| makofoto | 10-09-2005 12:38 AM |
Poll: STI Auto Crossers, DCCD Setting, Auto or Manual
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STI Autocrossers ... which setting are you using with your DCCD, Full Auto or Manual. If you are using the Manual mode ... what percentage to the rear are you using? Tell us which model year your STI is. Please give us your opinion as to which setting is faster and why ... and please state your experience level.
| ChrisF | 10-09-2005 01:38 AM |
Stated previously: because autox times don't lie. Auto is always faster than any setting I've tried. It's that simple.
| Shavenyak | 10-09-2005 02:17 AM |
I've always used auto. 05 STI. I think the 06's might be even better due to the DCCD improvements.
--Roman
--Roman
| afpdl | 10-09-2005 03:36 AM |
When I first got my sti I couldnt get any decent times in auto so I ran it around 20% lock. One day I tried it on auto again basically because I forgot to put it in manual and the car ran just fine havent, gone back since. To me in auto it turns in just as well as it does on full open but you can actually put some power down on corner exit with it in auto.
Car is a 04 sti set up the wrong way for STU. Driving experiance is 2.5years of autoxing 20-30 events a year.
Car is a 04 sti set up the wrong way for STU. Driving experiance is 2.5years of autoxing 20-30 events a year.
| gregr01 | 10-09-2005 10:17 AM |
'04 STi, manual @ 45/55.
I spent a test day early this year trying each setting after autoxing the previous season on auto. I found the times weren't much different, but the predictability on manual (especially at 45/55) was better--particularly oversteer--and therefore my confidence level in the car was higher and I went slightly faster.
Relevant setup...
Eibach springs, stock struts.
Whiteline sways 22 F & 20-24 R (set to 24), with stock endlinks.
PDE plates front (-2.9 camber/+6 caster), Cusco rear (-1.7).
Hoosier A3S04 225/45 on 17x8.5 SSR Comps.
Lots of road racing experience, a couple of years autox experience. I'm competitive regionally, a bit behind Sortor in overall PAX (different classes, though) in a car that's under-tired and less prepared (for now).
I spent a test day early this year trying each setting after autoxing the previous season on auto. I found the times weren't much different, but the predictability on manual (especially at 45/55) was better--particularly oversteer--and therefore my confidence level in the car was higher and I went slightly faster.
Relevant setup...
Eibach springs, stock struts.
Whiteline sways 22 F & 20-24 R (set to 24), with stock endlinks.
PDE plates front (-2.9 camber/+6 caster), Cusco rear (-1.7).
Hoosier A3S04 225/45 on 17x8.5 SSR Comps.
Lots of road racing experience, a couple of years autox experience. I'm competitive regionally, a bit behind Sortor in overall PAX (different classes, though) in a car that's under-tired and less prepared (for now).
| subyscott | 10-09-2005 12:14 PM |
So far with my minimal experience I have found auto to work best. I have played with it a bit and get my best times on auto.
| jamesohoh7 | 10-09-2005 02:58 PM |
I've only autox'ed my 05 STi three times + one practice event in the rain. I am coming from an '04 WRX that I autox'ed for roughly a year (maybe 30 or so events, all in all, between the 3 local clubs + practice events)
I like auto better, but at this early stage for me, it's really hard for me to say 'why' other than "it's surely better at doing it's thing than I am" :D I was quicker (slightly) in the rain-practice on auto, but Alex (a few posts above, afpdl) was much faster in my own car in either manual or auto. I felt like auto pulls me out of corners a little better, but I'm so inconsistent, it could be a number of things that lead to that feeling.
My car was bone-stock suspension-wise other than a set of 'kooks on a set of Rotas. However, I just put my Hotchkis front sway on yesterday, and so at the next event, I'll have something else to 'test'.
I like auto better, but at this early stage for me, it's really hard for me to say 'why' other than "it's surely better at doing it's thing than I am" :D I was quicker (slightly) in the rain-practice on auto, but Alex (a few posts above, afpdl) was much faster in my own car in either manual or auto. I felt like auto pulls me out of corners a little better, but I'm so inconsistent, it could be a number of things that lead to that feeling.
My car was bone-stock suspension-wise other than a set of 'kooks on a set of Rotas. However, I just put my Hotchkis front sway on yesterday, and so at the next event, I'll have something else to 'test'.
| AndrewSS | 10-09-2005 03:33 PM |
i like to use auto at autox events... but full open isnt bad, at midohio i think that full open was better, my instructor loved full open vs auto, the car balanced better he thought with full open.
| WRXedUSA | 10-09-2005 10:29 PM |
auto FTW.
| WRX_Mundi | 10-09-2005 11:14 PM |
Ditto ChrisF earlier: Auto yields the fastest clock times for me.
In the dry I've tried auto and various manual settings a few times. Sometimes one felt better than the other, but auto has always been faster for me in course time. Mostly I don't bother any more as I usually get this same result (auto faster). Wet is another story, though just damp I still run auto. "Damp" doesn't stay constant enough for me to do testing on it though.
Manual setting with quite a bit of lock does pull better out of corners than auto -- I can definitely feel the front wheels pulling more.
No setting is going to make the car into a RWD. In auto I can easily get the tail to come way out in a corner exit if I'm too heavy with the throttle, so power oversteer is possible. I'm convinced it's suspension setup. Anyway, I imagine car setup and driving style make a difference so this may not apply fully to someone else.
In the dry I've tried auto and various manual settings a few times. Sometimes one felt better than the other, but auto has always been faster for me in course time. Mostly I don't bother any more as I usually get this same result (auto faster). Wet is another story, though just damp I still run auto. "Damp" doesn't stay constant enough for me to do testing on it though.
Manual setting with quite a bit of lock does pull better out of corners than auto -- I can definitely feel the front wheels pulling more.
No setting is going to make the car into a RWD. In auto I can easily get the tail to come way out in a corner exit if I'm too heavy with the throttle, so power oversteer is possible. I'm convinced it's suspension setup. Anyway, I imagine car setup and driving style make a difference so this may not apply fully to someone else.
| Hyper | 10-10-2005 12:54 AM |
hm, that's interesting
those of you who run auto mode, do you ever unlock it by handbrake in really right turns or you feel that auto can get you out of there?
how exactly does auto behave in turns like that?
those of you who run auto mode, do you ever unlock it by handbrake in really right turns or you feel that auto can get you out of there?
how exactly does auto behave in turns like that?
| WRXedUSA | 10-10-2005 09:58 AM |
Let off the gas smoothly. Point and shoot. It will pull you out of the tightest of corners. The STi diffs rock.
| Funky | 10-10-2005 11:20 AM |
A full season of AutoX'ing my '05 in A-Stock in a highly contested battle with two Corvettes, I use Auto all the time. It takes a bit of getting used to, but it is consistently faster than any manual settings I've tried.
| theicewall | 10-10-2005 11:46 AM |
simply put, in auto mode you should have faster times... however, in manual mode you will get more predicable handling characteristics in terms of oversteer and understeer because the diff is always the same. If your suspension is tuned right some of the lack of predicability in the auto can be reduced by giving the car the handling characteristics you want.
| sciolist | 10-10-2005 11:46 AM |
Auto.
| trhoppe | 10-10-2005 12:22 PM |
[QUOTE=gregr01]'04 STi, manual @ 45/55.
I spent a test day early this year trying each setting after autoxing the previous season on auto. I found the times weren't much different, but the predictability on manual (especially at 45/55) was better--particularly oversteer--and therefore my confidence level in the car was higher and I went slightly faster.
Relevant setup...
Eibach springs, stock struts.
Whiteline sways 22 F & 20-24 R (set to 24), with stock endlinks.
PDE plates front (-2.9 camber/+6 caster), Cusco rear (-1.7).
Hoosier A3S04 225/45 on 17x8.5 SSR Comps.
Lots of road racing experience, a couple of years autox experience. I'm competitive regionally, a bit behind Sortor in overall PAX (different classes, though) in a car that's under-tired and less prepared (for now).[/QUOTE]
You know, that would be cool and all, except there is no 45/55 setting on the DCCD :p
-Tom
I spent a test day early this year trying each setting after autoxing the previous season on auto. I found the times weren't much different, but the predictability on manual (especially at 45/55) was better--particularly oversteer--and therefore my confidence level in the car was higher and I went slightly faster.
Relevant setup...
Eibach springs, stock struts.
Whiteline sways 22 F & 20-24 R (set to 24), with stock endlinks.
PDE plates front (-2.9 camber/+6 caster), Cusco rear (-1.7).
Hoosier A3S04 225/45 on 17x8.5 SSR Comps.
Lots of road racing experience, a couple of years autox experience. I'm competitive regionally, a bit behind Sortor in overall PAX (different classes, though) in a car that's under-tired and less prepared (for now).[/QUOTE]
You know, that would be cool and all, except there is no 45/55 setting on the DCCD :p
-Tom
| skuttledude | 10-10-2005 02:51 PM |
I'm using Auto.
suspension Mods:
Subaru 2004 Sti
HKS Hipermax RS coilovers 300# springs
Whiteline adjustable swaybars. 29mmfr and 26 rear
Hooiser Cup r-compounds (not AutoX compounds)
I've tried using manual in full rear lock/open and it proves to be wayy too much oversteer. (yes, fun but not fast) It also felt that there was not as much traction coming out of slow corners. Also when I do a bit of rear tire lift, I lose power and time as it "feels" the power is at the rear and there isn't much up front "pulling" me out of the turn.
Auto is what I keep it in. Good traction, great pull out of slow corners, some understreer but drivable and is better than rear lock in my opinion.
suspension Mods:
Subaru 2004 Sti
HKS Hipermax RS coilovers 300# springs
Whiteline adjustable swaybars. 29mmfr and 26 rear
Hooiser Cup r-compounds (not AutoX compounds)
I've tried using manual in full rear lock/open and it proves to be wayy too much oversteer. (yes, fun but not fast) It also felt that there was not as much traction coming out of slow corners. Also when I do a bit of rear tire lift, I lose power and time as it "feels" the power is at the rear and there isn't much up front "pulling" me out of the turn.
Auto is what I keep it in. Good traction, great pull out of slow corners, some understreer but drivable and is better than rear lock in my opinion.
| 409Industries | 10-10-2005 04:03 PM |
Auto for now, im still just getting comfortable with the car. DCCD settings dont seem to be a big issue for me at the moment.
STi pink springs
STi pink laterl links
STi pink trailing arms
Cusco swaybars
Cusco tiebars
STi pink springs
STi pink laterl links
STi pink trailing arms
Cusco swaybars
Cusco tiebars
| SubySTI06 | 10-10-2005 04:15 PM |
Manual full rear bias... its way easier to throttle steer and greatly reduces understeer... i have an 06
| trhoppe | 10-10-2005 04:22 PM |
[QUOTE=SubySTI06]Manual full rear bias... its way easier to throttle steer and greatly reduces understeer... i have an 06[/QUOTE]
Cause I'm sure you have tried this on a track or autox :lol:
-Tom
Cause I'm sure you have tried this on a track or autox :lol:
-Tom
| WRX-pilot | 10-10-2005 05:53 PM |
Full auto, and I can still throttle steer with my '05
P.S. Although irrelevant to the subject, if I were rally-xing I would probably go with full lock (50:50) after listening to my friends rant and looking at his times. I haven't got around to taking this car to the dirt yet though.
P.S. Although irrelevant to the subject, if I were rally-xing I would probably go with full lock (50:50) after listening to my friends rant and looking at his times. I haven't got around to taking this car to the dirt yet though.
| SubySTI06 | 10-10-2005 08:14 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Cause I'm sure you have tried this on a track or autox :lol:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Actually I did... Track AND autox.
Autox: Did 6 runs with Auto... picked up >1s on a 60s track with rear bias during the fun runs. I was understeering a lot with auto on, rotating the car was so much easier with rear bias, i'm actually able to get into position much better into a turn.
Track: Buttonwillow CCW #13 Ran full auto most of the day until the last few sessions. Did not notice a huge difference regardless of setting, but I did feel a very slight improvement in terms of understeer on tight corners especially on the off-ramp corner. Can't tell you if the times were any better between settings because I didnt do any timed runs, everything came from my "butt" sensors... :lol:
Now I'm no track-guru like some of u out there, but I don't consider myself a newbie either... :alien:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Actually I did... Track AND autox.
Autox: Did 6 runs with Auto... picked up >1s on a 60s track with rear bias during the fun runs. I was understeering a lot with auto on, rotating the car was so much easier with rear bias, i'm actually able to get into position much better into a turn.
Track: Buttonwillow CCW #13 Ran full auto most of the day until the last few sessions. Did not notice a huge difference regardless of setting, but I did feel a very slight improvement in terms of understeer on tight corners especially on the off-ramp corner. Can't tell you if the times were any better between settings because I didnt do any timed runs, everything came from my "butt" sensors... :lol:
Now I'm no track-guru like some of u out there, but I don't consider myself a newbie either... :alien:
| ChrisF | 10-10-2005 08:20 PM |
I wonder if there is a correlation between those with stock suspensions going faster with a variation of rear bias and modded cars going faster with auto? I know that in the various incarnations of my suspenion setup, understeer has all but been eliminated. Maybe in a setup car that has adequate steering, rear bias just upsets the car? Purely conjecture, but would be interested in opinions.
| lobelsteve | 10-10-2005 08:28 PM |
Dialed back into the green. Just feels better around the track.
| trhoppe | 10-10-2005 09:04 PM |
SubySTI06 - mmkay, I stand corrected ;)
I think it could also be a connection with suspension modifications. If you have the car setup not to understeer, auto is the best way to go as it affords the best corner exit compromise. When the suspension understeers though, the DCCD needs to be dialed closer to lock to have the car neutral out.
-Tom
I think it could also be a connection with suspension modifications. If you have the car setup not to understeer, auto is the best way to go as it affords the best corner exit compromise. When the suspension understeers though, the DCCD needs to be dialed closer to lock to have the car neutral out.
-Tom
| makofoto | 10-10-2005 10:13 PM |
Everyone is always at least a second faster during Fun Runs! That's why they're Fun Runs ... pressures off and you can let go! :devil:
| SubySTI06 | 10-10-2005 10:41 PM |
yeah that could be the case... but it just feels like night and day manual vs auto to me in an autox... my suspension is stock if that makes any difference.
Its also only been a month since owning this car. Coming from a FWD car, my perceptions may change over time once I understand the car more too. ;)
Its also only been a month since owning this car. Coming from a FWD car, my perceptions may change over time once I understand the car more too. ;)
| gregr01 | 10-10-2005 11:58 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]You know, that would be cool and all, except there is no 45/55 setting on the DCCD :p -Tom[/QUOTE]
Right. 2nd setting from full rear (or third setting from lock) is what I was trying to indicate.
Right. 2nd setting from full rear (or third setting from lock) is what I was trying to indicate.
| WRX_Mundi | 10-11-2005 01:50 AM |
[QUOTE=Hyper]those of you who run auto mode, do you ever unlock it by handbrake in really right turns or you feel that auto can get you out of there?
how exactly does auto behave in turns like that?[/QUOTE]No handbrake in any autocross turn unless you're doing crazy 360 spin gymkhana stuff or you're on gravel. That's assuming you can even do it reliably enough in the first place, which most people can't. Andy Hollis seemed rather dubious that there was ever a case that it'd be faster when I asked him (assuming normal autocross courses, surfaces, and cars). Now you probably look cool if you do it right -- that's another story. Rally driving is yet a different story.
We get a fair number of 180 cones, and there's one in the Evo phase 3 course as well (that's the Evolution autocross school -- no relation to the car). That's where you come in from some other maneuver (gate, slalom, whatever) pointed more or less at the single cone which you will have to do a 180 around and go back the way you came. That's usually the tightest turning you'll see in an autocross. Most of the people from Seattle hadn't ever seen one on their courses.
The real key is to slow down enough. If you go too fast, you just push wide. You can be in an oversteer happy Miata and it'll still push if you overdrive a slow corner. Next you want to enter way wide of the cone -- never drive right to it. For most people you'll still not go wide enough. You of course don't want to travel any extra distance out from the cone so at some point in your arc you'll almost touch it. On the real tight stuff you'll feel like you could get out and walk faster than the car's going, but it really gets around faster than the car-sliding stuff. Patience.
Anyway, while I'm not really fond of these, the car does well with them. For angles greater than 90 I usually find 1st gear to work better for me, though that's an additional complication. A little extra throttle on exit will help the car rotate if needed (power oversteer), at least the way I have mine set up. Exiting one of these in 1st gear does mean very careful throttle modulation as you're cornering at maximum grip (ideally) and now your right foot is controlling huge torque multiplication to the ground which will very easily break traction.
how exactly does auto behave in turns like that?[/QUOTE]No handbrake in any autocross turn unless you're doing crazy 360 spin gymkhana stuff or you're on gravel. That's assuming you can even do it reliably enough in the first place, which most people can't. Andy Hollis seemed rather dubious that there was ever a case that it'd be faster when I asked him (assuming normal autocross courses, surfaces, and cars). Now you probably look cool if you do it right -- that's another story. Rally driving is yet a different story.
We get a fair number of 180 cones, and there's one in the Evo phase 3 course as well (that's the Evolution autocross school -- no relation to the car). That's where you come in from some other maneuver (gate, slalom, whatever) pointed more or less at the single cone which you will have to do a 180 around and go back the way you came. That's usually the tightest turning you'll see in an autocross. Most of the people from Seattle hadn't ever seen one on their courses.
The real key is to slow down enough. If you go too fast, you just push wide. You can be in an oversteer happy Miata and it'll still push if you overdrive a slow corner. Next you want to enter way wide of the cone -- never drive right to it. For most people you'll still not go wide enough. You of course don't want to travel any extra distance out from the cone so at some point in your arc you'll almost touch it. On the real tight stuff you'll feel like you could get out and walk faster than the car's going, but it really gets around faster than the car-sliding stuff. Patience.
Anyway, while I'm not really fond of these, the car does well with them. For angles greater than 90 I usually find 1st gear to work better for me, though that's an additional complication. A little extra throttle on exit will help the car rotate if needed (power oversteer), at least the way I have mine set up. Exiting one of these in 1st gear does mean very careful throttle modulation as you're cornering at maximum grip (ideally) and now your right foot is controlling huge torque multiplication to the ground which will very easily break traction.
| Hyper | 10-11-2005 02:06 AM |
no no,
I certanly go from the idea of beeing faster, not looking cooler :p
the 180 with single cone is exactly the turn I had in mind, and by using the handbrake I did not meat actually pulling the thing but on the contrary just touching it so the diff unlocks
I tried that once and it seemed faster for me, since I was able to keep on the gas more then when trying to overcome using the apex arc
I might be wrong though, it was only my initial impression
I certanly go from the idea of beeing faster, not looking cooler :p
the 180 with single cone is exactly the turn I had in mind, and by using the handbrake I did not meat actually pulling the thing but on the contrary just touching it so the diff unlocks
I tried that once and it seemed faster for me, since I was able to keep on the gas more then when trying to overcome using the apex arc
I might be wrong though, it was only my initial impression
| WRXIN | 10-11-2005 07:59 PM |
Auto.
You know my experience Mako... :D
Like a few folks have said, suspension setup probably makes a difference as to what setting works best.
I have JDM STi pinks, front camber plates (-3.7), front 22mm and rear adjustable cusco bars, and a JDM strut tower bar up front.
I've had the rear bar in full stiff and it worked great on bigger faster courses and I sucked bad a few weeks ago on a short, tighter course. Way too much oversteer. Lesson learned there...
Others have driven my car and hated the setup. I like it. Which leads me to my next obvious point, the driver makes a lot of the difference. And in this case I don't mean skill as much as comfort level with a certain setup. I like the oversteering-type feel. I grew up with rear wheel drive cars and I feel more comfortable that way. Those who grew up with front drive cars might prefer a more neutral to understeering type feel. Where the DCCD is set should be matched to driver preference as much as anything else. A DCCD setup in auto might be faster for one person but slower for another.
I do believe that some folks drive their STi the first few times in Auto, experience understeer or something in the electronic programming they don't like, and immediately play with the DCCD. When I first started with the STi, I felt like the DCCD was fighting me and it was driving the car, not me. After A LOT of autocross seat time, I now finally use the DCCD to my advantage.
Moral of the story, be patient and learn what Subaru engineers built into the car. I know they are way smarter than I am. :D
You know my experience Mako... :D
Like a few folks have said, suspension setup probably makes a difference as to what setting works best.
I have JDM STi pinks, front camber plates (-3.7), front 22mm and rear adjustable cusco bars, and a JDM strut tower bar up front.
I've had the rear bar in full stiff and it worked great on bigger faster courses and I sucked bad a few weeks ago on a short, tighter course. Way too much oversteer. Lesson learned there...
Others have driven my car and hated the setup. I like it. Which leads me to my next obvious point, the driver makes a lot of the difference. And in this case I don't mean skill as much as comfort level with a certain setup. I like the oversteering-type feel. I grew up with rear wheel drive cars and I feel more comfortable that way. Those who grew up with front drive cars might prefer a more neutral to understeering type feel. Where the DCCD is set should be matched to driver preference as much as anything else. A DCCD setup in auto might be faster for one person but slower for another.
I do believe that some folks drive their STi the first few times in Auto, experience understeer or something in the electronic programming they don't like, and immediately play with the DCCD. When I first started with the STi, I felt like the DCCD was fighting me and it was driving the car, not me. After A LOT of autocross seat time, I now finally use the DCCD to my advantage.
Moral of the story, be patient and learn what Subaru engineers built into the car. I know they are way smarter than I am. :D
| WRX_Mundi | 10-11-2005 08:44 PM |
Hyper, sorry I understand what you mean now. I've never even tried doing that -- too busy steering and looking ahead to try finding an oddly placed button. Sort of like the intercooler sprayer -- I may use it once at the line, but never on course. 5 hp just isn't worth the loss of concentration for me.
When I moved from my Miata to the STi I just left it in auto to start with. I had [u]so[/u] much more to work on and changing the diff settings all the time wouldn't help. Only after I felt I could get at least somewhat consistent times on a course as well as be able to drive the car competently did I start experimenting with it seriously. I was very happy to find it worked best for me on Auto because it's one less thing to have to adjust.
Some people may have a car setup that works better with it in manual. Certainly some drivers might like it better in another setting. That can be a huge help -- being comfortable with the car, able to use more of its potential, and just [i]drive[/i] is worth a lot.
I wonder if any has tried the [url=http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/mod-CMpro-listpages-subid-15.phtml]Rocket Rally EMCD/DCCD ECU remaps[/url]. Sounds like it could be interesting if done right for autocross, but rather expensive. Probably much more useful for rally.
When I moved from my Miata to the STi I just left it in auto to start with. I had [u]so[/u] much more to work on and changing the diff settings all the time wouldn't help. Only after I felt I could get at least somewhat consistent times on a course as well as be able to drive the car competently did I start experimenting with it seriously. I was very happy to find it worked best for me on Auto because it's one less thing to have to adjust.
Some people may have a car setup that works better with it in manual. Certainly some drivers might like it better in another setting. That can be a huge help -- being comfortable with the car, able to use more of its potential, and just [i]drive[/i] is worth a lot.
I wonder if any has tried the [url=http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/mod-CMpro-listpages-subid-15.phtml]Rocket Rally EMCD/DCCD ECU remaps[/url]. Sounds like it could be interesting if done right for autocross, but rather expensive. Probably much more useful for rally.
| Hyper | 10-11-2005 10:16 PM |
don't forget about [URL=http://www.neetronics.com/neet/sensors-and-electronics/subaru-dccd-controller-2.html]neetronics[/URL]
they have a programable units too, my friend has one and he loves it
they have a programable units too, my friend has one and he loves it
| BlueSTI4Me | 10-11-2005 10:21 PM |
Auto for some reason I think bytes and bits can react faster!
Blue
Blue
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