| rban | 05-14-2001 08:32 AM |
WRC vs ProRally
I was wondering how similar ProDrive's WRC and ProRally cars are to one another? Is Schiebel's car more or less identical to Burnsie's?
Cheers,
Rey
Cheers,
Rey
| Thug | 05-14-2001 08:49 AM |
I could be wrong, but Id have to say that they are very different. The cost of building a WRC car is probably close to 10X that of building a highly competitive Open Class ProRally car.
| Subie Gal | 05-14-2001 09:08 AM |
schieble's car is a Gp N car.. not near a wrc...
Lovell's car is nearly a full spec WRC car... it's actually a used WRC body shell and the internals are damn near the same.. engine specs??? well... honestly, i am not sure what Mark has under there...
but his car is the closest thing we've seen to WRC specs yet
j. [url="http://www.subiegal.com"]www.subiegal.com[/url]
Lovell's car is nearly a full spec WRC car... it's actually a used WRC body shell and the internals are damn near the same.. engine specs??? well... honestly, i am not sure what Mark has under there...
but his car is the closest thing we've seen to WRC specs yet
j. [url="http://www.subiegal.com"]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Thug | 05-14-2001 09:40 AM |
Whoa, I didnt think Subaru was interested in dropping that much cake on ProRally. Very interesting.
| grimlock | 05-14-2001 10:18 AM |
Yeah, I'm still shocked that he put seven minutes on the rest of the field at RIM. I know he's a good driver, but beating Rhys by that much is insane. What a car.
Ross N.
Ross N.
| Robin2 | 05-14-2001 02:10 PM |
On the Canadian rally circuit, Tom McGeer (www.tntracing.ca) has now a 2002 WRX and should be around a Group A FIA car... or very close...
I'd have to ask VIII since he knows it best...
An average group N car cost around $40-70k US... depending on how used it is...
Robin [url="http://www.ottawasubaru.com"]www.ottawasubaru.com[/url]
I'd have to ask VIII since he knows it best...
An average group N car cost around $40-70k US... depending on how used it is...
Robin [url="http://www.ottawasubaru.com"]www.ottawasubaru.com[/url]
| bryanw | 05-14-2001 02:25 PM |
You can see most of the difference on the Subaru Rally Team USA site: [url="http://www.rally.subaru.com/subral/index.html"]http://www.rally.subaru.com/subral/index.html[/url]
The engine is 50+ hp less than the WRC car, and the transmissions are completely different. Lots of suspension differences too.
The engine is 50+ hp less than the WRC car, and the transmissions are completely different. Lots of suspension differences too.
| rban | 05-14-2001 03:28 PM |
Doh! I mean Lovell's, not Scheible's. . .
7 minutes?!?! Cripes!!!!
R
7 minutes?!?! Cripes!!!!
R
| Dave_Clark | 05-14-2001 09:14 PM |
Keep in mind that at Rim whoever is first on the road will probably win because of the dust. Lovell started first on the road giving him a big advantage. Having no dust in front of him alone was probably worth at least 2 minutes. I have no doubt, however, that had he not started first on the road he would have been there by the reseed.
Check out the STPR start list. Quite curiously they have Karl Scheible starting first. Lovell is a few cars back. A Group N car ahead of all the Open cars. STPR is another rally known for choking dust.
Tom McGeers car is a reshell of last years car. Older Group A Prodrive parts in a new WRX body. It's got all the good bits plus a fresh engine. It's not as technologically advanced as Lovell's car but it's still damn fast. And it doesn't take 17 mechanics to keep it going!
Check out the STPR start list. Quite curiously they have Karl Scheible starting first. Lovell is a few cars back. A Group N car ahead of all the Open cars. STPR is another rally known for choking dust.
Tom McGeers car is a reshell of last years car. Older Group A Prodrive parts in a new WRX body. It's got all the good bits plus a fresh engine. It's not as technologically advanced as Lovell's car but it's still damn fast. And it doesn't take 17 mechanics to keep it going!
| meebs | 05-14-2001 09:54 PM |
[i]Whoa, I didnt think Subaru was interested in dropping that much cake on ProRally. Very interesting. [/i]
The states are the biggest car market in the world. Motorsport = $ales. Ferrari was very happy to see a U.S. GP again, they get to show off to their biggest customer base.
The states are the biggest car market in the world. Motorsport = $ales. Ferrari was very happy to see a U.S. GP again, they get to show off to their biggest customer base.
| rB5 | 05-14-2001 10:34 PM |
Yup, i'd say Subaru has everything to gain by making a big appearance over here. They are strategically placing themselves on the top rungs of the ProRally circuit for maximum exposure. Right now there is no team that can compete with them; the closest is Mitsu's backing of Rhys, but even they're not going to the lengths Subaru is. It just may be the jumpstart that ProRally needs to get it up to World Rally standards.
| jmullan | 05-15-2001 12:56 AM |
I heard rumor that Lovell's car is a [i]derestricted[/i] WRC car, and that Subaru will be doing a lot of testing here, especially of the transmission.
| Damon | 05-15-2001 06:48 AM |
i agree with you guys.. its very encouraging (sp?) to see subaru so heavy in this.. even if its basically all for them. maybe mitsu america will jump on board one day [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
| cvalle-sd | 05-15-2001 07:22 AM |
There were three VERY Mitsubishi-looking guys lurking at most of the event venues. They were tooling around in swank Ralliart parkas, odd, since it was HOT AS HELL, but I saw them looking very intently at all things Subaru, from the WRC to the booth/displays. I'd would be surprised if in two years, we don't have Mitsubishi and Ford US teams, with a WRC event in the works
| XT6Wagon | 05-15-2001 09:29 PM |
Good lord, ProRally open class all but doesn't HAVE rules. I bet a properly funded ProRally team would build a car that makes the WRC car look like a sloth with a broken leg. Sadly I seen open class turning into a WRC clone in short order as money enters, and the cars get really fast.
| Greg Sharpe | 05-15-2001 10:46 PM |
Neat topic. I wonder how the emminent arrival of FIA rallying will effect rallyists here in the states. For instance, I 've seen teams in open class whom are already working on the setup for the turbo inlet restrictor, even running the restrictors in competition! But how long until FIA gets an event here?
Lovells car seemed to be made [i]of[/i] carbon fiber, whereas Schieble's car looked like every WRX owners wet dream, just a monetarily restricted.
Lovells car seemed to be made [i]of[/i] carbon fiber, whereas Schieble's car looked like every WRX owners wet dream, just a monetarily restricted.
| brandonl | 05-15-2001 11:08 PM |
Good lord, ProRally open class all but doesn't HAVE rules. I bet a properly funded ProRally team would build a car that makes the WRC car look like a sloth with a broken leg.
Some how I doubt that. The fastest of the fast rally cars have already been built and banned. I shouldnt say the fastest, just the most powerful. The modern WRC cars are actually faster than the old Group B monsters. BTW, the SCCA's open class has several rules that prohibit beastly rally machines, since it is possible to get well over 600hp from cars such as a DSM, but not with a restrictor in place.
Some how I doubt that. The fastest of the fast rally cars have already been built and banned. I shouldnt say the fastest, just the most powerful. The modern WRC cars are actually faster than the old Group B monsters. BTW, the SCCA's open class has several rules that prohibit beastly rally machines, since it is possible to get well over 600hp from cars such as a DSM, but not with a restrictor in place.
| cvalle-sd | 05-16-2001 07:54 AM |
Yeah, they do have some good common-sense rules, restrictors, etc. Considering the relatively casual control of spectator access and placement, and the lower average level of driver ability than the Grp.Bs or modern WRCs at their zenith - I think SCCA Open class is fast enough.
PS - trivia: Mark Lovell has driven the RS200 Killer B as well as the WRX-WRC. How nifty for him.
[This message has been edited by cvalle-sd (edited May 16, 2001).]
PS - trivia: Mark Lovell has driven the RS200 Killer B as well as the WRX-WRC. How nifty for him.
[This message has been edited by cvalle-sd (edited May 16, 2001).]
| Gary (gg) | 05-16-2001 07:56 AM |
The catch is that the open class must run a restrictor plate on turbocharged cars. The one difference to me is that ProRally has more night stages to me and I remember watching on TV where about 20 out of 60 crashed out during the night. To me, that is not good for the sport since these are privateers and for some that is it for the season. Night stages + no predriving course = crashes. Hopefully, that the sport is growing so that they can run more during the day.
| XT6Wagon | 05-16-2001 10:41 AM |
They have restrictors on TURBO 4WD cars. If you have a 2wd, or non-turbo 4wd you can run w/o one.
More importantly the rules regarding OTHER modifactions are next to nothing. How long before we see impreza's with CF front clips, over a tube frame front end? Or other very wild combinations?
YOu couls also do nifty things like stick a 3L V6 TT in the back of a Civic and have a Mid/RWD car that puts out all the HP you can put down.... Now note that the tires are unrestriced as is the size of the flares. this means that if you need to you can run those monster dirt tires (given saftey approval) they run on outlaws.
With an influx of money there will be more and more creative solutions, and the rules WILL have to tighten up to keep the field safe, and to keep big money from siply buying the title. This is a simple fact in racing. This is why Nascar has such a restrictive rulebook, they want to keep the cars from being death traps, and *try* to make more than the 2-3 richest teams from being the only people at the front.
More importantly the rules regarding OTHER modifactions are next to nothing. How long before we see impreza's with CF front clips, over a tube frame front end? Or other very wild combinations?
YOu couls also do nifty things like stick a 3L V6 TT in the back of a Civic and have a Mid/RWD car that puts out all the HP you can put down.... Now note that the tires are unrestriced as is the size of the flares. this means that if you need to you can run those monster dirt tires (given saftey approval) they run on outlaws.
With an influx of money there will be more and more creative solutions, and the rules WILL have to tighten up to keep the field safe, and to keep big money from siply buying the title. This is a simple fact in racing. This is why Nascar has such a restrictive rulebook, they want to keep the cars from being death traps, and *try* to make more than the 2-3 richest teams from being the only people at the front.
| Jon Bogert | 05-16-2001 10:55 AM |
[quote]and the rules WILL have to tighten up ... to keep big money from siply buying the title.[/quote]
Unfortunately it's just the opposite. The big money teams will dictate rule changes specifically to prevent a creative privateer from building a car that can beat them. Subaru and Mitsubishi want nice Group N and WRC cars, because that's what they build and they're expensive enough to keep out the riff-raff. The last thing they want is some little guy coming along with a homebuilt 400HP Quattro, or a mid-engine AWD Civic [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img].
Unfortunately it's just the opposite. The big money teams will dictate rule changes specifically to prevent a creative privateer from building a car that can beat them. Subaru and Mitsubishi want nice Group N and WRC cars, because that's what they build and they're expensive enough to keep out the riff-raff. The last thing they want is some little guy coming along with a homebuilt 400HP Quattro, or a mid-engine AWD Civic [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img].
| XT6Wagon | 05-16-2001 02:09 PM |
Well, most often the rules are to keep the "playing field" level, but in rality EVERY rule makes the difference between the haves and have nots greater. Trust me it will not take SCCA long if you show up in a TT NSX powered RWD Civic to make sure that it doesn't have 600HP. So this "levels" the playing field but makes it more expensive to compete as you can't throw together a car like that anymore, and are forced to spend more trying to get your WRX faster than everyone elses WRX.
| Jon Bogert | 05-16-2001 03:36 PM |
rban, don't be discouraged! My cynicism only applies to the top levels. There is PLENTY of room to play competitively at the ClubRally level with whatever car you want. The only problem may be when semi-ProRallyists get squeezed out of the National level events, they'll be more competition at the club level.
XT6Wagon, the bottom line is that the manufacturers make (er, strongly influence) the rules, and it's just as important to them to control who they're seen with as it is to win. Bold prediction: you'll see the factory supported, but privately run, Hyundai team get squeezed in the near future--'cause there's not much marketing value for anyone in beating (not to mention losing to) a Hyundai.
XT6Wagon, the bottom line is that the manufacturers make (er, strongly influence) the rules, and it's just as important to them to control who they're seen with as it is to win. Bold prediction: you'll see the factory supported, but privately run, Hyundai team get squeezed in the near future--'cause there's not much marketing value for anyone in beating (not to mention losing to) a Hyundai.
| Greg Sharpe | 05-16-2001 11:38 PM |
Oh yeah, how is Hyudia going to deal with this influx of Evos and WRXs? Maybe a more dedicated factory effort with their other chassis, the Accent?
| rban | 05-17-2001 12:55 AM |
[i]Unfortunately it's just the opposite. The big money teams will dictate rule changes specifically to prevent a creative privateer from building a car that can beat them. Subaru and Mitsubishi want nice Group N and WRC cars, because that's what they build and they're expensive enough to keep out the riff-raff.[/i]
Ugh! That's not what I wanted to hear. . . I was hoping to get some finances in order within the next couple of years so that I could take a stab at driving. So will there be less opportunities for the privateer if/when FIA decides for another US event? Maybe I should just start selling all the extraneous crap around the house and buy a car already.
Who wants to buy a cat? [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
R
[This message has been edited by rban (edited May 16, 2001).]
Ugh! That's not what I wanted to hear. . . I was hoping to get some finances in order within the next couple of years so that I could take a stab at driving. So will there be less opportunities for the privateer if/when FIA decides for another US event? Maybe I should just start selling all the extraneous crap around the house and buy a car already.
Who wants to buy a cat? [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
R
[This message has been edited by rban (edited May 16, 2001).]
| damianq | 05-17-2001 02:54 AM |
You guys should just read the rule book. Then again, that might give you something else to argue about. Classes are divided to essentially differentiate the amt of money a person COULD spend to be competitve. It has been like that since class racing started. By NOT allowing this or that, a team must find other more cost effective ways of making power.
In racing this has always been true: To win you need power & skill, more power & skill than you competitors. Acheiving more power costs more money. If you cannot get more power [by rules or otherwise], get more skill. If you are unwilling to apply my skill, then don't go racing...
Heinz-Harold Frentzen told me that. I hope I spelled that right.
In racing this has always been true: To win you need power & skill, more power & skill than you competitors. Acheiving more power costs more money. If you cannot get more power [by rules or otherwise], get more skill. If you are unwilling to apply my skill, then don't go racing...
Heinz-Harold Frentzen told me that. I hope I spelled that right.
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