| Butt Dyno | 05-21-2006 12:11 AM |
Bigger front bar = oversteer? (long)
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cliffnotes: 27mm Whiteline front bar turned neutral car squirrelly. Help!!1one.
Brief but potentially helpful setup history:
2003 setup - stock for DS
Then I decided to go to STX :)
2004 setup -
STi RA struts/springs, w Grp N tops
stock alignment (DOH!)
21 mm Cusco front swaybar
22/23/24mm Cusco rear swaybar set on 24
Cusco strut braces (bling)
225-45-17 Azenis
Overall, happy with liveability and stability, but wanted something more as I was starting to do more autox events. I was gonna do pink springs and camber plates, but got a good deal on a set of custom valved JIC's, so...
2005 setup -
JIC FLTA2-RS w/ 9k/10k
-3.7 front, -2.1 rear, no toe
21 mm Cusco front swaybar
17 mm FHI rear swaybar
Cusco strut braces
225-45-17 Azenis
I only did one event with the Cusco 22/23/24 bar on 22 and the car did feel a little tailhappy. I picked up a 17mm (I had traded my 20mm stocker away) and never missed the Cusco.
People say mean things about the JIC's but I was (and am) happy with the performance of mine. Maybe the custom valved ones are just that much better than the OTS's, I dunno. But a couple clicks of adjustment made a noticeable difference in the balance of the car. Yeah, they're stiff. The car was overall quite neutral, definitely not squirrelly.
My only real complaint: the car wasn't as sharp on turnin, or in slaloms, as I wanted. So, naturally the next item on my list was a big front bar.
2006 setup -
JIC FLTA2-RS w/ 9k/10k
-3.7 front, -2.1 rear, no toe
27 mm Whiteline adj. front swaybar (on stiff)
17 mm FHI rear swaybar
Cusco strut braces
225-45-17 Azenis
PC680 battery
lots more power
The front bar (and probably to a lesser extent, the light battery and the light header) made an immediate difference as far as turn-in and transitions. The car slaloms a LOT better now. So everything's perfect and I'm done dialing in, right? Nope!
What I've been struggling with, ever since I put the front bar on there, is that it seems to be VERY tailhappy. The threshold for spinning the car is a lot lower than it was before the bar was on there. Anything resembling trailbraking (intentional or otherwise) or a change in direction where I don't get on the gas enough, and the rear end gets very light, often too light. Think about exiting a sweeper, or an offset gate, and then going into another one in the opposite direction - that's typically the situation where it happens.
Here's a video to demonstrate:
[url]http://www.buttdynoracing.com/videos/20060513/Fedex%203.mpg[/url]
At about the 13 second mark in the video I am trying to work my way through the offset gates - not sure if I just lifted or what, but the rear end started to come out and I managed to save it and still put together a decent run. But it cost me time, no doubt.
I've heard for a while the "no dummy, front bars DON'T make you understeer, they help manage camber, and increase front grip" explanation and it made a lot of sense. But it never occurred to me that one consequence of increasing front grip might be to make the car more unstable as a whole (i.e. having so much more front grip, than rear grip, that the car oversteers)
Adjusting the shocks so far hasn't been able to cure it. In 2005 I ran around at 10/16 front, 7/10 rear, and never had to adjust far out of that range. In 2006 even with 10/16 front and 3/16 rear I can't make much of a dent in this behavior.
As for tire pressures, I usually run someplace in the mid to high 30's with the fronts higher, something like 38/36 or 39/37.
My guesses?
-This is purely a driving style change I'll have to make if I want to keep this setup: stay on the gas in those situations to keep enough weight on the rear tires that I can shoot out of those corners.
-Maybe less static front camber. With the big ass bar up there, I won't need nearly as much, and backing this down to maybe -3.2 will help acceleration and braking without impacting cornering very much. Since I'm running stiff-sidewall tires (Azenis 215's) -3.2 should be plenty.
-Some toe somewhere. I dunno a lot about toe.
-Flip the springs to 10k f, 9k r. Shouldn't be a huge impact, that's how they were when I bought them, but should be some incremental difference (might even help ride quality).
-Tire pressure? I would think that adding more air to the rears would just make the problem worse.
-Bigger rear bar? Again, intuitively I would think this would also make things worse. I have a 20mm stocker and I still have the adjustable Cusco if I decide to experiment. Having a 10mm gap f/r might be so large that it's screwing up the handling? I don't want a drift car :)
Questions:
1) Anyone else experience this? Not just more grip from a big front bar - but overall looseness from a big front bar?
2) Any other ideas on what I can do to mitigate this or is this just a tradeoff that I'm stuck with if I want to keep my newfound transitional sharpness?
Thanks,
John
Brief but potentially helpful setup history:
2003 setup - stock for DS
Then I decided to go to STX :)
2004 setup -
STi RA struts/springs, w Grp N tops
stock alignment (DOH!)
21 mm Cusco front swaybar
22/23/24mm Cusco rear swaybar set on 24
Cusco strut braces (bling)
225-45-17 Azenis
Overall, happy with liveability and stability, but wanted something more as I was starting to do more autox events. I was gonna do pink springs and camber plates, but got a good deal on a set of custom valved JIC's, so...
2005 setup -
JIC FLTA2-RS w/ 9k/10k
-3.7 front, -2.1 rear, no toe
21 mm Cusco front swaybar
17 mm FHI rear swaybar
Cusco strut braces
225-45-17 Azenis
I only did one event with the Cusco 22/23/24 bar on 22 and the car did feel a little tailhappy. I picked up a 17mm (I had traded my 20mm stocker away) and never missed the Cusco.
People say mean things about the JIC's but I was (and am) happy with the performance of mine. Maybe the custom valved ones are just that much better than the OTS's, I dunno. But a couple clicks of adjustment made a noticeable difference in the balance of the car. Yeah, they're stiff. The car was overall quite neutral, definitely not squirrelly.
My only real complaint: the car wasn't as sharp on turnin, or in slaloms, as I wanted. So, naturally the next item on my list was a big front bar.
2006 setup -
JIC FLTA2-RS w/ 9k/10k
-3.7 front, -2.1 rear, no toe
27 mm Whiteline adj. front swaybar (on stiff)
17 mm FHI rear swaybar
Cusco strut braces
225-45-17 Azenis
PC680 battery
lots more power
The front bar (and probably to a lesser extent, the light battery and the light header) made an immediate difference as far as turn-in and transitions. The car slaloms a LOT better now. So everything's perfect and I'm done dialing in, right? Nope!
What I've been struggling with, ever since I put the front bar on there, is that it seems to be VERY tailhappy. The threshold for spinning the car is a lot lower than it was before the bar was on there. Anything resembling trailbraking (intentional or otherwise) or a change in direction where I don't get on the gas enough, and the rear end gets very light, often too light. Think about exiting a sweeper, or an offset gate, and then going into another one in the opposite direction - that's typically the situation where it happens.
Here's a video to demonstrate:
[url]http://www.buttdynoracing.com/videos/20060513/Fedex%203.mpg[/url]
At about the 13 second mark in the video I am trying to work my way through the offset gates - not sure if I just lifted or what, but the rear end started to come out and I managed to save it and still put together a decent run. But it cost me time, no doubt.
I've heard for a while the "no dummy, front bars DON'T make you understeer, they help manage camber, and increase front grip" explanation and it made a lot of sense. But it never occurred to me that one consequence of increasing front grip might be to make the car more unstable as a whole (i.e. having so much more front grip, than rear grip, that the car oversteers)
Adjusting the shocks so far hasn't been able to cure it. In 2005 I ran around at 10/16 front, 7/10 rear, and never had to adjust far out of that range. In 2006 even with 10/16 front and 3/16 rear I can't make much of a dent in this behavior.
As for tire pressures, I usually run someplace in the mid to high 30's with the fronts higher, something like 38/36 or 39/37.
My guesses?
-This is purely a driving style change I'll have to make if I want to keep this setup: stay on the gas in those situations to keep enough weight on the rear tires that I can shoot out of those corners.
-Maybe less static front camber. With the big ass bar up there, I won't need nearly as much, and backing this down to maybe -3.2 will help acceleration and braking without impacting cornering very much. Since I'm running stiff-sidewall tires (Azenis 215's) -3.2 should be plenty.
-Some toe somewhere. I dunno a lot about toe.
-Flip the springs to 10k f, 9k r. Shouldn't be a huge impact, that's how they were when I bought them, but should be some incremental difference (might even help ride quality).
-Tire pressure? I would think that adding more air to the rears would just make the problem worse.
-Bigger rear bar? Again, intuitively I would think this would also make things worse. I have a 20mm stocker and I still have the adjustable Cusco if I decide to experiment. Having a 10mm gap f/r might be so large that it's screwing up the handling? I don't want a drift car :)
Questions:
1) Anyone else experience this? Not just more grip from a big front bar - but overall looseness from a big front bar?
2) Any other ideas on what I can do to mitigate this or is this just a tradeoff that I'm stuck with if I want to keep my newfound transitional sharpness?
Thanks,
John
| wm07 | 05-21-2006 12:52 AM |
I think it's a good thing, you know your front grip have increased! I went through the same thing on my STi, after putting on a 32mm Strano bar, I had to dial in more negative camber at the rear to compensate for my increased front end grip. (From -1.5 camber to -1.9) My spring rates are 9k/8k, front camber is -3.6, and rear bar is set to 22mm (Cusco).
I am not sure what you need to do, it sounds crazy to add more bar in the rear, but I think it worths a try, since you already have them laying around even though it should induce more oversteer. After all, 10mm difference between front bar and rear bar is a lot...
I am not sure what you need to do, it sounds crazy to add more bar in the rear, but I think it worths a try, since you already have them laying around even though it should induce more oversteer. After all, 10mm difference between front bar and rear bar is a lot...
| trhoppe | 05-21-2006 01:47 AM |
I just cannot wait to point to this thread when people say "OMG FRONT BAR = UNDERSTEER OMG!" :)
I say
a) driving style. Turn less and turn slower.
b) less static front camber because you don't need that much anymore on azenis. This will also help braking.
c) If anything, try removing the rear bar
In the video, you were loose because you jerked the wheel and the increased front bite made the car come around. You need to just be smoother with the wheel.
-Tom
I say
a) driving style. Turn less and turn slower.
b) less static front camber because you don't need that much anymore on azenis. This will also help braking.
c) If anything, try removing the rear bar
In the video, you were loose because you jerked the wheel and the increased front bite made the car come around. You need to just be smoother with the wheel.
-Tom
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-21-2006 10:44 AM |
How about simply doing the poor man's adjustment against over/understeer- adjust tire pressures and use a pyrometer?
| rex n effect | 05-21-2006 11:55 AM |
Maybe the custom valving is "custom valved" more in the rear, but there's definitely *slightly* too much oversteer inherent in his car. It's fun to drive, though. It seems that he's running a rear bar smaller than anyone else and it's still very tail happy. That part just seems counterintuitive.
| ChrisW | 05-21-2006 01:10 PM |
sounds like you need more camber in the rear. Even -3.2 in the front is a bit extreme, I never ran more than -3 in front.
With the bigger front bar, you might even try swapping the rear springs to the front to put a little more understeer back into the car. This would also work to reduce the body roll in the transitions.
With the bigger front bar, you might even try swapping the rear springs to the front to put a little more understeer back into the car. This would also work to reduce the body roll in the transitions.
| Zoinks | 05-21-2006 10:09 PM |
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]How about simply doing the poor man's adjustment against over/understeer- adjust tire pressures and use a pyrometer?[/QUOTE]
Like I said Saturday, I've gotten BIG changes to happen in the balance of the car with just a few PSI difference in the tire pressures. Maybe play with that for an event? I was doing 45/40psi when I was trying to keep the car a little more planted. What kind of pressures does everybody else run on the Falkens?
The itty-bitty rear bar blows my mind, but like you said, I don't see how going bigger is going to do anything but make it worse.
The only other random thought I have is, with your dampers having seen so many years of abuse, are you sure they're still working properly?
Like I said Saturday, I've gotten BIG changes to happen in the balance of the car with just a few PSI difference in the tire pressures. Maybe play with that for an event? I was doing 45/40psi when I was trying to keep the car a little more planted. What kind of pressures does everybody else run on the Falkens?
The itty-bitty rear bar blows my mind, but like you said, I don't see how going bigger is going to do anything but make it worse.
The only other random thought I have is, with your dampers having seen so many years of abuse, are you sure they're still working properly?
| Butt Dyno | 05-22-2006 01:03 AM |
Thanks for the replies (and to Mark for being the first person to say "it must be the bar increasing front grip, dummy!" :lol: )
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I say
a) driving style. Turn less and turn slower.
b) less static front camber because you don't need that much anymore on azenis. This will also help braking.
c) If anything, try removing the rear bar[/QUOTE]
Driving style - definitely gonna work on this :) God bless chasecam, being able to look at my hands afterwards is definitely useful.
Alignment - just need to get to the shop. My Azenis are nearing the end of their life tho. Next step is either angryfist's old stack of shaved 451's, or maybe sell those and just a set of Yokos (oops, I mean kooks! ;) ). The 451's are only 35 profile, but do you think they'd need the extra camber (i.e., the amount I'm running now?)
Rear bar - free, easy, worth a shot.
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]How about simply doing the poor man's adjustment against over/understeer- adjust tire pressures and use a pyrometer?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zoinks]Like I said Saturday, I've gotten BIG changes to happen in the balance of the car with just a few PSI difference in the tire pressures. Maybe play with that for an event? I was doing 45/40psi when I was trying to keep the car a little more planted. [/quote]What were you doing before 45/40? I have gone all the way down to 36/33, but I can definitely add more to the front - that's another cheap experiment. I have always run more pressure in the front than the rear but never with a gap larger than 3 psi.
[QUOTE=ChrisW]sounds like you need more camber in the rear. Even -3.2 in the front is a bit extreme, I never ran more than -3 in front.
With the bigger front bar, you might even try swapping the rear springs to the front to put a little more understeer back into the car. This would also work to reduce the body roll in the transitions.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I may just swap back to 10k/9k if it comes to that. Minor PITA since I need to get it aligned afterwards.
[quote=Zoinks]The only other random thought I have is, with your dampers having seen so many years of abuse, are you sure they're still working properly?[/QUOTE]Pretty sure. They feel the same on the highway as they always did and neither I or Fatih drove the car all that much. My guess is they have about 25K on them total. No signs of leaking or anything.
So, sounds like the plan is something like:
1) Free options
-Driving style. Gimme, since I need to do it anyway.
-Add lots of pressure to the front.
-Put the bar on the soft setting instead of the stiff one, though going from 29 to 27 might not be big enough to be transformative.
-Ditch the rear bar.
2) If that doesn't work
-Go to -3, -2 instead, and/or
-Switch to 10k/9k
-If the car isn't neutral enough yet, stick the front bar back on "stiff"
john
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I say
a) driving style. Turn less and turn slower.
b) less static front camber because you don't need that much anymore on azenis. This will also help braking.
c) If anything, try removing the rear bar[/QUOTE]
Driving style - definitely gonna work on this :) God bless chasecam, being able to look at my hands afterwards is definitely useful.
Alignment - just need to get to the shop. My Azenis are nearing the end of their life tho. Next step is either angryfist's old stack of shaved 451's, or maybe sell those and just a set of Yokos (oops, I mean kooks! ;) ). The 451's are only 35 profile, but do you think they'd need the extra camber (i.e., the amount I'm running now?)
Rear bar - free, easy, worth a shot.
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]How about simply doing the poor man's adjustment against over/understeer- adjust tire pressures and use a pyrometer?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zoinks]Like I said Saturday, I've gotten BIG changes to happen in the balance of the car with just a few PSI difference in the tire pressures. Maybe play with that for an event? I was doing 45/40psi when I was trying to keep the car a little more planted. [/quote]What were you doing before 45/40? I have gone all the way down to 36/33, but I can definitely add more to the front - that's another cheap experiment. I have always run more pressure in the front than the rear but never with a gap larger than 3 psi.
[QUOTE=ChrisW]sounds like you need more camber in the rear. Even -3.2 in the front is a bit extreme, I never ran more than -3 in front.
With the bigger front bar, you might even try swapping the rear springs to the front to put a little more understeer back into the car. This would also work to reduce the body roll in the transitions.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I may just swap back to 10k/9k if it comes to that. Minor PITA since I need to get it aligned afterwards.
[quote=Zoinks]The only other random thought I have is, with your dampers having seen so many years of abuse, are you sure they're still working properly?[/QUOTE]Pretty sure. They feel the same on the highway as they always did and neither I or Fatih drove the car all that much. My guess is they have about 25K on them total. No signs of leaking or anything.
So, sounds like the plan is something like:
1) Free options
-Driving style. Gimme, since I need to do it anyway.
-Add lots of pressure to the front.
-Put the bar on the soft setting instead of the stiff one, though going from 29 to 27 might not be big enough to be transformative.
-Ditch the rear bar.
2) If that doesn't work
-Go to -3, -2 instead, and/or
-Switch to 10k/9k
-If the car isn't neutral enough yet, stick the front bar back on "stiff"
john
| STi-MAN | 05-22-2006 01:27 AM |
OMG FRONT BAR = UNDERSTEER OMG!
jk
jk
| solo-x | 05-22-2006 08:20 AM |
your car isn't loose yet. i would describe it as rather tight from watching that video. leave everything alone and get used to driving the car the way it is. you have no faith in it right now. look for ways on every run to be full throttle or close too it in all the heavy transitions. you were off throttle in a heavy transition in that video. you NEVER want to do that.
| trhoppe | 05-22-2006 08:39 AM |
Yup, listen to Nate. Thats why a) and b) of my advice had nothing to do with your perceived "looseness" :)
-Tom
-Tom
| Porter | 05-22-2006 10:10 AM |
I love threads like this.
Considering that some of us have been recommending large front sway bars to increase front end grip on Subarus for the last 6+ years, it's sweet music to my ears.
Considering that some of us have been recommending large front sway bars to increase front end grip on Subarus for the last 6+ years, it's sweet music to my ears.
| makofoto | 05-22-2006 11:27 AM |
You're always trying to get as much grip as you can in the front ... and balancing with the rear. I would try more rear neg. camber and/or a bit of rear toe in.
Yesterday my car started too loose. I reduced rear tire pressure, and soften my rear struts, and the car was wonderful. Turning in early, sort of a flick, brought the tail out so that I could be on the power even before the apex. I had to be slightly less aggressive in the slaloms but the course emphasized steady state corners. Then my front right CV joint went out! :mad: Collateral damage from my R tire days.
12k/10K custom valved Tein Flex's
Hotchkis bars on full stiff.
- 4.5 front/-2+ rear
2 mm out in front, 1 mm out rear
235/40/17 Kooks ... 38/35
10 mm front spacers (wagon)
Yesterday my car started too loose. I reduced rear tire pressure, and soften my rear struts, and the car was wonderful. Turning in early, sort of a flick, brought the tail out so that I could be on the power even before the apex. I had to be slightly less aggressive in the slaloms but the course emphasized steady state corners. Then my front right CV joint went out! :mad: Collateral damage from my R tire days.
12k/10K custom valved Tein Flex's
Hotchkis bars on full stiff.
- 4.5 front/-2+ rear
2 mm out in front, 1 mm out rear
235/40/17 Kooks ... 38/35
10 mm front spacers (wagon)
| Butt Dyno | 06-22-2006 11:56 AM |
Update... the last autox (6-11) went really well as far as the car went. No spins :lol:
The only change I made was setting the swaybar down to 27mm instead of 29mm. Well, that and being a lot smoother on all inputs (i.e. gas/steering).
Car feels awesome now, best of all worlds. Looking forward to getting whooped at the Pro.
john
The only change I made was setting the swaybar down to 27mm instead of 29mm. Well, that and being a lot smoother on all inputs (i.e. gas/steering).
Car feels awesome now, best of all worlds. Looking forward to getting whooped at the Pro.
john
| silver arrow | 06-22-2006 11:49 PM |
GLad to hear. I have my first ax after switching fro RE070's to RT-615's. Should be interesting.
| import111 | 06-23-2006 01:42 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]GLad to hear. I have my first ax after switching fro RE070's to RT-615's. Should be interesting.[/QUOTE]
If you are using 225/45/17 RT615's, I would like to hear what you think of them compared to the RE070's after you auto-x.
If you are using 225/45/17 RT615's, I would like to hear what you think of them compared to the RE070's after you auto-x.
| DrBiggly | 06-23-2006 01:50 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]GLad to hear. I have my first ax after switching fro RE070's to RT-615's. Should be interesting.[/QUOTE]
You'll likely need a bit more camber than what you were running due to the difference in sidewall construction (Bridgestone == concave sidewalls) for the design and the overall sidewall stiffness.
Expect to feel a bit more numb and not as quick to transition. I don't know about grip levels; shouldn't be hugely different I don't think. :)
-Biggly
You'll likely need a bit more camber than what you were running due to the difference in sidewall construction (Bridgestone == concave sidewalls) for the design and the overall sidewall stiffness.
Expect to feel a bit more numb and not as quick to transition. I don't know about grip levels; shouldn't be hugely different I don't think. :)
-Biggly
| hanzo918 | 06-23-2006 03:21 AM |
Toe out helps more than u can imagine. =)
| qcslvr30 | 06-23-2006 09:12 PM |
I've been thinking about trying some rear toe out on my STU 04 STi. How much toe are some of you guys running? Does this have more effect on transitional or steady state cornering?
-James
-James
| Butt Dyno | 06-23-2006 10:16 PM |
[QUOTE=qcslvr30]I've been thinking about trying some rear toe out on my STU 04 STi. How much toe are some of you guys running? Does this have more effect on transitional or steady state cornering?
-James[/QUOTE]
Start a new thread :)
-James[/QUOTE]
Start a new thread :)
| shemoves | 06-23-2006 10:49 PM |
just some options in order of what I'd do...though I am a consistently slow (times) driver: (if available) have 'good'/competition experienced subaru driver see what he/she thinks as it just may be the nut behind the wheel ;) , slightly stiffer rear bar (Perhaps '04 STi takeoff), lesser front camber, lesser front bar setting.
| solo-x | 06-24-2006 11:03 PM |
[QUOTE=shemoves]just some options in order of what I'd do...though I am a consistently slow (times) driver: (if available) have 'good'/competition experienced subaru driver see what he/she thinks as it just may be the nut behind the wheel ;) , slightly stiffer rear bar (Perhaps '04 STi takeoff), lesser front camber, lesser front bar setting.[/QUOTE]
:eek: all that work to get the front to stick, then you want to unstick it??? you can ALWAYS restick the ass end of the car easier then the front. a dash of rear toe in, a tick more rear camber or just a little pressure adjustment should be all that's needed.
:eek: all that work to get the front to stick, then you want to unstick it??? you can ALWAYS restick the ass end of the car easier then the front. a dash of rear toe in, a tick more rear camber or just a little pressure adjustment should be all that's needed.
| DrBiggly | 06-24-2006 11:39 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]:eek: all that work to get the front to stick, then you want to unstick it??? you can ALWAYS restick the ass end of the car easier then the front. a dash of rear toe in, a tick more rear camber or just a little pressure adjustment should be all that's needed.[/QUOTE]
I agree wholeheartedly.
Step 1) Get maximum traction on the front of the car.
Step 2) Adjust rear grip to get desired rotation.
-Biggly
I agree wholeheartedly.
Step 1) Get maximum traction on the front of the car.
Step 2) Adjust rear grip to get desired rotation.
-Biggly
| chimchimm5 | 09-12-2006 01:29 AM |
This is a really good thread... Good to know where "too much front sway bar" starts to come in.
I'm kinda glad I got the 22mm adj and didn't go nuts on the 27/29. (plus I have a wagon). One thing though.... I still have my 22mm adj rear to put on... hmmm so that means both my FSB and RSB moved more in the direction of oversteer. I hope it's not tail happy, especially in the rain.
I'm kinda glad I got the 22mm adj and didn't go nuts on the 27/29. (plus I have a wagon). One thing though.... I still have my 22mm adj rear to put on... hmmm so that means both my FSB and RSB moved more in the direction of oversteer. I hope it's not tail happy, especially in the rain.
| ruggedman | 09-12-2006 12:18 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x;13868322]your car isn't loose yet. i would describe it as rather tight from watching that video. leave everything alone and get used to driving the car the way it is. you have no faith in it right now. look for ways on every run to be full throttle or close too it in all the heavy transitions. you were off throttle in a heavy transition in that video. you NEVER want to do that.[/QUOTE]
I got that from the video too. It looks like it's handling those corners fairly well, the part were you came unglued was the result of lift throttle oversteer (even though it wasn't an abrupt lift). Get your entry speed right, then accelerate through the corners. That course kicked ass BTW :lol: our's are never that open :( :o
I got that from the video too. It looks like it's handling those corners fairly well, the part were you came unglued was the result of lift throttle oversteer (even though it wasn't an abrupt lift). Get your entry speed right, then accelerate through the corners. That course kicked ass BTW :lol: our's are never that open :( :o
| silver arrow | 09-12-2006 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly;14255488]You'll likely need a bit more camber than what you were running due to the difference in sidewall construction (Bridgestone == concave sidewalls) for the design and the overall sidewall stiffness.
Expect to feel a bit more numb and not as quick to transition. I don't know about grip levels; shouldn't be hugely different I don't think. :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
After 3 ax on them, you are right. Old topic, but did the OP finally get it all worked out?
Expect to feel a bit more numb and not as quick to transition. I don't know about grip levels; shouldn't be hugely different I don't think. :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
After 3 ax on them, you are right. Old topic, but did the OP finally get it all worked out?
| Butt Dyno | 09-12-2006 01:08 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;15216906]After 3 ax on them, you are right. Old topic, but did the OP finally get it all worked out?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it was definitely a committment problem more than anything else. I'll probably set the bar back to 29mm one of these days.
john
Yeah, it was definitely a committment problem more than anything else. I'll probably set the bar back to 29mm one of these days.
john
| Mykl | 09-12-2006 01:15 PM |
This is a good thread... I guess my experience with the bigger FSB would either suggest that I didn't go big enough with the bar, or that my driving is broken. Now that I think about it there could be other reasons... I'll find out soon when I get a little more freedom of adjustability with my new setup.
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