| makofoto | 02-12-2004 01:38 PM |
AutoX, ABS or No ABS?
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Last weekend I drove my first AutoX with the ABS fuse pulled. It was a bumpy course ... and I was told it was better to run without ABS.
It was the first time in MANY years driving without ABS ... and so I'm having to re-learn brake modulation ...
But on a smooth course ... would ABS have some things going for it?
It was the first time in MANY years driving without ABS ... and so I'm having to re-learn brake modulation ...
But on a smooth course ... would ABS have some things going for it?
| jmott | 02-12-2004 02:56 PM |
Re: AutoX, ABS or No ABS?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]Last weekend I drove my first AutoX with the ABS fuse pulled. It was a bumpy course ... and I was told it was better to run without ABS.
It was the first time in MANY years driving without ABS ... and so I'm having to re-learn brake modulation ...
But on a smooth course ... would ABS have some things going for it? [/B][/QUOTE]
the best autocross driver I know, Chris Ramey, seems to not really care whether or not its on.
which makes some sense, if you are capable of threshold braking, you want engage the ABS anyway.
other very good (but not as good as chris) autocrossers I know consider ABS to be a huge advantage.
[B]Last weekend I drove my first AutoX with the ABS fuse pulled. It was a bumpy course ... and I was told it was better to run without ABS.
It was the first time in MANY years driving without ABS ... and so I'm having to re-learn brake modulation ...
But on a smooth course ... would ABS have some things going for it? [/B][/QUOTE]
the best autocross driver I know, Chris Ramey, seems to not really care whether or not its on.
which makes some sense, if you are capable of threshold braking, you want engage the ABS anyway.
other very good (but not as good as chris) autocrossers I know consider ABS to be a huge advantage.
| BriDrive | 02-12-2004 03:13 PM |
Not to mention in many if not most auto-x courses the very best drivers are good LEFT foot brakers /trail brakers who rarely even use full braking.....
| leecea | 02-12-2004 04:03 PM |
If I make a mistake with braking, I'd rather have ABS kick in than flatspot an expensive R tire.
| Kostamojen | 02-12-2004 04:34 PM |
Ive only had ABS kick on once while autocrossing... It shouldnt really matter much, because you are SUPPOSED to only brake before the corner :p
| trhoppe | 02-12-2004 04:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive[/i]
[B] Not to mention in many if not most auto-x courses the very best drivers are good LEFT foot brakers /trail brakers who rarely even use full braking..... [/B][/QUOTE]
Riiiight. Get your facts right chief ;) Lots of great autox drivers break with their right foot :)
ABS is an advantage in the WRX. It saves you a lot of tires.
-Tom
[B] Not to mention in many if not most auto-x courses the very best drivers are good LEFT foot brakers /trail brakers who rarely even use full braking..... [/B][/QUOTE]
Riiiight. Get your facts right chief ;) Lots of great autox drivers break with their right foot :)
ABS is an advantage in the WRX. It saves you a lot of tires.
-Tom
| jmott | 02-12-2004 04:40 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Riiiight. Get your facts right chief ;) Lots of great autox drivers break with their right foot :)
ABS is an advantage in the WRX. It saves you a lot of tires.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
or break with their left foot but apply full braking force all the time =)
[B]Riiiight. Get your facts right chief ;) Lots of great autox drivers break with their right foot :)
ABS is an advantage in the WRX. It saves you a lot of tires.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
or break with their left foot but apply full braking force all the time =)
| nate49509 | 02-12-2004 04:43 PM |
On. I rarely feel the ABS kick in while auto-xing and when it does I'm usually glad it did. I've heard someone say before that nobody can modulate the brakes faster than ABS can.
| Watkinsm3 | 02-12-2004 04:46 PM |
I was an extreme threshold braker in my Integra as it's ABS was horrible and slow. I could trailbrake, left foot brake ( I am more of a right foot braker overall ) fine in the car as long as I NEVER touched the ABS.
The STi? I have yet to get it to an autox yet (they keep getting canceled on me :(), but I can tell you already the ABS feel incredible. Will I rely on it on course? No. Will I be upset if I [i]slip[/i] into it by mistake every now and then? no-at-all!
-Matt
The STi? I have yet to get it to an autox yet (they keep getting canceled on me :(), but I can tell you already the ABS feel incredible. Will I rely on it on course? No. Will I be upset if I [i]slip[/i] into it by mistake every now and then? no-at-all!
-Matt
| ITWRX4ME | 02-12-2004 04:47 PM |
Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking?
| Watkinsm3 | 02-12-2004 04:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by nate49509[/i]
[B] I've heard someone say before that nobody can modulate the brakes faster than ABS can. [/B][/QUOTE]
They never dove my Integra!! Seasons cycle faster than that car's ABS!!!
-Matt
[B] I've heard someone say before that nobody can modulate the brakes faster than ABS can. [/B][/QUOTE]
They never dove my Integra!! Seasons cycle faster than that car's ABS!!!
-Matt
| jmott | 02-12-2004 04:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ITWRX4ME [/i]
[B]Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking? [/B][/QUOTE]
yes
but how many people can threshold brake that well? I do not know.
[B]Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking? [/B][/QUOTE]
yes
but how many people can threshold brake that well? I do not know.
| Watkinsm3 | 02-12-2004 04:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ITWRX4ME[/i]
[B] Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking? [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm a step behind on these replies!
In theory perfect threshold braking will ALWAYS be better then ABS. With [i]perfect[/i] Threshold braking the wheels will NEVER lock. ABS Has to sense the lock and release the wheel. The good systems cycle really quick while maintaining balance. Nobody is perfect and with an average driver versus a good car? No contest... ABS will give better stopping distances.
-Matt
[B] Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking? [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm a step behind on these replies!
In theory perfect threshold braking will ALWAYS be better then ABS. With [i]perfect[/i] Threshold braking the wheels will NEVER lock. ABS Has to sense the lock and release the wheel. The good systems cycle really quick while maintaining balance. Nobody is perfect and with an average driver versus a good car? No contest... ABS will give better stopping distances.
-Matt
| nate49509 | 02-12-2004 04:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Watkinsm3 [/i]
[B]I'm a step behind on these replies!
In theory perfect threshold braking will ALWAYS be better then ABS. With [i]perfect[/i] Threshold braking the wheels will NEVER lock. ABS Has to sense the lock and release the wheel. The good systems cycle really quick while maintaining balance. Nobody is perfect and with an average driver versus a good car? No contest... ABS will give better stopping distances.
-Matt [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree very well said.
[B]I'm a step behind on these replies!
In theory perfect threshold braking will ALWAYS be better then ABS. With [i]perfect[/i] Threshold braking the wheels will NEVER lock. ABS Has to sense the lock and release the wheel. The good systems cycle really quick while maintaining balance. Nobody is perfect and with an average driver versus a good car? No contest... ABS will give better stopping distances.
-Matt [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree very well said.
| BriDrive | 02-12-2004 05:06 PM |
Errr....trhoppe.....I....uhhh.....don't want to jinx you....I'll wait to see the results out of Atlanta.....but......I'm bettin MK is gonna left foot beat you :lol:
Joking aside, I of course realize right footers are capable of as much speed....
Joking aside, I of course realize right footers are capable of as much speed....
| trhoppe | 02-12-2004 05:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive[/i]
[B] Errr....trhoppe.....I....uhhh.....don't want to jinx you....I'll wait to see the results out of Atlanta.....but......I'm bettin MK is gonna left foot beat you :lol:
Joking aside, I of course realize right footers are capable of as much speed.... [/B][/QUOTE]
Good Try there ;) I won't be in atlanta because the tranny blew, but it will be interesting to see if mikey can be on pace :)
-Tom
[B] Errr....trhoppe.....I....uhhh.....don't want to jinx you....I'll wait to see the results out of Atlanta.....but......I'm bettin MK is gonna left foot beat you :lol:
Joking aside, I of course realize right footers are capable of as much speed.... [/B][/QUOTE]
Good Try there ;) I won't be in atlanta because the tranny blew, but it will be interesting to see if mikey can be on pace :)
-Tom
| PKer | 02-12-2004 05:18 PM |
I think the WRX ABS is particularly sensitive and goes into ABS much too early.
I always disable ABS.
I always disable ABS.
| BriDrive | 02-12-2004 05:19 PM |
Oops, sorry about that...I did not know.......
| akuhner | 02-12-2004 05:40 PM |
Auto-X: ABS On
Rally-X: ABS Off (goes for any slippery surface)
Rally-X: ABS Off (goes for any slippery surface)
| leecea | 02-12-2004 07:19 PM |
[QUOTE]I think the WRX ABS is particularly sensitive and goes into ABS much too early.[/QUOTE]
My experience is that it only does that when you hit a bump under braking. I have certainly experienced that, but I've never had ABS kick in too early on flat tarmac.
I think the original poster talked about an autox course with bumpy corner approaches - that could be an interesting challenge!
My experience is that it only does that when you hit a bump under braking. I have certainly experienced that, but I've never had ABS kick in too early on flat tarmac.
I think the original poster talked about an autox course with bumpy corner approaches - that could be an interesting challenge!
| PKer | 02-12-2004 07:33 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by leecea [/i]
[B]My experience is that it only does that when you hit a bump under braking. I have certainly experienced that, but I've never had ABS kick in too early on flat tarmac.
I think the original poster talked about an autox course with bumpy corner approaches - that could be an interesting challenge! [/B][/QUOTE]
Good point.
As a matter of fact I drove the same course as Makofoto and there was a crest of sorts right bfore a dip and then a pretty hard left. It wasn't easy to wait for the car to settle after the dip and then brake. I locked em' up for a sec in that spot.:o
[B]My experience is that it only does that when you hit a bump under braking. I have certainly experienced that, but I've never had ABS kick in too early on flat tarmac.
I think the original poster talked about an autox course with bumpy corner approaches - that could be an interesting challenge! [/B][/QUOTE]
Good point.
As a matter of fact I drove the same course as Makofoto and there was a crest of sorts right bfore a dip and then a pretty hard left. It wasn't easy to wait for the car to settle after the dip and then brake. I locked em' up for a sec in that spot.:o
| Uber Wagon | 02-12-2004 07:33 PM |
So you mean to tell me all that trouble I went through to make an ABS cutoff switch was for nothing!?:o
| WRXIN | 02-12-2004 07:40 PM |
I've driven the course that Mako (original poster) is referring to. I usually run auto-x with the abs enabled but the surface he recently ran is rough and bumpy, has some small holes, and actually runs through some small "valleys", kind of like a big gentle gutter in the street. There's a tendency on this course to easily endup with a wheel in the air for a sec and that's where abs starts to be a problem. (Mako, maybe you can repost that pic you have with your wheel in the air in this thread, it'll give folks an idea of the the surface I'm trying to describe)
Anyhow, on this particular course, my abs kicks in way too much and ruins my left-foot braking efforts. I've read that on rough surfaces, abs can actually degrade braking distances, so that's why I suggested he pull the fuse.
Its all driver preference in the end. I left foot brake and trail brake and I have more success that way then using just my right foot for both gas and brake.
Lots of good points made in this thread. Thanks.
-Mark
Anyhow, on this particular course, my abs kicks in way too much and ruins my left-foot braking efforts. I've read that on rough surfaces, abs can actually degrade braking distances, so that's why I suggested he pull the fuse.
Its all driver preference in the end. I left foot brake and trail brake and I have more success that way then using just my right foot for both gas and brake.
Lots of good points made in this thread. Thanks.
-Mark
| makofoto | 02-12-2004 07:49 PM |
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v59/photos/4/43793/304279/MakoLiftingWheel-vi.jpg[/IMG]
This bump was at the exit of a corner ... but ... you get the idea ...
This bump was at the exit of a corner ... but ... you get the idea ...
| makofoto | 02-12-2004 08:06 PM |
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v54/photos/4/43793/304279/VWhop-vi.jpg[/IMG]
A better example from the same course ... very stiffely sprung VW ... pitching up after rebounding going through the "ditch." Of course I don't believe that VW had any ABS to worry about ....:)
See how low that car in the background is ... the "ditch" flows to that low point.
A better example from the same course ... very stiffely sprung VW ... pitching up after rebounding going through the "ditch." Of course I don't believe that VW had any ABS to worry about ....:)
See how low that car in the background is ... the "ditch" flows to that low point.
| PeterJ | 02-13-2004 06:52 PM |
makofoto
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Since you have an Impreza, I would say turn it off. Thats because our car's abs is overly sensitive and lets go too much when it kicks in. Having said that, if the course is fast and flowing, then leaving it on because it probably wont even kick in anyway. On a slower course with tight hairpin bends that reqire heavy use of the brakes to rotate the car, then turn it off. There is nothing worse than lift-turn-brake-brbrbrbrbr-understeer when it should be lift-turn-brake-countersteer-back on the gas.
I always turn my abs off becuase I think it helps me learn how to use the brakes (properly). The only time ever used abs during an autocross was in the pouring rain because I knew that having it off would be outside my driving ability. Also, if you picked up on my driving style while you were reading, then I would say that your own driving style would be a big part of your decision.
I always turn my abs off becuase I think it helps me learn how to use the brakes (properly). The only time ever used abs during an autocross was in the pouring rain because I knew that having it off would be outside my driving ability. Also, if you picked up on my driving style while you were reading, then I would say that your own driving style would be a big part of your decision.
| bcblues | 02-15-2004 10:54 AM |
I HATED the ABS in my WRX. It was far to sensitive, and would flake out when initiating hard braking on a rough track. The STi ABS system is far better, and I do not notice any good reason to deactivate it.
As far as "perfectly driven trail braking v ABS, it shouldn't matter to the "perfect" braking driver one iota, since he/she will never be activating the ABS anyway! If you DO happen to overcook a corner and have to explore the ragged edge of braking abilities, it is really nice to know that you will not lock up if you step on the binder a hair too hard. :cool:
As far as "perfectly driven trail braking v ABS, it shouldn't matter to the "perfect" braking driver one iota, since he/she will never be activating the ABS anyway! If you DO happen to overcook a corner and have to explore the ragged edge of braking abilities, it is really nice to know that you will not lock up if you step on the binder a hair too hard. :cool:
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