| johnfelstead | 05-15-2002 08:52 PM |
Formula1.... Corrupt?
Well, I dont know about you lot but i find this very interesting!
Go take a look at the Sporting regulations for Formula1 on the FIA web site. To save you time its this, in pdf format [URL=http://www.fia.com/Reglements-sportifs/2002%20F1%20Sporting%20Regulations.pdf]F1 sporting regulations 2002[/URL]
Now then, when you get to the page that would hold article 48, mysteriously that page has corrupt data on it. Oh, it must be a fault! A fault my arse.
This is what Article 48 of the 2002 sporting regulations states!
[quote]48) If in the opinion of the Formula One Commission a competitor fails to operate his team in a manner compatible with the standards of the Championship or [b]in any way brings the Championship into disrepute[/b], the FIA may exclude such competitor from the Championship forthwith.[/quote]
Now, we have on record people like Gerhard Berger and Stirling Moss saying that Ferrari brought the championship into disrepute.
Why are the FIA hiding this rule from the Public?
I smell something VERY fishy going on here, i dont believe in coincidences.
It must suck having people like me out there when you want to cover something up. :D Bastards :mad:
Go take a look at the Sporting regulations for Formula1 on the FIA web site. To save you time its this, in pdf format [URL=http://www.fia.com/Reglements-sportifs/2002%20F1%20Sporting%20Regulations.pdf]F1 sporting regulations 2002[/URL]
Now then, when you get to the page that would hold article 48, mysteriously that page has corrupt data on it. Oh, it must be a fault! A fault my arse.
This is what Article 48 of the 2002 sporting regulations states!
[quote]48) If in the opinion of the Formula One Commission a competitor fails to operate his team in a manner compatible with the standards of the Championship or [b]in any way brings the Championship into disrepute[/b], the FIA may exclude such competitor from the Championship forthwith.[/quote]
Now, we have on record people like Gerhard Berger and Stirling Moss saying that Ferrari brought the championship into disrepute.
Why are the FIA hiding this rule from the Public?
I smell something VERY fishy going on here, i dont believe in coincidences.
It must suck having people like me out there when you want to cover something up. :D Bastards :mad:
| JenisonWRX | 05-15-2002 08:57 PM |
oh please....:rolleyes:
| johnfelstead | 05-15-2002 09:04 PM |
And your explanation is?
| JenisonWRX | 05-15-2002 09:39 PM |
1. even I knew about this rule and this is the first year I've really watched F1.
2. The odds that they would know enough to corrupt a specific portion of the pdf file is unlikely.
3. You have been watching xfiles too much ;)
4. Why does F1 care...its Ferrari that did 'the move' that everyone has their panties in a bunch about for no reason.
I just don't get it...Ferrari wants to win...whats the problem????
2. The odds that they would know enough to corrupt a specific portion of the pdf file is unlikely.
3. You have been watching xfiles too much ;)
4. Why does F1 care...its Ferrari that did 'the move' that everyone has their panties in a bunch about for no reason.
I just don't get it...Ferrari wants to win...whats the problem????
| Al | 05-15-2002 09:53 PM |
I have followed F1 for 30 years. What happened in Austria is common practice. Business as usual. Nothing wrong with it.
| lemmeme | 05-15-2002 09:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JenisonWRX [/i]
[B]I just don't get it...Ferrari wants to win...whats the problem???? [/B][/QUOTE]
Correction: Ferrari wants Michael to win, and the fact that the FIA seems to look the other way when Michael breaks the rules, but penalizes others, makes it look like the FIA also wants Michael to win.
This ruins the integrity of the sport, and although I love watching F1, I know the fix is in, to some extent, which is disappointing. I want to see the best driver with the best car win.
Here is the definition of sportsmanship: Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.
Missy
[B]I just don't get it...Ferrari wants to win...whats the problem???? [/B][/QUOTE]
Correction: Ferrari wants Michael to win, and the fact that the FIA seems to look the other way when Michael breaks the rules, but penalizes others, makes it look like the FIA also wants Michael to win.
This ruins the integrity of the sport, and although I love watching F1, I know the fix is in, to some extent, which is disappointing. I want to see the best driver with the best car win.
Here is the definition of sportsmanship: Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.
Missy
| meebs | 05-15-2002 10:17 PM |
unfortunatly, in that same article it reads, "...in a manner compatible with the standards of the Championship..." some of the FIA's "standards" are pretty sh***y to begin with. Funny how it always depends on who's in the car before they think about enforcing the rules.
| JenisonWRX | 05-15-2002 10:39 PM |
[QUOTE]when Michael breaks the rules[/QUOTE]
by crossing the finish line before his team mate...:rolleyes:
by crossing the finish line before his team mate...:rolleyes:
| ZFEVER | 05-15-2002 10:56 PM |
I want the best driver to win, not the driver with the best contract. Thats all I have to say about that.
| shrieden | 05-16-2002 01:17 AM |
Uhmm, I can see article 48 just fine when I clicked the link!
| johnfelstead | 05-16-2002 06:03 AM |
:lol:
It's back, funny that! :D
It's back, funny that! :D
| Marquis | 05-16-2002 07:42 AM |
I dare say some folks take you a bit too seriously at times, John.
Besides, I don't really think this whole escapade brought the whole Championship into disrepute, just the usual team order tactics.
People just have their proverbial panties in a bunch because it was thrown in their faces so blatantly on live television.
Besides, I don't really think this whole escapade brought the whole Championship into disrepute, just the usual team order tactics.
People just have their proverbial panties in a bunch because it was thrown in their faces so blatantly on live television.
| LordBass | 05-16-2002 07:53 AM |
Corrupt? No, that's silly.. Only interested in M Schu? Hell yes. I understand that Ferrari wants to win everything, but Michael had a plenty good lead going into this race, he didn't [I]need[/I] those four points right now, and probably won't at the end of the season.
Rubens is 'The Underdog' in the series, and it's great to see him do well. To have that taken away at the end of the race, then see Michael grovel and put Rubens on the top of the podium was embarrassing.
Sorry guys, just finished watching this late last night, so my disappointment is more fresh than the rest of you. :)
lb
[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
Rubens is 'The Underdog' in the series, and it's great to see him do well. To have that taken away at the end of the race, then see Michael grovel and put Rubens on the top of the podium was embarrassing.
Sorry guys, just finished watching this late last night, so my disappointment is more fresh than the rest of you. :)
lb
[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
| lemmeme | 05-16-2002 09:06 AM |
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when Michael breaks the rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JenisonWRX [/i]
[B]
by crossing the finish line before his team mate...:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
I was referring to other races, not this one, in reference to that comment. Case in point: Ralf gets penalized for crossing the line when coming out of the pits (in an earlier race, not the latest one), yet when Michael does the same thing only minutes later, and does not get penalized, it makes you wonder if the FIA, like Ferrari, wants Michael to win, so they give him special treatment.
Missy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when Michael breaks the rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JenisonWRX [/i]
[B]
by crossing the finish line before his team mate...:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
I was referring to other races, not this one, in reference to that comment. Case in point: Ralf gets penalized for crossing the line when coming out of the pits (in an earlier race, not the latest one), yet when Michael does the same thing only minutes later, and does not get penalized, it makes you wonder if the FIA, like Ferrari, wants Michael to win, so they give him special treatment.
Missy
| gtguy | 05-16-2002 09:43 AM |
F1 is a team sport...
David Coulthard said it best when he likened an F1 team to a Tour de France team. It was an absurd aberration in 1986, when Greg LeMond and Bernard Hinault were racing each OTHER within the La Vie Clare team. It was the talk of Europe, but an unfortunate consequence of having the two strongest riders on the same team.
You wouldn't see another U.S. Postal rider racing Lance Armstrong to the finish line, because a team gets behind their rider, and makes sure that he and the team achieve their goal.
Think of F1 in the same light, despite prats like Bernoldi who crash into their teammates. :rolleyes: Ferrari would not be where they are without Michael Schumacher. He is the team's undisputed no. 1 driver and as such, is always the favored candidate for the Driver's Championship. This was only not the case when he was injured, returned and drove excellently in support of Irvine and the team. It was only Irvine's ultimate lack of talent/psychological intimidation compared to Hakkinen that didn't get the job done.
If Rubens had moved over to let, say, Coulthard or Montoya through, that would have been one thing. But moving over to let his team's designated No. 1 driver through under team orders, isn't a crime, nor will it bring the sport into disrepute. If that were the case, none of us would be watching WRC for the same reason. "Team orders? How dare they?"
I know...at this point in the season, is it necessary? If Schumacher has an injury and has to take some races off, those points might come in handy. Rubens doesn't have the wherewithal to win the Driver's Championship. Is he good? Yes. Is he consistent enough to put the hammer down week after week? Not unless he has a car that is as superior to the rest of the field as is the F2002, and perhaps not even then, IMHO. A wonderful guy yes, but not a driver in Schumacher's overall league.
F1 teams are precisely that, and what a team chooses to do within that structure should be, within reason, their own business. This probably explains Todt's seeming belligerence. Does it suck for fans of Rubens and the multitudes of Schumacher haters? Undoubtedly. But Rubens will have plenty of opportunities this season, as he himself said. And don't think for an instant that if the Driver's title is clinched, Michael won't repay Rubens in full for his act.
Kevin
You wouldn't see another U.S. Postal rider racing Lance Armstrong to the finish line, because a team gets behind their rider, and makes sure that he and the team achieve their goal.
Think of F1 in the same light, despite prats like Bernoldi who crash into their teammates. :rolleyes: Ferrari would not be where they are without Michael Schumacher. He is the team's undisputed no. 1 driver and as such, is always the favored candidate for the Driver's Championship. This was only not the case when he was injured, returned and drove excellently in support of Irvine and the team. It was only Irvine's ultimate lack of talent/psychological intimidation compared to Hakkinen that didn't get the job done.
If Rubens had moved over to let, say, Coulthard or Montoya through, that would have been one thing. But moving over to let his team's designated No. 1 driver through under team orders, isn't a crime, nor will it bring the sport into disrepute. If that were the case, none of us would be watching WRC for the same reason. "Team orders? How dare they?"
I know...at this point in the season, is it necessary? If Schumacher has an injury and has to take some races off, those points might come in handy. Rubens doesn't have the wherewithal to win the Driver's Championship. Is he good? Yes. Is he consistent enough to put the hammer down week after week? Not unless he has a car that is as superior to the rest of the field as is the F2002, and perhaps not even then, IMHO. A wonderful guy yes, but not a driver in Schumacher's overall league.
F1 teams are precisely that, and what a team chooses to do within that structure should be, within reason, their own business. This probably explains Todt's seeming belligerence. Does it suck for fans of Rubens and the multitudes of Schumacher haters? Undoubtedly. But Rubens will have plenty of opportunities this season, as he himself said. And don't think for an instant that if the Driver's title is clinched, Michael won't repay Rubens in full for his act.
Kevin
| Marquis | 05-16-2002 10:02 AM |
[QUOTE]If that were the case, none of us would be watching WRC for the same reason. "Team orders? How dare they?"[/QUOTE]
Good point, though there is one important difference: Nobody even has to pass anybody to get "ahead" in WRC. The team No.2 can just slow up a bit to let his teammate by in the standings. It's like I keep saying: If this hadn't been such a blatant and outward showing of the team orders, nobody would be complaining.
Good point, though there is one important difference: Nobody even has to pass anybody to get "ahead" in WRC. The team No.2 can just slow up a bit to let his teammate by in the standings. It's like I keep saying: If this hadn't been such a blatant and outward showing of the team orders, nobody would be complaining.
| gtguy | 05-16-2002 10:36 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Marquis [/i]
[B]
Good point, though there is one important difference: Nobody even has to pass anybody to get "ahead" in WRC. The team No.2 can just slow up a bit to let his teammate by in the standings. It's like I keep saying: If this hadn't been such a blatant and outward showing of the team orders, nobody would be complaining. [/B][/QUOTE]
True, true... I too have come to feel that the biggest problem is that they rubbed everyone's faces in it, so to speak.
Kevin
[B]
Good point, though there is one important difference: Nobody even has to pass anybody to get "ahead" in WRC. The team No.2 can just slow up a bit to let his teammate by in the standings. It's like I keep saying: If this hadn't been such a blatant and outward showing of the team orders, nobody would be complaining. [/B][/QUOTE]
True, true... I too have come to feel that the biggest problem is that they rubbed everyone's faces in it, so to speak.
Kevin
| ChrisW | 05-16-2002 10:56 AM |
Hey John, I agree, formula1 is corrupt.
However, section 48 can't be used because technically the championship is not in disrepute.
Shumi's championship was safe even if Rubens would have been allowed to win.
If Shumi's "win" (I use the term loosely) changed the championship order then I would agree that section 48 would apply.
What Ferrari did was in an incrediblely bad PR decision. If Shumi wins his 5th championship, it will overshadowed by this incredibly stupid move.
Remember, Shumi had brakes, and didn't need this win:mad:
However, section 48 can't be used because technically the championship is not in disrepute.
Shumi's championship was safe even if Rubens would have been allowed to win.
If Shumi's "win" (I use the term loosely) changed the championship order then I would agree that section 48 would apply.
What Ferrari did was in an incrediblely bad PR decision. If Shumi wins his 5th championship, it will overshadowed by this incredibly stupid move.
Remember, Shumi had brakes, and didn't need this win:mad:
| johnfelstead | 05-16-2002 11:22 AM |
I dont think you understand what "to bring a championship into disrepute" means. It means you make it look bad and damage its image. Thats got bugger all to do with who is where in what.
Having the crowd boo at the finish, messing the podium presentation up, angering a large amount of the world etc etc is bringing the championship into disrepute IMHO.
i think you are mixing the word up with dispute, which is entirely a diferent thing.
Having the crowd boo at the finish, messing the podium presentation up, angering a large amount of the world etc etc is bringing the championship into disrepute IMHO.
i think you are mixing the word up with dispute, which is entirely a diferent thing.
| ChrisW | 05-16-2002 11:29 AM |
I agree, but I have a feeling that the intent of the rule would only apply if Shumi and Rubens were competing for 1st in the championship.
with Shumi's 27 (or 23 point lead as it should be ) point lead, it never really changed the outlook of the championship.
If that lame ass win prevented Montoya from getting 1st place, then I think that would also inovke section 48, but it didn't.
The only solution I see is the complete ban on team orders.
with Shumi's 27 (or 23 point lead as it should be ) point lead, it never really changed the outlook of the championship.
If that lame ass win prevented Montoya from getting 1st place, then I think that would also inovke section 48, but it didn't.
The only solution I see is the complete ban on team orders.
| johnfelstead | 05-16-2002 02:25 PM |
No, that rule is to prevent anyone sullying the image of the sport in the eyes of the world. It's got nothing to do with championship positions or race positions.
It's supposed to protect the image of the championship, which after all, is it's only major asset.
There are hundreds of races going on every weekend, The reason Billions of people watch F1 is almost entirely down to it's image built up over 50 years. It certainly isnt down to the "racing" you see 95% of the time.
It's supposed to protect the image of the championship, which after all, is it's only major asset.
There are hundreds of races going on every weekend, The reason Billions of people watch F1 is almost entirely down to it's image built up over 50 years. It certainly isnt down to the "racing" you see 95% of the time.
| JenisonWRX | 05-16-2002 02:31 PM |
So basically...if there was a video of Shumi with a donkey, a midget and some oil (you fill in the rest ;) ) that section 48 could come into play...cause Shumi is associated with F1
The podium thing was a bit awkward...but I think its awkward to begin with. Playing their national anthum??? I know its aworld championship...but...the country had nothing to do with their winning (IMO). Personally...I would want AC/DC playing on my victory lap :lol:
The podium thing was a bit awkward...but I think its awkward to begin with. Playing their national anthum??? I know its aworld championship...but...the country had nothing to do with their winning (IMO). Personally...I would want AC/DC playing on my victory lap :lol:
| SLIG | 05-16-2002 03:08 PM |
It's no more corrupt than WWF, except that the F1 guys dress better and don't yell as much.
| Arioch | 05-16-2002 04:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SLIG [/i]
[B]It's no more corrupt than WWF, except that the F1 guys dress better and don't yell as much. [/B][/QUOTE]
wow..... that was poetry! :lol:
i don't think that it's all of f1 that is corrupt, just ferrari. i understand the reasons for doing what they did, but i don't like it in any way, shape, or form.
i hope that the fia hearing will be more than a 'please don't do this again, or we'll have another hearing where we don't punish you' affair. i think that the blatant use of team orders (slowing down 50meters before the finish line on the last lap) should be disallowed.
-dave
[B]It's no more corrupt than WWF, except that the F1 guys dress better and don't yell as much. [/B][/QUOTE]
wow..... that was poetry! :lol:
i don't think that it's all of f1 that is corrupt, just ferrari. i understand the reasons for doing what they did, but i don't like it in any way, shape, or form.
i hope that the fia hearing will be more than a 'please don't do this again, or we'll have another hearing where we don't punish you' affair. i think that the blatant use of team orders (slowing down 50meters before the finish line on the last lap) should be disallowed.
-dave
| JenisonWRX | 05-16-2002 05:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arioch [/i]
[B]
wow..... that was poetry! :lol:
i don't think that it's all of f1 that is corrupt, just ferrari. i understand the reasons for doing what they did, but i don't like it in any way, shape, or form.
i hope that the fia hearing will be more than a 'please don't do this again, or we'll have another hearing where we don't punish you' affair. i think that the blatant use of team orders (slowing down 50meters before the finish line on the last lap) should be disallowed.
-dave [/B][/QUOTE]
*** is that...blatant disallowed. Thats rediculous...how vague is that
What if they didn't give him team orders...and Rubens just pulled over because he knew it was right for the team and his team mate ... would we even be talking about this or would be talking about what a great 'Team Player' Rubens is...
I think some of you are just pissed of cause Ferrari is kick so much ass so far this season...and I got a news flash for ya folks...THE SEASON ISNT OVER!
[QUOTE]Schumacher is not to blame says Irvine
"His hands are tied just as much as Rubens' are."
Eddie Irvine/Jaguar
Jaguar driver Eddie Irvine has voiced his opinion on the controversial ending in Sunday's Austrian Grand Prix, claiming that Michael Schumacher was not the one at fault for the eventual outcome. [/QUOTE]
Also...I think that this stupid story is letting the more important facts fall through the cracks.....HONDA FINALLY SCORED! :D Yup...now how can we bicker back and forth like this when this type of news calls for celebration!
;)
[B]
wow..... that was poetry! :lol:
i don't think that it's all of f1 that is corrupt, just ferrari. i understand the reasons for doing what they did, but i don't like it in any way, shape, or form.
i hope that the fia hearing will be more than a 'please don't do this again, or we'll have another hearing where we don't punish you' affair. i think that the blatant use of team orders (slowing down 50meters before the finish line on the last lap) should be disallowed.
-dave [/B][/QUOTE]
*** is that...blatant disallowed. Thats rediculous...how vague is that
What if they didn't give him team orders...and Rubens just pulled over because he knew it was right for the team and his team mate ... would we even be talking about this or would be talking about what a great 'Team Player' Rubens is...
I think some of you are just pissed of cause Ferrari is kick so much ass so far this season...and I got a news flash for ya folks...THE SEASON ISNT OVER!
[QUOTE]Schumacher is not to blame says Irvine
"His hands are tied just as much as Rubens' are."
Eddie Irvine/Jaguar
Jaguar driver Eddie Irvine has voiced his opinion on the controversial ending in Sunday's Austrian Grand Prix, claiming that Michael Schumacher was not the one at fault for the eventual outcome. [/QUOTE]
Also...I think that this stupid story is letting the more important facts fall through the cracks.....HONDA FINALLY SCORED! :D Yup...now how can we bicker back and forth like this when this type of news calls for celebration!
;)
| johnfelstead | 05-16-2002 05:47 PM |
A large amount of people have been uterly disgusted by this decision. The reaction of the Austrian crowd (who by the way are very laid back people) spoke volumes.
Motor Racing is more than just a case of who wins, how they win matters too, to a large number of people. A large number of the Tifosi are outraged by this as it has sullied the reputation of Ferrari.
This was a massive PR disaster for the sport. People who are pasionate about the sport are disgusted by it. The rights and wrongs of the decision from a purely technical rules based perspective are fairly irelevent, the way it affected peoples emotions are far more important. It's plain to see you cant get that point in your head.
Motor Racing is more than just a case of who wins, how they win matters too, to a large number of people. A large number of the Tifosi are outraged by this as it has sullied the reputation of Ferrari.
This was a massive PR disaster for the sport. People who are pasionate about the sport are disgusted by it. The rights and wrongs of the decision from a purely technical rules based perspective are fairly irelevent, the way it affected peoples emotions are far more important. It's plain to see you cant get that point in your head.
| Red-Impreza | 05-18-2002 01:22 AM |
I was shocked (more by the last minute timing then by the decision), but not so much disgusted, dissillusioned, or disgruntled. As a wanna'-be driver, I think it sucks.
Here's a thought... wouldn't it have shown exceptional courage and respect to reward a deserving driver by allowing him to win a race he'd earned? Was it dishonest? No, not really. They weren't trying to fool anybody. Was it cheap and chicken-****? Well... if Micheal doesn't win the title by more then 4 points somethings gone really wrong with his season.
Here's a thought... wouldn't it have shown exceptional courage and respect to reward a deserving driver by allowing him to win a race he'd earned? Was it dishonest? No, not really. They weren't trying to fool anybody. Was it cheap and chicken-****? Well... if Micheal doesn't win the title by more then 4 points somethings gone really wrong with his season.
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