| faststeak | 04-01-2006 12:30 PM |
STi Wheels studs
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I'm running into problems with the studs on my '05 STi. I'm running in AS, so I swap tires every event. I noticed some wear last year, and a couple lugs on the right front didn't like going on and off cleanly by the end of the year. 15 AX's and several all day schools w 40+ runs a day = 40 or so tire swaps last year. I've had 3 cross-threaded lugs in just 2 events this year. I want to swap out the studs for something a little more durable. Any suggestions? I saw that ARP has a WRX kit, but I'm not sure if the size is right. It didn't specify regular WRX or STi.
FYI, I'm not being an idiot and just jamming them on, there are actual indications that the studs are starting to wear badly. Compared to a new stud, it looks like the peaks of the threads are getting worn off, as if the lug threads were trying to move over them.
Thanks,
Steve
FYI, I'm not being an idiot and just jamming them on, there are actual indications that the studs are starting to wear badly. Compared to a new stud, it looks like the peaks of the threads are getting worn off, as if the lug threads were trying to move over them.
Thanks,
Steve
| WRX8XB | 04-01-2006 12:42 PM |
wrx and sti use the same wheel studs.
i don't think you can use aftermarket studs in AS
i don't think you can use aftermarket studs in AS
| faststeak | 04-01-2006 12:49 PM |
Yep, you can, checked that first. Section 13.4 in the same paragraph allowing spacers.
"Wheel spacers are permitted, provided the resultant combination
complies with the offset requirements of this section. Wheel studs,
lug nuts, and/or bolt length may be changed."
"Wheel spacers are permitted, provided the resultant combination
complies with the offset requirements of this section. Wheel studs,
lug nuts, and/or bolt length may be changed."
| WRX8XB | 04-01-2006 12:52 PM |
ooh! that's good news
i have the ARP wheel studs coming for my car here shortly.
i have the ARP wheel studs coming for my car here shortly.
| DrBiggly | 04-01-2006 02:22 PM |
I know with the RS's and WRXs it wasn't the studs that were the issue, but rather the stock lugnuts that didn't put up with coming and going so often. I've done naught to mine other than some anti-seize now and again and as far as I know Tom never had any issue before me either. Just don't use the stock lugnuts. :)
-Biggly
-Biggly
| WRX8XB | 04-01-2006 02:50 PM |
there have been a couple local guys breaking the wheel studs.
i do think the lugs were part of the culprit. aluminum and no anti-seize.
but i figured, stronger/longer wheel studs cant be a bad thing
i do think the lugs were part of the culprit. aluminum and no anti-seize.
but i figured, stronger/longer wheel studs cant be a bad thing
| rankink | 04-01-2006 03:25 PM |
What kind of lugs are you using?
| Web Foot STi | 04-01-2006 07:38 PM |
I've had the same problem with the wheel studs wearing out. At first I thought it was the aluminum lug nuts I was foolishly using. Then I cleaned up the threads and switched over to some aftermarket forged ones. They continued to get worse. Fortunately the dealer changed out the worst of them. I'll have to check out the ARP studs.
Be careful about using anti seize on wheel studs. The torque specs are for dry threads and on an aluminum wheel without steel seats you can suck the nut into the wheel.
Be careful about using anti seize on wheel studs. The torque specs are for dry threads and on an aluminum wheel without steel seats you can suck the nut into the wheel.
| leecea | 04-01-2006 10:41 PM |
I've had to replace 2 front studs so far - probably about 30 autoxs - and some of the others are looking worn. I do use the stock lug nuts.
How can you tell that it's the stock lugs are damaging the studs?
What better lugs are out there?
How can you tell that it's the stock lugs are damaging the studs?
What better lugs are out there?
| crystalhelix | 04-01-2006 11:15 PM |
Light amount of anti-sieze and I haven't had an issue since!
| WRX8XB | 04-02-2006 09:34 AM |
[QUOTE=Web Foot STi]
Be careful about using anti seize on wheel studs. The torque specs are for dry threads and on an aluminum wheel without steel seats you can suck the nut into the wheel.[/QUOTE]
can you explain this a little more?
TIA
Be careful about using anti seize on wheel studs. The torque specs are for dry threads and on an aluminum wheel without steel seats you can suck the nut into the wheel.[/QUOTE]
can you explain this a little more?
TIA
| leecea | 04-02-2006 11:43 AM |
The torque spec relies on a known amount of friction between threads for a given clamping pressure. By adding lubricant to the threads and reducing the friction, the same amount of turning torque will result in a higher clamping pressure.
The poster is suggesting that this higher pressure could actually damage or deform the soft alloy of the wheel. I have no idea if that's true - people often suggest backing off the torque spec by a few pounds if you use lubricant, but I don't know how much or how accurate the revised numbers are.
I hope that helps.
The poster is suggesting that this higher pressure could actually damage or deform the soft alloy of the wheel. I have no idea if that's true - people often suggest backing off the torque spec by a few pounds if you use lubricant, but I don't know how much or how accurate the revised numbers are.
I hope that helps.
| WRX8XB | 04-02-2006 11:54 AM |
indeed it does.
what are are you guys torquing down the lugs to when using anti-sieze?
what are are you guys torquing down the lugs to when using anti-sieze?
| scby rex | 04-02-2006 11:55 AM |
I use arp long studs with duramin open ended nuts. I use wd-40 every 3-4 times I remove them but I wipe them down before I put the nut on. This seems to work good. I got the studs for 108 from options.
| Web Foot STi | 04-02-2006 04:40 PM |
In a past life I worked for a company that makes aluminum wheel hubs for big trucks. Our old design was tested years ago with ball seat nuts, clipped head studs, and dry threads. After many years we began to get back warrantee parts with the studs literally sucked int the hub effectively destroying it. The threads were coated with a very effective anti-size that had a lot of molly-sulfide. Sure enough during testing at the industry recommend torque with the lube we could suck the stud through our hub. This was an unacceptable failure mode to us. We then embarked on a redesign of our studs and the flange area of our hubs. When we were done we had a system where the worst that would happen was a grade 22 mm wheel stud would twist in two. This is not a bad failure mode. It now took twice as much as the specified dry torque with lube to cause the mechanic to cures and have to pop our the damaged stud and put in a new one vs changing out the whole hub assembly. Much cheaper! (Plus we stopped getting the complaints...)
I'm not going to recommend anyone not tighten there lug nuts under the 65 Ft-Lb spec. Just to be careful if you are lubricating the threads. Do try and keep, as much as posable, any lube off of the tapered portion of the nut / wheel seat. That is a major point of friction in the system.
Under torquing is just as bad. The torque is an indicator of how much stretch is in the stud. Think of it as a spring. Not enough preload and you wind up with relative motion between the wheel and hub. This puts a tremendous fatigue load on all of the wheel studs. Every rotation of the wheel is a stress reversal and yes I have seen parts returned with multiple broken studs and fretting damage on the hub flange indicating the relative movement.
Now you know why I just went with the short version, but you asked. Bolted joint design isn't simple.
Just a dumb engineer...
I'm not going to recommend anyone not tighten there lug nuts under the 65 Ft-Lb spec. Just to be careful if you are lubricating the threads. Do try and keep, as much as posable, any lube off of the tapered portion of the nut / wheel seat. That is a major point of friction in the system.
Under torquing is just as bad. The torque is an indicator of how much stretch is in the stud. Think of it as a spring. Not enough preload and you wind up with relative motion between the wheel and hub. This puts a tremendous fatigue load on all of the wheel studs. Every rotation of the wheel is a stress reversal and yes I have seen parts returned with multiple broken studs and fretting damage on the hub flange indicating the relative movement.
Now you know why I just went with the short version, but you asked. Bolted joint design isn't simple.
Just a dumb engineer...
| WJM | 04-02-2006 05:14 PM |
In the years I've autox'ed and swapped tires...I've only broken 1 stud on my RX (all original studs and nuts except for one...that was replaced with an equally old stud and nut ;) ) and that was not even at an event. Its an 87 RX btw.
The stock chrome top 'acorn' nuts are junk. Get some basic 'ghetto' lugs to replace them, use some known good water resistant grease or anti-seize and apply to the nuts and studs. I dont use a TQ wrench to TQ them...but they usually end up at 90~100 ft-lbs.
Otherwise...get some Nismo 50MM studs and some 5zigen or *other brand here* forged AL nuts....and use said grease/Anti-seize.
????????
Profit!!!!
Have a nice day.
The stock chrome top 'acorn' nuts are junk. Get some basic 'ghetto' lugs to replace them, use some known good water resistant grease or anti-seize and apply to the nuts and studs. I dont use a TQ wrench to TQ them...but they usually end up at 90~100 ft-lbs.
Otherwise...get some Nismo 50MM studs and some 5zigen or *other brand here* forged AL nuts....and use said grease/Anti-seize.
????????
Profit!!!!
Have a nice day.
| 02Toyowrx | 04-02-2006 07:42 PM |
[QUOTE=WRX8XB]ooh! that's good news
i have the ARP wheel studs coming for my car here shortly.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking about getting these. Do you know how long they are?
i have the ARP wheel studs coming for my car here shortly.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking about getting these. Do you know how long they are?
| azn2nr | 04-02-2006 08:29 PM |
where would one find these arp wheel studs??
| Corn-Picker | 04-02-2006 09:35 PM |
[QUOTE=Web Foot STi]...[/QUOTE]
Any truth to the rumor that you shouldn't lubricate the surface where the rotor/drum presses against the inner wheel face? I know people that do this, and I've heard it can cause your lugnuts to shear under stresses such as hard braking and big potholes.
Any truth to the rumor that you shouldn't lubricate the surface where the rotor/drum presses against the inner wheel face? I know people that do this, and I've heard it can cause your lugnuts to shear under stresses such as hard braking and big potholes.
| 02Toyowrx | 04-02-2006 09:52 PM |
AZN2NR an easy search came up with the following.
OEM stud length is 1.65" or 42mm
Nismo 50mm and 60mm wheel studs.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=795943&highlight=nismo+wheel+studs[/url]
ARP wheel studs for WRX 67.31mm or 76.2mm.
[url]http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.Images/2006ARPSupplement.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.rocketindustries.com.au/search.php?brand=ARP[/url]
ARP stud group buy awhile back
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=735959&highlight=nismo+wheel+studs[/url]
OEM stud length is 1.65" or 42mm
Nismo 50mm and 60mm wheel studs.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=795943&highlight=nismo+wheel+studs[/url]
ARP wheel studs for WRX 67.31mm or 76.2mm.
[url]http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.Images/2006ARPSupplement.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.rocketindustries.com.au/search.php?brand=ARP[/url]
ARP stud group buy awhile back
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=735959&highlight=nismo+wheel+studs[/url]
| LyveWRX | 04-03-2006 09:36 AM |
WebFoot- Thanks.
8-10mths after new I had trouble with lugs backing off after torquing and re-torquing at 50mi. I used the cheap permatex Al-based antisieze with the reccommendation of an old Rally Guy. Since then I have torqued to 60ft-lbs and had no troubles. I compulsively check and re-check the lugs and rarely do I see more than 1/16th of a turn of the tq-wrench before it clicks over.
More on wheel studs:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885825[/url]
(Also see American Fastener Journal May/June 2005 for a great article on the topic of wheel/hub/lug/stud science.)- e-mail me for more info.
8-10mths after new I had trouble with lugs backing off after torquing and re-torquing at 50mi. I used the cheap permatex Al-based antisieze with the reccommendation of an old Rally Guy. Since then I have torqued to 60ft-lbs and had no troubles. I compulsively check and re-check the lugs and rarely do I see more than 1/16th of a turn of the tq-wrench before it clicks over.
More on wheel studs:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885825[/url]
(Also see American Fastener Journal May/June 2005 for a great article on the topic of wheel/hub/lug/stud science.)- e-mail me for more info.
| WRX8XB | 04-03-2006 09:40 AM |
that's good to hear.
Innovative Auto is where we (a group of us down in S.FL) bought our ARP wheel studs.
Innovative Auto is where we (a group of us down in S.FL) bought our ARP wheel studs.
| jamesohoh7 | 04-03-2006 09:42 AM |
I put a dab of waterproof grease on the studs on my STi (and most every car I've ever owned for past 20 years) and the wear on them looks minimal after many dozen tire changes. I'm not saying 'this is the thing to do', b/c no doubt the specs say 'dry torque'... just reporting what I've done.. never had a problem, YMMV.
I think that even just a weekly check of the torque on the daily-driver wheels is what's required to ensure things are good. The afternoon of autox'ing isn't where I'm worrying about my lugs coming off... it's my daily-driver wheels I'm on for 29 days between autoxes.
I think that even just a weekly check of the torque on the daily-driver wheels is what's required to ensure things are good. The afternoon of autox'ing isn't where I'm worrying about my lugs coming off... it's my daily-driver wheels I'm on for 29 days between autoxes.
| trhoppe | 04-03-2006 10:14 AM |
Just a note, the 05 STi and the WRXs do *not* use the same wheel studs. I thought the same thing until I broke one and replaced it with a WRX one. The WRX one is about 1/4" shorter. While its not that big of a deal, you might as well replace it with the same part you took off unless you are in a bind like I was.
As far as stripping studs. I stripped a TON while using the stock OEM lugnuts. I switched off to the cheapo Discount Tire lugnuts and had no problems for 3 or so seasons. I also did use a dab of antisieze to clean up the threads at the beginning of the year or so. Never had any issues.
-Tom
As far as stripping studs. I stripped a TON while using the stock OEM lugnuts. I switched off to the cheapo Discount Tire lugnuts and had no problems for 3 or so seasons. I also did use a dab of antisieze to clean up the threads at the beginning of the year or so. Never had any issues.
-Tom
| WRX8XB | 04-03-2006 10:21 AM |
what year WRX was the wheel stud for?
| trhoppe | 04-03-2006 12:00 PM |
2005
-Tom
-Tom
| faststeak | 04-03-2006 06:12 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Just a note, the 05 STi and the WRXs do *not* use the same wheel studs. I thought the same thing until I broke one and replaced it with a WRX one. The WRX one is about 1/4" shorter. While its not that big of a deal, you might as well replace it with the same part you took off unless you are in a bind like I was.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Is the only difference length?
If so, the ARP studs should work fine. They are at least 1/4" longer than the stock studs I think.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Is the only difference length?
If so, the ARP studs should work fine. They are at least 1/4" longer than the stock studs I think.
| WRX8XB | 04-03-2006 06:14 PM |
they have 1" more usable threads.
so even in an sti that's .75" more useable threads
so even in an sti that's .75" more useable threads
| Web Foot STi | 04-03-2006 10:53 PM |
[QUOTE=Corn-Picker]Any truth to the rumor that you shouldn't lubricate the surface where the rotor/drum presses against the inner wheel face? I know people that do this, and I've heard it can cause your lugnuts to shear under stresses such as hard braking and big potholes.[/QUOTE]
Shearing the wheel studs like that is a new one on me, but the studs are designed to be clamps and not locating devices, or anti rotation devices. Wheels and hubs that are true hubcentric do not rely on ball seat to center the wheel to the hub. Subaru uses a b'stardized design with both ball seat and hubcentric piloting. We would be better off and get more consistent torque readings if we had a captive Teflon coated flat flange washer and nut. (Some trucks use it.)
A true hubcentric pilot does not carry any of the vertical load, nor does the studs stop the wheel from turning on the hub. (Perfect system. In the real world there is some sharing.) It is the friction between the clamped parts that keep the bad things from happening.
Thank you all for the great hard searched info on the proper stud sizes and I hope to be putting it to good use. The devil is in the details.
Shearing the wheel studs like that is a new one on me, but the studs are designed to be clamps and not locating devices, or anti rotation devices. Wheels and hubs that are true hubcentric do not rely on ball seat to center the wheel to the hub. Subaru uses a b'stardized design with both ball seat and hubcentric piloting. We would be better off and get more consistent torque readings if we had a captive Teflon coated flat flange washer and nut. (Some trucks use it.)
A true hubcentric pilot does not carry any of the vertical load, nor does the studs stop the wheel from turning on the hub. (Perfect system. In the real world there is some sharing.) It is the friction between the clamped parts that keep the bad things from happening.
Thank you all for the great hard searched info on the proper stud sizes and I hope to be putting it to good use. The devil is in the details.
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