| Lafora | 11-12-2002 03:46 AM |
downshift choices. row? or not
�
�
this of course doens't apply to you lucky ducks with sequential gear boxes in your cars.
but, for the rest of us who aren't so lucky
do you row gears? or no.
ie, do you go straight from say 5 - 2? or from 5-4-3-2.
why? and what's the advantage and disadvantage of each method.
read Carroll Smith's book..and he's a strong advocate of not rowing.
i watch some japanese videos, and everyone rows..
wonder why that is.
thx guys and gals :)
but, for the rest of us who aren't so lucky
do you row gears? or no.
ie, do you go straight from say 5 - 2? or from 5-4-3-2.
why? and what's the advantage and disadvantage of each method.
read Carroll Smith's book..and he's a strong advocate of not rowing.
i watch some japanese videos, and everyone rows..
wonder why that is.
thx guys and gals :)
| ellisnc | 11-12-2002 06:27 AM |
typically, I won't go from like 5-4 but most of the time 5-3-2. But that's on the street. On a track I'll row. Double clutch all of the shifts too ;)
| HoRo1 | 11-12-2002 06:54 AM |
I go 5 - 2.
Going down through the gears is a technique that dates back to when engine braking was vital because old drum brakes or even driveshaft brakes (!) were used. Frankly, you're just giving yourself an unnecessary task shifting down through the gears - the more that you do, the greater your chance of error.
Going down through the gears is a technique that dates back to when engine braking was vital because old drum brakes or even driveshaft brakes (!) were used. Frankly, you're just giving yourself an unnecessary task shifting down through the gears - the more that you do, the greater your chance of error.
| elgorey | 11-12-2002 10:03 AM |
definately 5-2 (or 4-2, 5-3 which for me is more frequent)
less motion, less of a chance to screw it up. just make sure you shift late enough and give it a good blip.
less motion, less of a chance to screw it up. just make sure you shift late enough and give it a good blip.
| akuhner | 11-12-2002 12:43 PM |
If you are using your engine to slow the car down, row, but that's a bad idea - that's what brakes are for! I go from what ever gear I'm in, to what ever gear I need coming out of the turn. In Rally-X that's generally 2nd to 1st! :D
| [email�protected] | 11-12-2002 01:22 PM |
5-2. I heard a quote from Jackie Stewart once about this subject and he said to just go to the gear you want because:
"brake pads are a lot cheaper than engines and transmissions."
I agree.
When you see racing footage where the driver is going down through the gears it is usually because they have a sequential gearbox which requires this because there is no other way. You will sometimes see drivers go down through the gears with H pattern boxes, but its usually because of some type of habit they have developed over the years, its not necessary.
Just make sure when you go from one gear to the other that you match revs to make the shift much smoother.
"brake pads are a lot cheaper than engines and transmissions."
I agree.
When you see racing footage where the driver is going down through the gears it is usually because they have a sequential gearbox which requires this because there is no other way. You will sometimes see drivers go down through the gears with H pattern boxes, but its usually because of some type of habit they have developed over the years, its not necessary.
Just make sure when you go from one gear to the other that you match revs to make the shift much smoother.
| Lafora | 11-12-2002 02:38 PM |
i think 4 responses is enough to persuade my friend :) thx ladies and gents.
he's a big fan of rowing..i'm not. just the fact tha tyou have more chances of screwing up ur shifts is enough for me not to row, :)
he's a big fan of rowing..i'm not. just the fact tha tyou have more chances of screwing up ur shifts is enough for me not to row, :)
| rkkwan | 11-12-2002 03:45 PM |
I've only driven on one track that requires a 2-gear downshift on the WRX. That's Turn 3 at New Hampshire International when running the South Oval. What I found myself doing is "clutch in, row through 3rd into 2nd, blip and clutch out". At first, I was clutching out at 3rd, which does close-to-nothing in slowing the car down. But I found rowing into 3rd then 2nd seem a more natural motion in my car (with the Subaru short-shifter) than doing the U-turn from 4th to 2nd.
I only did one day there, so I might change my mind and habit in the future.
-Ray
I only did one day there, so I might change my mind and habit in the future.
-Ray
| alfaguy | 11-12-2002 04:35 PM |
Regardless of whether you are using the engine to slow the car down or not, it's a lot less wear on the synchros to downshift sequentially than to drop a number of gears.
On a new car with good synchros, you won't really notice a difference. With worn synchros, you often will not be able to downshift more than one gear without precise rev-matching and double-clutching.
On a new car with good synchros, you won't really notice a difference. With worn synchros, you often will not be able to downshift more than one gear without precise rev-matching and double-clutching.
| HoRo1 | 11-12-2002 05:07 PM |
Well, he drives an Alfa, so he knows all about worn synchros. :lol: :eek: :lol:
| alfaguy | 11-12-2002 05:20 PM |
Truer words have never been spoken :)
Actually, there's not anything wrong with Alfa synchros - it's the gears that have too much mass and munch through them pretty fast if you're not good about your shifting.
I just got a ex-DTM transaxle for my Milano - lightened and balanced gears and a tightened LSD. Goodbye balky synchros!
Actually, there's not anything wrong with Alfa synchros - it's the gears that have too much mass and munch through them pretty fast if you're not good about your shifting.
I just got a ex-DTM transaxle for my Milano - lightened and balanced gears and a tightened LSD. Goodbye balky synchros!
| Lafora | 11-12-2002 06:44 PM |
well his car and mine have 120 and 90k on em respectively. so it's hardly new by any means :D
it's not grandpa old..but it's not fresh either..
good thing i have a backup TRD tranny w/ bellhousing waiting for me in case stuff happens :)
it's not grandpa old..but it's not fresh either..
good thing i have a backup TRD tranny w/ bellhousing waiting for me in case stuff happens :)
| akuhner | 11-13-2002 08:33 AM |
How is it more work on the syncros to skip gears if you are rev-matching? I'm assuming everyone is double clutching and rev-matching every down shift.
| alfaguy | 11-13-2002 11:55 AM |
I would not make that assumption. In fact, I would assume most people aren't, but maybe I'm wrong.
But you are correct, of course, with proper rev-matching there is virtually no wear on the synchros, regardless of what gear you are coming from.
But you are correct, of course, with proper rev-matching there is virtually no wear on the synchros, regardless of what gear you are coming from.
| GarySheehan | 11-13-2002 11:56 AM |
Rowing through the gears gives you LESS opportunity for screwing up. We're talking about a driver that has the skill to heel-toe and double-clutch well, as in it is second nature and nearly a subconscious action. Going through each gear will ensure you match your revs properly getting down to the appropriate gear.
Skipping gears gives you a higher risk for mismatching revs and upsetting the car at a crucial time.
I typically skip gears down to second. Just seems a little faster to me because I spend more brain money on threshold braking for longer. Occassionally, I will row through the gears on the same corner. I don't know why. Something at the time must be messing up my mojo. I'll have to think about it some more. In the long video I put up [URL=http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Las_Vegas_Full_Race.wmv]HERE,[/URL] coming out of the long right hand sweeper into the tight right hand 2nd corner, I usually skip. But, if you watch enough of the video, you'll hear a few 4-3-2 shifts.
By the way, the ONLY place I've ever had our USTCC WRX up to 5th gear is on Road America, which is over 4 miles long. Where the heck are you guys doing 5-2 shifts?!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Skipping gears gives you a higher risk for mismatching revs and upsetting the car at a crucial time.
I typically skip gears down to second. Just seems a little faster to me because I spend more brain money on threshold braking for longer. Occassionally, I will row through the gears on the same corner. I don't know why. Something at the time must be messing up my mojo. I'll have to think about it some more. In the long video I put up [URL=http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Las_Vegas_Full_Race.wmv]HERE,[/URL] coming out of the long right hand sweeper into the tight right hand 2nd corner, I usually skip. But, if you watch enough of the video, you'll hear a few 4-3-2 shifts.
By the way, the ONLY place I've ever had our USTCC WRX up to 5th gear is on Road America, which is over 4 miles long. Where the heck are you guys doing 5-2 shifts?!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| elgorey | 11-13-2002 01:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]By the way, the ONLY place I've ever had our USTCC WRX up to 5th gear is on Road America, which is over 4 miles long. Where the heck are you guys doing 5-2 shifts?!
[/B][/QUOTE]
Summit Point and VIR.
You didnt go into 5th on the main straight at Summit?
[B]By the way, the ONLY place I've ever had our USTCC WRX up to 5th gear is on Road America, which is over 4 miles long. Where the heck are you guys doing 5-2 shifts?!
[/B][/QUOTE]
Summit Point and VIR.
You didnt go into 5th on the main straight at Summit?
| Lafora | 11-13-2002 01:18 PM |
the fifth gear on my car is 0.86 : 1
but
the final drive on my car is 4.8: 1
don't need a lot of room for me to get up to 5th :p
but
the final drive on my car is 4.8: 1
don't need a lot of room for me to get up to 5th :p
| rkkwan | 11-13-2002 02:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]
Summit Point and VIR.
You didnt go into 5th on the main straight at Summit? [/B][/QUOTE]
You must be kidding. A relatively stock WRX tops out at around 117-120mph at most race tracks. Which is still in 4th gear, which redlines at around 128mph (according to R&T). I guess not even Gary's car can get to that speed with his relatively stock engine.
-Ray
[B]
Summit Point and VIR.
You didnt go into 5th on the main straight at Summit? [/B][/QUOTE]
You must be kidding. A relatively stock WRX tops out at around 117-120mph at most race tracks. Which is still in 4th gear, which redlines at around 128mph (according to R&T). I guess not even Gary's car can get to that speed with his relatively stock engine.
-Ray
| GarySheehan | 11-13-2002 03:01 PM |
Not at Summit Point, I didn't.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| alfaguy | 11-13-2002 03:18 PM |
Hey Gary,
If you don't mind me asking, what speeds were you seeing coming into turn 12 (Canda Corner) at Road America?
Man, I miss running at that track.
If you don't mind me asking, what speeds were you seeing coming into turn 12 (Canda Corner) at Road America?
Man, I miss running at that track.
| elgorey | 11-13-2002 03:33 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]You must be kidding. A relatively stock WRX tops out at around 117-120mph at most race tracks. [/B][/QUOTE]
:confused: um...no not kidding. A good run out of 10 at Summit and I will get into 5th late down the straight. (and its a 5-3 shift btw) As I approach the braking zone a couple times I have glanced down and been going through 125. I could probably leave it in 4th and hit the rev-limiter just before the braking zone, but I short shift at about 6.5k since the car looses boost after 6k, and I hate hitting the limiter.
btw, I am on 225/45/17 so nothing wierd with my gear ratios,
and I have no boost, chip, or turbo mods. just exhaust and suspension, and I run falken tires.
[B]You must be kidding. A relatively stock WRX tops out at around 117-120mph at most race tracks. [/B][/QUOTE]
:confused: um...no not kidding. A good run out of 10 at Summit and I will get into 5th late down the straight. (and its a 5-3 shift btw) As I approach the braking zone a couple times I have glanced down and been going through 125. I could probably leave it in 4th and hit the rev-limiter just before the braking zone, but I short shift at about 6.5k since the car looses boost after 6k, and I hate hitting the limiter.
btw, I am on 225/45/17 so nothing wierd with my gear ratios,
and I have no boost, chip, or turbo mods. just exhaust and suspension, and I run falken tires.
| subyguy2 | 11-13-2002 03:45 PM |
rkkwan, you are wrong. I was riding with evan for two heats, I can verify that he was at about about 122-124 on the speedo, with the extra weight of me. Plus, his tires are a little taller than stock, making his speedo is read lower than he is actually travelling, making his speed 125-127.
Chris.
Chris.
| GarySheehan | 11-13-2002 03:56 PM |
What lap times were you guys running?
The best we could do there was a 1:25.455.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember getting into 5th at Summit.
We were barely getting into 5th at Road America up around 130mph.
BTW, we are running 225/45 x 17" Hoosiers.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
The best we could do there was a 1:25.455.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember getting into 5th at Summit.
We were barely getting into 5th at Road America up around 130mph.
BTW, we are running 225/45 x 17" Hoosiers.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| elgorey | 11-13-2002 04:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]What lap times were you guys running?
The best we could do there was a 1:25.455.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember getting into 5th at Summit.
BTW, we are running 225/45 x 17" Hoosiers.
[/B][/QUOTE]
When I timed a few laps I ran 1:31s
so you are definately going a whole lot faster than I am, especially since I am on streets and full weight, and Im no pro driver either! :) How much ballast did you run at summit and did you have to run a restrictor? Just curious
Like I said I short shift a little so that is probably the main reason I am in 5th and you are not. Are you allowed to run full boost to redline or do you have to let the ecu control boost?
I would expect that with your hoosiers you could carry a ton of speed through 10 and be well past 130 by the end of the straight. Do you think that big wing could create too much drag? or that extra weight effects things?
My post was mainly in response to the 117-120 "top speed" comment.
btw, 1:25s at Summit is fast! Its not a horsepower track, as shown by the similar laptimes of honda-challenge cars and 350hp American Iron cars.
There was a jaguar XJ220-R there on 335 hoosiers, which only ran 1:19.4
[URL=http://www.virclub.com]VIR[/URL] is a very long, very fast track. Trans-am ran there for the first time this year, and they said it is the fastest track they race on. Im sure you will be well into 5th if you ever run the full course there.
[B]What lap times were you guys running?
The best we could do there was a 1:25.455.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember getting into 5th at Summit.
BTW, we are running 225/45 x 17" Hoosiers.
[/B][/QUOTE]
When I timed a few laps I ran 1:31s
so you are definately going a whole lot faster than I am, especially since I am on streets and full weight, and Im no pro driver either! :) How much ballast did you run at summit and did you have to run a restrictor? Just curious
Like I said I short shift a little so that is probably the main reason I am in 5th and you are not. Are you allowed to run full boost to redline or do you have to let the ecu control boost?
I would expect that with your hoosiers you could carry a ton of speed through 10 and be well past 130 by the end of the straight. Do you think that big wing could create too much drag? or that extra weight effects things?
My post was mainly in response to the 117-120 "top speed" comment.
btw, 1:25s at Summit is fast! Its not a horsepower track, as shown by the similar laptimes of honda-challenge cars and 350hp American Iron cars.
There was a jaguar XJ220-R there on 335 hoosiers, which only ran 1:19.4
[URL=http://www.virclub.com]VIR[/URL] is a very long, very fast track. Trans-am ran there for the first time this year, and they said it is the fastest track they race on. Im sure you will be well into 5th if you ever run the full course there.
| Lafora | 11-13-2002 04:31 PM |
his wing + tires prolly lets him go around the corners faster (alot faster)
don't think he'll loose that much straight line speed to make a difference with the wing..but he'll definitely get em all back in the corners
don't think he'll loose that much straight line speed to make a difference with the wing..but he'll definitely get em all back in the corners
| rkkwan | 11-13-2002 06:01 PM |
Well, maybe I just suck - But I didn't break 115-117 during my first time at Summit Point, and I ran 1:37s with S-03s. Pat Olsen drove his sister's WRX with RE92, and ran 1:35s, also without getting into 5th gear. Steve S also ran 1:35 in this RS-T, and he topped out at 120mph.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257173&highlight=summit+point[/url]
There seems to be a huge disconnect here. Maybe you're so much faster out of the corners. But then I'd expect you be also more than 4 sec faster than Pat Olsen in RE92s.
I've run the VIR full course this past spring. I had much less experience then, but also didn't shift into 5th. And my conservation with Pat Olsen also suggest he didn't either, again in his sister's WRX with T1-S.
So, while I'm not the fastest out of corners, my experience seem to be pretty consistent with other drivers that I've gone to track day with.
-Ray
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257173&highlight=summit+point[/url]
There seems to be a huge disconnect here. Maybe you're so much faster out of the corners. But then I'd expect you be also more than 4 sec faster than Pat Olsen in RE92s.
I've run the VIR full course this past spring. I had much less experience then, but also didn't shift into 5th. And my conservation with Pat Olsen also suggest he didn't either, again in his sister's WRX with T1-S.
So, while I'm not the fastest out of corners, my experience seem to be pretty consistent with other drivers that I've gone to track day with.
-Ray
| elgorey | 11-13-2002 06:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]
Maybe you're so much faster out of the corners. But then I'd expect you be also more than 4 sec faster than Pat Olsen in RE92s.[/quote]4 seconds is a very long time on track, so I wouldnt say I should be more than 4 sec faster. I ran 4 seconds slower than a corvette on hoosiers at BeaveRun, and he was noticably faster. (I rode with him)
I do not have vast amounts of experience on track, (proabably similar to you) so Im not trying to pass myself off as some super driver or anything here.
[quote]
I've run the VIR full course this past spring. I had much less experience then, but also didn't shift into 5th. And my conservation with Pat Olsen also suggest he didn't either[/QUOTE]
I think we solved this one when I said I short shift at around 6.5 or so. I [i]could[/i] leave it in 4th and maybe not top out, but it may (or may not) be slower due to the lower boost. In school conditions I would rather put it in 5th than risk bouncing off the rev limiter. (in addition the rev limiter is past redline and not too great for the car)
My basic point is just that 117-120 is not the fastest a wrx can go on track.
Remember the original topic of this thread was just downshifting multiple gears. the [i]reason[/i] for me being iin 5th doesnt really matter. Maybe I like to shift into 5th at 90mph. :p So I can get accustomed to having no power, to prepare for my honda race car :lol:
[B]
Maybe you're so much faster out of the corners. But then I'd expect you be also more than 4 sec faster than Pat Olsen in RE92s.[/quote]4 seconds is a very long time on track, so I wouldnt say I should be more than 4 sec faster. I ran 4 seconds slower than a corvette on hoosiers at BeaveRun, and he was noticably faster. (I rode with him)
I do not have vast amounts of experience on track, (proabably similar to you) so Im not trying to pass myself off as some super driver or anything here.
[quote]
I've run the VIR full course this past spring. I had much less experience then, but also didn't shift into 5th. And my conservation with Pat Olsen also suggest he didn't either[/QUOTE]
I think we solved this one when I said I short shift at around 6.5 or so. I [i]could[/i] leave it in 4th and maybe not top out, but it may (or may not) be slower due to the lower boost. In school conditions I would rather put it in 5th than risk bouncing off the rev limiter. (in addition the rev limiter is past redline and not too great for the car)
My basic point is just that 117-120 is not the fastest a wrx can go on track.
Remember the original topic of this thread was just downshifting multiple gears. the [i]reason[/i] for me being iin 5th doesnt really matter. Maybe I like to shift into 5th at 90mph. :p So I can get accustomed to having no power, to prepare for my honda race car :lol:
| ellisnc | 11-13-2002 09:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by alfaguy [/i]
[B]I would not make that assumption. In fact, I would assume most people aren't, but maybe I'm wrong.
But you are correct, of course, with proper rev-matching there is virtually no wear on the synchros, regardless of what gear you are coming from. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's right... pay attention to track videos you see around here... you'd think people didn't know what a heel-toe downshift was.
Even some of the good drivers I know can't pull off repetitive double-clutched heel-toe downshifts. I think there is a difference between a good driver and the coordination it takes to double clutch every downshift. While I don't claim to be the best driver around as far as pure speed goes, I do have the coordination to rip off a "rowed" downshift as you guys are calling it and double clutch every gear change while doing so.
Rev matching and double clutching are not the same thing. You rev match while you double clutch but they're not the same. In my mind rev matching is matching engine speed with the speed of the driveshaft through gearing the purpose of which is to not upset the car under braking. Double clutching is matching gear speed with shaft speed the purpose of which is only really valuable for missions without synchromesh or for doing things like getting the mission to go into 2nd gear at 65mph. Start downshifting into 2nd at high speed like stated previously and see how long it takes before that synchro wears out and the box starts to grind. Doesn't take long.
The reasons I double clutch everything now and row the gears all the time are several. Number 1 is the cars I drive all the time. One is the WRX which has a pretty recalcitrant shifter for the most part so I double clutch it all the time just because it's easier to downshift. Two is a 1985 AE86 with the original mission in it which is an older box so it's a little worn and works better when double clutched. Three is a company lease car which is an MT Civic that I can just beat on with basically no conciquence.
Number 2 is because I enjoy it and honestly it takes me more effort and thought to just downshift without double clutching than it does when doing it.
Guys it's a bad assumption to make that just because something takes more effort for you to do and you can't make the car do what you want smoothly that it's something that is unnecessary and no one knows how to do it. I think a lot of people haven't ridden in a car with someone who REALLY knows how to drive and therefore think more highly of themselves as drivers than they ought. I'm not saying everyone... personally I'm just starting to get a chance to ride with some very good drivers and it's astonishing to see the difference in capability between myself and them. Whether this goes for rowing down the gears, heel-toeing, double clutching, whatever...
Just please stop trying to rationalize the reasons why you don't do things. You don't double clutch because the gearbox has synchomesh while somewhat true doesn't mean that it doesn't work a whole lot better when it's done properly. You possibly just haven't felt what it's like to do it properly. The fact of the matter is mechanically the box will work better if you do. Whether or not you can is the actual question.
Rowing is a personal choice it seems though and whether you do it or not is a preference. I like to do it because I enjoy shifting (never owned an AT) and one very good thing about it is I always know what gear I'm going to go into. There's no guessing and for me that's less a chance I'll make a serious error.
Please take this post as respectfully as possible... I'm not trying to rip into anyone or call anyone out, just please recognize that no one around here is the be all end all of driving skill. (Not just talking to people in this thread either)
[B]I would not make that assumption. In fact, I would assume most people aren't, but maybe I'm wrong.
But you are correct, of course, with proper rev-matching there is virtually no wear on the synchros, regardless of what gear you are coming from. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's right... pay attention to track videos you see around here... you'd think people didn't know what a heel-toe downshift was.
Even some of the good drivers I know can't pull off repetitive double-clutched heel-toe downshifts. I think there is a difference between a good driver and the coordination it takes to double clutch every downshift. While I don't claim to be the best driver around as far as pure speed goes, I do have the coordination to rip off a "rowed" downshift as you guys are calling it and double clutch every gear change while doing so.
Rev matching and double clutching are not the same thing. You rev match while you double clutch but they're not the same. In my mind rev matching is matching engine speed with the speed of the driveshaft through gearing the purpose of which is to not upset the car under braking. Double clutching is matching gear speed with shaft speed the purpose of which is only really valuable for missions without synchromesh or for doing things like getting the mission to go into 2nd gear at 65mph. Start downshifting into 2nd at high speed like stated previously and see how long it takes before that synchro wears out and the box starts to grind. Doesn't take long.
The reasons I double clutch everything now and row the gears all the time are several. Number 1 is the cars I drive all the time. One is the WRX which has a pretty recalcitrant shifter for the most part so I double clutch it all the time just because it's easier to downshift. Two is a 1985 AE86 with the original mission in it which is an older box so it's a little worn and works better when double clutched. Three is a company lease car which is an MT Civic that I can just beat on with basically no conciquence.
Number 2 is because I enjoy it and honestly it takes me more effort and thought to just downshift without double clutching than it does when doing it.
Guys it's a bad assumption to make that just because something takes more effort for you to do and you can't make the car do what you want smoothly that it's something that is unnecessary and no one knows how to do it. I think a lot of people haven't ridden in a car with someone who REALLY knows how to drive and therefore think more highly of themselves as drivers than they ought. I'm not saying everyone... personally I'm just starting to get a chance to ride with some very good drivers and it's astonishing to see the difference in capability between myself and them. Whether this goes for rowing down the gears, heel-toeing, double clutching, whatever...
Just please stop trying to rationalize the reasons why you don't do things. You don't double clutch because the gearbox has synchomesh while somewhat true doesn't mean that it doesn't work a whole lot better when it's done properly. You possibly just haven't felt what it's like to do it properly. The fact of the matter is mechanically the box will work better if you do. Whether or not you can is the actual question.
Rowing is a personal choice it seems though and whether you do it or not is a preference. I like to do it because I enjoy shifting (never owned an AT) and one very good thing about it is I always know what gear I'm going to go into. There's no guessing and for me that's less a chance I'll make a serious error.
Please take this post as respectfully as possible... I'm not trying to rip into anyone or call anyone out, just please recognize that no one around here is the be all end all of driving skill. (Not just talking to people in this thread either)
| IXLR8 | 11-14-2002 08:20 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]Well, maybe I just suck - But I didn't break 115-117 during my first time at Summit Point, and I ran 1:37s with S-03s. Pat Olsen drove his sister's WRX with RE92, and ran 1:35s, also without getting into 5th gear. Steve S also ran 1:35 in this RS-T, and he topped out at 120mph.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I doubt that you suck (although it's possible...) I spend a fair amount of time at Summit and to run 125 plus in a WRX is possible but pretty uncomfortable, especially for multiple laps. That's really pushing both turn 10 and the braking area in 1.
While 4 seconds a lap in race conditions is a lot... track days aren't racing. You're not preparing to similar rules and your objectives for the day (and even each lap) most likely aren't the same = way too many variables to really compare speeds/times/performance in anything other than a general way.
Your numbers sound very respectable.
[B]Well, maybe I just suck - But I didn't break 115-117 during my first time at Summit Point, and I ran 1:37s with S-03s. Pat Olsen drove his sister's WRX with RE92, and ran 1:35s, also without getting into 5th gear. Steve S also ran 1:35 in this RS-T, and he topped out at 120mph.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I doubt that you suck (although it's possible...) I spend a fair amount of time at Summit and to run 125 plus in a WRX is possible but pretty uncomfortable, especially for multiple laps. That's really pushing both turn 10 and the braking area in 1.
While 4 seconds a lap in race conditions is a lot... track days aren't racing. You're not preparing to similar rules and your objectives for the day (and even each lap) most likely aren't the same = way too many variables to really compare speeds/times/performance in anything other than a general way.
Your numbers sound very respectable.
| rkkwan | 11-14-2002 02:17 PM |
IXLR8 - Thanks for your kind words. I really need to go back to the same tracks to improve on my times. So far I had tried to go "sample" different tracks around the country, and haven't returned to the same track twice.
With most clubs, 2-days (7-8 sessions) of driving a new track limit what I can do. And my weakest parts are usually the fast corners, like Turn 10 at Summit, Turn 3 (Nascar Turn) at VIR, or Turns 1 & 2 at Mid-Ohio. The relatively soft stock springs of the WRX don't help matter too much either.
I think I've got 5-9 at Summit Point about right, so next time I'll concentrate on 3 and 10. :)
BTW, since this is originally about shifting, I wonder what gears do you guys use for 10 at Summit? I tried downshifting to 3rd, but that doesn't seem to help my speed much, so later, I just stayed in 4th. Need more time there to figure it out.
-Ray
With most clubs, 2-days (7-8 sessions) of driving a new track limit what I can do. And my weakest parts are usually the fast corners, like Turn 10 at Summit, Turn 3 (Nascar Turn) at VIR, or Turns 1 & 2 at Mid-Ohio. The relatively soft stock springs of the WRX don't help matter too much either.
I think I've got 5-9 at Summit Point about right, so next time I'll concentrate on 3 and 10. :)
BTW, since this is originally about shifting, I wonder what gears do you guys use for 10 at Summit? I tried downshifting to 3rd, but that doesn't seem to help my speed much, so later, I just stayed in 4th. Need more time there to figure it out.
-Ray
| elgorey | 11-14-2002 02:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]
I wonder what gears do you guys use for 10 at Summit? I tried downshifting to 3rd, but that doesn't seem to help my speed much, so later, I just stayed in 4th. [/B][/QUOTE]
Definately 4th. 10 is a lot faster than it looks. short braking zone, turn in and let it go out way out into the rumblies.
10 and 3 are definately the hardest corners. I have gained a lot of speed through 10, but I still dont have the balls for 3. A friend of mine wrecked his car there a couple weeks ago, which kind of freaked me out.
I only downshift twice on the whole track, 1 and 5.
Do you go down to 2nd at turn 5? I have found that 3 is much faster, and now im actually hitting redline right at track out of 9.
the carousel is fun :)
[B]
I wonder what gears do you guys use for 10 at Summit? I tried downshifting to 3rd, but that doesn't seem to help my speed much, so later, I just stayed in 4th. [/B][/QUOTE]
Definately 4th. 10 is a lot faster than it looks. short braking zone, turn in and let it go out way out into the rumblies.
10 and 3 are definately the hardest corners. I have gained a lot of speed through 10, but I still dont have the balls for 3. A friend of mine wrecked his car there a couple weeks ago, which kind of freaked me out.
I only downshift twice on the whole track, 1 and 5.
Do you go down to 2nd at turn 5? I have found that 3 is much faster, and now im actually hitting redline right at track out of 9.
the carousel is fun :)
| rkkwan | 11-14-2002 02:57 PM |
3rd gear all around the track, except in 4th from Turn 9 to Turn 1. I believe I was riding the redline at Turn 4 in 3rd gear. Which is very different from VIR, when I shifted like 12 times around the track :)
Another problem I had at Summit last time was that I usually get caught up in traffic around the slow part. And since the straight between 9 and 10 isn't that long, I often don't have time/room to get back to the left for 10 after passing. That limited my experience to take 10 quickly and consistently.
-Ray
Another problem I had at Summit last time was that I usually get caught up in traffic around the slow part. And since the straight between 9 and 10 isn't that long, I often don't have time/room to get back to the left for 10 after passing. That limited my experience to take 10 quickly and consistently.
-Ray
| elgorey | 11-14-2002 03:05 PM |
definately. crowded tracks suck. :( you arent in 4th between 2 and 5?
I try to limit shifts as much as I can, one of the things they tell you to work on. I think at VIR I downshift.....at 1, 4, 11,11a, and 14 I have seen other people downshift at 10, but thats usually because of shorter gearing.
are you going to Audi club VIR dec 7-8?
I try to limit shifts as much as I can, one of the things they tell you to work on. I think at VIR I downshift.....at 1, 4, 11,11a, and 14 I have seen other people downshift at 10, but thats usually because of shorter gearing.
are you going to Audi club VIR dec 7-8?
| rkkwan | 11-14-2002 03:14 PM |
No, I was in 3rd between 2 and 5, because I was still pretty slow at 3. I believe I was also at the rev limiter right before slowing for 3. Next time I'll give 4th gear a try. :)
Not going to VIR this time. It's quite a haul for us from New England. But Emilio Acre (forgot his screen name, but he was with Mark Fitz and Wayne Chin at One Lap this year) will be there.
At VIR, I had a little more run time to experiment all different kinds of shifts. I downshifted 4-3 at the end of the back straight, and then 3-2 to go down the carousel, I believe. I love running lower gears to give me more control with the throttle around tight turns. [I'll dig up my old thread on the NESIC board, and read it again myself.]
-Ray
Edit: This is Pat Olsen's thread about our Quattro Club event at VIR this April. He timed me doing a 2:38. He was doing 2:36 in his sister's WRX, while his best time in his Legacy is 2:35.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174368&highlight=VIR[/url]
Not going to VIR this time. It's quite a haul for us from New England. But Emilio Acre (forgot his screen name, but he was with Mark Fitz and Wayne Chin at One Lap this year) will be there.
At VIR, I had a little more run time to experiment all different kinds of shifts. I downshifted 4-3 at the end of the back straight, and then 3-2 to go down the carousel, I believe. I love running lower gears to give me more control with the throttle around tight turns. [I'll dig up my old thread on the NESIC board, and read it again myself.]
-Ray
Edit: This is Pat Olsen's thread about our Quattro Club event at VIR this April. He timed me doing a 2:38. He was doing 2:36 in his sister's WRX, while his best time in his Legacy is 2:35.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174368&highlight=VIR[/url]
| IXLR8 | 11-14-2002 05:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]I wonder what gears do you guys use for 10 at Summit? I tried downshifting to 3rd, but that doesn't seem to help my speed much, so later, I just stayed in 4th. [/B][/QUOTE]
As a place to start, I usually try to get first time guys to drive the track in just two gears (usually 3rd and 4th). The main straight is 4th into turn 1; 3rd out of turn 1 and into 4th for a second before brake and downshift to 3rd for turn 3 (with a relatively high hp car, it's generally better to go deeper and slower into 3 in order to get squared up earlier and put the power down all the way to turn 5).
Upshift to 4th out of turn 3 and carry a boatload of speed through "turn" 4 (the chute). For most guys this is really the toughest part of the track.. the car is very unsettled but all except the very highest hp cars can take the chute close to, if not completely flat out, even though it doesn't feel like it... gotta be very smooth.
3rd gear out of turn 5, with an upshift to 4th, in either the moment of straight between turn 8 and 9, or out of turn 9 on the way to 10... back to third for 10, and then upshift to forth somewhere about pitout.
That sequence should reasonably protect your engine and give you some respectable lap times.
[B]I wonder what gears do you guys use for 10 at Summit? I tried downshifting to 3rd, but that doesn't seem to help my speed much, so later, I just stayed in 4th. [/B][/QUOTE]
As a place to start, I usually try to get first time guys to drive the track in just two gears (usually 3rd and 4th). The main straight is 4th into turn 1; 3rd out of turn 1 and into 4th for a second before brake and downshift to 3rd for turn 3 (with a relatively high hp car, it's generally better to go deeper and slower into 3 in order to get squared up earlier and put the power down all the way to turn 5).
Upshift to 4th out of turn 3 and carry a boatload of speed through "turn" 4 (the chute). For most guys this is really the toughest part of the track.. the car is very unsettled but all except the very highest hp cars can take the chute close to, if not completely flat out, even though it doesn't feel like it... gotta be very smooth.
3rd gear out of turn 5, with an upshift to 4th, in either the moment of straight between turn 8 and 9, or out of turn 9 on the way to 10... back to third for 10, and then upshift to forth somewhere about pitout.
That sequence should reasonably protect your engine and give you some respectable lap times.
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