| GarySheehan | 01-21-2003 07:36 PM |
Opinions on Japanese GT Championship?
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I just watched some of the JGTC coverage on Speedvision last night. I'm not sure if I was just in a bad mood or what, but those guys seem to be serious hacks behind the wheel! It pissed me off so much I had to change the channel! Anyone else see this stuff? Am I alone feeling like this?
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| rkkwan | 01-21-2003 07:51 PM |
Like I said in this thread, [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=299733]JGTC on Speed[/URL] I'm also totally underwhelmed by the driving skills of many of the JGTC drivers. IMHO, they are clearly not the same league as top touring car drivers in BTCC, ETCC or DTM definitely.
-Ray
-Ray
| SubaruWRC | 01-21-2003 08:18 PM |
I havent seen any races yet, but Gary you should go find ride over there and show em how its done:D you could take over for the driver of the Cusco Impreza.
Jiffy:D
Jiffy:D
| irwrx | 01-21-2003 09:11 PM |
I thought the coverage was not good. You couldn't hear the cars and they were just taking clips from each race. The person who picked the clips like crashes and the racing series is designed to make racing competitive. (with the constant weight penalties) When you have so many cars racing that close, there is going to be crashes.
The last time I seen BTCC racing there was pushing and bumping but they show the whole race. Any time when there is close racing there will be more chances of contact between cars. Isn't that what makes touring car racing entertaining?
I think JGTC is cool but the coverage from Speed TV not too good.
The last time I seen BTCC racing there was pushing and bumping but they show the whole race. Any time when there is close racing there will be more chances of contact between cars. Isn't that what makes touring car racing entertaining?
I think JGTC is cool but the coverage from Speed TV not too good.
| Billio | 01-21-2003 09:43 PM |
I have to agree with you Gary. I'm glad to see the races on but find it a bit dull in the coverage. I prefer to watch the Australian V8 Super car series.
Hey Gary, maybe you can get Speed to televise your series instead! Or at least replay some of the SCCA Touring Car Championship or even some Spec Miata races, as those are a blast to watch.
Hey Gary, maybe you can get Speed to televise your series instead! Or at least replay some of the SCCA Touring Car Championship or even some Spec Miata races, as those are a blast to watch.
| Jerry C | 01-21-2003 11:11 PM |
Come on now Gary!! The coverage was a little poor, unless your interested in GT 500. If you were interested in GT300 you got very little. When you put close to forty cars out there, and the first 18 were within 1/2 second in qualifing time, your going to have some some mishaps. Then you throw in a passel of much slower cars, and what do you get? JGTC Not Bad!!
Jerry C
Jerry C
| randy zimmer | 01-21-2003 11:16 PM |
JTC
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Gary,
Looks like the culture coming through, "after you, please, thank you."
The europeans just bash their way through while everyone else is giving room. I DO like the officials in suits like england in the 60's. Very classy.
Bonehead of the year, the guy who head-on'd Gardner.
rz
Looks like the culture coming through, "after you, please, thank you."
The europeans just bash their way through while everyone else is giving room. I DO like the officials in suits like england in the 60's. Very classy.
Bonehead of the year, the guy who head-on'd Gardner.
rz
| Jerry C | 01-22-2003 12:22 AM |
Now let me try to figure this out ??
The ETCC -- The Europeoons are just bashing and pushing thier way through.
The BTCC-- The Crazy Brits are bumping and pushing.
The JGTC -- Those Inferior Japaneese drivers are to aggressive!!
I Guarantee you will hate the AV8SC. Those Crazy Aussies drive like Mad MEN. Some of the best racing I have seen since Trans Am in the 60's.
I guess I will have to start watching NASCAR!! (WHFO) Although I did go watch the barges at Sears Point a few years back, and some of those guys have real talent. (PS. Free Tickets)
ITS ALL GOOD!!! Just that some is GOODER!!
Gary, Give em Hell this year!! Maybe a little shunt would get that BMW out of your way!! This will be your year!!
Jerry C
The ETCC -- The Europeoons are just bashing and pushing thier way through.
The BTCC-- The Crazy Brits are bumping and pushing.
The JGTC -- Those Inferior Japaneese drivers are to aggressive!!
I Guarantee you will hate the AV8SC. Those Crazy Aussies drive like Mad MEN. Some of the best racing I have seen since Trans Am in the 60's.
I guess I will have to start watching NASCAR!! (WHFO) Although I did go watch the barges at Sears Point a few years back, and some of those guys have real talent. (PS. Free Tickets)
ITS ALL GOOD!!! Just that some is GOODER!!
Gary, Give em Hell this year!! Maybe a little shunt would get that BMW out of your way!! This will be your year!!
Jerry C
| TBreu007 | 01-22-2003 12:55 AM |
I don�t want to start something will all those �if it came from Japan it has to be good people,� but I certainly have to agree with Gary.
Between their diving in...trying to pass with only a nose into the corner (no no in racing) to their jumping to the middle of the track down the long straights so as not to allow someone to draft or to pass someone only to tuck back in before the corner (two lines...considered blocking), most were definitely on the level of fairly good amateurs. You can go to a SCCA race and see that kind of action. Definitely not what I expected...especially for the large amount of money that goes into those cars.
The drivers in the BTCC, DTM and V8 Supercars are not only better, but they seem to understand etiquette better.
Between their diving in...trying to pass with only a nose into the corner (no no in racing) to their jumping to the middle of the track down the long straights so as not to allow someone to draft or to pass someone only to tuck back in before the corner (two lines...considered blocking), most were definitely on the level of fairly good amateurs. You can go to a SCCA race and see that kind of action. Definitely not what I expected...especially for the large amount of money that goes into those cars.
The drivers in the BTCC, DTM and V8 Supercars are not only better, but they seem to understand etiquette better.
| rkkwan | 01-22-2003 01:19 AM |
There's a huge difference between bumping to get through, as in BTCC; and hitting another car, spinning that car and yourself out of contention, as in JGTC.
There are probably more contact in BTCC than any other races I've watched, but most of the time, the cars are not spunned out, nor damaged. And DTM is a little different with all their high-tech wings and winglets and aerodynamic panels, which seem to close loose with the slightest touch. On the other hand, there are some serious, pretty heavy damage from the JGTC that's been shown.
-Ray
There are probably more contact in BTCC than any other races I've watched, but most of the time, the cars are not spunned out, nor damaged. And DTM is a little different with all their high-tech wings and winglets and aerodynamic panels, which seem to close loose with the slightest touch. On the other hand, there are some serious, pretty heavy damage from the JGTC that's been shown.
-Ray
| GarySheehan | 01-22-2003 03:21 AM |
It's not the contact I'm concerned with. There's always going to be contact between cars, especially as the fields get bigger. But there's a difference. Put it this way, my GF Sue turned to me during the program and said "What the hell is wrong with these guys? Don't they know how to drive?!"
When you are drafting someone down a straight and pull out to slingshot by, there is no excuse for hitting the guy from behind and spinning him into a barrier in the middle of a straight.
When you are involved in a spin and turned around and all of the cars behind you are funneling past, there is no excuse for driving TOWARDS the exit of the corner into oncoming traffic and running head on into another car.
There was tons of this type of thing going on. I know that a lot of it was highlights, but most of these highlights showed lack of fundamental racing skills.
There were so many times I saw serious throttle-on oversteer at the exits of these corners. Not nice slip angles, but great big rear end slides. That's not because the driver is getting after it. It's because the driver has made a big mistake or doesn't have the sensitivity in his right foot to get the power to the ground.
Do not confuse the "aggressive driving" with "driving over one's head." They are very different. The BTCC guys are aggressive. The stuff I saw on JGTC was just silly.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
When you are drafting someone down a straight and pull out to slingshot by, there is no excuse for hitting the guy from behind and spinning him into a barrier in the middle of a straight.
When you are involved in a spin and turned around and all of the cars behind you are funneling past, there is no excuse for driving TOWARDS the exit of the corner into oncoming traffic and running head on into another car.
There was tons of this type of thing going on. I know that a lot of it was highlights, but most of these highlights showed lack of fundamental racing skills.
There were so many times I saw serious throttle-on oversteer at the exits of these corners. Not nice slip angles, but great big rear end slides. That's not because the driver is getting after it. It's because the driver has made a big mistake or doesn't have the sensitivity in his right foot to get the power to the ground.
Do not confuse the "aggressive driving" with "driving over one's head." They are very different. The BTCC guys are aggressive. The stuff I saw on JGTC was just silly.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Jerry C | 01-22-2003 03:44 AM |
Is there something wrong with me?? After 60 years on this planet, of which ,43 years have been as an avid Sports Car and Road Racing fan. I still REALLY ENJOY SCCA club racing.!!!!
Good Luck, I have to get back to my favorite book, "The Ultimate Guide to Enjoying F1, for Dummies".
Jerry C
Good Luck, I have to get back to my favorite book, "The Ultimate Guide to Enjoying F1, for Dummies".
Jerry C
| randy zimmer | 01-22-2003 07:23 AM |
car abuse
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Next time you watch, replace Your attitude of "aggressive" with "inept" and you'll see what Gary means.
Most of the locals try to stay away from one another until they try a move and, "bango" ooops! Looks like a follies clip.
Unforced spins, huge disparities in braking distances and botched passes, all pretty basic faults and it seems almost universal, not just the tail-enders.
OK, the performance of the cars is so high, with 3000HP, what human can control it? Well, one with good feedback to a crew that can help set up the car to deal with it. A driver does more than steer, looks like most of these have big checkbooks.
rz
Most of the locals try to stay away from one another until they try a move and, "bango" ooops! Looks like a follies clip.
Unforced spins, huge disparities in braking distances and botched passes, all pretty basic faults and it seems almost universal, not just the tail-enders.
OK, the performance of the cars is so high, with 3000HP, what human can control it? Well, one with good feedback to a crew that can help set up the car to deal with it. A driver does more than steer, looks like most of these have big checkbooks.
rz
| sdecker | 01-22-2003 08:03 AM |
I admit there were some pretty bonehead mistakes, but I wonder how much of the footage is driven by the target audience? The Gran Turismo crowd is who I'm talking about here...OK, I'm one of them but I'm probably a *bit* older than many of them. :D
In other words, they may be showing this on purpose, to generate interest. I'd like to have the opportunity to see an entire race or two and judge driving skills over a couple of hours.
Just my two cents.
Scott
In other words, they may be showing this on purpose, to generate interest. I'd like to have the opportunity to see an entire race or two and judge driving skills over a couple of hours.
Just my two cents.
Scott
| 6 Stars | 01-22-2003 09:54 AM |
I enjoy JGTC for the variety of cars, but like most sports car racing there isn't wall-to-wall action. As far as the driving talent goes, Japan has yet to produce any real top-flight driving talent. In JGTC and Formula Nippon, a lot of mediocre foreign drivers (and domestic drivers) have been able to look like superstars.
Eddie Irvine, Aguri Suzuki, Satoru Nakajima, Hideki Noda, Pedro delaRosa, and Mika Salo have all been impressive compared to the competition in Japan. These guys and a number of F3000 tailenders have gone to Japan to race because of the good pay and the opportunity to be a big fish in a small pond, hoping to impress an F1 or CART team.
Most of the top young Japanese drivers go to Europe to race. Witness Takuma Sato, who was one of three 2001 F3 champs in the major European series.
Eddie Irvine, Aguri Suzuki, Satoru Nakajima, Hideki Noda, Pedro delaRosa, and Mika Salo have all been impressive compared to the competition in Japan. These guys and a number of F3000 tailenders have gone to Japan to race because of the good pay and the opportunity to be a big fish in a small pond, hoping to impress an F1 or CART team.
Most of the top young Japanese drivers go to Europe to race. Witness Takuma Sato, who was one of three 2001 F3 champs in the major European series.
| rkkwan | 01-22-2003 11:35 AM |
Hm... Some interesting thoughts about the Japan racing scene. From what I've known (mostly from the the Autosport magazine from the UK), most of those foreign drivers in the JGTC are in Japan mostly because of Formula Nippon. The also do Touring cars, I guess, because they have the spare time and offers to do so.
Now, Japan does produce a few great drivers in the international scene, but they seem to be suffering from the same problem as the US - their drivers are severly underrepresented. Even the drivers that have made it to F1 can hardly stay there for long. Look at Sato - at least in appearance - he can only be in F1 if Honda backs him. That's why he won't be driving for Jordan, but back in testing for BAR.
Another thing is even more incredible. You don't need me to tell you how strong the Japanese car makers are in the world. But in Japan, which has a population of 125million (just under half of the US), how many road racing courses can you name? And how many are there? The JGTC races at all the famous ones, and that's like 7 or 8 total. Considering the population and size of the US, it's not much better. But a report in Autoweek counts >70. Over seventy race tracks in continental Europe, and that doens't even count the UK!
Or consider how a country like Brazil, which is not exactly rich, and has a population about the same as Japan but hardly a car industry, produce so many great drivers for F1 and all other racing series around the world? Pretty interesting, isn't it?
-Ray
Now, Japan does produce a few great drivers in the international scene, but they seem to be suffering from the same problem as the US - their drivers are severly underrepresented. Even the drivers that have made it to F1 can hardly stay there for long. Look at Sato - at least in appearance - he can only be in F1 if Honda backs him. That's why he won't be driving for Jordan, but back in testing for BAR.
Another thing is even more incredible. You don't need me to tell you how strong the Japanese car makers are in the world. But in Japan, which has a population of 125million (just under half of the US), how many road racing courses can you name? And how many are there? The JGTC races at all the famous ones, and that's like 7 or 8 total. Considering the population and size of the US, it's not much better. But a report in Autoweek counts >70. Over seventy race tracks in continental Europe, and that doens't even count the UK!
Or consider how a country like Brazil, which is not exactly rich, and has a population about the same as Japan but hardly a car industry, produce so many great drivers for F1 and all other racing series around the world? Pretty interesting, isn't it?
-Ray
| whoobaru | 01-22-2003 09:44 PM |
After seeing the first 6 episodes of JGTC, there's no doubt that there's some really, really bad driving going on. But it is just highlights, not the entire race. I'm sure if you compressed any other series and showed certain parts, the drivers could be made to look pretty bad as well. I'd definitely like to see an entire race before passing total judgement, but then again Japan hasn't produced a wealth of driving superstars either.
On the topic of Brazilian talent. My theory (more like observation) is that the worse the roads are and the crazier the people normally drive in a country, the more talent seems to come out of them. Examples other than Brazil, being France and Italy. Some places there are pretty nerve wracking to drive especially when you're lost and trying to look for signs!
On the topic of Brazilian talent. My theory (more like observation) is that the worse the roads are and the crazier the people normally drive in a country, the more talent seems to come out of them. Examples other than Brazil, being France and Italy. Some places there are pretty nerve wracking to drive especially when you're lost and trying to look for signs!
| GarySheehan | 01-22-2003 10:08 PM |
I've watched a lot of racing :) from a lot of different racing series. Including highlights of series. The only other one that made me think the drivers were not very good was the Indy Racing League. If you've watched, you know what I mean.
I'm not even saying I'm against crashes. To be honest, I think they are pretty cool to watch. Being a racing driver myself, I am fascinated with the entire cause to end result of a crash. I am absolutely terrified for the driver's health, though.
But there is a difference between incidents involving experienced drivers battle head to head for the same peice of track versus stupid pointless mistakes due to complete lack of experience. THAT is what I see in JGTC and IRL.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I'm not even saying I'm against crashes. To be honest, I think they are pretty cool to watch. Being a racing driver myself, I am fascinated with the entire cause to end result of a crash. I am absolutely terrified for the driver's health, though.
But there is a difference between incidents involving experienced drivers battle head to head for the same peice of track versus stupid pointless mistakes due to complete lack of experience. THAT is what I see in JGTC and IRL.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| zzyzx | 01-23-2003 12:19 AM |
Hmm, could it just be culture? Remember we're talking about a culture of driving that is geared heavily towards "drifting", and their gymkhana is the same. The grassroots focus in motorsports is IMO altogether different from most other places... Perhaps this is why people "slid" around corners, ignoring nice slip angles.
Irregardless, this doesn't explain the other mishaps that Gary mentions...
- Steve
Irregardless, this doesn't explain the other mishaps that Gary mentions...
- Steve
| tifosi77 | 01-23-2003 01:34 AM |
it sucks
| TerenceT | 01-23-2003 01:40 AM |
jeff, lost your email
send it to me again
also, if you need help on the install
let me know, it helps to have an extra feet pumping the padels
later
terence
send it to me again
also, if you need help on the install
let me know, it helps to have an extra feet pumping the padels
later
terence
| TimStevens | 01-23-2003 07:59 AM |
I agree... I was very excited when speed started broadcasting the JGTC stuff, but watched my first race and just kept shaking my head. It's irritating to watch, not exciting.
But, I love how they politely wave at each other when they pull off a pass :lol: And what's up with half the drivers driving with one hand? It's not like the shifter is more than 6'' away from the steering wheel..
The GT series that's broadcasted on Saturday afternoons is much more impressive, IMHO. Equally gorgeous cars that seem to be much better driven, and the 1 hour coverage is much better than the uber-condensed 30 minutes thing. Plus, I'm a little biased because I've been playing the GT mod on my PC for a few weeks now. Anyone who's into hard-core racing sims needs to check it out :D
-tim
But, I love how they politely wave at each other when they pull off a pass :lol: And what's up with half the drivers driving with one hand? It's not like the shifter is more than 6'' away from the steering wheel..
The GT series that's broadcasted on Saturday afternoons is much more impressive, IMHO. Equally gorgeous cars that seem to be much better driven, and the 1 hour coverage is much better than the uber-condensed 30 minutes thing. Plus, I'm a little biased because I've been playing the GT mod on my PC for a few weeks now. Anyone who's into hard-core racing sims needs to check it out :D
-tim
| Jerry C | 01-23-2003 02:27 PM |
This thread is starting to sound like a PCA discussion on an H/Prod. race. If you dont like it, turn on the truck series. You can hear this same crap, from the F1 boys, about CART drivers.
Be thankfull, it could have been coverage of how Moonshiners influenced NASCAR.
By the way, I am quite sure, that "I" am the GREATEST DRIVER in the WORLD!!! If you dont believe me , ask my Grandaughter.
Jerry C
Be thankfull, it could have been coverage of how Moonshiners influenced NASCAR.
By the way, I am quite sure, that "I" am the GREATEST DRIVER in the WORLD!!! If you dont believe me , ask my Grandaughter.
Jerry C
| AUTOwrXER | 01-23-2003 03:21 PM |
Why am I not surprised by the lack of driving skill? Let me think. They have very little habitable space and a crapton of people. The little bit of driving that they get to do usually involves dodging people, which they don't do very well. I have lived in 6 different places around the world, and the drivers in Japan were by far the worst. My father was nearly killed on his motorcycle twice in the 18 months that we lived there.
South Carolina is a distant second, by the way.
Joel
South Carolina is a distant second, by the way.
Joel
| HomerJay | 01-23-2003 11:04 PM |
I always wondered what % of participants finished those races.
-Joe
-Joe
| gaijin22 | 01-24-2003 08:26 PM |
Its all about Tsuchiya. He's the man. Although I enjoy watching Tsuchiya and Orido more on Best Motoring vids than in JGTC. Either way, I'm very happy that JGTC has come to US TVs.
| whoobaru | 01-29-2003 09:55 AM |
OK, after watching this past Monday's JGTC (night 3), I'm definitely leaning more towards Gary's point of view. I was really excited to see it the first 2 nights SPEED had it, so I'm sure I had the rose-colored glasses on. The first race's highlights (round 5, Fuji) were really good, but then it turned into a crashfest for the next 2 rounds. Even for highlights, there were a whole lot of wrecks and bad driving. Over-aggressive passing attempts seemed to be the norm. Too much throttle on cold tires too. Both classes GT300 and GT500 displayed this, but definitely more so with the GT300's. I do wonder about the speed disparity between the cars though. How much affect does it have? The only series I can think of (off the top of my head) that has as much is ALMS. Are there this many wrecks in that as well? I'm still gonna keep up with JGTC for sure, it's still a lot more fun to watch than oval racing, but I've got me clear glasses on nw.
| Billio | 01-29-2003 10:10 AM |
Man, there is as much pushing and shoving as a NASCAR short track race! Did no one realize that cold tires=no grip? Every car that came out after a tire change either spun out or was in the gravel.
I also like how one of the GT500 cars, for no reason that I could see after using instant replay on my ReplayTV several times, did a sharp swerve to the right, nailing the GT300 RX-7 into the wall.
Man, I bet I could race with these guys! Do the officials not believe in giving penalties for poor driving?
I also like how one of the GT500 cars, for no reason that I could see after using instant replay on my ReplayTV several times, did a sharp swerve to the right, nailing the GT300 RX-7 into the wall.
Man, I bet I could race with these guys! Do the officials not believe in giving penalties for poor driving?
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