| deluxsti | 05-19-2006 11:44 AM |
better autox car, evo or sti?
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this may be the wrong section, so mods move it if you need to.
in the national events, or larger events, which car tends to do better, the evo or sti? im having trouble deciding what i want. people are saying that the evo is doing everything better than the sti, except its ugly and the interior (save for the seats, mmmm) seems to be made from recycled soda bottles.
but my thought is that it really doesnt matter how they do stock for stock because the car i buy wont be stock for long, so that is irrelevant. and i will be using the car for mainly autocross and a few HPDE's
any thoughts?
in the national events, or larger events, which car tends to do better, the evo or sti? im having trouble deciding what i want. people are saying that the evo is doing everything better than the sti, except its ugly and the interior (save for the seats, mmmm) seems to be made from recycled soda bottles.
but my thought is that it really doesnt matter how they do stock for stock because the car i buy wont be stock for long, so that is irrelevant. and i will be using the car for mainly autocross and a few HPDE's
any thoughts?
| Skibum4444 | 05-19-2006 11:47 AM |
evo :D
| Chiketkd | 05-19-2006 11:52 AM |
wrx/sti :)
| Chuck H | 05-19-2006 11:57 AM |
[QUOTE=deluxsti]this may be the wrong section, so mods move it if you need to.
in the national events, or larger events, which car tends to do better, the evo or sti? im having trouble deciding what i want. people are saying that the evo is doing everything better than the sti, except its ugly and the interior (save for the seats, mmmm) seems to be made from recycled soda bottles.
but my thought is that it really doesnt matter how they do stock for stock because the car i buy wont be stock for long, so that is irrelevant. and i will be using the car for mainly autocross and a few HPDE's
any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Not a hard-core autocrosser, but I'm guessing that the real answer is going to be "neither". If you're into the modding scene, you're probably going to very quickly mod the car at least to SM specs, if not an even higher class. And I don't believe that either the Evo or STi stands a chance in that class or any of the prepared classes against lighter more powerful RWD cars.
In STX, either one should be competitive, but as soon as you do anything to the boost map, you're out of that class, and very few people have the self-control to mod a whole bunch of stuff and not tweak the boost control to take advantage of the new-found airflow. ;)
Either car is going to make a great daily driver and HPDE car, but I don't think either one is the ultimate auto-x car, if that's your main reason for getting one.
in the national events, or larger events, which car tends to do better, the evo or sti? im having trouble deciding what i want. people are saying that the evo is doing everything better than the sti, except its ugly and the interior (save for the seats, mmmm) seems to be made from recycled soda bottles.
but my thought is that it really doesnt matter how they do stock for stock because the car i buy wont be stock for long, so that is irrelevant. and i will be using the car for mainly autocross and a few HPDE's
any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Not a hard-core autocrosser, but I'm guessing that the real answer is going to be "neither". If you're into the modding scene, you're probably going to very quickly mod the car at least to SM specs, if not an even higher class. And I don't believe that either the Evo or STi stands a chance in that class or any of the prepared classes against lighter more powerful RWD cars.
In STX, either one should be competitive, but as soon as you do anything to the boost map, you're out of that class, and very few people have the self-control to mod a whole bunch of stuff and not tweak the boost control to take advantage of the new-found airflow. ;)
Either car is going to make a great daily driver and HPDE car, but I don't think either one is the ultimate auto-x car, if that's your main reason for getting one.
| deluxsti | 05-19-2006 12:09 PM |
BSP now allows boost control, and that is the class i will (and currently) run in.
there is one sti locally driven by Dana Jacobsen that usually gets top time of day and runs in BSP, but none of the local evo guys run autox, they all do drag which is a waste for that car.
also, im not looking for the ultimate autocross car, i want something fast that can compete in BSP.
there is one sti locally driven by Dana Jacobsen that usually gets top time of day and runs in BSP, but none of the local evo guys run autox, they all do drag which is a waste for that car.
also, im not looking for the ultimate autocross car, i want something fast that can compete in BSP.
| WRXRATED7 | 05-19-2006 12:12 PM |
[QUOTE=Chuck H]
In STX, either one should be competitive, but as soon as you do anything to the boost map, you're out of that class, and very few people have the self-control to mod a whole bunch of stuff and not tweak the boost control to take advantage of the new-found airflow. ;)
[/QUOTE]
[B]STU[/B]. I think both cars are very competitive in this class. You can do some mods and still have a very good daily driver if that's what you're looking for. :D I'd like to run STU myself because the STi isn't competitive in AS. Well...nationally anyway. Locally I can mop up. :lol:
In STX, either one should be competitive, but as soon as you do anything to the boost map, you're out of that class, and very few people have the self-control to mod a whole bunch of stuff and not tweak the boost control to take advantage of the new-found airflow. ;)
[/QUOTE]
[B]STU[/B]. I think both cars are very competitive in this class. You can do some mods and still have a very good daily driver if that's what you're looking for. :D I'd like to run STU myself because the STi isn't competitive in AS. Well...nationally anyway. Locally I can mop up. :lol:
| Chiketkd | 05-19-2006 01:34 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXRATED7]I'd like to run STU myself because the STi isn't competitive in AS. Well...nationally anyway. Locally I can mop up. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Correct. Nationally, the S2000 and C4 Corvettes are very competitive in that class.
Correct. Nationally, the S2000 and C4 Corvettes are very competitive in that class.
| trhoppe | 05-19-2006 01:45 PM |
Looking at your vehicle, you have a 30-R and a block. BSP is for stock turbos and stock(ish) motors.
-Tom
-Tom
| AndrewSS | 05-19-2006 01:57 PM |
stock class evo vs. sti ... I suppose the Evo RS would do good... but I dunno, as you get into the classes where you can mod the cars I say its more what you have done for the car and other variables, there isnt really "a" answer to this question... fwiw it has been my experience that there are far more subies involved in autox than Evo's... but those are my local observations, so like I said - its just my observations.
| TubeDriver | 05-19-2006 02:43 PM |
Right now in the Washington DC SCCA region, Bouchon is first in overall points with an 05 STI (on crappy 255 Victoracers no less). Granted that is only after 2 events but he is stomping on EVOs, S2000s with Hoosiers and V710s. I think he will be on V710s (275s) soon which should help a bit eh?
AS is probably the most competetive class in the DC SCCA region with some very fast drivers in well prepared cars (averages about ~20 AS cars per event).
AS is probably the most competetive class in the DC SCCA region with some very fast drivers in well prepared cars (averages about ~20 AS cars per event).
| Chiketkd | 05-19-2006 02:45 PM |
[QUOTE=AndrewSS]fwiw it has been my experience that there are far more subies involved in autox than Evo's... but those are my local observations, so like I said - its just my observations.[/QUOTE]
+1 At events in my SCCA region (Blue Ridge) as well as a few I've attended @ Fedex in Wash, DC definitely more wrx/sti's competing than evo's.
FYI, if you plan to autoX an Evo in a stock class, better kiss your factory warranty farewell. ;) (obviously the warranty would be gone in a modified class)
+1 At events in my SCCA region (Blue Ridge) as well as a few I've attended @ Fedex in Wash, DC definitely more wrx/sti's competing than evo's.
FYI, if you plan to autoX an Evo in a stock class, better kiss your factory warranty farewell. ;) (obviously the warranty would be gone in a modified class)
| deluxsti | 05-19-2006 04:23 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Looking at your vehicle, you have a 30-R and a block. BSP is for stock turbos and stock(ish) motors.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
that car is sold
i have seen 2 evo's autocross and my e36 m3 was faster than both, but i am on hoosiers and they were both on RA1's, but locally the top times of the day for last events were from an 04 sti with 275 710's with another e36 right behind it in bsp.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
that car is sold
i have seen 2 evo's autocross and my e36 m3 was faster than both, but i am on hoosiers and they were both on RA1's, but locally the top times of the day for last events were from an 04 sti with 275 710's with another e36 right behind it in bsp.
| Impreza01 | 05-19-2006 04:33 PM |
[QUOTE=AndrewSS]fwiw it has been my experience that there are far more subies involved in autox than Evo's... but those are my local observations, so like I said - its just my observations.[/QUOTE]
That's because it's well-known on the Evo boards that Mitsubishi sends district managers to write down license plates and VINs to void warranties. I'm not kidding about this. Just go to forums.evolutionm.net and check it out.
That's because it's well-known on the Evo boards that Mitsubishi sends district managers to write down license plates and VINs to void warranties. I'm not kidding about this. Just go to forums.evolutionm.net and check it out.
| Butt Dyno | 05-19-2006 04:34 PM |
[QUOTE=AndrewSS]fwiw it has been my experience that there are far more subies involved in autox than Evo's... but those are my local observations, so like I said - its just my observations.[/QUOTE]The Evos are either on the dyno or at the drag strip... duh! :)
Anecdotally I would have to agree - last HPDE I went to, there were 12 WRX/STi's in the paddock... only one Evo. They come out to the Mach V track day at Summit every year, but in general they are outnumbered by Subarus at anything resembling a motorsports event.
john
Anecdotally I would have to agree - last HPDE I went to, there were 12 WRX/STi's in the paddock... only one Evo. They come out to the Mach V track day at Summit every year, but in general they are outnumbered by Subarus at anything resembling a motorsports event.
john
| IntensePower | 05-19-2006 04:40 PM |
what is comes down to is driver skill. you can have the best set up car in the world, it wouldn't make a difference if you get out driven.
| jamesohoh7 | 05-19-2006 04:47 PM |
[QUOTE=Impreza01]That's because it's well-known on the Evo boards that Mitsubishi sends district managers to write down license plates and VINs to void warranties. I'm not kidding about this. Just go to forums.evolutionm.net and check it out.[/QUOTE]
which is odd b/c so many Evo's go to the drag strip and -really- flog their cars.
It's true I guess: Mitsubitchy sucks as a company... a company that (apparently*) looks the other way at the drag strip (ab)use of a car designed to turn more than go straight, and then penalyzes those cars used to turn instead of go straight, is just whack.
*I say apparently b/c you see throngs of them at the drags, and so 'The Devil' (as they call it) must not care, right??
which is odd b/c so many Evo's go to the drag strip and -really- flog their cars.
It's true I guess: Mitsubitchy sucks as a company... a company that (apparently*) looks the other way at the drag strip (ab)use of a car designed to turn more than go straight, and then penalyzes those cars used to turn instead of go straight, is just whack.
*I say apparently b/c you see throngs of them at the drags, and so 'The Devil' (as they call it) must not care, right??
| Joshw | 05-19-2006 04:54 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno]The Evos are either on the dyno or at the drag strip... duh! :)
Anecdotally I would have to agree - last HPDE I went to, there were 12 WRX/STi's in the paddock... only one Evo. They come out to the Mach V track day at Summit every year, but in general they are outnumbered by Subarus at anything resembling a motorsports event.
john[/QUOTE]
Remember, the number of evos on the road is only a fraction of the number of sti's or wrx's. I would expect to see them in numbers that are FAR lower than the subies....looking at north american rally, subies out number evos by a factor of 10 even when you include the the grey-market right hand drive units that all of the newyorkers import.
There simply aren't very many evos...Not because they aren't as good but because they were POORLY MARKETED in the US.
Anecdotally I would have to agree - last HPDE I went to, there were 12 WRX/STi's in the paddock... only one Evo. They come out to the Mach V track day at Summit every year, but in general they are outnumbered by Subarus at anything resembling a motorsports event.
john[/QUOTE]
Remember, the number of evos on the road is only a fraction of the number of sti's or wrx's. I would expect to see them in numbers that are FAR lower than the subies....looking at north american rally, subies out number evos by a factor of 10 even when you include the the grey-market right hand drive units that all of the newyorkers import.
There simply aren't very many evos...Not because they aren't as good but because they were POORLY MARKETED in the US.
| Funky | 05-19-2006 05:59 PM |
[QUOTE=Impreza01]That's because it's well-known on the Evo boards that Mitsubishi sends district managers to write down license plates and VINs to void warranties. I'm not kidding about this. Just go to forums.evolutionm.net and check it out.[/QUOTE]
I can personally vouch for that. My mother-in-law was dating a service manager at the local Mitsu dealership(briefly). He told me he goes to the Friday-night drags at PIR and gets buddy-buddy with the Evo guys. He takes pictures of their cars (with the license plates in view) and keeps them all on his computer at the service department of the dealership. Whenever an Evo comes in for warranty work they check it against his database of drag racers for the express purpose of denying warranty claims. He was gloating as he told me this and seemed quite proud of himself.
Going to the drags to take pictures of Evos was actually part of his job. It seems he isn't the only person from a Mitsu dealership who has done this type of thing, so I doubt it is an entirely voluntary activity for the dealers. They have likely been 'encouraged' by Mitsubishi to keep tabs on this type of activity to save on warranty claims.
Now, to give the benefit of the doubt... It's quite possible that Mitsubishi wanted them to do this in response to the seeming high failure-rate of clutches and transfer-cases. Perhaps they were investigating the failures to find out if there was a problem with the durability of the parts under 'normal' operating conditions, or if it was the result of 'abuse'. *cough* Yea, right.
...to get back on topic for the thread... I've found the cars to be very close in AutoX. The STi in general seems to do better with slower courses. Once you get to a higher-speed (nationals-type) course that requires hitting 3rd in the STi, it can go either way. In either case it comes down to driver, really.
I can personally vouch for that. My mother-in-law was dating a service manager at the local Mitsu dealership(briefly). He told me he goes to the Friday-night drags at PIR and gets buddy-buddy with the Evo guys. He takes pictures of their cars (with the license plates in view) and keeps them all on his computer at the service department of the dealership. Whenever an Evo comes in for warranty work they check it against his database of drag racers for the express purpose of denying warranty claims. He was gloating as he told me this and seemed quite proud of himself.
Going to the drags to take pictures of Evos was actually part of his job. It seems he isn't the only person from a Mitsu dealership who has done this type of thing, so I doubt it is an entirely voluntary activity for the dealers. They have likely been 'encouraged' by Mitsubishi to keep tabs on this type of activity to save on warranty claims.
Now, to give the benefit of the doubt... It's quite possible that Mitsubishi wanted them to do this in response to the seeming high failure-rate of clutches and transfer-cases. Perhaps they were investigating the failures to find out if there was a problem with the durability of the parts under 'normal' operating conditions, or if it was the result of 'abuse'. *cough* Yea, right.
...to get back on topic for the thread... I've found the cars to be very close in AutoX. The STi in general seems to do better with slower courses. Once you get to a higher-speed (nationals-type) course that requires hitting 3rd in the STi, it can go either way. In either case it comes down to driver, really.
| crystalhelix | 05-19-2006 10:52 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Looking at your vehicle, you have a 30-R and a block. BSP is for stock turbos and stock(ish) motors.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Party pooper..
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Party pooper..
| WRXedUSA | 05-19-2006 11:29 PM |
STU baby. That's were the STi eats other cars' lunches.
Though, the new MIVEC equipped EVO9's are doing a good job compensating for the lost torque in the Evo8 and earlier MR's where the STi held the advantage.
I still believe the STi is still the car to have for STU but there will be a certian white EVO9 MR that will be at nationals that should be watched veddy veddy closely.
Though, the new MIVEC equipped EVO9's are doing a good job compensating for the lost torque in the Evo8 and earlier MR's where the STi held the advantage.
I still believe the STi is still the car to have for STU but there will be a certian white EVO9 MR that will be at nationals that should be watched veddy veddy closely.
| zzyzx | 05-20-2006 12:24 AM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA]I still believe the STi is still the car to have for STU but there will be a certian white EVO9 MR that will be at nationals that should be watched veddy veddy closely.[/QUOTE]
:devil:
I think since torque is so important in autox, the STi has an advantage in that respect. I also think the center diff on the STi does a good job.
The Evo, however, has more inherent balance and a steering rack that the STi can't match. MIVEC helps a great deal with the torque issue, also.
Let's just say it'll probably be pretty interesting this year.
:devil:
I think since torque is so important in autox, the STi has an advantage in that respect. I also think the center diff on the STi does a good job.
The Evo, however, has more inherent balance and a steering rack that the STi can't match. MIVEC helps a great deal with the torque issue, also.
Let's just say it'll probably be pretty interesting this year.
| 10th Warrior | 05-20-2006 11:45 AM |
[quote]looking at north american rally, subies out number evos by a factor of 10 even when you include the the grey-market right hand drive units that all of the newyorkers import.[/quote]
Subaru pays decent money in RA and has the support truck (thanks for the ball joint, SoA :D ), whereas Mitsubishi has nothing.
Subaru pays decent money in RA and has the support truck (thanks for the ball joint, SoA :D ), whereas Mitsubishi has nothing.
| ChrisW | 05-20-2006 09:29 PM |
[QUOTE=zzyzx]:devil:
I think since torque is so important in autox, the STi has an advantage in that respect. I also think the center diff on the STi does a good job.
The Evo, however, has more inherent balance and a steering rack that the STi can't match. MIVEC helps a great deal with the torque issue, also.
Let's just say it'll probably be pretty interesting this year.[/QUOTE]
In my region, I don't have any STI's to directly compete against in SM. There are a few EVO's in BSP, several STI's in STU.
At the atwater nationals this year, BSP was predictable,
the corvettes and s2000's cleaned up, but the EVO's beat out the sole STI entry.
In STU, the best placed EVO was a stock RS ( I think it was stock) driven by Navid, the BMW's basically dominated, with some pretty resonably prepped STI's taking 3rd and 5th.
[url="http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268"]http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268[/url]
I think since torque is so important in autox, the STi has an advantage in that respect. I also think the center diff on the STi does a good job.
The Evo, however, has more inherent balance and a steering rack that the STi can't match. MIVEC helps a great deal with the torque issue, also.
Let's just say it'll probably be pretty interesting this year.[/QUOTE]
In my region, I don't have any STI's to directly compete against in SM. There are a few EVO's in BSP, several STI's in STU.
At the atwater nationals this year, BSP was predictable,
the corvettes and s2000's cleaned up, but the EVO's beat out the sole STI entry.
In STU, the best placed EVO was a stock RS ( I think it was stock) driven by Navid, the BMW's basically dominated, with some pretty resonably prepped STI's taking 3rd and 5th.
[url="http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268"]http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268[/url]
| wm07 | 05-21-2006 12:58 AM |
Hey Chris, that evo is not stock. It has coilovers with Ground Control camber plates (caster and camber adjustable.) Not sure what else it has however, but I recall it has catback at least...
| deluxsti | 05-21-2006 01:50 AM |
well, after what the two evo's and sti's did at todays autocross here, i may as well keep my m3. hmm, maybe it was just driver error
| WRXedUSA | 05-21-2006 02:19 AM |
[QUOTE=ChrisW]In my region, I don't have any STI's to directly compete against in SM. There are a few EVO's in BSP, several STI's in STU.
At the atwater nationals this year, BSP was predictable,
the corvettes and s2000's cleaned up, but the EVO's beat out the sole STI entry.
In STU, the best placed EVO was a stock RS ( I think it was stock) driven by Navid, the BMW's basically dominated, with some pretty resonably prepped STI's taking 3rd and 5th.
[url="http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268"]http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268[/url][/QUOTE]
Most STI's run AS, STU and ESP.
AS is a good baseline measure between evo-sti, but when you get into STU, you have to deal with the BMW's.
I run STU yet AS legal.
I don't know of many Evo drivers running competitivly in the first place other than what I mentioned in precvious posts.
Yeah, it comes down to driver. For example, I'm the probably fastest bone stock STi AS legal driver in the area, and I beat out EVO's left and right. Yet, the Evo9 is MUCH more capable, and is faster by a second on a 35 second course by a 10+yr driver.
Right SteveO? ;)
At the atwater nationals this year, BSP was predictable,
the corvettes and s2000's cleaned up, but the EVO's beat out the sole STI entry.
In STU, the best placed EVO was a stock RS ( I think it was stock) driven by Navid, the BMW's basically dominated, with some pretty resonably prepped STI's taking 3rd and 5th.
[url="http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268"]http://www.scca.org/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=268[/url][/QUOTE]
Most STI's run AS, STU and ESP.
AS is a good baseline measure between evo-sti, but when you get into STU, you have to deal with the BMW's.
I run STU yet AS legal.
I don't know of many Evo drivers running competitivly in the first place other than what I mentioned in precvious posts.
Yeah, it comes down to driver. For example, I'm the probably fastest bone stock STi AS legal driver in the area, and I beat out EVO's left and right. Yet, the Evo9 is MUCH more capable, and is faster by a second on a 35 second course by a 10+yr driver.
Right SteveO? ;)
| eddie1982 | 05-21-2006 02:30 AM |
STI's all the way
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-21-2006 10:47 AM |
I'm biased but... :D
Stock vs Stock - driver's race.
Modded...the Evo's seemed to do better last year (re: ESP Nat'l results)
However, I think again, even modded, it would come down to level of prep and driver.
Stock vs Stock - driver's race.
Modded...the Evo's seemed to do better last year (re: ESP Nat'l results)
However, I think again, even modded, it would come down to level of prep and driver.
| ChrisW | 05-21-2006 01:13 PM |
[QUOTE=wm07]Hey Chris, that evo is not stock. It has coilovers with Ground Control camber plates (caster and camber adjustable.) Not sure what else it has however, but I recall it has catback at least...[/QUOTE]
ok... well that would explain why it was running STU then {beer mug smilie if nasioc had one}
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]I'm biased but... :D
Stock vs Stock - driver's race.
Modded...the Evo's seemed to do better last year (re: ESP Nat'l results)
However, I think again, even modded, it would come down to level of prep and driver.[/QUOTE]
what we need is some EVO and STI cometition in the same class... On that point I am a little disapointed in the local STI crew for not stepping up to the BMW challenge as I have.:rolleyes:
So who in the SFR region is going to answer the challenge and run SM?
[b]Come on![/b] It would be so much fun to actually comete head to head against the other "rally car". If you drive to the events like I do, then you compete against me, if you trailer you STI to the event you compete against Vic (bmw) and Navid (evo).
/rant off
ok... well that would explain why it was running STU then {beer mug smilie if nasioc had one}
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]I'm biased but... :D
Stock vs Stock - driver's race.
Modded...the Evo's seemed to do better last year (re: ESP Nat'l results)
However, I think again, even modded, it would come down to level of prep and driver.[/QUOTE]
what we need is some EVO and STI cometition in the same class... On that point I am a little disapointed in the local STI crew for not stepping up to the BMW challenge as I have.:rolleyes:
So who in the SFR region is going to answer the challenge and run SM?
[b]Come on![/b] It would be so much fun to actually comete head to head against the other "rally car". If you drive to the events like I do, then you compete against me, if you trailer you STI to the event you compete against Vic (bmw) and Navid (evo).
/rant off
| r0nzar | 05-21-2006 03:35 PM |
Here in NJ, at least in Englishtown, the auto-x events are full of evos. At my last event there were at least 6 or 7 of them, as compared to one STi (with a new driver) and 3 wrx's.
The evo owners around here have gotten pretty smart, they tape up or take off their plates at an event, as to avoid the BS.
Fastest time of the day actually went to an old white griffith.....take that fwiw
as to the cars, the better one is the one with the better driver.....they both have strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out.
The evo owners around here have gotten pretty smart, they tape up or take off their plates at an event, as to avoid the BS.
Fastest time of the day actually went to an old white griffith.....take that fwiw
as to the cars, the better one is the one with the better driver.....they both have strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out.
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