to say that the "subaru manual specifically states that 'parts should be replaced after an accident if they are not 100% straight'" In other words, the Impreza FSM does not allow the use of "crash bolts." Unfortunately, the Neon manual does. :(
Now to the point of whether or not Subaru has issued a TSB, or ammendment to the FSM, I havent' seen one and I doubt that one is in the works. Do I want one? Yes!
Andrew
| buraddo | 04-08-2003 06:52 PM |
as posted by jds
"or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances"
slop in holes, excessive bolt length, etc...
"However, no suspension part may be modified for the purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically authorized by the factory shop manual for non-competition purposes."
Modified - to me that means cut, ground, welded, etc... not adjusted. I guess to me unless inflating tires to a higher pressure is a "modification" than camber bolts can be taken advantage of. I don't know that this argument would hold water in the event of a protest but it works for me. I know of 1G MR2s in CS that have 15°+ of castor dialed in. I don't know if that would be mentioned in their manual. Just my $.02
"or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances"
slop in holes, excessive bolt length, etc...
"However, no suspension part may be modified for the purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically authorized by the factory shop manual for non-competition purposes."
Modified - to me that means cut, ground, welded, etc... not adjusted. I guess to me unless inflating tires to a higher pressure is a "modification" than camber bolts can be taken advantage of. I don't know that this argument would hold water in the event of a protest but it works for me. I know of 1G MR2s in CS that have 15°+ of castor dialed in. I don't know if that would be mentioned in their manual. Just my $.02
| jmott | 04-09-2003 09:43 AM |
dude
the wrx already comes with frikkin crash bolts!!
thats why its adjustable at all.
I'm not sure you could make a bigger crash bolt and still have structural integrity?
the wrx already comes with frikkin crash bolts!!
thats why its adjustable at all.
I'm not sure you could make a bigger crash bolt and still have structural integrity?
| TyrannoSullyRex | 04-09-2003 10:54 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott [/i]
[B]dude
the wrx already comes with frikkin crash bolts!!
thats why its adjustable at all.
I'm not sure you could make a bigger crash bolt and still have structural integrity? [/B][/QUOTE]
Jack is jealous that we actually have eccentric bolts.
[B]dude
the wrx already comes with frikkin crash bolts!!
thats why its adjustable at all.
I'm not sure you could make a bigger crash bolt and still have structural integrity? [/B][/QUOTE]
Jack is jealous that we actually have eccentric bolts.
| jmott | 04-09-2003 10:56 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TyrannoSullyRex [/i]
[B]
Jack is jealous that we actually have eccentric bolts. [/B][/QUOTE]
yep =)
[B]
Jack is jealous that we actually have eccentric bolts. [/B][/QUOTE]
yep =)
| MNbiker | 04-09-2003 02:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jds [/i]
[B]So then; to quote from my handy-dandy rulebook:
What I read from this is that what we can do with camber bolts depends on exactly what is said in the factory service manual (FSM).
Does anybody have a copy of the shop manual that they can check out and maybe post a scan of the page or pages that talk about camber bolt use? If the FSM says "it's OK to use camber bolts", then we should be able to get a letter out to the SEB asking for a specific ruling on whether we are OK to use them.
Anybody want to scan a page or two for the cause? I'll do the letter-writing.
-Joe [/B][/QUOTE]
Two clarifications:
1. The Impreza comes stock with one (1) eccentric bolt on each side in the front. As stated earlier by Tom, adjusting these bolts to max negative camber will yield approx. -1.5 deg camber. This bolt is specifically referenced in the FSM. What is not referenced (and hence, not legal), is adding a second eccentric bolt to each side, which would provide additional adjustability.
2. The Impreza DOES NOT come with any means of adjusting the rear camber. The TSM specifically states rear camber is not adjustable. Hence, adding eccentric bolts to the rear is not legal.
-Steve
p.s. IMHO - getting SOA to authorize/reference eccentric bolts in the rear would be FAR more useful than getting them to authorize two bolts in the front. Currently, there's no factory-authorized means to make ANY camber adjustments to a stock Impreza, which seems kinda dumb.
[B]So then; to quote from my handy-dandy rulebook:
What I read from this is that what we can do with camber bolts depends on exactly what is said in the factory service manual (FSM).
Does anybody have a copy of the shop manual that they can check out and maybe post a scan of the page or pages that talk about camber bolt use? If the FSM says "it's OK to use camber bolts", then we should be able to get a letter out to the SEB asking for a specific ruling on whether we are OK to use them.
Anybody want to scan a page or two for the cause? I'll do the letter-writing.
-Joe [/B][/QUOTE]
Two clarifications:
1. The Impreza comes stock with one (1) eccentric bolt on each side in the front. As stated earlier by Tom, adjusting these bolts to max negative camber will yield approx. -1.5 deg camber. This bolt is specifically referenced in the FSM. What is not referenced (and hence, not legal), is adding a second eccentric bolt to each side, which would provide additional adjustability.
2. The Impreza DOES NOT come with any means of adjusting the rear camber. The TSM specifically states rear camber is not adjustable. Hence, adding eccentric bolts to the rear is not legal.
-Steve
p.s. IMHO - getting SOA to authorize/reference eccentric bolts in the rear would be FAR more useful than getting them to authorize two bolts in the front. Currently, there's no factory-authorized means to make ANY camber adjustments to a stock Impreza, which seems kinda dumb.
| WRXster | 04-09-2003 06:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]
As stated earlier by Tom, adjusting these bolts to max negative camber will yield approx. -1.5 deg camber. [/B][/QUOTE]
Are there actually ANY stock Subarus autocrossing? Where I live, they move out of Stock as soon as they let the RE92s go :)
Except for me...
And unfortunately, manufacturing tolerances being what they are, some WRXs cannot get even remotely close to Tom's -1.5 negative. Mine for example runs about -.7 left/-.3 right. Maybe it got dropped on the boat, I don't know. Butt it is an annoying fact.
[B]
As stated earlier by Tom, adjusting these bolts to max negative camber will yield approx. -1.5 deg camber. [/B][/QUOTE]
Are there actually ANY stock Subarus autocrossing? Where I live, they move out of Stock as soon as they let the RE92s go :)
Except for me...
And unfortunately, manufacturing tolerances being what they are, some WRXs cannot get even remotely close to Tom's -1.5 negative. Mine for example runs about -.7 left/-.3 right. Maybe it got dropped on the boat, I don't know. Butt it is an annoying fact.
| MNbiker | 04-09-2003 06:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXster [/i]
[B]
Are there actually ANY stock Subarus autocrossing? Where I live, they move out of Stock as soon as they let the RE92s go :)
Except for me...
And unfortunately, manufacturing tolerances being what they are, some WRXs cannot get even remotely close to Tom's -1.5 negative. Mine for example runs about -.7 left/-.3 right. Maybe it got dropped on the boat, I don't know. Butt it is an annoying fact. [/B][/QUOTE]
There are a fair number of WRX's racing in DS - I saw a couple at a local autox last weekend.
FWIW - I couldn't get -1.5 degrees out of my car when it was stock either. (I think Tom must have hammered a little extra hard in a few places!):lol: :lol:
-Steve
[B]
Are there actually ANY stock Subarus autocrossing? Where I live, they move out of Stock as soon as they let the RE92s go :)
Except for me...
And unfortunately, manufacturing tolerances being what they are, some WRXs cannot get even remotely close to Tom's -1.5 negative. Mine for example runs about -.7 left/-.3 right. Maybe it got dropped on the boat, I don't know. Butt it is an annoying fact. [/B][/QUOTE]
There are a fair number of WRX's racing in DS - I saw a couple at a local autox last weekend.
FWIW - I couldn't get -1.5 degrees out of my car when it was stock either. (I think Tom must have hammered a little extra hard in a few places!):lol: :lol:
-Steve
| adhowe70 | 04-09-2003 09:57 PM |
Come down to Oregon...
Chris Hartman and I run in G Stock with our 2.5RS's. We're both pretty speedy (but Chris has definitely got me beat!) with our cars. Chris finished 8th at Nationals in Topeka last year. He's my hero. :D
Andy
Chris Hartman and I run in G Stock with our 2.5RS's. We're both pretty speedy (but Chris has definitely got me beat!) with our cars. Chris finished 8th at Nationals in Topeka last year. He's my hero. :D
Andy
| ConeMasher | 04-09-2003 10:31 PM |
02 WRX Sedan: D-Stock
-1.4 both sides, could have -1.5 on the left, but I preferred equal negative.
-- Gary
-1.4 both sides, could have -1.5 on the left, but I preferred equal negative.
-- Gary
| jmott | 04-10-2003 12:06 AM |
tons
and for the most part the DSTOCK wrxs are faster than the modded ones.
race tires do wonders
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXster [/i]
[B]
Are there actually ANY stock Subarus autocrossing? Where I live, they move out of Stock as soon as they let the RE92s go :)
Except for me...
And unfortunately, manufacturing tolerances being what they are, some WRXs cannot get even remotely close to Tom's -1.5 negative. Mine for example runs about -.7 left/-.3 right. Maybe it got dropped on the boat, I don't know. Butt it is an annoying fact. [/B][/QUOTE]
and for the most part the DSTOCK wrxs are faster than the modded ones.
race tires do wonders
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXster [/i]
[B]
Are there actually ANY stock Subarus autocrossing? Where I live, they move out of Stock as soon as they let the RE92s go :)
Except for me...
And unfortunately, manufacturing tolerances being what they are, some WRXs cannot get even remotely close to Tom's -1.5 negative. Mine for example runs about -.7 left/-.3 right. Maybe it got dropped on the boat, I don't know. Butt it is an annoying fact. [/B][/QUOTE]
| trhoppe | 04-10-2003 11:09 AM |
I used one of those big ratchet straps that you use to tie your car down to the trailer. Hooked it around the bottom of the strut and the control arm, then gave her quite a few ratchets with all the bolts loose. A few creaks + groans later (I dont really think I bent anything, ok maybe a *little*) I had -1.5 on both sides.
:D
Now if you went the extra mile in DS and got the degassed Konis, you could probably get about -2 degrees and the front a little lower. That would cost lotsa $$ though, so it only applies to nationals :)
-Tom
:D
Now if you went the extra mile in DS and got the degassed Konis, you could probably get about -2 degrees and the front a little lower. That would cost lotsa $$ though, so it only applies to nationals :)
-Tom
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