| trhoppe | 01-20-2004 11:59 AM |
STX/S guys, what rear strut mounts are you using?
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I'm trying to figure out what to do for rear strut mounts. For last year I used a set of STI Group N hardened ones. After going up 2K on my rear springs, I realized I may have hit the threshhold of these mounts :lol:
I already installed the Whiteline adjustable arms, so I'm limited to a non-adjustable rear top mount. Who makes them, what are you guys using?
-Tom
I already installed the Whiteline adjustable arms, so I'm limited to a non-adjustable rear top mount. Who makes them, what are you guys using?
-Tom
| TheWRX | 01-20-2004 01:09 PM |
I'm using the mounts that came standard with my coilovers (Tein RA). I can't think of any aftermarket mounts (except for the STi ones you used) that would be non-adjustable. Maybe you could try the Tein RA tops?
Would it be legal to buy adjustable tops and make them non-adjustable? A little welding could take care of that...
Would it be legal to buy adjustable tops and make them non-adjustable? A little welding could take care of that...
| KC | 01-20-2004 01:37 PM |
Tom, I have the Tein top-hats that came with the RAs.
| Corey | 01-20-2004 02:24 PM |
3 in a row...
I use the Tein top-mounts that came with the RA's.
Corey #89 STS
I use the Tein top-mounts that came with the RA's.
Corey #89 STS
| KC | 01-20-2004 02:30 PM |
Tom... you see a trend developing here? You need Tein RAs. :D
--kC
No.. wait....
--kC
No.. wait....
| stxwrxracer | 01-20-2004 02:35 PM |
What kind of spring rates are you talking here that would overload your Group N mounts?
| trhoppe | 01-20-2004 02:47 PM |
KC - I've got better then RAs, I've got HAs that are fully rebuilt and revalved for my springrates ;)
Mike - I ran 8K (450lb) springs all last year. I just installed 10K (550lb) springs yesterday.
I'm going to double check it all tonight, but I was getting some rough noises out of the rear of the car last night and it "seemed" like the tophats were moving as I was jumping on the door sill.
I don't know what rates the Group N top mounts are good for, but I would have to guess 550lbs is overloading them :)
Last but not least. Since I'm using 550lb springs, would having the rubber, even though its hardened rubber, mounts be hurting me?
-Tom
(hopefully I'm wrong, it was my imagination, and I can keep these)
Mike - I ran 8K (450lb) springs all last year. I just installed 10K (550lb) springs yesterday.
I'm going to double check it all tonight, but I was getting some rough noises out of the rear of the car last night and it "seemed" like the tophats were moving as I was jumping on the door sill.
I don't know what rates the Group N top mounts are good for, but I would have to guess 550lbs is overloading them :)
Last but not least. Since I'm using 550lb springs, would having the rubber, even though its hardened rubber, mounts be hurting me?
-Tom
(hopefully I'm wrong, it was my imagination, and I can keep these)
| stxwrxracer | 01-20-2004 03:13 PM |
Hmm, the 10's don't seem like too much for Group N mounts to me...who knows. Were the springs staying put in the spring seat when you put everything together?
~Mike
~Mike
| trhoppe | 01-20-2004 03:23 PM |
Hmm, I guess thats what youre running then right? ;)
These are a year old, have 30K miles on them, all with 8K springs. I hope they are ok and the beer was affecting my vision last night.
The springs seemed to be ok and in their seat. I turned the collar up a bunch and made sure everything was together and bound up before I put them in.
-Tom
These are a year old, have 30K miles on them, all with 8K springs. I hope they are ok and the beer was affecting my vision last night.
The springs seemed to be ok and in their seat. I turned the collar up a bunch and made sure everything was together and bound up before I put them in.
-Tom
| stxwrxracer | 01-20-2004 04:52 PM |
Hmm, sounds right to me. Actually you don't want to know what I'm running...lol...for real. They're being changed this week...but JIC's can handle up to a 24kg spring...didya know that?:huh: Hear anything more on the Hankooks, btw?
~Mike
~Mike
| trhoppe | 01-20-2004 04:58 PM |
With their current valving? I don't see how that is possible.
Noope. Hankook seems hush hush on them. I just got a set of the azenis for now.
-Tom
Noope. Hankook seems hush hush on them. I just got a set of the azenis for now.
-Tom
| stxwrxracer | 01-20-2004 05:05 PM |
Tell me about it...talked to a few people about them, including JIC, and they all said they can handle it...not that I would want that, especially on the street. Not sure of the wear life either at that spring rate.
Mike
Mike
| trhoppe | 01-20-2004 07:12 PM |
Get the dyno charts from them and show them to CRXLee on Honda-tech. There is seriously no way for a valving to be ok for 8-24K springs. No way in hell. These Teins come "stock" with 7K and 6K, and I went quite a bit up on the rebound to control 10Ks in the rear.
I could stick 24K springs on the stock shocks as well, but you wouldn't want to :)
As far as my noises in the rear of the car as well as the top mount thing. Let me just say this....
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc pics/tehsmart.jpg[/IMG]
Everything is well now. Car is :eek: fast
I just need to get the car aligned :D After breaking out the $35 camber gauge, front -4L -2R, rear -3L -2.5R :lol:
-Tom
I could stick 24K springs on the stock shocks as well, but you wouldn't want to :)
As far as my noises in the rear of the car as well as the top mount thing. Let me just say this....
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc pics/tehsmart.jpg[/IMG]
Everything is well now. Car is :eek: fast
I just need to get the car aligned :D After breaking out the $35 camber gauge, front -4L -2R, rear -3L -2.5R :lol:
-Tom
| stxwrxracer | 01-20-2004 07:41 PM |
That's the way I thought about it myself. Well, I'm nowhere close to there anyways, so its a moot point for me. Glad everything worked out well. Looking forward to Atlanta...
~Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] Get the dyno charts from them and show them to CRXLee on Honda-tech. There is seriously no way for a valving to be ok for 8-24K springs. No way in hell. These Teins come "stock" with 7K and 6K, and I went quite a bit up on the rebound to control 10Ks in the rear.
I could stick 24K springs on the stock shocks as well, but you wouldn't want to :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
~Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] Get the dyno charts from them and show them to CRXLee on Honda-tech. There is seriously no way for a valving to be ok for 8-24K springs. No way in hell. These Teins come "stock" with 7K and 6K, and I went quite a bit up on the rebound to control 10Ks in the rear.
I could stick 24K springs on the stock shocks as well, but you wouldn't want to :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
| TheWRX | 01-20-2004 10:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B][IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc pics/tehsmart.jpg[/IMG][/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
About revalving shocks when changing springs: If I understand the specs from Tein correctly, they recommend to get them revalved if you make a change of more than +/-2K in spring rates. I also asked Chris Shenefield about it, and he strongly recommended to get them revalved when going from 6K to 9K.
[B][IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc pics/tehsmart.jpg[/IMG][/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
About revalving shocks when changing springs: If I understand the specs from Tein correctly, they recommend to get them revalved if you make a change of more than +/-2K in spring rates. I also asked Chris Shenefield about it, and he strongly recommended to get them revalved when going from 6K to 9K.
| MNbiker | 01-21-2004 03:48 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B]Tell me about it...talked to a few people about them, including JIC, and they all said they can handle it...not that I would want that, especially on the street. Not sure of the wear life either at that spring rate.
Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Mike,
The folks at JIC USA are idiots.... :rolleyes:
I got the same answer from them in a couple almost unreadable emails. I'm running 10k rear springs with my JIC's this year - we'll see how they last....
Tom,
I have a set of JIC non-adjustable rear strut mounts I'm not using, as I installed Cusco adjustable rear camber plates. Pretty much identical to the Tein plates... They're yours cheap, if you want 'em.
-Steve
[B]Tell me about it...talked to a few people about them, including JIC, and they all said they can handle it...not that I would want that, especially on the street. Not sure of the wear life either at that spring rate.
Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Mike,
The folks at JIC USA are idiots.... :rolleyes:
I got the same answer from them in a couple almost unreadable emails. I'm running 10k rear springs with my JIC's this year - we'll see how they last....
Tom,
I have a set of JIC non-adjustable rear strut mounts I'm not using, as I installed Cusco adjustable rear camber plates. Pretty much identical to the Tein plates... They're yours cheap, if you want 'em.
-Steve
| stxwrxracer | 01-21-2004 09:05 AM |
Lmao! I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't talked to more people than them. Everything I've ever learned from Konis is that if you go any higher than about 450 on a Koni, they should be revalved. Honestly, I think the JICs can "handle" a 24k spring, but only when the surface literally is as smooth as glass. Any kind of bump, it would need to be revalved. Just my thoughts, though. It would definitely not be for street driving...anyways, I'm glad springs are cheap.
~Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Mike,
The folks at JIC USA are idiots.... :rolleyes:
I got the same answer from them in a couple almost unreadable emails. I'm running 10k rear springs with my JIC's this year - we'll see how they last....
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
~Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Mike,
The folks at JIC USA are idiots.... :rolleyes:
I got the same answer from them in a couple almost unreadable emails. I'm running 10k rear springs with my JIC's this year - we'll see how they last....
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
| Corey | 01-21-2004 09:25 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B]Hmm, the 10's don't seem like too much for Group N mounts to me...who knows.
~Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, I would think that the strut comp/rebound would do more to kill a rubber strut top then the spring rate would. Of course like Tom said, stiffer springs (usually) = stiffer struts... Unless you're runnin' JIC's:lol:
Corey #89 STS
[B]Hmm, the 10's don't seem like too much for Group N mounts to me...who knows.
~Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, I would think that the strut comp/rebound would do more to kill a rubber strut top then the spring rate would. Of course like Tom said, stiffer springs (usually) = stiffer struts... Unless you're runnin' JIC's:lol:
Corey #89 STS
| trhoppe | 01-21-2004 10:38 AM |
Sooo if it was up to you guys, with 10K springs would you
1) Run the 1 year old Group N mounts
2) Run the pillowball solid mounts
-Tom
1) Run the 1 year old Group N mounts
2) Run the pillowball solid mounts
-Tom
| stxwrxracer | 01-21-2004 02:47 PM |
Why did you go with the 10kg in the rear? Just brainstorming here...I guess you're running something in the neighborhood of a 6-8kg spring in the front. How about swaybar? Are you still with the 25mm front, and something huge in the rear? I'm still contemplating my setup as well, that's why...together, we can take them all down, Tom!:devil: Sorry, Keith. So, what I'm getting at is this...what would the pros/cons to going with a high spring rate (like 10f/14r) with regular size swaybars (19-20f/22-24r) vs. going with a lower spring rate like a 6f/8r with huge swaybars (25f/28r)? About the mounts, sounds pretty equal to me.
~Mike
~Mike
| trhoppe | 01-21-2004 03:27 PM |
[QUOTE]Why did you go with the 10kg in the rear? [/QUOTE]
Cause its fastAr :lol:
I don't know if we should share our secrets with Mike. I think he is too fast as it is :p
[QUOTE]what would the pros/cons to going with a high spring rate (like 10f/14r) with regular size swaybars (19-20f/22-24r) vs. going with a lower spring rate like a 6f/8r with huge swaybars (25f/28r)?[/QUOTE]
We've been trying to figure this out for a little while now. I started with the latter, and now I'm trying the former (but not as high rates). On smoother surfaces, the higher rates would be better. When its bumpy though I think the big bars + less spring would work. BUT when its bumpy, the big bars take away from the independancy of the suspension.
Since Keith beat me with the 8and10 rates with me on the 7and8, they must have been the difference, so thats why I'm changing :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)
-Tom
Cause its fastAr :lol:
I don't know if we should share our secrets with Mike. I think he is too fast as it is :p
[QUOTE]what would the pros/cons to going with a high spring rate (like 10f/14r) with regular size swaybars (19-20f/22-24r) vs. going with a lower spring rate like a 6f/8r with huge swaybars (25f/28r)?[/QUOTE]
We've been trying to figure this out for a little while now. I started with the latter, and now I'm trying the former (but not as high rates). On smoother surfaces, the higher rates would be better. When its bumpy though I think the big bars + less spring would work. BUT when its bumpy, the big bars take away from the independancy of the suspension.
Since Keith beat me with the 8and10 rates with me on the 7and8, they must have been the difference, so thats why I'm changing :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)
-Tom
| stxwrxracer | 01-21-2004 03:33 PM |
So me with my 20and24 setup should woop you guys right?..lol! Just kidding on that one. But you're welcome to try it if you want...;) Don't get me wrong..my primise for asking wasn't to figure out your setup...its just something that's been in the back of my mind for a while....about what would be the advantages of one setup vs. the other. Guess I need to pull the Zen and the Art of Suspension out and read it again...
~Mike
~Mike
| BriDrive | 01-21-2004 03:39 PM |
The weak link in these SUPER stiff numbers you're throwing out Mike, will be the Azenis....
I think the 10f/14r with regular rate sways is the more controllable approach with STX tires........
I think the 10f/14r with regular rate sways is the more controllable approach with STX tires........
| trhoppe | 01-21-2004 03:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer[/i]
[B] Don't get me wrong..my primise for asking wasn't to figure out your setup...
~Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
uhuh.....yea......we believe you ;)
I don't think any of our setups are secret at all.
I guess for me what it boiled down to, is that I still drive my car to events, so I have to have a "reasonable" springrate in order to be able to drive on the street. The 8 and 10k setup is right on the edge of that IMHO. I wouldn't want any more, the car is stiffer then hell already. Since my sways are adjustable, I'm going to try going with the full soft and see how the car feels. Then go full stiff and see....
-Tom
[B] Don't get me wrong..my primise for asking wasn't to figure out your setup...
~Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
uhuh.....yea......we believe you ;)
I don't think any of our setups are secret at all.
I guess for me what it boiled down to, is that I still drive my car to events, so I have to have a "reasonable" springrate in order to be able to drive on the street. The 8 and 10k setup is right on the edge of that IMHO. I wouldn't want any more, the car is stiffer then hell already. Since my sways are adjustable, I'm going to try going with the full soft and see how the car feels. Then go full stiff and see....
-Tom
| MNbiker | 01-21-2004 04:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]I guess for me what it boiled down to, is that I still drive my car to events, so I have to have a "reasonable" springrate in order to be able to drive on the street. The 8 and 10k setup is right on the edge of that IMHO. I wouldn't want any more, the car is stiffer then hell already.......[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, 8kg/10kg is BARELY reasonable for street use, at least on our crappy Northern roads. :(
Tom, you still gonna run with that huge chunk of steel you call a rear swaybar, or switch back to something more normal?:lol:
-Steve
p.s. The good news is, the wife's letting me get a Durango for everyday use, so I'll be towing to the Pro's!:banana: :banana: :banana:
[B]I guess for me what it boiled down to, is that I still drive my car to events, so I have to have a "reasonable" springrate in order to be able to drive on the street. The 8 and 10k setup is right on the edge of that IMHO. I wouldn't want any more, the car is stiffer then hell already.......[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, 8kg/10kg is BARELY reasonable for street use, at least on our crappy Northern roads. :(
Tom, you still gonna run with that huge chunk of steel you call a rear swaybar, or switch back to something more normal?:lol:
-Steve
p.s. The good news is, the wife's letting me get a Durango for everyday use, so I'll be towing to the Pro's!:banana: :banana: :banana:
| trhoppe | 01-21-2004 04:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Tom, you still gonna try & run that huge chunk of steel you call a rear swaybar, or switch back to something more normal?:lol:
[/quote]
The cool thing about that one is that its way adjustable, so at the softest setting it will be "normal" :)
[quote] The good news is, the wife's letting me get a Durango for everyday use, so I'll be towing to the Pro's!:banana: :banana: :banana: [/B][/QUOTE]
Very cool! It makes the trip SO much more comfortable. I got spoiled on towing and now have to make the drive down to the Atlanta Pro w/o a tow car, its going to suck.....
-Tom
[B] Tom, you still gonna try & run that huge chunk of steel you call a rear swaybar, or switch back to something more normal?:lol:
[/quote]
The cool thing about that one is that its way adjustable, so at the softest setting it will be "normal" :)
[quote] The good news is, the wife's letting me get a Durango for everyday use, so I'll be towing to the Pro's!:banana: :banana: :banana: [/B][/QUOTE]
Very cool! It makes the trip SO much more comfortable. I got spoiled on towing and now have to make the drive down to the Atlanta Pro w/o a tow car, its going to suck.....
-Tom
| solo-x | 01-23-2004 04:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B].....So, what I'm getting at is this...what would the pros/cons to going with a high spring rate (like 10f/14r) with regular size swaybars (19-20f/22-24r) vs. going with a lower spring rate like a 6f/8r with huge swaybars (25f/28r)? About the mounts, sounds pretty equal to me.
~Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
any setup will require a certain amount of roll stiffness to acheive the "right" amount of responsiveness and chassis control. this is dependant on grip, cg height, surface type, etc. the roll stiffness can be acheived in several ways, springs and swaybars being the easiest to adjust.
roll stiffness distribution can be tailored with either springs or swaybars. typically a smaller increase in swaybar stiffness will reduce roll by the same amount as a larger increase in spring stiffness. it should be also noted that swaybars and springs change load differently. swaybars work more like shock rebound; stiffer bars will unload the inside tires quicker. springs work more like shock compression; stiffer springs will cause the loaded tire to load quicker. the difference is minimal, but there is a difference.
stiffer springs increase ride stiffness as well as roll stiffness. making the car too stiff in ride can be harmful to mechanical grip on bumpy or slick surfaces. conversely, making the car too stiff in roll and not stiff enough in ride will have it's own negative side effects. one of those is that in the early stages of roll, a stiff bar/soft spring setup would tend to "yank" the inside tires off the racing surface, momentarily causing a loss in grip. the other is that the car may end up with excessive bottoming of the suspension, or worse the chassis.
so which is better? soft springs/stiff bar or stiff springs/soft bar? i'm sure there are situations where one setup is superior to the other. however, in autocross the easiest car to drive fast is the one that handles the most consistently on the largest variety of surface types. to that end, i think a balanced approach between springs and swaybars is a more idealic situation.
my $.02, IMHO, and all that jaz.
nate
[B].....So, what I'm getting at is this...what would the pros/cons to going with a high spring rate (like 10f/14r) with regular size swaybars (19-20f/22-24r) vs. going with a lower spring rate like a 6f/8r with huge swaybars (25f/28r)? About the mounts, sounds pretty equal to me.
~Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
any setup will require a certain amount of roll stiffness to acheive the "right" amount of responsiveness and chassis control. this is dependant on grip, cg height, surface type, etc. the roll stiffness can be acheived in several ways, springs and swaybars being the easiest to adjust.
roll stiffness distribution can be tailored with either springs or swaybars. typically a smaller increase in swaybar stiffness will reduce roll by the same amount as a larger increase in spring stiffness. it should be also noted that swaybars and springs change load differently. swaybars work more like shock rebound; stiffer bars will unload the inside tires quicker. springs work more like shock compression; stiffer springs will cause the loaded tire to load quicker. the difference is minimal, but there is a difference.
stiffer springs increase ride stiffness as well as roll stiffness. making the car too stiff in ride can be harmful to mechanical grip on bumpy or slick surfaces. conversely, making the car too stiff in roll and not stiff enough in ride will have it's own negative side effects. one of those is that in the early stages of roll, a stiff bar/soft spring setup would tend to "yank" the inside tires off the racing surface, momentarily causing a loss in grip. the other is that the car may end up with excessive bottoming of the suspension, or worse the chassis.
so which is better? soft springs/stiff bar or stiff springs/soft bar? i'm sure there are situations where one setup is superior to the other. however, in autocross the easiest car to drive fast is the one that handles the most consistently on the largest variety of surface types. to that end, i think a balanced approach between springs and swaybars is a more idealic situation.
my $.02, IMHO, and all that jaz.
nate
| Orion | 01-23-2004 11:09 PM |
i've been on the OEM tophats all along.:huh:
| TyrannoSullyRex | 01-23-2004 11:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion[/i]
[B] i've been on the OEM tophats all along.:huh: [/B][/QUOTE]
But you have weaknut springs.
I just have the pillowballs that came with my JICs.
[B] i've been on the OEM tophats all along.:huh: [/B][/QUOTE]
But you have weaknut springs.
I just have the pillowballs that came with my JICs.
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