| fasteddie | 02-08-2006 03:17 PM |
Best race fuel for PGT WRX rally cah.
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Hi,
I have searched around and found out lots about reflashing ecus. Like from this thread. [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=864634&highlight=pgt+engine+management[/url]
Now, I want to know what kind of fuel I need to be running, before I go down to my local ECUTek tuning dudes. What do you guys and gals think? Yeah, it would be nice if it was legal, too. And it would be awfully nice if this rocket fuel were commonly available. The Rally-America rules say something about no lead, no MBTE, and some min. specific gravity. And what does this stuff cost?
Thanks in advance.
Ted Mendham
I have searched around and found out lots about reflashing ecus. Like from this thread. [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=864634&highlight=pgt+engine+management[/url]
Now, I want to know what kind of fuel I need to be running, before I go down to my local ECUTek tuning dudes. What do you guys and gals think? Yeah, it would be nice if it was legal, too. And it would be awfully nice if this rocket fuel were commonly available. The Rally-America rules say something about no lead, no MBTE, and some min. specific gravity. And what does this stuff cost?
Thanks in advance.
Ted Mendham
| fliz | 02-08-2006 03:26 PM |
I'm pretty sure the top teams use 100 octane.
Readily available from the Sunoco truck at any RA National event.
Readily available from the Sunoco truck at any RA National event.
| fasteddie | 02-08-2006 03:42 PM |
GT100 is that the stuff?
[url]http://www.racegas.com/fuelspecs/default.asp[/url]
Thanks!
[url]http://www.racegas.com/fuelspecs/default.asp[/url]
Thanks!
| Geek Guy | 02-08-2006 07:36 PM |
Make sure you read the latest thread on RA's forums regarding ACP's issues with fuel at Sno*Drift. Be *very* careful about what fuel you use now.
| crystalhelix | 02-08-2006 07:42 PM |
There are a couple different octance available from Sunoco GT, I think up to around 110 unleaded IIRC?
| thechickencow | 02-08-2006 08:21 PM |
Either find out what is availiable at the RA events, or find out what you can get/bring easily to the events.
If you have the means to buy/transport/dispense barrels of VP104 or something like that, tune it up and run that - there's guys who go that route vs. the sunoco stuff.
I never bought gas from them at the races, I always brought my own from home or just used 93 when I'd tuned to that.
If you have the means to buy/transport/dispense barrels of VP104 or something like that, tune it up and run that - there's guys who go that route vs. the sunoco stuff.
I never bought gas from them at the races, I always brought my own from home or just used 93 when I'd tuned to that.
| bjorn240 | 02-08-2006 09:21 PM |
Sunoco GT100 with Ethanol is legal under Rally America rules.
- Christian
- Christian
| fasteddie | 02-09-2006 08:42 AM |
Oh yeah, I read about ACP's Sno*Drift controversy.
At the end of the day, he kept his win and was running the same stuff at the next event, which was run under Canadian rules.
Someone once told me "there are two kinds of rallyists, cheaters and losers. Which one are you?"
That pretty much sums up my take on the Sno*Drift controversy. ;-) I have a stock steering box, stock 1/2 shafts, stock diffs, stock tranny,a rear bumper and a fuel test port, blah, blah, blah and now can expect a parc ferme tear down at STPR, if I get lucky enough to do well. Brilliant!
ACP runs an open class car. I assume it is at a higher level of tune, than what I will need in PGT.
It sounds like some people will go to some extra trouble to run fuel that is over 100 octane.
Or can I get some benefit just remapping the ECU and running 93 octane street fuel?
I also saw a Canadian P4 WRX team running a mix of 93/and some race fuel at the last event.
It's all food for thought, I think.
Thanks,
Ted
At the end of the day, he kept his win and was running the same stuff at the next event, which was run under Canadian rules.
Someone once told me "there are two kinds of rallyists, cheaters and losers. Which one are you?"
That pretty much sums up my take on the Sno*Drift controversy. ;-) I have a stock steering box, stock 1/2 shafts, stock diffs, stock tranny,a rear bumper and a fuel test port, blah, blah, blah and now can expect a parc ferme tear down at STPR, if I get lucky enough to do well. Brilliant!
ACP runs an open class car. I assume it is at a higher level of tune, than what I will need in PGT.
It sounds like some people will go to some extra trouble to run fuel that is over 100 octane.
Or can I get some benefit just remapping the ECU and running 93 octane street fuel?
I also saw a Canadian P4 WRX team running a mix of 93/and some race fuel at the last event.
It's all food for thought, I think.
Thanks,
Ted
| RB5 Clone | 02-09-2006 10:28 AM |
race gas will cost $8 a gallon maybe more. you know your stage /transit mileage and can do the math (ouch!) $$$$$$
you can't transport race gas in the more economical metal mini-barrels (legally, anyway), and buying it in smaller quatities costs still more $$$$$
when we ran J's car on race gas, it was awesome on stage but awesomely expensive $$$$$
my car is tuned to run on 93-94 octane pump gas, and it seems to run just fine, thank you. rz's car is, too.
you can do the same with your PGT Rex, tune the ECU for running pump premium and save yourself enough $ to pay part of the travel costs getting to a race.
let your right foot do the talking, instead of your wallet ;)
Dave G
[url]www.lastditchracing.net[/url]
you can't transport race gas in the more economical metal mini-barrels (legally, anyway), and buying it in smaller quatities costs still more $$$$$
when we ran J's car on race gas, it was awesome on stage but awesomely expensive $$$$$
my car is tuned to run on 93-94 octane pump gas, and it seems to run just fine, thank you. rz's car is, too.
you can do the same with your PGT Rex, tune the ECU for running pump premium and save yourself enough $ to pay part of the travel costs getting to a race.
let your right foot do the talking, instead of your wallet ;)
Dave G
[url]www.lastditchracing.net[/url]
| fasteddie | 02-09-2006 12:28 PM |
Dave,
I have thought about that. Definitely more cost and more hassle. Although, I have found Sunoco GT100 in Nashua. And I may not be able to fill up just anywhere on the side of the road once I get all tuned up for rocket fuel. And the car would run good enough for me on pump gas, with an Accessport and without that damn 32mm restrictor.
Ted
(just a dumb, old boost addict, i guess)
I have thought about that. Definitely more cost and more hassle. Although, I have found Sunoco GT100 in Nashua. And I may not be able to fill up just anywhere on the side of the road once I get all tuned up for rocket fuel. And the car would run good enough for me on pump gas, with an Accessport and without that damn 32mm restrictor.
Ted
(just a dumb, old boost addict, i guess)
| JC_595 | 02-09-2006 04:10 PM |
we used Cam2 (sunoco gt100) at the only rally we had an ecu upgrade in our PGT WRX (LSPR). Paid $4.50-ish /gal for it in SE MI last fall. Legal & worked good for us with the dyno tune & borrowed UTEC piggyback.
Too bad I didnt hold my foot down harder.
However I must say the 20hp & 30+ ftlb difference made the car WAy more fun to drive.
Too bad I didnt hold my foot down harder.
However I must say the 20hp & 30+ ftlb difference made the car WAy more fun to drive.
| fasteddie | 02-10-2006 09:45 AM |
Power corrupts, absolutely, eh!
| JC_595 | 02-10-2006 01:03 PM |
Yes it does Ted.
Problem was, I didnt have the dough to keep it up when I went into the trees.
And as we both know, that's part of the deal. I had forgotten that.
The new chassis is being built to take that into the equation.
Problem was, I didnt have the dough to keep it up when I went into the trees.
And as we both know, that's part of the deal. I had forgotten that.
The new chassis is being built to take that into the equation.
| JC_595 | 02-10-2006 01:06 PM |
of course- there is nothing like being able to throw the car into a corner at 50-ish & know that it'll pull you out if your a little too hot. That's where you can get over yer head.
Keeping the ECU stock on the AWD or keeping with limitied traction in 2wd helps keep that part in perspective a little better I think.
Keeping the ECU stock on the AWD or keeping with limitied traction in 2wd helps keep that part in perspective a little better I think.
| fasteddie | 02-10-2006 01:29 PM |
I think I have proven, on several occasions, that I can hit trees with an underpowered 2WD car. But,
the WRX certainly churns better through the deep snow.
Peter Watt saw our new car and immediately asked how many tow straps I was carrying. I only had one. I think he was trying to say that I should be able to put the new car off much deeper into the woods than the old one. ;-)
Another dumb WRX newbie question. Will an Ecutek in an otherwise stock WRX support ALS?
Thanks,
Ted
the WRX certainly churns better through the deep snow.
Peter Watt saw our new car and immediately asked how many tow straps I was carrying. I only had one. I think he was trying to say that I should be able to put the new car off much deeper into the woods than the old one. ;-)
Another dumb WRX newbie question. Will an Ecutek in an otherwise stock WRX support ALS?
Thanks,
Ted
| JC_595 | 02-10-2006 05:15 PM |
I dont think The ECUtek does ALS.
Email Pat. I know the Link does, but I dont think the ECUtek does.
Are you running Open or GN? Otherwise you would not be "legal" to run ALS.
PGT ALS is a no-no. (although I have "heard" that someone with a quick rack has used it before. keep in mind that is total hearsay. If so it sure didnt help his stage times)
THe top guys right now I believe are running ECUtek reflashes with GT100 or mixing 100 & 94 pump gas. I would suggest either buying an off the shelf ECUtek from Pat & running 100. It will be the most torque you will get with the easiest effort.
OR run only Canadian event & run the link with ALS from Pat, which would be even better. But dont expect to run that legally in an RA event unless some rules change.
Email Pat. I know the Link does, but I dont think the ECUtek does.
Are you running Open or GN? Otherwise you would not be "legal" to run ALS.
PGT ALS is a no-no. (although I have "heard" that someone with a quick rack has used it before. keep in mind that is total hearsay. If so it sure didnt help his stage times)
THe top guys right now I believe are running ECUtek reflashes with GT100 or mixing 100 & 94 pump gas. I would suggest either buying an off the shelf ECUtek from Pat & running 100. It will be the most torque you will get with the easiest effort.
OR run only Canadian event & run the link with ALS from Pat, which would be even better. But dont expect to run that legally in an RA event unless some rules change.
| JC_595 | 02-10-2006 05:18 PM |
PS- I am not a huge fan of ALS. Anything that pushes the throttle down when you lift your foot scares me. That's gotta take some getting used to.
Do you really need that? I bet you could really work on other things to improve your times before doing that.
I know I sure could
Do you really need that? I bet you could really work on other things to improve your times before doing that.
I know I sure could
| fasteddie | 02-13-2006 08:27 AM |
ALS Illegal in RA PGT?
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I didn't realize ALS was illegal in RA PGT. Time to get out the rulebook.
And, I have heard it is hard on the turbo and associated exhaust components, but if it gets you out of every corner better than it merits consideration.
I guess the hard mid corner left foot braking is the poor man's answer to keeping the snail spooled.
And, I have heard it is hard on the turbo and associated exhaust components, but if it gets you out of every corner better than it merits consideration.
I guess the hard mid corner left foot braking is the poor man's answer to keeping the snail spooled.
| M. Hurst | 02-13-2006 08:43 AM |
[QUOTE=fasteddie]I didn't realize ALS was illegal in RA PGT. Time to get out the rulebook.
[/QUOTE]
ALS is not illegal in RA PGT. There are no restrictions on ECU software.
You may not, however, legally add a throttle kicker to aid the ALS.
[/QUOTE]
ALS is not illegal in RA PGT. There are no restrictions on ECU software.
You may not, however, legally add a throttle kicker to aid the ALS.
| fasteddie | 02-13-2006 09:03 AM |
Thanks Mike,
That was quicker than a Acrobat download.
Ted
That was quicker than a Acrobat download.
Ted
| M. Hurst | 02-13-2006 09:14 AM |
[url]http://www.rally-america.com/info/2005_Bulletins/Rule_Bulletin_2005_008.pdf[/url]
2005 bulletin #8 is vague enough to make any ECU protest ineffective, and I believe you'll soon see the requirement for having the stock ECU go away soon also. Canadian PGT and FIA group N allow any ECU as long as it plugs into the stock harness.
The reason is that the hardware / sensors are enforceable issues, the software is not enforceable in a practical manner.
2005 bulletin #8 is vague enough to make any ECU protest ineffective, and I believe you'll soon see the requirement for having the stock ECU go away soon also. Canadian PGT and FIA group N allow any ECU as long as it plugs into the stock harness.
The reason is that the hardware / sensors are enforceable issues, the software is not enforceable in a practical manner.
| LyveWRX | 02-13-2006 09:28 AM |
there are things that can be done with timing and fuelling that will get more boost quicker but without the throttle kicker there may not be enough air to get any large effect.
| fasteddie | 02-13-2006 10:14 AM |
Thanks again everyone.
I really appreciate the info.
Ted
I really appreciate the info.
Ted
| Chromer | 02-13-2006 10:26 AM |
[QUOTE=LyveWRX]there are things that can be done with timing and fuelling that will get more boost quicker but without the throttle kicker there may not be enough air to get any large effect.[/QUOTE]
Is the logic for the idle air control reprogrammable via a reflash?
Is the logic for the idle air control reprogrammable via a reflash?
| JC_595 | 02-13-2006 01:10 PM |
WHy is all the cool stuff happening AFTER I leave PGT? more money, more people cooler rules people finally getting called out for cheating...
That means you can run a Link soon now Ted. That is the way to go. Standalone P&P. Forget the stock ECU. See Pat for the Link & go Link with ALS if you want the most power.
Of course, you are correct- more wear & tear. But FASTER / more torque.
That's cool.
Damn horses. :mad:
I just hope I can run some close times with the new chassis to you PGT fellers. That'll make me feel better. Maybe throw some gravel at the control workers...
That means you can run a Link soon now Ted. That is the way to go. Standalone P&P. Forget the stock ECU. See Pat for the Link & go Link with ALS if you want the most power.
Of course, you are correct- more wear & tear. But FASTER / more torque.
That's cool.
Damn horses. :mad:
I just hope I can run some close times with the new chassis to you PGT fellers. That'll make me feel better. Maybe throw some gravel at the control workers...
| patr | 02-13-2006 01:38 PM |
you can run the idle air controller without a throttle kicker solenoid in almost any ECU. You can have poor mans ALS with a reflash, but without electronics, you dont have the real deal without an ECU that is properly set up for it. You dont need a throttle kicker solenoid to run ALS. You need an ECU that knows when to stop retarding (i.e. when you get back on the gas). You can just run a fixed throttle stop and be done with it. Or 100% IAC for less agressive. Some guys also use the cruise motor, which is also legal IMHO in USA pGT. And you dont need regs changed to run a standalone ecu, if you make a piggyback harness. But really, a reflash will do you fine unless you want true ALS, fixed timing and a map based system (better for some things, not for others).
Fuel makes a difference, run the best you can. IC cooling is the most effective thing you can do so dont heat soak the car before stage (unlike 95% of most competitors, revving it in full antilag prior to sitting at the start line is not the way to go).
Fuel makes a difference, run the best you can. IC cooling is the most effective thing you can do so dont heat soak the car before stage (unlike 95% of most competitors, revving it in full antilag prior to sitting at the start line is not the way to go).
| fasteddie | 02-14-2006 08:34 AM |
Thanks Pat. Everything you posted was very educational, IMVHO. And the intercooler heatsoak thing explains what I was seeing from you and Stig (I think) last year at stage starts. I thought you guys were trying to save some equipment. I think I just watch WRC on TV and figured 'ya had to be bouncing off the rev limiter for a while if you want to be cool.
Looking for a spare ECU to send for a reflash.
Ted
Looking for a spare ECU to send for a reflash.
Ted
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