| artkevin | 01-28-2005 09:38 AM |
The new nose of the F2004
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[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/39046.jpg[/IMG]
This must be the first time that the Ferrari looks out of place. Maybe they are just giving this a shot or are trying it out in public to throw off the competition. It doesn't look nearly as elegant as BAR's or Saubers or even the Renault's.
Kevin
This must be the first time that the Ferrari looks out of place. Maybe they are just giving this a shot or are trying it out in public to throw off the competition. It doesn't look nearly as elegant as BAR's or Saubers or even the Renault's.
Kevin
| BillT | 01-28-2005 09:49 AM |
It does look a bit bizarre/awkward compared to the new front wings from BAR and Renault. It looks like it might be more prone to damage from debris or an off track excursion than the other new front wings.
| kfoote | 01-28-2005 10:10 AM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]
This must be the first time that the Ferrari looks out of place. Maybe they are just giving this a shot or are trying it out in public to throw off the competition. It doesn't look nearly as elegant as BAR's or Saubers or even the Renault's.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I don't see any way that his could be an improvement over a standard 3 plane, run-it-as-low-as-you-can setup, never mind what Sauber and BAR have done. I give this a 95% chance of never being run on a race weekend.
This must be the first time that the Ferrari looks out of place. Maybe they are just giving this a shot or are trying it out in public to throw off the competition. It doesn't look nearly as elegant as BAR's or Saubers or even the Renault's.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I don't see any way that his could be an improvement over a standard 3 plane, run-it-as-low-as-you-can setup, never mind what Sauber and BAR have done. I give this a 95% chance of never being run on a race weekend.
| mofugga | 01-28-2005 10:33 AM |
elegant does not equal fast ;)
| kfoote | 01-28-2005 11:02 AM |
[QUOTE=mofugga]elegant does not equal fast ;)[/QUOTE]
I agree, but this is one case where I just don't see how the wing being higher can not be good. The downforce provided in the front wing of a car is proportional to 1/the square of the distance from the ground, menaing that the same profile front wing produces 4 times the downforce at 4cm off the ground as it does at 8cm off the ground. This design strikes me purely as a test piece to test the middle section, and my guess is that they have a totally different main plane designed to work with the center section if it is effective enough in this configuration.
I agree, but this is one case where I just don't see how the wing being higher can not be good. The downforce provided in the front wing of a car is proportional to 1/the square of the distance from the ground, menaing that the same profile front wing produces 4 times the downforce at 4cm off the ground as it does at 8cm off the ground. This design strikes me purely as a test piece to test the middle section, and my guess is that they have a totally different main plane designed to work with the center section if it is effective enough in this configuration.
| XtianLA | 01-28-2005 12:35 PM |
It's interesting.....I don't think it's too bad looking actually. I'm not one to challenge Ferrari's methods though, they own too hard :lol:
| BriDrive | 01-28-2005 01:16 PM |
Its not legal.......got to be a test of some sort.............
| Dr. WOT | 01-28-2005 01:50 PM |
There's an old saying in aviation, "If it looks right, it will fly right...." Well, that nose don't look right.
It could be a diversion, or just a temporary solution since the this car will be replaced by Imola with the 05 car. Either way, I could see it getting flagged by the FIA. Okay, let me rephrase that: if [i]another team[/i] tried it, it could get flagged by the FIA. ;)
It could be a diversion, or just a temporary solution since the this car will be replaced by Imola with the 05 car. Either way, I could see it getting flagged by the FIA. Okay, let me rephrase that: if [i]another team[/i] tried it, it could get flagged by the FIA. ;)
| johnei | 01-28-2005 02:07 PM |
That's interesting about it producing more downforce the closer it is to the ground - although I wonder if they are trying to reduce drag around the front tires by moving it higher. It will be interesting to see what they run with and also what the all new car will look like when it appears.
| dave bruener | 01-28-2005 02:26 PM |
Back when F1 went to the grooved slicks, everyone lamented how awkward the cars looked. I think it is just a matter of being accustomed to something and whether it looks good or bad.
| parker/slc/gc8fan | 01-28-2005 02:38 PM |
that bottom feeder lip looks like it would create more turbulence than downforce.
i'll bet it's tactics. nothing is guarded mroe closely in racing than ferrari's developments. they wanted it out there. no question in my mind.
i'll bet it's tactics. nothing is guarded mroe closely in racing than ferrari's developments. they wanted it out there. no question in my mind.
| artkevin | 01-28-2005 02:42 PM |
[QUOTE=dave bruener]Back when F1 went to the grooved slicks, everyone lamented how awkward the cars looked. I think it is just a matter of being accustomed to something and whether it looks good or bad.[/QUOTE]
Nah, they still look akward with the grooves. CHAMP cars look better and racier then F1 cars do with the big wide flat tires that look like gumballs. I think the BAR and the Renualt are going for the same effect with the nose but have it intergrated with the overall design. The Ferrari looks like a Monster Garage creation. But like XtianLA said, who am I to question the Scuderia?
Kevin
Nah, they still look akward with the grooves. CHAMP cars look better and racier then F1 cars do with the big wide flat tires that look like gumballs. I think the BAR and the Renualt are going for the same effect with the nose but have it intergrated with the overall design. The Ferrari looks like a Monster Garage creation. But like XtianLA said, who am I to question the Scuderia?
Kevin
| BriDrive | 01-28-2005 03:02 PM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]Its not legal.......got to be a test of some sort.............[/QUOTE]
I actually have to correct myself upon examining the tech. regs....
It IS legal.
The new height changes effect any front bodywork that's more than 250mm from the centerline....(basically anything 25cm and farther left or right of center must now be between 150mm and 350mm of the reference plane (the ground)) Reference Article 3, section 3.7.1 & 3.7.2
BriDrive
I actually have to correct myself upon examining the tech. regs....
It IS legal.
The new height changes effect any front bodywork that's more than 250mm from the centerline....(basically anything 25cm and farther left or right of center must now be between 150mm and 350mm of the reference plane (the ground)) Reference Article 3, section 3.7.1 & 3.7.2
BriDrive
| gtguy | 01-28-2005 03:23 PM |
Well, it's fast, anyhow...
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Barcelona: Ferrari one-two!
Badoer in front of Schumacher
Schumacher at the wheel of the F2004 M
Luca Badoer achieved the best time today in Barcelona, driving his Ferrari F2004.
The Ferrari test driver finished ahead of three cars that will appear in the first Grand Prix of the season in Australia: The F2004 M of Michael Schumacher, the McLaren MP4-20 of Juan Pablo Montoya and the Sauber C24 of Felipe Massa.
As a reference, Michael Schumacher took the pole position in last year's Spanish Grand Prix in 1'15"022. The track record is still held by Takuma Sato in 1'13"797 since 3 February 2004.
Barcelona - 28/01/05
1. Luca Badoer - Ferrari F2004 - 1'15"899 - 75 laps
2. Michael Schumacher - Ferrari F2004M - 1'16"002 - 57 laps
3. Juan Pablo Montoya - McLaren Mercedes MP4/20 - 1'16"536 - 72 laps
4. Felipe Massa - Sauber Petronas C24 - 1'17"470 - 91 laps
Badoer in front of Schumacher
Schumacher at the wheel of the F2004 M
Luca Badoer achieved the best time today in Barcelona, driving his Ferrari F2004.
The Ferrari test driver finished ahead of three cars that will appear in the first Grand Prix of the season in Australia: The F2004 M of Michael Schumacher, the McLaren MP4-20 of Juan Pablo Montoya and the Sauber C24 of Felipe Massa.
As a reference, Michael Schumacher took the pole position in last year's Spanish Grand Prix in 1'15"022. The track record is still held by Takuma Sato in 1'13"797 since 3 February 2004.
Barcelona - 28/01/05
1. Luca Badoer - Ferrari F2004 - 1'15"899 - 75 laps
2. Michael Schumacher - Ferrari F2004M - 1'16"002 - 57 laps
3. Juan Pablo Montoya - McLaren Mercedes MP4/20 - 1'16"536 - 72 laps
4. Felipe Massa - Sauber Petronas C24 - 1'17"470 - 91 laps
| gtguy | 01-28-2005 03:26 PM |
As an afterthought, that picture can be deceiving. We don't know how low the under part droops, of if it droops at all. It could be that, viewed from the side, it isn't any lower than the sides of the main front wing.
Kevin
Kevin
| artkevin | 01-28-2005 03:49 PM |
[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/39050.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2005/tests12/diapo_113.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2005/tests12/diapo_114.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2005/tests12/diapo_113.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2005/tests12/diapo_114.jpg[/IMG]
| Achilles38WRX | 01-28-2005 03:58 PM |
maybe its not there for aero purposes, but something to do with jacking up the car instead?
| Paisan | 01-28-2005 04:07 PM |
Hmm and this relates to subarus how? :)
-mike
-mike
| artkevin | 01-28-2005 05:35 PM |
:confused:
| johnfelstead | 01-28-2005 05:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Paisan]Hmm and this relates to subarus how? :)
-mike[/QUOTE]
Hmm what a dumb question. :)
-john
-mike[/QUOTE]
Hmm what a dumb question. :)
-john
| GT2RS | 01-28-2005 06:06 PM |
[QUOTE=Paisan]Hmm and this relates to subarus how? :)
-mike[/QUOTE]
unusual wings ;)
-mike[/QUOTE]
unusual wings ;)
| Bonzo | 01-28-2005 06:26 PM |
maybe they don't need more downforce.
They could be looking at keeping a clean flow over the sidepods and the rest of the car thus gaining on the complete package.
They could be looking at keeping a clean flow over the sidepods and the rest of the car thus gaining on the complete package.
| Porsche914boxer4 | 01-28-2005 09:30 PM |
or, maybe, the downforce is generated because of the steeper lateral angle and not the proximity to the ground?
| TheRipler | 01-29-2005 11:15 AM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]I actually have to correct myself upon examining the tech. regs....
It IS legal.
The new height changes effect any front bodywork that's more than 250mm from the centerline....(basically anything 25cm and farther left or right of center must now be between 150mm and 350mm of the reference plane (the ground)) Reference Article 3, section 3.7.1 & 3.7.2
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
I think the reference plane is actually the bottom of the car. I'm having trouble finding the definition of it right now, but if you look at 3.13.2, you can see that the skidplate is below the reference plane.
It IS legal.
The new height changes effect any front bodywork that's more than 250mm from the centerline....(basically anything 25cm and farther left or right of center must now be between 150mm and 350mm of the reference plane (the ground)) Reference Article 3, section 3.7.1 & 3.7.2
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
I think the reference plane is actually the bottom of the car. I'm having trouble finding the definition of it right now, but if you look at 3.13.2, you can see that the skidplate is below the reference plane.
| BriDrive | 01-31-2005 10:02 AM |
There's more than 1 reference plane.
The piece, as located, is legal as long as it does not exceed 50 cm centered on the centerline reference plane and can be a minimum 5 cm from the ground.
The reference plane relating to these measurements is actually a hypothetical, flat, level surface representing the ground. This is the same plane from which many,many things are referenced, including the skid block. The theoretical bottom of the car is 'another' horizontal plane from which elements are referenced.
The piece, as located, is legal as long as it does not exceed 50 cm centered on the centerline reference plane and can be a minimum 5 cm from the ground.
The reference plane relating to these measurements is actually a hypothetical, flat, level surface representing the ground. This is the same plane from which many,many things are referenced, including the skid block. The theoretical bottom of the car is 'another' horizontal plane from which elements are referenced.
| TheRipler | 01-31-2005 05:26 PM |
The skidplate would seem to cause a lot of friction 10mm below ground. I would really like to see a reference to the reference plane, if anyone knows where that is. I could have sworn I saw it somewhere in the regs last year, but I still can't find it.
I did find [URL=http://www.f1.panasonic.com/en/notes_quiz/2003/notes_quiz_11.html]this on f1.panasonic.com[/URL]. Check note:2.
[QUOTE]Bottom panel : The undermost panel of the chassis consisting of the reference plane and step plane.[/QUOTE]
Found this on pitpass.com: [URL=http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=23217]The TF105 up close[/URL]
[IMG]http://www.pitpass.com/images/headlines/cars/toyota/2005tf105drawing03.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]from [URL=http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00190.html]grandprix.com[/URL]: Article on Scrutineering
The platform is raised until the top surfaces of the 6 bosses come up against the lower surface of the monocoque, which is the Reference Plane, as defined in the regulations. The floating part of the platform is now parallel to and 14mm below the Reference Plane. [B]For 1995 the regulations were changed so that all height measurements are now relative to the Reference Plane, and not the ground.[/B] This was done at the request of the Chief Designers, to make their jobs easier and enables this new equipment to be used for all measurements.[/QUOTE]
I did find [URL=http://www.f1.panasonic.com/en/notes_quiz/2003/notes_quiz_11.html]this on f1.panasonic.com[/URL]. Check note:2.
[QUOTE]Bottom panel : The undermost panel of the chassis consisting of the reference plane and step plane.[/QUOTE]
Found this on pitpass.com: [URL=http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=23217]The TF105 up close[/URL]
[IMG]http://www.pitpass.com/images/headlines/cars/toyota/2005tf105drawing03.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]from [URL=http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00190.html]grandprix.com[/URL]: Article on Scrutineering
The platform is raised until the top surfaces of the 6 bosses come up against the lower surface of the monocoque, which is the Reference Plane, as defined in the regulations. The floating part of the platform is now parallel to and 14mm below the Reference Plane. [B]For 1995 the regulations were changed so that all height measurements are now relative to the Reference Plane, and not the ground.[/B] This was done at the request of the Chief Designers, to make their jobs easier and enables this new equipment to be used for all measurements.[/QUOTE]
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