| HoRo1 | 06-17-2003 12:11 PM |
CART up for sale
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Losing money hand over fist apparently. They buy their own TV time and sell the advertising themselves. They will spend over $15m on buying time, but are projected to raise about $4m in advertising. It's not just the TV audience that is losing interest, crowds are also dropping and with such a reduced cash flow, it is believed that one or two teams might disappear before the end of the season. There will be no 2004 race at California Speedway.
Enjoy it while you can. I get a whiff of Bernie Ecclestone bringing in some cash and trying to set up CART as an F3000 adjunct and use it as a feeder for F1. I think that CART will struggle to survive in any form beyond next season - and maybe not even making it to next season at all.
Anybody know if American Le Mans series is making money? Just how much damage is NASCAR doing to other forms of racing?
Enjoy it while you can. I get a whiff of Bernie Ecclestone bringing in some cash and trying to set up CART as an F3000 adjunct and use it as a feeder for F1. I think that CART will struggle to survive in any form beyond next season - and maybe not even making it to next season at all.
Anybody know if American Le Mans series is making money? Just how much damage is NASCAR doing to other forms of racing?
| ITWRX4ME | 06-17-2003 01:31 PM |
I can understand why NASCAR could be successful while CART couldn't. Or at least, I can guess what marketers would say about it. NASCAR has mass appeal because the cars are 'similiar' to the cars the viewers drive. :rolleyes:
Me? I still don't get it. Neither series holds much sway with me because oval track racing is just mind numbing. Sometimes I'll tune in to a NASCAR race just because there's nothing on but golf(I only have antennae reception). But I usually fall asleep.
And as far as the mass appeal thing, why wouldn't USTCC be more popular? Those ARE the cars we drive everyday.
Me? I still don't get it. Neither series holds much sway with me because oval track racing is just mind numbing. Sometimes I'll tune in to a NASCAR race just because there's nothing on but golf(I only have antennae reception). But I usually fall asleep.
And as far as the mass appeal thing, why wouldn't USTCC be more popular? Those ARE the cars we drive everyday.
| rkkwan | 06-17-2003 03:47 PM |
This reminds me of something I heard in the Laguna broadcast. This is the last year Players will sponsor a team. And they have the best, winniest team of CART. I forgot if this is due to some sort of smoking-ad ban or what, but let's face it, across the world, tobacco companies have been the most important sponsors for auto-racing since the earliest times, whether you like it or not. Cutting that off for whatever reason or ideaology is going to hurt motorsports, at least in the short term.
-Ray
-Ray
| Achilles38WRX | 06-17-2003 04:26 PM |
Re: CART up for sale
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by HoRo1 [/i]
[B]Just how much damage is NASCAR doing to other forms of racing? [/B][/QUOTE]
why pick nascar as the scapegoat with no mention of Tony George and his IRL? The beginning of the end was back when CART stopped running the 500 at the brickyard. Nowadays in CART it is expensive to field a car, but due to the poor econonmy sponsors are getting harder to come by. The spon sors that do pony up want to get thier moneys worth, so they go where the ratings are. Nobody watches CART races anymore, so the money goes elsewhere.
Racing series come and go, its unfortunate but true. Maybe when CART disappears Tony will take the IRL road racing, to fill that market segment.
[B]Just how much damage is NASCAR doing to other forms of racing? [/B][/QUOTE]
why pick nascar as the scapegoat with no mention of Tony George and his IRL? The beginning of the end was back when CART stopped running the 500 at the brickyard. Nowadays in CART it is expensive to field a car, but due to the poor econonmy sponsors are getting harder to come by. The spon sors that do pony up want to get thier moneys worth, so they go where the ratings are. Nobody watches CART races anymore, so the money goes elsewhere.
Racing series come and go, its unfortunate but true. Maybe when CART disappears Tony will take the IRL road racing, to fill that market segment.
| HoRo1 | 06-17-2003 05:23 PM |
The IRL can't even sell out its premier race the Indy 500. There was a time not so long ago, when the 500 was billed as the world's greatest race. They don't even try that BS anymore. IRL is also losing money - poor TV ratings and poor attendance. NASCAR is undoubtedly sucking in a huge % of all available sponsorship $. Sports car racing is suffering as well.
If you just analyse the finances of motor racing from NASCAR to CART to IRL to ALMS to Grand Am/Rolex, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to see that with the sport having such high fixed costs and the huge popularity of NASCAR (very high TV ratings and sell-out crowds) sucking up $, the non-NASCAR series are competing for an ever decreasing pot of cash There just isn't the money for IRL and CART, and probably not enough for Rolex and ALMS. The Rolex series is already creaking on weak financial foundations.
Simply put, if you were looking for somewhere to advertise your brand to the tune of $10m, where would you look, NASCAR or CART, NASCAR or IRL. Maybe sports car racing can survive because they have the aura of money (lots of watch sponsorship deals) and feel that they promote to a different class of fan (the ones with teeth), but if they don't put asses in seats at the track and in front of the TVs, they too are done. How are the ALMS teams going to afford an ALMS season and the new for next season Europe based 1000km enduros at Spa, Silverstone, the 'Ring and Monza? I know that sports car racing is much more popular in Europe than here, but...
If you just analyse the finances of motor racing from NASCAR to CART to IRL to ALMS to Grand Am/Rolex, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to see that with the sport having such high fixed costs and the huge popularity of NASCAR (very high TV ratings and sell-out crowds) sucking up $, the non-NASCAR series are competing for an ever decreasing pot of cash There just isn't the money for IRL and CART, and probably not enough for Rolex and ALMS. The Rolex series is already creaking on weak financial foundations.
Simply put, if you were looking for somewhere to advertise your brand to the tune of $10m, where would you look, NASCAR or CART, NASCAR or IRL. Maybe sports car racing can survive because they have the aura of money (lots of watch sponsorship deals) and feel that they promote to a different class of fan (the ones with teeth), but if they don't put asses in seats at the track and in front of the TVs, they too are done. How are the ALMS teams going to afford an ALMS season and the new for next season Europe based 1000km enduros at Spa, Silverstone, the 'Ring and Monza? I know that sports car racing is much more popular in Europe than here, but...
| grumbly | 06-17-2003 10:50 PM |
Before we start discussing exactly what parts of the sky are going to fall next lest back up a sec. HoRo1 where did you get your information that CART is up for sale? Is this wild conjecture or are you biasing this on some published fact? Same goes for your numbers. They look �purty but you don�t exactly give references to where you pull them from.
-chris
-chris
| HomerJay | 06-18-2003 01:13 AM |
I don't see how American Le Mans makes money, it has even less TV coverage than all of them. I think racing in America will be left to family sedans making left turns :( :rolleyes:
| Orion | 06-18-2003 03:10 AM |
i know not many of you pay close attention to NASCAR, but even there they are feeling the effects of the current economy. even some of the bigger teams are losing major sponsors. (i.e. Roush losing Citgo 2 days ago). also, lots of tracks are not selling out so they're moving races to others. on top of all that, Winston is pulling their name...
NHRA is now Powerade, CART has a name too long for anyone to remember, IRL doesn't have a major title sponsor, but I'm sure they're looking for one (Pep Boys, Northern Lights, etc.).
It's a bad market overall for all forms of racing right now.:(
NHRA is now Powerade, CART has a name too long for anyone to remember, IRL doesn't have a major title sponsor, but I'm sure they're looking for one (Pep Boys, Northern Lights, etc.).
It's a bad market overall for all forms of racing right now.:(
| ITWRX4ME | 06-18-2003 08:30 AM |
You have to wonder if NASCAR tells sponsors, "Look at all the available ad space on our cars compared to the add space on the on the open wheel cars, or even grand touring cars for that matter! What would you rather see,? This..."
[color=red][i]
[size=1]Tide[/size]
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or this...?
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[size=6]Tide[/size]
[/color][/i]
[color=red][i]
[size=1]Tide[/size]
[/color][/i]
or this...?
[color=red][i]
[size=6]Tide[/size]
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| HoRo1 | 06-18-2003 09:17 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grumbly [/i]
[B]Before we start discussing exactly what parts of the sky are going to fall next lest back up a sec. HoRo1 where did you get your information that CART is up for sale? Is this wild conjecture or are you biasing this on some published fact? Same goes for your numbers. They look �purty but you don�t exactly give references to where you pull them from.
-chris [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought this was common knowledge. The most recent article outlining CART's desperate situation was seen in my local rag, the LA Times yesterday - see below
************************
CART Going on the Market
With the loss of sponsors and other revenue, racing league hires investment banker to explore financial options and look for a buyer.
_
_
_Quote
_"We expect that remaining cash reserves ... will be sufficient for capital expenditures and other cash needs during 2004, but we also anticipate that by the end of the 2004 season, our cash reserves will be fully depleted."
-- Thomas L. Carter, CART chief financial officer
By Shav Glick, Times Staff Writer
Beleaguered Championship Auto Racing Teams Inc., better known as CART, has hung out the "For Sale" sign.
The investment banking firm of Bear Stearns & Company Inc. has been retained to "assist us in exploring strategic alternatives that may be available to CART, including a possible sale of the company," according to Thomas L. Carter, chief financial officer.
The open-wheel racing sanctioning body has been losing drivers, teams, sponsors and TV viewers at an alarming rate in the last several years, and attempts this season to shore up the organization have met with more hemorrhaging of money.
"We nevertheless want to help our shareholders and the larger investment community in measuring CART's progress as the year unfolds and in understanding management's own expectations for the year," said Chris Pook, CART president, in a statement accompanying Carter's financial report.
Associated Press reported Monday that Pook had met Friday with Bernie Eccelstone, head of Formula One, and Craig Pollack, who fields teams in both F1 and CART, leading to speculation that Eccelstone might purchase the series and put Pollack in charge.
"I don't think it's inevitable," said Carter. "It is one of the alternatives, but it's not the only one."
Pook has said since the day he took over leadership of CART that one of the previous management's biggest mistakes was in taking the company public.
During its successful years, CART generated most of its revenue from sanctioning fees, sponsorship and sale of television rights.
When some promoters fell victim to a weakening economy and were unable to pay sanctioning fees, CART began promoting races in important markets this year on its own. Two of those, at Brands Hatch, England, and Lausitz, Germany, resulted in losses of about $3.1 million. Carter said losses from all of the self-promoted races would range between $4.8 and $7.8 million.
Sponsor income, which was at $10.2 million last year, is expected to drop to $7 million to $8 million this year. The difference is primarily because of the loss of income from CART's former title sponsor, Federal Express.
CART has taken its TV program in-house, selling its own advertising time and buying airtime. Currently, it has seven of its 19 races on CBS, with the rest on Speed Channel. Forecasts are dismal, with revenues of $3 million to $4 million coming in, and costs of purchasing airtime and production expenses expected to reach $16 million to $17 million.
Perhaps more frightening to CART followers, the car count, now down to 19, could go lower.
CART was committed to spending $33 million in team assistance this year to ensure that there would be enough cars for the full season.
"Without this additional funding, it is unlikely that there would have been the necessary number of teams, which would have resulted in defaults under certain of the company's agreements with promoters and television," according to Carter's outline.
Then he added, "It is not our intention to provide, nor do we expect to have sufficient resources to maintain, the 2003 level of team assistance payments in the future. The risk remains that due to a lack of sponsor funding, certain teams may not be able to compete in 2004 and therefore we may not be able to maintain the number of cars that are currently participating in the 2003 season.
"We expect that remaining cash reserves, cash flow from operations and available bank borrowings will be sufficient for capital expenditures and other cash needs during 2004, but we also anticipate that by the end of the 2004 season, our cash reserves will be fully depleted.
"Management is currently [seeking] and will continue to seek alternate sources of financing to sustain the company through the 2005 season."
CART's stock, which trades on the New York Stock Exchange and was as high as $33 a share in 1998, closed Monday at $2.98.
Crowd counts are also falling.
Attendance at last Sunday's race at Laguna Seca Raceway, in Monterey, won by Patrick Carpentier wire-to-wire, was generously estimated at 28,000.
"It was down from previous years, but a lot of that can be attributed to the date change," said CART Vice President Adam Saal. "The change the former management made in switching its traditional Laguna Seca date from mid-October to June was a terrible mistake. We know it, but we're stuck with it this year."
Despite a perceived slight by California Speedway officials, who chose to leave the CART race off its 2004 season package, Saal said that CART was looking forward to its next two Fontana races.
CART will close the 2003 season at California Speedway on Nov. 2. The date for next year's race, the last of a five-year contract, has not been announced but is expected to be around the same time.
Last Friday, when it was announced that NASCAR would have a second Winston Cup date at Fontana, speedway officials revealed a 2004 season-ticket package that included � besides two NASCAR weekends � dates for motorcycles, sports cars, historic cars and the Indy Racing League, but not CART. It was announced that tickets for the CART race would be sold individually.
"We have never been proponents of season-ticket packages," Saal said. "They usually consist of premier events, such as NASCAR, grouped together with lesser events. We feel that fans should be able to go where they want without having to pay for events they may not plan to attend."
However, CART races have been on all previous California Speedway ticket packages along with NASCAR.
*****************
Oh yeah - I don't think that there is a Road Atlanta CART race this year. Some kind of financial argument with the track. Maybe they kissed and made up, maybe they didn't. As far as CART is concerned, the sky is falling.
[B]Before we start discussing exactly what parts of the sky are going to fall next lest back up a sec. HoRo1 where did you get your information that CART is up for sale? Is this wild conjecture or are you biasing this on some published fact? Same goes for your numbers. They look �purty but you don�t exactly give references to where you pull them from.
-chris [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought this was common knowledge. The most recent article outlining CART's desperate situation was seen in my local rag, the LA Times yesterday - see below
************************
CART Going on the Market
With the loss of sponsors and other revenue, racing league hires investment banker to explore financial options and look for a buyer.
_
_
_Quote
_"We expect that remaining cash reserves ... will be sufficient for capital expenditures and other cash needs during 2004, but we also anticipate that by the end of the 2004 season, our cash reserves will be fully depleted."
-- Thomas L. Carter, CART chief financial officer
By Shav Glick, Times Staff Writer
Beleaguered Championship Auto Racing Teams Inc., better known as CART, has hung out the "For Sale" sign.
The investment banking firm of Bear Stearns & Company Inc. has been retained to "assist us in exploring strategic alternatives that may be available to CART, including a possible sale of the company," according to Thomas L. Carter, chief financial officer.
The open-wheel racing sanctioning body has been losing drivers, teams, sponsors and TV viewers at an alarming rate in the last several years, and attempts this season to shore up the organization have met with more hemorrhaging of money.
"We nevertheless want to help our shareholders and the larger investment community in measuring CART's progress as the year unfolds and in understanding management's own expectations for the year," said Chris Pook, CART president, in a statement accompanying Carter's financial report.
Associated Press reported Monday that Pook had met Friday with Bernie Eccelstone, head of Formula One, and Craig Pollack, who fields teams in both F1 and CART, leading to speculation that Eccelstone might purchase the series and put Pollack in charge.
"I don't think it's inevitable," said Carter. "It is one of the alternatives, but it's not the only one."
Pook has said since the day he took over leadership of CART that one of the previous management's biggest mistakes was in taking the company public.
During its successful years, CART generated most of its revenue from sanctioning fees, sponsorship and sale of television rights.
When some promoters fell victim to a weakening economy and were unable to pay sanctioning fees, CART began promoting races in important markets this year on its own. Two of those, at Brands Hatch, England, and Lausitz, Germany, resulted in losses of about $3.1 million. Carter said losses from all of the self-promoted races would range between $4.8 and $7.8 million.
Sponsor income, which was at $10.2 million last year, is expected to drop to $7 million to $8 million this year. The difference is primarily because of the loss of income from CART's former title sponsor, Federal Express.
CART has taken its TV program in-house, selling its own advertising time and buying airtime. Currently, it has seven of its 19 races on CBS, with the rest on Speed Channel. Forecasts are dismal, with revenues of $3 million to $4 million coming in, and costs of purchasing airtime and production expenses expected to reach $16 million to $17 million.
Perhaps more frightening to CART followers, the car count, now down to 19, could go lower.
CART was committed to spending $33 million in team assistance this year to ensure that there would be enough cars for the full season.
"Without this additional funding, it is unlikely that there would have been the necessary number of teams, which would have resulted in defaults under certain of the company's agreements with promoters and television," according to Carter's outline.
Then he added, "It is not our intention to provide, nor do we expect to have sufficient resources to maintain, the 2003 level of team assistance payments in the future. The risk remains that due to a lack of sponsor funding, certain teams may not be able to compete in 2004 and therefore we may not be able to maintain the number of cars that are currently participating in the 2003 season.
"We expect that remaining cash reserves, cash flow from operations and available bank borrowings will be sufficient for capital expenditures and other cash needs during 2004, but we also anticipate that by the end of the 2004 season, our cash reserves will be fully depleted.
"Management is currently [seeking] and will continue to seek alternate sources of financing to sustain the company through the 2005 season."
CART's stock, which trades on the New York Stock Exchange and was as high as $33 a share in 1998, closed Monday at $2.98.
Crowd counts are also falling.
Attendance at last Sunday's race at Laguna Seca Raceway, in Monterey, won by Patrick Carpentier wire-to-wire, was generously estimated at 28,000.
"It was down from previous years, but a lot of that can be attributed to the date change," said CART Vice President Adam Saal. "The change the former management made in switching its traditional Laguna Seca date from mid-October to June was a terrible mistake. We know it, but we're stuck with it this year."
Despite a perceived slight by California Speedway officials, who chose to leave the CART race off its 2004 season package, Saal said that CART was looking forward to its next two Fontana races.
CART will close the 2003 season at California Speedway on Nov. 2. The date for next year's race, the last of a five-year contract, has not been announced but is expected to be around the same time.
Last Friday, when it was announced that NASCAR would have a second Winston Cup date at Fontana, speedway officials revealed a 2004 season-ticket package that included � besides two NASCAR weekends � dates for motorcycles, sports cars, historic cars and the Indy Racing League, but not CART. It was announced that tickets for the CART race would be sold individually.
"We have never been proponents of season-ticket packages," Saal said. "They usually consist of premier events, such as NASCAR, grouped together with lesser events. We feel that fans should be able to go where they want without having to pay for events they may not plan to attend."
However, CART races have been on all previous California Speedway ticket packages along with NASCAR.
*****************
Oh yeah - I don't think that there is a Road Atlanta CART race this year. Some kind of financial argument with the track. Maybe they kissed and made up, maybe they didn't. As far as CART is concerned, the sky is falling.
| 10th Warrior | 06-18-2003 10:25 AM |
CART [i]is[/i] up for sale. peruse any motorsport news site and you'll find talk of it.
that being said, i hardly think you can blame NASCAR for their demise. CART has been going down for a long time now. a long time. frankly, i'm surprised they've even made it this far. its too bad, it [i]used[/i] to be a good series. now its a joke. its like lame horse, it just needs to be put out of its misery.
personally, i don't see ALMS having any problems. they have a consistant fan base in the upscale racing community. there may not be alot of people but they have money ;) as for people like us, ratings must be going up. a few years ago you were lucky to even hear mention of it on tv, now they cover it quite a bit. besides, the teams have to do something with their Le Mans cars for the other 364 days of the year ;)
that being said, i hardly think you can blame NASCAR for their demise. CART has been going down for a long time now. a long time. frankly, i'm surprised they've even made it this far. its too bad, it [i]used[/i] to be a good series. now its a joke. its like lame horse, it just needs to be put out of its misery.
personally, i don't see ALMS having any problems. they have a consistant fan base in the upscale racing community. there may not be alot of people but they have money ;) as for people like us, ratings must be going up. a few years ago you were lucky to even hear mention of it on tv, now they cover it quite a bit. besides, the teams have to do something with their Le Mans cars for the other 364 days of the year ;)
| dmitrik4 | 06-18-2003 12:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ITWRX4ME [/i]
[B]
Me? I still don't get it. Neither series holds much sway with me because oval track racing is just mind numbing. Sometimes I'll tune in to a NASCAR race just because there's nothing on but golf(I only have antennae reception). But I usually fall asleep.
[/B][/QUOTE]
ok, you don't like oval racing...so why don't you like CART? they only run a few ovals, but mainly road courses.
IRL is the open-wheel oval series, not CART.
[B]
Me? I still don't get it. Neither series holds much sway with me because oval track racing is just mind numbing. Sometimes I'll tune in to a NASCAR race just because there's nothing on but golf(I only have antennae reception). But I usually fall asleep.
[/B][/QUOTE]
ok, you don't like oval racing...so why don't you like CART? they only run a few ovals, but mainly road courses.
IRL is the open-wheel oval series, not CART.
| SCRAPPYDO | 06-18-2003 01:41 PM |
ooo ooo my turn...
Okay first I want to tackle the notion that NASCAR is hurting..HA, I say... HA again! How can a series that has 300 car fields, in WC, BUSCH, and TRUCKS (for the love of God why?) that race about 50 races a year, possibly be hurting. I have said it before, and I still hold true to my original belief. NASCAR long ago quit being anything resembling competitive motorsports. Lets look at the facts. Completely equal and ALMOST utterly unchanged engines since like 1970. Nearly identical tubular frame cars with identical sheet metal bodies on them to reduce any advantage what so ever to any manufacterer for good design. The same suspension geometry from one car to the other. Points system that gives points down to the last member of the pit crew. Rules in place to penalize any team/manufacturer who has an advantage to bring them back into the feild.
What NASCAR wants is not competitive racing, they want a large Peloton-like heard of metal advertising rolling around the track in a constantly visible array of color and noise....
But I am biased. When it is painfully obvious that the true meaning of racing is gone from NASCAR. Since day one, racing has been about proving ones product in front of a large audience of people to prove yours is superior. We have all heard of the saying..
"racing improves the breed"
This is completely untrue in NASCAR. The rules are set up in a way that makes it totally impossible for any of the technology (and I use that term very losely) in NASCAR to make its way into todays passenger cars. This is a sin that I cannot overlook or ignore.
Keep costs down, advertising money up. That is the NASCAR way. Its unavoidable that racing series need to make money, and I am sympathetic toward that. But when it becomes the basis by which every decision is governed, then any resemblance of competitive motorsports is lost...
So with that being said, I submit to my Subaru Brethern that NASCAR is in fact the WWF of racing, the Fast and the Furious of the competitive motorsports world.... all show and glamor,with no technical merit to speak of...
Which is of course okay, who would not want to have a audience of millions see their brand for 2 hours every weekend for practically every weekend of the year...
Just my 2 cents..
SCRAPPYDO
Okay first I want to tackle the notion that NASCAR is hurting..HA, I say... HA again! How can a series that has 300 car fields, in WC, BUSCH, and TRUCKS (for the love of God why?) that race about 50 races a year, possibly be hurting. I have said it before, and I still hold true to my original belief. NASCAR long ago quit being anything resembling competitive motorsports. Lets look at the facts. Completely equal and ALMOST utterly unchanged engines since like 1970. Nearly identical tubular frame cars with identical sheet metal bodies on them to reduce any advantage what so ever to any manufacterer for good design. The same suspension geometry from one car to the other. Points system that gives points down to the last member of the pit crew. Rules in place to penalize any team/manufacturer who has an advantage to bring them back into the feild.
What NASCAR wants is not competitive racing, they want a large Peloton-like heard of metal advertising rolling around the track in a constantly visible array of color and noise....
But I am biased. When it is painfully obvious that the true meaning of racing is gone from NASCAR. Since day one, racing has been about proving ones product in front of a large audience of people to prove yours is superior. We have all heard of the saying..
"racing improves the breed"
This is completely untrue in NASCAR. The rules are set up in a way that makes it totally impossible for any of the technology (and I use that term very losely) in NASCAR to make its way into todays passenger cars. This is a sin that I cannot overlook or ignore.
Keep costs down, advertising money up. That is the NASCAR way. Its unavoidable that racing series need to make money, and I am sympathetic toward that. But when it becomes the basis by which every decision is governed, then any resemblance of competitive motorsports is lost...
So with that being said, I submit to my Subaru Brethern that NASCAR is in fact the WWF of racing, the Fast and the Furious of the competitive motorsports world.... all show and glamor,with no technical merit to speak of...
Which is of course okay, who would not want to have a audience of millions see their brand for 2 hours every weekend for practically every weekend of the year...
Just my 2 cents..
SCRAPPYDO
| 10th Warrior | 06-18-2003 02:08 PM |
[QUOTE]with no technical merit to speak of...[/QUOTE]
while not a NASCAR fan to any degree, its not easy to eek out the kind of performance they do with the rules they are limited to.
and i thought this thread was about CART, not NASCAR :lol:
while not a NASCAR fan to any degree, its not easy to eek out the kind of performance they do with the rules they are limited to.
and i thought this thread was about CART, not NASCAR :lol:
| SCRAPPYDO | 06-18-2003 03:03 PM |
Tis true, I sort of got off subject, for that I appologize. This subject always seems to bring the worst out in me.. haha
But to be honest, the secrets they are using are really time honored big V8 methods. Nothing really amazing to speak of...From what I have read about these engines they are well built (must be) and must hold together...but they do have 5.3 liters of diaplacement to work with...
Just a thought...
SCRAPPYDO
stephen
But to be honest, the secrets they are using are really time honored big V8 methods. Nothing really amazing to speak of...From what I have read about these engines they are well built (must be) and must hold together...but they do have 5.3 liters of diaplacement to work with...
Just a thought...
SCRAPPYDO
stephen
| 10th Warrior | 06-18-2003 04:16 PM |
[QUOTE]But to be honest, the secrets they are using are really time honored big V8 methods.[/QUOTE]
um, BS. why then, have hp numbers risen substantially in the last few years? if all this stuff is so well known and easy to do, how come output keeps increasing? sure, they have a big V8 to play with. that has pushrods. oh, and lets not forget that NASCAR mandates weights for most every part of the engine. serious money goes into the development of those cars/engine. sure, its not like F1 and it has nothing to do with any cars anyone drives on the street but don't discount their engineering abilities. at the trading paint deal, Gordon in his own car, on a new track with no doubt a very safe setup, was 2 seconds faster then the pole for the ferrari challenge there last year. a F360 is chalk full of techie goodness but is slower, even though it weighs less. really, if you want to rip on NASCAR so bad, make fun of the weight. no self respecting racecar should weigh that much :lol:
um, BS. why then, have hp numbers risen substantially in the last few years? if all this stuff is so well known and easy to do, how come output keeps increasing? sure, they have a big V8 to play with. that has pushrods. oh, and lets not forget that NASCAR mandates weights for most every part of the engine. serious money goes into the development of those cars/engine. sure, its not like F1 and it has nothing to do with any cars anyone drives on the street but don't discount their engineering abilities. at the trading paint deal, Gordon in his own car, on a new track with no doubt a very safe setup, was 2 seconds faster then the pole for the ferrari challenge there last year. a F360 is chalk full of techie goodness but is slower, even though it weighs less. really, if you want to rip on NASCAR so bad, make fun of the weight. no self respecting racecar should weigh that much :lol:
| SCRAPPYDO | 06-18-2003 05:01 PM |
800 HP is just not that impressive to me considering that I had a 5.7 liter in my Old 78 Z28 that dynoed at 527 HP with store bought parts... sure its bigger and its roughly 275 HP short.. but the point it is that 800 HP out of a V8 just does not have the prowess of 900 HP out of a 3 liter V10...
we we are really not discussing that...as far as engineering that goes into an NASCAR engine...I will never say that no engineering is involved. Pushrod engines for some reason are frowned upon, but they are one part of an EXTREMELY well developed engine (look at the Z06). My point being that if all I did was build lawnmower engines for 20 years, the same engine, I could figure out ways to make more HP year after year. I would chalk up a fair amount of that power creep to the optimization of old tricks. Which is nothing to sneeze at, but not exaclty rocket science. I totally understand that making more HP than the next guy within the same rules is admirable, but it depends who is cheating or bending the rules more...
As for the F360 speed comparo.. that is really not an apples to apples. You are compareing a purpose built race car to production car turned race car. There is a difference. Although granted a Ferrari is a better starting point than most cars :lol:
The HP difference, though, is enourmous between the two.
I suppose most of my prejudice is based on the fact that I am an engineer, and see the evolution of design and pushing the limits of what is mechanical and physically possible bow to the technology of F1 and WRC type cars as the pinnacle of motorsports. Carbs and distributers are dinosaurs at this point, they had their place and time, but holding on to what is old is not always a good thing.
Let the sport evolve. Let the manufacturers produce better product through developement. That is all I am asking...
A toyota corrola as more technology than a Winston Cup car. That is sad.
SCRAPPYDO
we we are really not discussing that...as far as engineering that goes into an NASCAR engine...I will never say that no engineering is involved. Pushrod engines for some reason are frowned upon, but they are one part of an EXTREMELY well developed engine (look at the Z06). My point being that if all I did was build lawnmower engines for 20 years, the same engine, I could figure out ways to make more HP year after year. I would chalk up a fair amount of that power creep to the optimization of old tricks. Which is nothing to sneeze at, but not exaclty rocket science. I totally understand that making more HP than the next guy within the same rules is admirable, but it depends who is cheating or bending the rules more...
As for the F360 speed comparo.. that is really not an apples to apples. You are compareing a purpose built race car to production car turned race car. There is a difference. Although granted a Ferrari is a better starting point than most cars :lol:
The HP difference, though, is enourmous between the two.
I suppose most of my prejudice is based on the fact that I am an engineer, and see the evolution of design and pushing the limits of what is mechanical and physically possible bow to the technology of F1 and WRC type cars as the pinnacle of motorsports. Carbs and distributers are dinosaurs at this point, they had their place and time, but holding on to what is old is not always a good thing.
Let the sport evolve. Let the manufacturers produce better product through developement. That is all I am asking...
A toyota corrola as more technology than a Winston Cup car. That is sad.
SCRAPPYDO
| Achilles38WRX | 06-18-2003 06:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SCRAPPYDO [/i]
[B]
But I am biased.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really?
So you dont like nascar, jump on the bandwagon with everyone else. This thread was about the financial demise of CART.
I realize the indy 500 isnt the show it used to be, but its still an event people readily recognize. Sponsors know this. With the end of CART, hopefully those drivers will give in and join the IRL, help fill the starting grid with cars, and the grandstands with fans. And it would be more fun to see IRL then race on roadcoarses as well as ovals.
[B]
But I am biased.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really?
So you dont like nascar, jump on the bandwagon with everyone else. This thread was about the financial demise of CART.
I realize the indy 500 isnt the show it used to be, but its still an event people readily recognize. Sponsors know this. With the end of CART, hopefully those drivers will give in and join the IRL, help fill the starting grid with cars, and the grandstands with fans. And it would be more fun to see IRL then race on roadcoarses as well as ovals.
| SteveS | 06-18-2003 07:27 PM |
[QUOTE]I submit ... that NASCAR is in fact the WWF of racing ...[/QUOTE]
I've been saying this for MANY years to my co-workers, some of whom are big NASCAR fans (i.e. attend numerous races per year).
For anyone lamenting the death of non-NASCAR race series, how many actually attend/watch the races? I went to the last couple of CART races at Nazareth before they quit coming due to low attendance. I'll be attending the F1 race again this year at Indy. Not picking on anyone, and maybe you all go, but it starts with butts in the seats and goes from there.
Steve
I've been saying this for MANY years to my co-workers, some of whom are big NASCAR fans (i.e. attend numerous races per year).
For anyone lamenting the death of non-NASCAR race series, how many actually attend/watch the races? I went to the last couple of CART races at Nazareth before they quit coming due to low attendance. I'll be attending the F1 race again this year at Indy. Not picking on anyone, and maybe you all go, but it starts with butts in the seats and goes from there.
Steve
| SCRAPPYDO | 06-19-2003 08:48 AM |
Well now I would not say that I am a bandwagon jumper. I like to think of myself as an self motivated NASCAR insulter. Motivated by my own self interests and opinions.
But that is besides the point... you are correct in that this thread has wandered a bit. The death of CART.
Personally its the ultra high technology I love about CHAMP cars versus IRL cars. Granted that IRL are still light years ahead of NASCAR, and if I had to choose one to watch it would not be split up by which cars I would want to watch. I want to watch the races with the ABSOLUTE minimum amount of ovals, tri ovals, high banks, short tracks, super speedways, etc.
CART while not lacking great talent, they are lacking great name recognition. That is what is killing them. Nobody has even heard of most of these drivers, except for a handful, and with the demise of the Players team, a couple more of them are gone.
I hope CART lives on and gets stronger, but I honestly dont know how to fix it!
SCRAPPYDO
stephen
But that is besides the point... you are correct in that this thread has wandered a bit. The death of CART.
Personally its the ultra high technology I love about CHAMP cars versus IRL cars. Granted that IRL are still light years ahead of NASCAR, and if I had to choose one to watch it would not be split up by which cars I would want to watch. I want to watch the races with the ABSOLUTE minimum amount of ovals, tri ovals, high banks, short tracks, super speedways, etc.
CART while not lacking great talent, they are lacking great name recognition. That is what is killing them. Nobody has even heard of most of these drivers, except for a handful, and with the demise of the Players team, a couple more of them are gone.
I hope CART lives on and gets stronger, but I honestly dont know how to fix it!
SCRAPPYDO
stephen
| 10th Warrior | 06-19-2003 01:37 PM |
[QUOTE]CART while not lacking great talent, they are lacking great name recognition. That is what is killing them. Nobody has even heard of most of these drivers, except for a handful, and with the demise of the Players team, a couple more of them are gone. [/QUOTE]
they don't have talent anymore. everyone who was fast has jumped ship. Jimmy Vasser is the only former champion still running the series. that's it. about 3/4 of the field are rookies. the main teams have left as well. so now they have no drivers, no teams, and spec engines. its done. that's a good thing. it should have been put out of its misery a couple of years ago.
they don't have talent anymore. everyone who was fast has jumped ship. Jimmy Vasser is the only former champion still running the series. that's it. about 3/4 of the field are rookies. the main teams have left as well. so now they have no drivers, no teams, and spec engines. its done. that's a good thing. it should have been put out of its misery a couple of years ago.
| rkkwan | 06-19-2003 02:31 PM |
It's not true that CART doens't have talents. They do have talents, but those are not household names, and people come in to CART - mainly from Mexico or S. America, but also Japan and now Europe - as a stepping stone to F1. They aren't American, and they don't see CART as a career goal (well, maybe except the Canadians like Paul Tracy). Look, even the International F3000 champion is running CART (Sebestian Bourdais), so there's definitely talent. But you think Bourdais' career goal is to entertain Amercian veiwers? Of coures not. Guess where he'll be next year if he can get a F1 ride - ANY F1 ride? Even with Minardi?
-Ray
-Ray
| fengshui-fu | 06-19-2003 03:42 PM |
I think we all would watch NASCAR if it made a return to its roots. Namely, BOOTLEGGING. :lol:
I mean who wouldn't pay to see a bunch of real family sedans (Monte Carlos, Intrepids, etc) line up, have officials put a case of moonshine in the trunk, and have each of the drivers haul ass over real country roads, being chased by the police, to deliver the shine to make a taxless profit. We could even award style points for successfully navigating wheat and corn fields.
Yeap, its no surprise we have a BUSCH as a sponsor. Alcohol has been paired up with NASCAR from the very beginning.
chris
EDIT: Sorry for being OT, I was just getting into CART too. I hope it lasts at least a little while longer. Seems like a great series.
I mean who wouldn't pay to see a bunch of real family sedans (Monte Carlos, Intrepids, etc) line up, have officials put a case of moonshine in the trunk, and have each of the drivers haul ass over real country roads, being chased by the police, to deliver the shine to make a taxless profit. We could even award style points for successfully navigating wheat and corn fields.
Yeap, its no surprise we have a BUSCH as a sponsor. Alcohol has been paired up with NASCAR from the very beginning.
chris
EDIT: Sorry for being OT, I was just getting into CART too. I hope it lasts at least a little while longer. Seems like a great series.
| Chromer | 06-19-2003 05:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fengshui-fu [/i]
[B]I think we all would watch NASCAR if it made a return to its roots. Namely, BOOTLEGGING. :lol:
I mean who wouldn't pay to see a bunch of real family sedans (Monte Carlos, Intrepids, etc) line up, have officials put a case of moonshine in the trunk, and have each of the drivers haul ass over real country roads, [/B][/QUOTE]
We have one of those series. Okay, the moonshine is a fuel cell of 100 octane... The only problem is that the SCCA seems to be dead-set against anyone actually going to WATCH a Pro-Rally...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fengshui-fu [/i]
[B]Personally its the ultra high technology I love about CHAMP cars versus IRL [/B][/quote]
Um... IIRC, everyone in CART uses the same Ford engine and there is a choice of two chassis, one of which isn't in development any more. Without the competition between different engine and chassis builders, why bother improving the technology?
[B]I think we all would watch NASCAR if it made a return to its roots. Namely, BOOTLEGGING. :lol:
I mean who wouldn't pay to see a bunch of real family sedans (Monte Carlos, Intrepids, etc) line up, have officials put a case of moonshine in the trunk, and have each of the drivers haul ass over real country roads, [/B][/QUOTE]
We have one of those series. Okay, the moonshine is a fuel cell of 100 octane... The only problem is that the SCCA seems to be dead-set against anyone actually going to WATCH a Pro-Rally...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fengshui-fu [/i]
[B]Personally its the ultra high technology I love about CHAMP cars versus IRL [/B][/quote]
Um... IIRC, everyone in CART uses the same Ford engine and there is a choice of two chassis, one of which isn't in development any more. Without the competition between different engine and chassis builders, why bother improving the technology?
| Orbiter | 06-19-2003 08:16 PM |
Rumors say there will be a big announcement this weekend in Portland with some live sattelite feeds from Europe..
dare we say the Eccelstone/Forsythe deal is done?? :)
dare we say the Eccelstone/Forsythe deal is done?? :)
| A_Train | 06-19-2003 09:16 PM |
Without deep pocketed sponsors, its hard to keep a racing series on the cutting edge of technology (i.e. spec engines). Without cutting edge technology pushing the envelope, champ cars have started to loose their entertainment value. CART just needs a shot in the arm to stop the downward spiral.
| Orbiter | 06-20-2003 12:56 AM |
most ppl thought CART was doomed years ago.. yet they are still here today
the tv package needs a lot of work but race attendance is still one of CARTs best assets.. unlike IRL
they managed to get a full 19 car field this year when no one said it was possible.
there will be a new title sponsor by 04... .. we will see v10s with X amount of engine manufacturers by 05... the rebuilding has begun and CART will live on and experience glory once again..
and p.s. CART being for sale is nothing new .. just recently been spread to all the big media outlets
the tv package needs a lot of work but race attendance is still one of CARTs best assets.. unlike IRL
they managed to get a full 19 car field this year when no one said it was possible.
there will be a new title sponsor by 04... .. we will see v10s with X amount of engine manufacturers by 05... the rebuilding has begun and CART will live on and experience glory once again..
and p.s. CART being for sale is nothing new .. just recently been spread to all the big media outlets
| Opie | 06-20-2003 09:53 AM |
Re: CART up for sale
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by HoRo1 [/i]
[B]Anybody know if American Le Mans series is making money? Just how much damage is NASCAR doing to other forms of racing? [/B][/QUOTE]
Ummm, the ALMS is funded by NASCAR...:D
[B]Anybody know if American Le Mans series is making money? Just how much damage is NASCAR doing to other forms of racing? [/B][/QUOTE]
Ummm, the ALMS is funded by NASCAR...:D
| HoRo1 | 06-20-2003 01:38 PM |
Re: Re: CART up for sale
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Opie [/i]
[B]
Ummm, the ALMS is funded by NASCAR...:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Seriously?
Why would NASCAR fund ALMS?
[B]
Ummm, the ALMS is funded by NASCAR...:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Seriously?
Why would NASCAR fund ALMS?
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