| drain bramage | 10-14-2005 06:26 PM |
what would i benefit from a roll cage (autox) i dont rally
�
�
anything besides less $
| mccanixx | 10-14-2005 06:30 PM |
If done correctly, perhaps a stiffer car?
Plus you'd have omething you could move to club racing. :)
Plus you'd have omething you could move to club racing. :)
| drf | 10-14-2005 06:42 PM |
A cage isn't safe for the street, unless you wear a helmet all the time.
| Protege Menace | 10-14-2005 06:58 PM |
weight, annoyance of having to climb in and out every time.... MONEY
I wouldnt.
I wouldnt.
| Master2192 | 10-14-2005 07:01 PM |
Whats wrong with climbing in an out? As long as you got something to roll down the windows remotely :-)
| Protege Menace | 10-14-2005 07:20 PM |
might be because im 10 feet tall but getting in and out of cages cant be a pain.
sometimes I say F it and summersault/roll out into the gravel :lol:
sometimes I say F it and summersault/roll out into the gravel :lol:
| drain bramage | 10-15-2005 03:54 AM |
[QUOTE=Protege Menace]might be because im 10 feet tall but getting in and out of cages cant be a pain.
sometimes I say F it and summersault/roll out into the gravel :lol:[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
sometimes I say F it and summersault/roll out into the gravel :lol:[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
| Protege Menace | 10-15-2005 04:38 AM |
one of the other co-drivers wanted to get a picture of me doing it but we never got around to it. I think it was at ojibwe.
some cars are easy, I can step into them pretty normaly, some I have to hang onto the roof bars and act like a monkey on bars swinging into it.
some cars are easy, I can step into them pretty normaly, some I have to hang onto the roof bars and act like a monkey on bars swinging into it.
| akuhner | 10-15-2005 09:08 AM |
NOTHING! Never put a cage in unless the rules of the series you want to run require it! If you build a cage and aren't looking at a rule book to make sure it will pass tech at some event or something, you are wasting your time and money.
There have to be at least 3 or 4 threads about this in the last year or two...
There have to be at least 3 or 4 threads about this in the last year or two...
| Butt Dyno | 10-15-2005 09:57 AM |
[QUOTE=drain bramage]anything besides less $[/QUOTE]
It would help if you said why you were considering one?
You could always just get a roll BAR instead of a cage if you were still keeping it a somewhat streetable car.
john
It would help if you said why you were considering one?
You could always just get a roll BAR instead of a cage if you were still keeping it a somewhat streetable car.
john
| WRX_Mundi | 10-15-2005 02:36 PM |
Well maybe if you were already 100+ pounds underweight for your class (SM or beyond). You'd have to start with an awfully light car though. Depending on the design they can stiffen up the car quite a bit, but they add a bunch of weight and ruin streetability. Then you'd have to be careful as well that you did a good enough job to make it worthwhile, but not so good that it threw you into modified class if you didn't want to be there.
Oh, another reason might be if you do hillclimbs with the car. After seeing a friend completely ball up his car, then do it again the next year, a lot of us around here are thinking about putting cages in the car if we're going to hillclimb in it. But it's probably a detriment for autocross overall.
Harness bars are nice, but I suspect mine adds too much weight. I love the 3" belts with camlock though.
Oh, another reason might be if you do hillclimbs with the car. After seeing a friend completely ball up his car, then do it again the next year, a lot of us around here are thinking about putting cages in the car if we're going to hillclimb in it. But it's probably a detriment for autocross overall.
Harness bars are nice, but I suspect mine adds too much weight. I love the 3" belts with camlock though.
| jmott | 10-15-2005 02:50 PM |
for autox, cage or rollbar = no
but, if you do track days and stuff from time to time, a 4 pt rollbar isn't a terrible idea and will only add 40-60lbs
but, if you do track days and stuff from time to time, a 4 pt rollbar isn't a terrible idea and will only add 40-60lbs
| Ryokosman | 10-15-2005 03:52 PM |
I do track days I I had a roll bar with door bars built. I wouldn't run a harness without one.
| Dave Clark | 10-15-2005 04:43 PM |
Well, for one thing, a properly installed rollcage is the single biggest improvement you can do to the handling of your car. And, no, Autopower cages don't count. They are horrible crap that don't fit and encroach into the interior too much. They also bolt to the weakest parts of the floor. Stay away from them. A proper rollcage is welded in tight up against the body and tied in multiple places around the shell. Probably overkill for a street car or cone-squasher, though.
A cage isn't safe for the street? What, are you nuts? :confused: If you get in a crash would you rather be in a car with a rollcage or without? If you are worried about bumpin' your noggin there is such a thing as rollbar padding!
A cage isn't safe for the street? What, are you nuts? :confused: If you get in a crash would you rather be in a car with a rollcage or without? If you are worried about bumpin' your noggin there is such a thing as rollbar padding!
| Protege Menace | 10-15-2005 05:09 PM |
[QUOTE=Dave Clark]Well, for one thing, a properly installed rollcage is the single biggest improvement you can do to the handling of your car. And, no, Autopower cages don't count. They are horrible crap that don't fit and encroach into the interior too much. They also bolt to the weakest parts of the floor. Stay away from them. A proper rollcage is welded in tight up against the body and tied in multiple places around the shell. Probably overkill for a street car or cone-squasher, though.
A cage isn't safe for the street? What, are you nuts? :confused: If you get in a crash would you rather be in a car with a rollcage or without? If you are worried about bumpin' your noggin there is such a thing as rollbar padding![/QUOTE]
only if you have a full belt setup and wear it all the time. and a helmet.
i would NOT trust my life to a little bit of "padding"
and isn't padding is meant to cushing a helmet, not bare skull....
A cage isn't safe for the street? What, are you nuts? :confused: If you get in a crash would you rather be in a car with a rollcage or without? If you are worried about bumpin' your noggin there is such a thing as rollbar padding![/QUOTE]
only if you have a full belt setup and wear it all the time. and a helmet.
i would NOT trust my life to a little bit of "padding"
and isn't padding is meant to cushing a helmet, not bare skull....
| MattSTi | 10-15-2005 06:25 PM |
I have one of the 4pt. autopower race roll bars in my STi for track days. I agree that it is definitely not as good as a custom cage/bar, but it is much better than nothing and allos me to feel more comfortable running 5 pt. harnesses. However, I wouldn't recommend it for Autox alone. If you do a lot of track days it gives an extra degree of safety and will allow you to run harnesses safely.
just my .02
-Matt
just my .02
-Matt
| WRX_Mundi | 10-15-2005 06:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Dave Clark]A proper rollcage is welded in tight up against the body and tied in multiple places around the shell. Probably overkill for a street car or cone-squasher, though.[/quote]And there is where you have to pay attention to the rules (which I may butcher, but the point is that in SCCA Solo II, there are rules limiting how much you can do in the non-race-car classes). Our original poster didn't tell us the class he is in or intending to be in. In stock and street prepared classes cages can only be bolted in and must stay within the passenger compartment. Roll bars can be welded but can only have 4 attachment points. In street prepared and street modified the cage may be welded and must have at most 6 attachment points plus two additional brace attachments, with restrictions on some of the mounting points. Technically there is a [i]requirement[/i] for roll cage padding for Solo II, though nobody seems to enforce it around here.
One of the points of the Stock rules is to try to keep the weight penalty above the benefit of additional stiffness for most cars, since you can't do all the chassis tie-ins that one might like but still have to follow the rules about material, thickness, and proper construction. Even once you can got to welded cages and more attachments, it's hard to ignore the weight penalty for autocross. For Stock, ST, SP, and SM, for most cars, it's not something done purely to get faster times at Solo II events (as far as I know, but the more experienced people may know better). If your car is [u]seriously[/u] in need of additional chassis stiffness, or if you're actually using the cage as ballast to reach minimum weight, then it could be used for advantage.
To be fair, for most local drivers in production cars, the weight penalty is awfully small compared to available driving skill improvements, so I wouldn't stress too much about it if you really want it and aren't planning to go trophy at nationals. Being alive after a track wreck is infinitely better for your times than death or disability.
For those of us with 4-door sedans who rely on the back seat space to carry tires, putting lots of cross bracing in the rear reduces streetability. Having to carry extra helmets for any possible passengers is also an issue. But if you trailer your dedicated autocross car everywhere, then those aren't considerations.
One of the points of the Stock rules is to try to keep the weight penalty above the benefit of additional stiffness for most cars, since you can't do all the chassis tie-ins that one might like but still have to follow the rules about material, thickness, and proper construction. Even once you can got to welded cages and more attachments, it's hard to ignore the weight penalty for autocross. For Stock, ST, SP, and SM, for most cars, it's not something done purely to get faster times at Solo II events (as far as I know, but the more experienced people may know better). If your car is [u]seriously[/u] in need of additional chassis stiffness, or if you're actually using the cage as ballast to reach minimum weight, then it could be used for advantage.
To be fair, for most local drivers in production cars, the weight penalty is awfully small compared to available driving skill improvements, so I wouldn't stress too much about it if you really want it and aren't planning to go trophy at nationals. Being alive after a track wreck is infinitely better for your times than death or disability.
For those of us with 4-door sedans who rely on the back seat space to carry tires, putting lots of cross bracing in the rear reduces streetability. Having to carry extra helmets for any possible passengers is also an issue. But if you trailer your dedicated autocross car everywhere, then those aren't considerations.
| goto_racing | 10-15-2005 06:48 PM |
[QUOTE=Protege Menace]only if you have a full belt setup and wear it all the time. and a helmet.
i would NOT trust my life to a little bit of "padding"
and isn't padding is meant to cushing a helmet, not bare skull....[/QUOTE]
But everyone here who advocates against roll cages in street cars will trust vinyl interior to protect your head from the sheet metal in the A pillar and B pillar? Give me a break.
I think people in here know where I come down on this issue. The only thing unsafe about a roll cage in a car is that, since the car was not designed around it, it protrudes slightly, making it(if you had a good custom one installed) about 2" closer to your body than the interior would have been. This slightly increases the chance of you making contact with it. But in the kind of collision people talk about, contact is gauranteed anyway. (oh, and rear passengers are obviously in peril. don't be dumb and seat people in the rear of a car with a roll cage people, please)
A friend of mine survived a side on wreck where the other driver was decapited by the A pillar while wearing their stock 3 point belt. Not having a roll cage didn't save him. Pure luck my friends head went through the window rather than into the A pillar.
The bottom line is that you are in mortal peril in your car all the time. There is metal all around you. Just because it is under vinyl and leather doesn't mean it can't hurt you, any less than your roll cage could while clad in it's padding. You can argue till you are blue in the face about it. If detroit cared more about lives and less about cost, then every car would be a space frame or composite monocoque with crush boxes, and yes, roll cages.
That wreck at San Jose Grand Prix with the integra was a 70mph impact. I have seen cars on my commute cut in half by that kind of T-bone accident, but with a roll cage, the car retained it's shape, and the driver walked away. No, his head didn't hit anything. But if that cage were not there, he would have been WEARING that civic in his lap.
This might be personal opinion, but if you asked me what I would rather race without, my helmet or my roll cage, the helmet would be out the window.
Chris Lock
i would NOT trust my life to a little bit of "padding"
and isn't padding is meant to cushing a helmet, not bare skull....[/QUOTE]
But everyone here who advocates against roll cages in street cars will trust vinyl interior to protect your head from the sheet metal in the A pillar and B pillar? Give me a break.
I think people in here know where I come down on this issue. The only thing unsafe about a roll cage in a car is that, since the car was not designed around it, it protrudes slightly, making it(if you had a good custom one installed) about 2" closer to your body than the interior would have been. This slightly increases the chance of you making contact with it. But in the kind of collision people talk about, contact is gauranteed anyway. (oh, and rear passengers are obviously in peril. don't be dumb and seat people in the rear of a car with a roll cage people, please)
A friend of mine survived a side on wreck where the other driver was decapited by the A pillar while wearing their stock 3 point belt. Not having a roll cage didn't save him. Pure luck my friends head went through the window rather than into the A pillar.
The bottom line is that you are in mortal peril in your car all the time. There is metal all around you. Just because it is under vinyl and leather doesn't mean it can't hurt you, any less than your roll cage could while clad in it's padding. You can argue till you are blue in the face about it. If detroit cared more about lives and less about cost, then every car would be a space frame or composite monocoque with crush boxes, and yes, roll cages.
That wreck at San Jose Grand Prix with the integra was a 70mph impact. I have seen cars on my commute cut in half by that kind of T-bone accident, but with a roll cage, the car retained it's shape, and the driver walked away. No, his head didn't hit anything. But if that cage were not there, he would have been WEARING that civic in his lap.
This might be personal opinion, but if you asked me what I would rather race without, my helmet or my roll cage, the helmet would be out the window.
Chris Lock
| okaythen | 04-24-2007 04:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Protege Menace;11389949]only if you have a full belt setup and wear it all the time. and a helmet.
i would NOT trust my life to a little bit of "padding"
and isn't padding is meant to cushing a helmet, not bare skull....[/QUOTE]
I use my wrx for track racing and is daily driven too.....so when I get a roll cage I need the 4, or 5 pt restraint/seat and helmet? why do you need to wear helmet at all times? what if you don't? I am talking about driven in street.....
i would NOT trust my life to a little bit of "padding"
and isn't padding is meant to cushing a helmet, not bare skull....[/QUOTE]
I use my wrx for track racing and is daily driven too.....so when I get a roll cage I need the 4, or 5 pt restraint/seat and helmet? why do you need to wear helmet at all times? what if you don't? I am talking about driven in street.....
| bignels | 04-24-2007 05:25 PM |
[quote=okaythen;17839063]I use my wrx for track racing and is daily driven too.....so when I get a roll cage I need the 4, or 5 pt restraint/seat and helmet? why do you need to wear helmet at all times? what if you don't? I am talking about driven in street.....[/quote]
Okay, let me give you an example:
Suppose you're driving, granny style following all the rules of the road. You are the perfect driver.
Now, badd (intentional) ass sancho over there is not. He takes a red when you have the green and you get hit. Where do you think your head is going to most likely make contact? That's right: the roll cage. And let me tell you, that **** hurts. It hurts so much it could crack your damn skull open; like wacking a watermelon with a hammer. Padding won't help.
Cages are only meant to be used with helmets. Paddings are to cushion your helmet if, God forbid, you crash.
Okay, let me give you an example:
Suppose you're driving, granny style following all the rules of the road. You are the perfect driver.
Now, badd (intentional) ass sancho over there is not. He takes a red when you have the green and you get hit. Where do you think your head is going to most likely make contact? That's right: the roll cage. And let me tell you, that **** hurts. It hurts so much it could crack your damn skull open; like wacking a watermelon with a hammer. Padding won't help.
Cages are only meant to be used with helmets. Paddings are to cushion your helmet if, God forbid, you crash.
| SubaruCO | 04-24-2007 05:43 PM |
[QUOTE=okaythen;17839063]I use my wrx for track racing and is daily driven too.....so when I get a roll cage I need the 4, or 5 pt restraint/seat and helmet? why do you need to wear helmet at all times? what if you don't? I am talking about driven in street.....[/QUOTE]
Realistically there is no benefit for reduced head trauma in a properly installed and padded cage vs. no cage IF your head comes into contact with parts of the car during an accident while you are not wearing a helmet.
What the cage (and a better seat an harness system) will do in a collision is lessen the chance your head will come into contact with the surrounding car in the first place.
SO, on the street there is a benefit to wearing your helmet in a caged car (there are no real safety downsides to wearing one in any vehicle all the time), but not wearing one won't make driving a caged and padded car any less safe than a regular vehicle.
*Note - this discussion does not account for airbags which throw another wrench into the equation.
Realistically there is no benefit for reduced head trauma in a properly installed and padded cage vs. no cage IF your head comes into contact with parts of the car during an accident while you are not wearing a helmet.
What the cage (and a better seat an harness system) will do in a collision is lessen the chance your head will come into contact with the surrounding car in the first place.
SO, on the street there is a benefit to wearing your helmet in a caged car (there are no real safety downsides to wearing one in any vehicle all the time), but not wearing one won't make driving a caged and padded car any less safe than a regular vehicle.
*Note - this discussion does not account for airbags which throw another wrench into the equation.
| cowapult | 04-24-2007 05:57 PM |
[quote=drf;11383717]A cage isn't safe for the street, unless you wear a helmet all the time.[/quote]
I used to take this sort of opinion seriously, then I rode in my friend's Wrangler and I gained some perspective (a bone stock wrangler - I'm talking about the OEM bars next to my head).
Anyway, even without the roll bar your head smacks the window or other hard things in an accident. God help you if your window is half down and your temple smacks right on the end of the window. Unless you have side airbags, then this discussion is all moot.
I used to take this sort of opinion seriously, then I rode in my friend's Wrangler and I gained some perspective (a bone stock wrangler - I'm talking about the OEM bars next to my head).
Anyway, even without the roll bar your head smacks the window or other hard things in an accident. God help you if your window is half down and your temple smacks right on the end of the window. Unless you have side airbags, then this discussion is all moot.
| IT Swift | 04-24-2007 06:40 PM |
just look at it this way.... for every accident on the street in which a roll cage will kill you, how many will there be where it SAVES you?
It's six-one, half a dozen the other. One accident the cage may save you from being decapitated. Another accident it may pinch your head like a ripe zit.
One thing that I've never seen (nor has anybody, I think), is documented proof that rollcages make a car more dangerous in street cars...
It's six-one, half a dozen the other. One accident the cage may save you from being decapitated. Another accident it may pinch your head like a ripe zit.
One thing that I've never seen (nor has anybody, I think), is documented proof that rollcages make a car more dangerous in street cars...
| okaythen | 04-24-2007 10:17 PM |
so a roll cage is good if you only use the car for racing.....but if you use it on the street you should wear helmet and proper restraint at ALL times?
for me it's daily driven and I race with it also....if I wear helmet it would look funny on the street....hmmm so what do you guys recommend? when I get a cage I need the proper restraint and need to wear helmet at all times racing or not. It will be around a high 10 sec car so I guess a roll cage is a must along with other things.
for my case what if I just don't get the roll cage? wearing helmet on the street would just be unbearable heh.
for me it's daily driven and I race with it also....if I wear helmet it would look funny on the street....hmmm so what do you guys recommend? when I get a cage I need the proper restraint and need to wear helmet at all times racing or not. It will be around a high 10 sec car so I guess a roll cage is a must along with other things.
for my case what if I just don't get the roll cage? wearing helmet on the street would just be unbearable heh.
| Howl | 04-25-2007 08:50 AM |
A roll cage will improve the rigidity of the car and will improve your chances of surviving a catastrophic accident, particularly if you are strapped snugly in the seat by a 5-point harness and you are wearing a helmet. A roll cage won't do much for your safety during non-catastrophic accidents, which are more typical on the street, and the cage itself may become an object for your head to hit, if your not wearing a 5-point harness and a helmet.
Most people have concluded that having a roll cage JUST for street use (particularly in an already rigid and safe car like a Subaru) is not worth the hassles. It makes it difficult to get in and out of the car, it reduces the interior space around the driver, it makes the rear seat almost un-usable, it may restrict your visibility, it will attract unwanted attention from the police and streetracers, it may affect your insurance coverage, and it makes you look like a ricer.
If you're doing a lot of track driving and you push yourself so hard that you're worried you may roll your car then a cage might be worth considering. But if you're pushing yourself SO hard that you might roll your car you also have to be able to afford financially to wreck your car, in which case you might want to consider getting a track car and a separate street car.
Most people have concluded that having a roll cage JUST for street use (particularly in an already rigid and safe car like a Subaru) is not worth the hassles. It makes it difficult to get in and out of the car, it reduces the interior space around the driver, it makes the rear seat almost un-usable, it may restrict your visibility, it will attract unwanted attention from the police and streetracers, it may affect your insurance coverage, and it makes you look like a ricer.
If you're doing a lot of track driving and you push yourself so hard that you're worried you may roll your car then a cage might be worth considering. But if you're pushing yourself SO hard that you might roll your car you also have to be able to afford financially to wreck your car, in which case you might want to consider getting a track car and a separate street car.
| Storz | 04-25-2007 12:46 PM |
Very long thread on this over at GRM as well
[url]http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=24792[/url]
[url]http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=24792[/url]
| akuhner | 04-25-2007 08:39 PM |
[QUOTE=IT Swift;17840702]It's six-one, half a dozen the other. One accident the cage may save you from being decapitated. Another accident it may pinch your head like a ripe zit.[/QUOTE]
Wise words, nice imagery!
[QUOTE=okaythen;17843304]so a roll cage is good if you only use the car for racing.....but if you use it on the street you should wear helmet and proper restraint at ALL times?
for me it's daily driven and I race with it also....if I wear helmet it would look funny on the street.....[/QUOTE]
I don't think you are seeing the forest through the trees. Nobody here who has a roll cage wears their helmet for street driving - the only time I've done that is when the transit to the rally stage was so short I might not have time to put it on before my start. However, you have to understand that you are taking a risk driving around on the street with steel bars around your head.
A street car is designed to keep you safe using ALL of the components the engineers intended you to use. Like if you aren't wearing a seat belt your air bag can actually screw you up more - it's engineered around you wearing the seat belt and having the airbag help you. A cage is engineered around you wearing a 5pt and helmet, so if you don't wear them it simply will not protect you [B]as intended.[/B] It's your head, you decide how to protect it.
Wise words, nice imagery!
[QUOTE=okaythen;17843304]so a roll cage is good if you only use the car for racing.....but if you use it on the street you should wear helmet and proper restraint at ALL times?
for me it's daily driven and I race with it also....if I wear helmet it would look funny on the street.....[/QUOTE]
I don't think you are seeing the forest through the trees. Nobody here who has a roll cage wears their helmet for street driving - the only time I've done that is when the transit to the rally stage was so short I might not have time to put it on before my start. However, you have to understand that you are taking a risk driving around on the street with steel bars around your head.
A street car is designed to keep you safe using ALL of the components the engineers intended you to use. Like if you aren't wearing a seat belt your air bag can actually screw you up more - it's engineered around you wearing the seat belt and having the airbag help you. A cage is engineered around you wearing a 5pt and helmet, so if you don't wear them it simply will not protect you [B]as intended.[/B] It's your head, you decide how to protect it.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét