| MattNJ2.8 | 10-03-2005 12:02 PM |
Future of WRC- lonely at the top...
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Without Skoda (we'll see), Peugeot, and Citroen, it's gonna be a lonely year in the WRC.
As I'm sure most fans know, there has been serious dicussion about cutting costs to bring in new competitors in the following years, similar to F1. My concern with any cost cutting is that manufacturers will inevitably spend more and more to squeeze every drop of performance out of any set of rules...again, similar to F1. How does one cut costs permanently?
I hope they do go ahead with the proposed rule changes...although I'm sure a lot of people will be pissed about it. Some of the rule changes include:
-Normally aspirated engines
-no active diffs
-gearbox changes
-software changes (traction control, etc)
-Eliminating events- big cost cutting here*
-limiting the size of crews/staff @ events
As I said, I'd rather see a healthy WRC with less interesting cars and 10 manufacturers participating than 3 or 4 groups with high-tech cars.
In the end, the rallying will be really good no matter what's under the hood, and competition always makes things a whole lot more interesting. More driver, less car. However, with any cost cutting, I don't think anyone could tolerate cutting costs when it comes to safety.
[B]What steps could the FIA/WRC do you think would be beneficial to allow more manufacturers to enter the WRC? [/B]
As I'm sure most fans know, there has been serious dicussion about cutting costs to bring in new competitors in the following years, similar to F1. My concern with any cost cutting is that manufacturers will inevitably spend more and more to squeeze every drop of performance out of any set of rules...again, similar to F1. How does one cut costs permanently?
I hope they do go ahead with the proposed rule changes...although I'm sure a lot of people will be pissed about it. Some of the rule changes include:
-Normally aspirated engines
-no active diffs
-gearbox changes
-software changes (traction control, etc)
-Eliminating events- big cost cutting here*
-limiting the size of crews/staff @ events
As I said, I'd rather see a healthy WRC with less interesting cars and 10 manufacturers participating than 3 or 4 groups with high-tech cars.
In the end, the rallying will be really good no matter what's under the hood, and competition always makes things a whole lot more interesting. More driver, less car. However, with any cost cutting, I don't think anyone could tolerate cutting costs when it comes to safety.
[B]What steps could the FIA/WRC do you think would be beneficial to allow more manufacturers to enter the WRC? [/B]
| flyboymike | 10-03-2005 12:11 PM |
These rule changes could seriously effect the most awesome part of rallying: the cars that get sold to the consumer for homologation rules. How would this extend to Group N? My only idea would be take a page from the JGTC and say cars can only make x amount of horsepower in any manner they choose. As for gearbox, maybe remove the sequential units and go back to plain ol' shifting.
| Rodan | 10-03-2005 12:23 PM |
I thought there were no Hemoligation rules anymore.
| WRXedUSA | 10-03-2005 12:27 PM |
Eliminate WRC cars and make GroupN the top flight.
| flyboymike | 10-03-2005 12:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Rodan]I thought there were no Hemoligation rules anymore.[/QUOTE]
Not in the WRC cars, no, but I thought that Group N still required homologation, hence Group N tranny mounts and strut tops being available to the general public. I could very well be wrong.
If not, maybe that's the answer: make Group N the championship class, force manufacturers to keep things close to stock. You want to race an awesome car? Sell an awesome car.
Not in the WRC cars, no, but I thought that Group N still required homologation, hence Group N tranny mounts and strut tops being available to the general public. I could very well be wrong.
If not, maybe that's the answer: make Group N the championship class, force manufacturers to keep things close to stock. You want to race an awesome car? Sell an awesome car.
| flyboymike | 10-03-2005 12:29 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA]Eliminate WRC cars and make GroupN the top flight.[/QUOTE]
Ah, yah beat me to it.
Ah, yah beat me to it.
| joe z | 10-03-2005 12:31 PM |
getting rid of wrc for group N would be great it would be like returning mid 90's rallying
| asquaredrex | 10-03-2005 01:04 PM |
This may be an unsuitable idea given the tragic event at Wales, but I was watching the old Audi videos that somebody posted here a while back and it struck me how much more exciting it was to watch when the power was greater than the tech. I think taking some hi-cost technology out (go back to regular shifters, limit T.C. and software, etc.) and allowing a power boost would make for a more exciting, lower cost WRC. Again, this is just off the top of my head and I could be completely off base.
| imaKi | 10-03-2005 01:15 PM |
ohh man if the engines had to be n/a us RS guys might actually see some nice builds come our way :) :)
| AdvanSTI | 10-03-2005 03:17 PM |
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]
-Normally aspirated engines
-no active diffs
-gearbox changes
-software changes (traction control, etc)
-Eliminating events- big cost cutting here*
-limiting the size of crews/staff @ events
[/B][/QUOTE]
i would agree on all of this EXCEPT the NA motors and eliminating events. Startwith the crews would be a good start. and gearboxes for sure. they go through those things like candy.
But to make the season shorter by cutting events?... yes to organize it, it does cost alot of money. but look at how much money each event brings in. to be honest i'd like to see every driver to run PGT, cuz then its more about the driver and less about the car.
-Normally aspirated engines
-no active diffs
-gearbox changes
-software changes (traction control, etc)
-Eliminating events- big cost cutting here*
-limiting the size of crews/staff @ events
[/B][/QUOTE]
i would agree on all of this EXCEPT the NA motors and eliminating events. Startwith the crews would be a good start. and gearboxes for sure. they go through those things like candy.
But to make the season shorter by cutting events?... yes to organize it, it does cost alot of money. but look at how much money each event brings in. to be honest i'd like to see every driver to run PGT, cuz then its more about the driver and less about the car.
| Impreza01 | 10-03-2005 03:35 PM |
[QUOTE=asquaredrex]This may be an unsuitable idea given the tragic event at Wales, but I was watching the old Audi videos that somebody posted here a while back and it struck me how much more exciting it was to watch when the power was greater than the tech. I think taking some hi-cost technology out (go back to regular shifters, limit T.C. and software, etc.) and allowing a power boost would make for a more exciting, lower cost WRC. Again, this is just off the top of my head and I could be completely off base.[/QUOTE]
Bad idea... Wales was the clincher but there were other deaths. The other point is that Nicky Grist pointed out that today's WRC class A8 machines are as fast as the Group B cars because the handling has improved that much.
I like the Group N4 bumping idea. Consumers and auto-enthusiasts will win and the manufacturers can prove who has the more superior car.
Bad idea... Wales was the clincher but there were other deaths. The other point is that Nicky Grist pointed out that today's WRC class A8 machines are as fast as the Group B cars because the handling has improved that much.
I like the Group N4 bumping idea. Consumers and auto-enthusiasts will win and the manufacturers can prove who has the more superior car.
| WRXedUSA | 10-03-2005 03:54 PM |
GroupN is the only feasible way out I feel, here's why:
-Greater manufacturer involvment with road car development
-Cheaper to build
-Levels the playing ground with the other privateer entries
-GroupN cars are just as exciting to watch, if not more because of the lack of center diffs
-Greater manufacturer involvment with road car development
-Cheaper to build
-Levels the playing ground with the other privateer entries
-GroupN cars are just as exciting to watch, if not more because of the lack of center diffs
| FaastLegacy | 10-03-2005 04:16 PM |
[QUOTE=AdvanSTI]i would agree on all of this EXCEPT the NA motors and eliminating events. Startwith the crews would be a good start. and gearboxes for sure. they go through those things like candy.
But to make the season shorter by cutting events?... yes to organize it, it does cost alot of money. but look at how much money each event brings in. to be honest i'd like to see every driver to run PGT, cuz then its more about the driver and less about the car.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but that money those events are generating isn't going to the teams, it's going to the FIA. That's the whole point of reducing costs for the [b]teams[/b]. Building a car for every event, transporting all the equipment, people etc. for every event, wear and tear, it's expensive. Even at the top rung, rally isn't something you get into to make money, at least not directly.
But the good thing about losing some factory teams is we'll see privateers in the points more and more and we'll prolly see some top drivers in privateer rides as well. I can't wait to see who goes where and who retires.
But to make the season shorter by cutting events?... yes to organize it, it does cost alot of money. but look at how much money each event brings in. to be honest i'd like to see every driver to run PGT, cuz then its more about the driver and less about the car.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but that money those events are generating isn't going to the teams, it's going to the FIA. That's the whole point of reducing costs for the [b]teams[/b]. Building a car for every event, transporting all the equipment, people etc. for every event, wear and tear, it's expensive. Even at the top rung, rally isn't something you get into to make money, at least not directly.
But the good thing about losing some factory teams is we'll see privateers in the points more and more and we'll prolly see some top drivers in privateer rides as well. I can't wait to see who goes where and who retires.
| meebs | 10-03-2005 04:49 PM |
Uhhhh.... I thought both Citroen and Pugeot were going to be gone after this season. Peugeot for sure. And if that's the case (Skoda with no commitments) then Subaru will walk the championship with Mitsu and Ford scrapping for a distant second in the final season of the WRC...pending no boulders on the line. 3 teams = death of the series.
| asquaredrex | 10-03-2005 05:15 PM |
Well, Suzuki is seriously considering stepping up to WRC. If Skoda realizes that they may have a fighting chance w/ Mr. McRae at the wheel and two of the powerhouses pulling out, they might stay as well. And then hopefully one of the Japanese big 3 will jump in, tho realistically not next year.
That sounds to be about as good a scenario as is possible.
That sounds to be about as good a scenario as is possible.
| Cusson | 10-03-2005 05:20 PM |
exactly why is this happening...all these rule changes?
does this have anything to do with the death at the last event in wales? :(
does this have anything to do with the death at the last event in wales? :(
| MattNJ2.8 | 10-03-2005 05:32 PM |
[QUOTE=meebs]Uhhhh.... I thought both Citroen and Pugeot were going to be gone after this season. Peugeot for sure. And if that's the case...[/QUOTE]
As stated above, Citroen and Peugeot are leaving, as they have been planning for some time. No one has said otherwise. :confused:
As stated above, Citroen and Peugeot are leaving, as they have been planning for some time. No one has said otherwise. :confused:
| MattNJ2.8 | 10-03-2005 05:33 PM |
[QUOTE=Cusson]exactly why is this happening...all these rule changes?
does this have anything to do with the death at the last event in wales? :([/QUOTE]
Why is this happening? Teams dropping out, without being replaced due to poor worldwide car sales and staggering motorsports budgets.
No, this doesn't have anything to do with the passing of Mr. Park. This has been ongoing for some time.
does this have anything to do with the death at the last event in wales? :([/QUOTE]
Why is this happening? Teams dropping out, without being replaced due to poor worldwide car sales and staggering motorsports budgets.
No, this doesn't have anything to do with the passing of Mr. Park. This has been ongoing for some time.
| mykrrrr | 10-03-2005 05:58 PM |
Reducing the amount of rounds of the WRC will cut team costs for logistics and travel expenses. Good for teams bad for the towns/cities that events are held in.
Going to a Grp. N as the pinnacle of WRC is sort of bad for manufacturers because it forces them to develop roadgoing versions of their rally cars. It's good because we get cool cars like the WRX and the LanEVO but the development costs on a road going counterparts are very high. Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, Ford and others don't really have AWD systems that are as good as Subaru and Mitsu. It's cheaper to umbrella these costs for just motorsports and not across the board. You can argue that the costs will be made up through unit sales but not everyone is looking for an AWD turbo Skoda Fabia RS...I'd get one if offered to me but that's besides the point.
I really hope that Skoda does continue and that Colin/Nicky drive for them next year. This would help tremendously in their development of a competitive Fabia in '06. Colin/Nicky gave more input in 10 days of driving the Fabia than all of their other drivers have in the past. That's gotta stand for something... :D
IIRC, paddle shifters and electronic centre diffs will be gone next year and look @ how the development of the Lancer WRC has gone. It was a dog last year but they're getting faster/better and I believe they'll have a leg up on other teams next year as they've got plenty of km's of real world testing under their belts.
I'd like to see to following:
WRC cars w/o active diffs, active suspension (some were developing this @ one point...not sure if it's being utilized right now) higher safety standards (one idea I was thinking was some sort of passive airbag restraint system in cases of side impacts particularly) higher minimum weights and less events a season..perhaps 12-14 instead of 16.
They should still allow tobacco sponsorship since it brings sponsor $$$ in.
Perhaps spec transmissions or only allowing one motor per event or making them use the same motor for two events like F1 does now. Maybe a spec tyre from all companies? The tyre manufacturers submit a certain # of tread patterns and three hardnesses before the season is started for homologation???
Who's knows what the WRC silly season will bring...all I hope is that Seb goes to Ford to team up w/Toni G, Colin goes to Skoda, Petter and Chris stay w/Subaru, Marcus goes to Mitsu and Markko gets back in the left seat (perhaps w/Robert Reid???)
RIP Beef...
-mykr.
Going to a Grp. N as the pinnacle of WRC is sort of bad for manufacturers because it forces them to develop roadgoing versions of their rally cars. It's good because we get cool cars like the WRX and the LanEVO but the development costs on a road going counterparts are very high. Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, Ford and others don't really have AWD systems that are as good as Subaru and Mitsu. It's cheaper to umbrella these costs for just motorsports and not across the board. You can argue that the costs will be made up through unit sales but not everyone is looking for an AWD turbo Skoda Fabia RS...I'd get one if offered to me but that's besides the point.
I really hope that Skoda does continue and that Colin/Nicky drive for them next year. This would help tremendously in their development of a competitive Fabia in '06. Colin/Nicky gave more input in 10 days of driving the Fabia than all of their other drivers have in the past. That's gotta stand for something... :D
IIRC, paddle shifters and electronic centre diffs will be gone next year and look @ how the development of the Lancer WRC has gone. It was a dog last year but they're getting faster/better and I believe they'll have a leg up on other teams next year as they've got plenty of km's of real world testing under their belts.
I'd like to see to following:
WRC cars w/o active diffs, active suspension (some were developing this @ one point...not sure if it's being utilized right now) higher safety standards (one idea I was thinking was some sort of passive airbag restraint system in cases of side impacts particularly) higher minimum weights and less events a season..perhaps 12-14 instead of 16.
They should still allow tobacco sponsorship since it brings sponsor $$$ in.
Perhaps spec transmissions or only allowing one motor per event or making them use the same motor for two events like F1 does now. Maybe a spec tyre from all companies? The tyre manufacturers submit a certain # of tread patterns and three hardnesses before the season is started for homologation???
Who's knows what the WRC silly season will bring...all I hope is that Seb goes to Ford to team up w/Toni G, Colin goes to Skoda, Petter and Chris stay w/Subaru, Marcus goes to Mitsu and Markko gets back in the left seat (perhaps w/Robert Reid???)
RIP Beef...
-mykr.
| dakwrx | 10-03-2005 06:18 PM |
if the new 06 wrc car has been tested and we have photos of it, how can rules changes still be possible for next year. I am assuming that the 06 rally car is still turbo 2.0L etc......
do you mean that these rules changes would pertain to the 2007 season? It seems ludicrous that all the manufacturers would still not know what kind of car to build for a season that starts in just a couple months??
I just searched the archives and the wrc home page and can't find any confirned info on wrc rules for 2006........ help! :confused:
do you mean that these rules changes would pertain to the 2007 season? It seems ludicrous that all the manufacturers would still not know what kind of car to build for a season that starts in just a couple months??
I just searched the archives and the wrc home page and can't find any confirned info on wrc rules for 2006........ help! :confused:
| WRXedUSA | 10-03-2005 06:32 PM |
The ImprezaWRC is over a half million.
They need to cut out a few of the mediterranean rounds. Take your pick:
1. Sardinia
2. Turkey
3. Greece
4. Cyprus
They need to cut out a few of the mediterranean rounds. Take your pick:
1. Sardinia
2. Turkey
3. Greece
4. Cyprus
| AdvanSTI | 10-03-2005 06:39 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA]The ImprezaWRC is over a half million.
They need to cut out a few of the mediterranean rounds. Take your pick:
1. Sardinia
2. Turkey
3. Greece
4. Cyprus[/QUOTE]
Greece and Turkey are good rallies. cyprus/ sardinia i dont care for much, dump one of those and bring back a USA rally! but this is the highest lvl of rally racing in the world. pretty much anyway you look at it its going to be very expensive.
They need to cut out a few of the mediterranean rounds. Take your pick:
1. Sardinia
2. Turkey
3. Greece
4. Cyprus[/QUOTE]
Greece and Turkey are good rallies. cyprus/ sardinia i dont care for much, dump one of those and bring back a USA rally! but this is the highest lvl of rally racing in the world. pretty much anyway you look at it its going to be very expensive.
| MattNJ2.8 | 10-03-2005 06:49 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA]The ImprezaWRC is over a half million.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but actual building costs pale in comparison with development costs!
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but actual building costs pale in comparison with development costs!
| pio!pio! | 10-03-2005 07:27 PM |
i am for and against this....
w/ the banning of active diffs and fancy software like that..we will go back to seeing the rally cars sliding sideways spectacularly around corners like they used to..
however they are talking about having a spec gearbox..but subaru's are longitudinal and not transverse (all the other teams have tranverse engine layouts)...so they are SOL
I didn't hear about the naturally aspirated rule.
w/ the banning of active diffs and fancy software like that..we will go back to seeing the rally cars sliding sideways spectacularly around corners like they used to..
however they are talking about having a spec gearbox..but subaru's are longitudinal and not transverse (all the other teams have tranverse engine layouts)...so they are SOL
I didn't hear about the naturally aspirated rule.
| Homemade WRX | 10-03-2005 07:55 PM |
I think standard gearboxes, no electronic diffs, no TCS...keeping the drivetrain "basically" stock allowing FWD cars to make AWD (but there would have to be restrictions in that)...
now what would be great is if they had to run stock engine/turbo but could tune from there...this would boost the homoligation cars and limit the money to be used in engine build/maintainance...
now what would be great is if they had to run stock engine/turbo but could tune from there...this would boost the homoligation cars and limit the money to be used in engine build/maintainance...
| Thumper23 | 10-03-2005 08:22 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]
Perhaps spec transmissions or only allowing one motor per event or making them use the same motor for two events like F1 does now.
[/QUOTE]
I thought they were doing the one engine/two rally rule now
Perhaps spec transmissions or only allowing one motor per event or making them use the same motor for two events like F1 does now.
[/QUOTE]
I thought they were doing the one engine/two rally rule now
| randy zimmer | 10-03-2005 08:44 PM |
Back in the dark ages, car damage was given a negative score.
Today, there's Super Rally where mistakes barely count.
If a front-runner lost 15 additional points for throwing a car off the road, Max Attack may be a bit more rare.
Delete half or more of the services.
Increase event mileage.
(Harder, more durable tires make speeds slower.)
Lost points or add time for dents.
More lost points (negative points) for DNF.
Spec. diffs. - no wires, no pumps.
These things would all go a lot toward changing the tactics.
rz
Today, there's Super Rally where mistakes barely count.
If a front-runner lost 15 additional points for throwing a car off the road, Max Attack may be a bit more rare.
Delete half or more of the services.
Increase event mileage.
(Harder, more durable tires make speeds slower.)
Lost points or add time for dents.
More lost points (negative points) for DNF.
Spec. diffs. - no wires, no pumps.
These things would all go a lot toward changing the tactics.
rz
| davis10 | 10-03-2005 10:42 PM |
Totally agree with ya here
[QUOTE=AdvanSTI]i would agree on all of this EXCEPT the NA motors and eliminating events. Startwith the crews would be a good start. and gearboxes for sure. they go through those things like candy.
But to make the season shorter by cutting events?... yes to organize it, it does cost alot of money. but look at how much money each event brings in. to be honest i'd like to see every driver to run PGT, cuz then its more about the driver and less about the car.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=AdvanSTI]i would agree on all of this EXCEPT the NA motors and eliminating events. Startwith the crews would be a good start. and gearboxes for sure. they go through those things like candy.
But to make the season shorter by cutting events?... yes to organize it, it does cost alot of money. but look at how much money each event brings in. to be honest i'd like to see every driver to run PGT, cuz then its more about the driver and less about the car.[/QUOTE]
| Rallycarperson | 10-03-2005 10:53 PM |
Bring back Gr.A WRC!!
And a normal manual gearbox, no active diffs, more night stages, and longer stages. :p
~Mark
And a normal manual gearbox, no active diffs, more night stages, and longer stages. :p
~Mark
| digitalpimp | 10-03-2005 11:05 PM |
the sport would still be expensive with most of the changes..... many teams claim electronic dogboxes are cheaper because they don't wear as fast. switching to N/A would mean that all the money that has been spent on the current motors would be worthless and all the teams would have to spend a ton of money on developing the new motors (and even when they are developed they will still spend a ton of money on making them better). deleting rounds is a problem because nearly all of them have substantial history to the sport. i do agree with smaller crews, no electronic diffs, and stuff like that, but if you make the cars too slow the sport would loose it's edge. i guess in the end it's a mass of pros and cons.
if you make group N the top class you just eliminated everybody but subaru and mitsu. i can't imagine many manufactures wanting to create cares from thin air just to compete in pwrc. i can't imagine many manufactures wanting to get into wrc period after peugeot/citroen stated that they haven't sold one more car due to their sucess (partially i would imagine because the wrc car is nothing like their street cars...)
if you make group N the top class you just eliminated everybody but subaru and mitsu. i can't imagine many manufactures wanting to create cares from thin air just to compete in pwrc. i can't imagine many manufactures wanting to get into wrc period after peugeot/citroen stated that they haven't sold one more car due to their sucess (partially i would imagine because the wrc car is nothing like their street cars...)
| SubaruImpreza_power | 10-03-2005 11:30 PM |
whoa.. what the hell... Why is Citroen and Peugeot leaving? I thought they were doing pretty good... And after watching Rally Japan last night.....
| Anibalz | 10-04-2005 02:46 PM |
PSA is leaving for financial reasons, look for their sales profits lately. Not very good. I think the elimination of high tech gadgets will reduce some costs as well, reduce the crew needed for each team.
| meebs | 10-04-2005 04:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Anibalz]PSA is leaving for financial reasons, look for their sales profits lately. Not very good. I think the elimination of high tech gadgets will reduce some costs as well, reduce the crew needed for each team.[/QUOTE]
I don't like that idea though. I like the fact that competition drives technology, very similar to F1, perhaps even with more of a direct results in the consumer versions. I think it's cool that the WRC car looks like the space shuttle on the inside.
I don't like that idea though. I like the fact that competition drives technology, very similar to F1, perhaps even with more of a direct results in the consumer versions. I think it's cool that the WRC car looks like the space shuttle on the inside.
| LOLSTi | 10-04-2005 05:05 PM |
[QUOTE=randy zimmer]
Lost points or add time for dents.[/QUOTE]
Then Subaru would DEFINETLY LOSE! :lol: :lol:
I agree with the slower/long idea though...
Lost points or add time for dents.[/QUOTE]
Then Subaru would DEFINETLY LOSE! :lol: :lol:
I agree with the slower/long idea though...
| Impreza01 | 10-04-2005 05:56 PM |
[QUOTE=Rallycarperson]Bring back Gr.A WRC!!
And a normal manual gearbox, no active diffs, more night stages, and longer stages. :p
~Mark[/QUOTE]
Uh, the current WRC level cars are classified as Group A8 cars.
And a normal manual gearbox, no active diffs, more night stages, and longer stages. :p
~Mark[/QUOTE]
Uh, the current WRC level cars are classified as Group A8 cars.
| MattNJ2.8 | 10-04-2005 11:53 PM |
I see that a lot of you WRC fans are bemoaning the possible loss of turbo engines in the WRC...but remember that next year, with *three* manufacturers going head to head, it's gonna be boring as hell. Without competition in the WRC, we do not get trickle down equipment for our street cars.
WRC > no WRC :(
WRC > no WRC :(
| WRXMaster | 10-05-2005 05:09 AM |
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]I see that a lot of you WRC fans are bemoaning the possible loss of turbo engines in the WRC...but remember that next year, with *three* manufacturers going head to head, it's gonna be boring as hell. Without competition in the WRC, we do not get trickle down equipment for our street cars.
WRC > no WRC :([/QUOTE]
They are banning front and rear active diffs... That means privateer cars will be able to stay with the factory backed cars... How will that be boring? From what I have heard Seb is going to run a private citreon next season.
WRC > no WRC :([/QUOTE]
They are banning front and rear active diffs... That means privateer cars will be able to stay with the factory backed cars... How will that be boring? From what I have heard Seb is going to run a private citreon next season.
| AdvanSTI | 10-05-2005 04:40 PM |
its also driver skill.. just because the diffs are changing doesn't mean the guy that has 0 season points will be on the podium every rally. i still think Group N should be the top class, that'd be the ish. too bad more manufactures dont make AWD cars... :(
| WRXMaster | 10-05-2005 05:40 PM |
[QUOTE=AdvanSTI]its also driver skill.. just because the diffs are changing doesn't mean the guy that has 0 season points will be on the podium every rally. i still think Group N should be the top class, that'd be the ish. too bad more manufactures dont make AWD cars... :([/QUOTE]
Group N is boring to watch .. They are too slow! I heard with the restrictor they are slower then a stock US STI
Group N is boring to watch .. They are too slow! I heard with the restrictor they are slower then a stock US STI
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