| makeway | 08-03-2002 06:53 PM |
Roll Cage
Looking for a scca rally roll cage for my 96 CP in the PA area any recommendations? Prices?:confused:
| HoRo1 | 08-04-2002 03:43 PM |
Doesn't GoodFinder (do a search) have a lot of stuff about roll cages?
| GoodFinder | 08-04-2002 04:57 PM |
Here are three recent threads in i-Club where we've talked about roll cage considerations (some of it yes is specific to the WRX but there are elements that apply to any car cage consideration):
[B][URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=216106&referrerid=8943]Autopower 4-Point Race Roll Bar in WRX[/URL][/B]
[B][URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=212114&referrerid=8943]Don't Harness Without Rollover Protection![/URL][/B]
[B][URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=180532&referrerid=8943]Roll Bars & Cages Available for WRX[/URL][/B]
Cheers,
GoodFinder :)
[B][URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=216106&referrerid=8943]Autopower 4-Point Race Roll Bar in WRX[/URL][/B]
[B][URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=212114&referrerid=8943]Don't Harness Without Rollover Protection![/URL][/B]
[B][URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=180532&referrerid=8943]Roll Bars & Cages Available for WRX[/URL][/B]
Cheers,
GoodFinder :)
| makeway | 08-06-2002 10:26 PM |
Roll Cage
Thank You!:) :) :)
| Jon Bogert | 08-06-2002 11:26 PM |
Please [i]don't[/i] buy an off the shelf roll cage that is not specifically designed for the loads encountered in rally. The SCCA rally roll cage rules are a bare minimum starting point, and a good cage builder will build upon them to keep you safe and reinforce the structure of the car.
Also, as a beginning rallyist, you need to be concerned about repairability as well as one-shot save-your-life functionality. The so-called FIA approved cages you see that use minimum standard tubing to save weight will save your butt... once. But then you will have to spend $000s replacing tweaked tubes.
Go to a shop that knows what they're doing and let them build you a safe, durable rally cage. It will cost a lot, but that's the price of admission.
Suggestions: Rallispec in NJ or Union 7 in West Chester.
Also, as a beginning rallyist, you need to be concerned about repairability as well as one-shot save-your-life functionality. The so-called FIA approved cages you see that use minimum standard tubing to save weight will save your butt... once. But then you will have to spend $000s replacing tweaked tubes.
Go to a shop that knows what they're doing and let them build you a safe, durable rally cage. It will cost a lot, but that's the price of admission.
Suggestions: Rallispec in NJ or Union 7 in West Chester.
| Thug | 08-07-2002 07:51 AM |
Hey Jon,
How much is Union 7 charging for a PGT cage these days? We had one of their cages in the Mazda and I thought it was well made.
How much is Union 7 charging for a PGT cage these days? We had one of their cages in the Mazda and I thought it was well made.
| Jon Bogert | 08-07-2002 10:15 AM |
A little to a lot. ;) To do a full custom maximum cage where the tubing follows the shell precisely and is tied in everywhere--about $4-5k. That includes reinforcing the strut towers and tying them together, a roof diagonal, and all sorts of neat stuff. That assumes a stripped shell to start with.
You should talk to him directly. And take a look at the Mirant rally car he's building. It's so underweight he put in a rollcage that could support an Abrahms tank driving over it.
Edit: Bert just got a contract doing some really high-end design stuff for a "major European tuner" so he's not doing any new cages for the immediate future.
You should talk to him directly. And take a look at the Mirant rally car he's building. It's so underweight he put in a rollcage that could support an Abrahms tank driving over it.
Edit: Bert just got a contract doing some really high-end design stuff for a "major European tuner" so he's not doing any new cages for the immediate future.
| Thug | 08-07-2002 10:42 PM |
Thanx Jon. I actually got a quote from Rallispec today that looks a whole lot better than that number. And Ive seen thier cage work and Im very happy with it.
| elgorey | 08-08-2002 02:26 PM |
Yikes. 4k-5k is way too much for a cage.
There are local builders here in viginia that make some of the most overbuilt cages I have ever seen for ~$1k
There are local builders here in viginia that make some of the most overbuilt cages I have ever seen for ~$1k
| Jon Bogert | 08-08-2002 03:34 PM |
I knew this would be a non-productive discussion as soon as I posted prices. You pay what you pay and you get what you get, just like everything else in life.
I'm sure Rallispec will do a fine job for a fair price--but there're a lot of people out there making cages out of exhaust pipe with welds that look like bird droppings.
I'm sure Rallispec will do a fine job for a fair price--but there're a lot of people out there making cages out of exhaust pipe with welds that look like bird droppings.
| Thug | 08-08-2002 03:47 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]I knew this would be a non-productive discussion as soon as I posted prices. You pay what you pay and you get what you get, just like everything else in life.
I'm sure Rallispec will do a fine job for a fair price--but there're a lot of people out there making cages out of exhaust pipe with welds that look like bird droppings. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh I know what you're saying, Jon. Ive been on the right side of a couple cars now and I always inspect the cage before Im dedicated to going anywhere in it. But there is a point where it gets ridiculous. I have no desire to spend the 8 grand that Vermont Sportscar wanted to do my cage.
[B]I knew this would be a non-productive discussion as soon as I posted prices. You pay what you pay and you get what you get, just like everything else in life.
I'm sure Rallispec will do a fine job for a fair price--but there're a lot of people out there making cages out of exhaust pipe with welds that look like bird droppings. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh I know what you're saying, Jon. Ive been on the right side of a couple cars now and I always inspect the cage before Im dedicated to going anywhere in it. But there is a point where it gets ridiculous. I have no desire to spend the 8 grand that Vermont Sportscar wanted to do my cage.
| elgorey | 08-08-2002 03:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]I knew this would be a non-productive discussion as soon as I posted prices. You pay what you pay and you get what you get, just like everything else in life.
I'm sure Rallispec will do a fine job for a fair price--but there're a lot of people out there making cages out of exhaust pipe with welds that look like bird droppings. [/B][/QUOTE]
Why does price make it non-productive? Money is a huge part of motorsports, and without huge sponsorship deals, most people cannot afford to have a cage with a big name attached to it.
The place here that does cages are not exhaust pipe and the welds are very clean and professional. The cages make autopower cages look like kiddie toys. Practically a wall of pipes on the side protection and the roof supports are amazing.
There really isnt any point IMO, to pay 5 times as much for a cage that will not be any better.
[B]I knew this would be a non-productive discussion as soon as I posted prices. You pay what you pay and you get what you get, just like everything else in life.
I'm sure Rallispec will do a fine job for a fair price--but there're a lot of people out there making cages out of exhaust pipe with welds that look like bird droppings. [/B][/QUOTE]
Why does price make it non-productive? Money is a huge part of motorsports, and without huge sponsorship deals, most people cannot afford to have a cage with a big name attached to it.
The place here that does cages are not exhaust pipe and the welds are very clean and professional. The cages make autopower cages look like kiddie toys. Practically a wall of pipes on the side protection and the roof supports are amazing.
There really isnt any point IMO, to pay 5 times as much for a cage that will not be any better.
| makeway | 08-08-2002 07:42 PM |
Help
Thanks, I'm sure you have my well being in mind, I took a look at the web site and for the money it looks (sounds) good. Can I add some more to this? Is it a good place to start? and I'm not looking foward to an off, I just want to finish the stage!Please more help!:confused:
| Jon Bogert | 08-09-2002 01:06 PM |
$1000 less the cost of high-strength steel tubing / 50-70 man hours = poverty for your engineers and welders. If you can get a good full-custom rally cage built for $1000, more power to you, but most shops are in business to make money. If they're making money on a $1000 cage... well, draw your own conclusions.
| Dobes | 08-09-2002 01:45 PM |
If you're price shopping for rollcages make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Union 7 no doubt makes nice cages that are pretty damn expensive, but he's probably quoting you for strut braces that may or may not require engine removal, he may or may not be removing windows to access welds, he may or may not be removing the dashboard, etc. All these things need to be considered.
$1,000 seems seriously low for a rollcage. At $50/hr that's only 20 hours of labor. That does not include materials which needless to say will cost money. 20 hours of labor is a little on the light side to install a rollcage in my opinion.
Oh, and I have yet to see what you are exactly looking for. Telling a shop you want a "rally" rollcage for SCCA will get you a hundred different things if you ask a hundred different shops.
JD
$1,000 seems seriously low for a rollcage. At $50/hr that's only 20 hours of labor. That does not include materials which needless to say will cost money. 20 hours of labor is a little on the light side to install a rollcage in my opinion.
Oh, and I have yet to see what you are exactly looking for. Telling a shop you want a "rally" rollcage for SCCA will get you a hundred different things if you ask a hundred different shops.
JD
| makeway | 08-09-2002 07:58 PM |
Roll cage
The cage I was looking at was the one on Paul Eklunds web site I think it goes for $1400.00 and you weld it in your self. It seams to me like it is a good place to start seeing as how it is SCCA approved for group-N and if this is just a base can't I add extra bars and braces to this? Am I way off in my thinking here? Please more help, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, keep them comming.:)
| randy zimmer | 08-10-2002 08:49 AM |
cage builder
Jon Bottoms and I had our 1st gen Impreza cages done at G-Force Race Cars in Tonawanda, NY
Call Jon Salemi at 716-693-8533
Bottoms credits the cage with saving his car at STPR from a total.
Tonawanda is between Buffalo and Niagara Falls.
rz
pics at:
[url]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/subycage/[/url]
also:
[url]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/new93impreza/[/url]
[IMG]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/new93impreza/inside%20r.jpg[/IMG]
Call Jon Salemi at 716-693-8533
Bottoms credits the cage with saving his car at STPR from a total.
Tonawanda is between Buffalo and Niagara Falls.
rz
pics at:
[url]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/subycage/[/url]
also:
[url]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/new93impreza/[/url]
[IMG]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/new93impreza/inside%20r.jpg[/IMG]
| makeway | 08-14-2002 08:01 PM |
rollcage
Bump it up!:lol:
| Snowrider | 08-14-2002 09:26 PM |
if your anywhere near Vermont. Vermont Sports car builds some sweet cagesfor less then that rally spec price jon quoted. VT sports car used to build the cars for the Subaru Rally Team USA so i think they know what they are doing. Oly reason trhere not building the cars anymore is cause they wanted to move them to Michigan and The guys didnt wanna move so Prodrive pulled out on them. There all away at the rally this week but Nelson might be able to quote you aprice he'll be there. or contact clint fast later next week when they get back. Info is at [url]www.vtcar.com[/url] I was quoted 2k for a cage to be put in my GC8.
| Snowrider | 08-14-2002 09:27 PM |
Allmost forgot urt had his cage built there contact him 63alpine on the board for any pics anbd info you need.
| Thug | 08-14-2002 10:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Snowrider [/i]
[B]if your anywhere near Vermont. Vermont Sports car builds some sweet cagesfor less then that rally spec price jon quoted. VT sports car used to build the cars for the Subaru Rally Team USA so i think they know what they are doing. Oly reason trhere not building the cars anymore is cause they wanted to move them to Michigan and The guys didnt wanna move so Prodrive pulled out on them. There all away at the rally this week but Nelson might be able to quote you aprice he'll be there. or contact clint fast later next week when they get back. Info is at [url]www.vtcar.com[/url] I was quoted 2k for a cage to be put in my GC8. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's funny. I was quoted closer to $7K for a PGT cage from them.
Also, Jon gave a Union 7 estimate, not a Rallispec estimate. Rallispec quote me [b]a lot[/b] less than VT SportsCar did. And Ive seen both shop's cages before. VT SCs are cosmetically nicer, but I dont think they're any safer. So I think I'll save myself $5K.
[B]if your anywhere near Vermont. Vermont Sports car builds some sweet cagesfor less then that rally spec price jon quoted. VT sports car used to build the cars for the Subaru Rally Team USA so i think they know what they are doing. Oly reason trhere not building the cars anymore is cause they wanted to move them to Michigan and The guys didnt wanna move so Prodrive pulled out on them. There all away at the rally this week but Nelson might be able to quote you aprice he'll be there. or contact clint fast later next week when they get back. Info is at [url]www.vtcar.com[/url] I was quoted 2k for a cage to be put in my GC8. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's funny. I was quoted closer to $7K for a PGT cage from them.
Also, Jon gave a Union 7 estimate, not a Rallispec estimate. Rallispec quote me [b]a lot[/b] less than VT SportsCar did. And Ive seen both shop's cages before. VT SCs are cosmetically nicer, but I dont think they're any safer. So I think I'll save myself $5K.
| makeway | 08-14-2002 11:26 PM |
Price
Maybe they realy like you!:rolleyes:
| makeway | 08-17-2002 09:12 PM |
Roll cage
Does any one have any thoughts on the sparco roll cage? FF45 steel, attaches to thefront suspension pick up points, comes withmounting plates and bolts, and it comes unpainted.:confused:
| vivace | 08-17-2002 11:13 PM |
if your in Pa. Call Rocky, @ ILP Performance. 610-737-0884
Warning I'm biased because he is building my rally celica in his spare time and when I have the money to buy parts. also I help him out time to time.
Bert/Union-7 (great work, just look at Jon's celica but charges a premimum, and not taking on new jobs)
Rallispec is Very Good, and I'm sure the price is in line. I couldn't afford it but I would put their work right up there with union-7 (first check their schedule since they are usually booked pretty far in advance)
Rocky Is great too, he has pictures of the 4 points he sells on his website. [url]www.ilpperformance.com/barpage.htm[/url]
Rock's new shop should be going on-line the begining of next month so I know he will be looking to keep the new shop running :-) and I couldn't touch the price of what he wanted to do the work.
that is about it in the close philly area.
good luck
Jeff
Warning I'm biased because he is building my rally celica in his spare time and when I have the money to buy parts. also I help him out time to time.
Bert/Union-7 (great work, just look at Jon's celica but charges a premimum, and not taking on new jobs)
Rallispec is Very Good, and I'm sure the price is in line. I couldn't afford it but I would put their work right up there with union-7 (first check their schedule since they are usually booked pretty far in advance)
Rocky Is great too, he has pictures of the 4 points he sells on his website. [url]www.ilpperformance.com/barpage.htm[/url]
Rock's new shop should be going on-line the begining of next month so I know he will be looking to keep the new shop running :-) and I couldn't touch the price of what he wanted to do the work.
that is about it in the close philly area.
good luck
Jeff
| RallyHawk | 08-17-2002 11:31 PM |
Union 7 has done a few of my cages and Jon Bogert can verify the quality. Now I can supply FIA cages in either chromoly or CDS/DOM for installation by a shop in Delaware that is now doing my cage TIG & MIG welding. The welder is from New Zealand and does an excellent job-as good as Bert at Union 7 if not better. Depending what you want the cage for (rally, roadrace etc.), I could price it out for you.
If you are interested let me know and I can send you pix of the new one in our rally WRX to show you the quality.
Don't know too much about Rallispec's cages but from what I hear they do a good job too.
No matter what-anything under $3-4k would scare me unless you only want the cage for looks!! Something good is going to cost well over that-not one area you want to skimp on.
Brad
[email][email protected][/email]
[url]www.RHRPerformance.com[/url]
If you are interested let me know and I can send you pix of the new one in our rally WRX to show you the quality.
Don't know too much about Rallispec's cages but from what I hear they do a good job too.
No matter what-anything under $3-4k would scare me unless you only want the cage for looks!! Something good is going to cost well over that-not one area you want to skimp on.
Brad
[email][email protected][/email]
[url]www.RHRPerformance.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 08-18-2002 01:35 AM |
Ha! I'll tell Bert you said that... ;)
I had a long chat with Bert, who started his career building budget cages at night while working a day job. The main difference between a $1000-1500 cage and a $4000-5000 cage is attention to detail. Bert says he can absolutely build a cage in <20 hours, but it will not be very well tailored to the interior of the car. If you look at the typical bolt-in (or cheap weld-in) cage, it is basically a structure of tubes built separately from the unibody. The extra hours go into making the cage an extension of the unibody--tied in everywhere--so it becomes one integrated unit for extra rigidity and safety.
So the devil--and the dollars--are in the details. Go to a rally with a digital camera and take a few shots of the cage details in the Parc Expose. From experience I can tell you that Prodrive gets annoyed when you do this :D , but most guys are more than happy to show off their workmanship. When you're getting a quote, show the pics to the shop and ask if they'll reinforce and triangulate the suspension mounting points, use adequate gussets, stitch the cage to the A and B pillar and door sill, etc, etc.
I had a long chat with Bert, who started his career building budget cages at night while working a day job. The main difference between a $1000-1500 cage and a $4000-5000 cage is attention to detail. Bert says he can absolutely build a cage in <20 hours, but it will not be very well tailored to the interior of the car. If you look at the typical bolt-in (or cheap weld-in) cage, it is basically a structure of tubes built separately from the unibody. The extra hours go into making the cage an extension of the unibody--tied in everywhere--so it becomes one integrated unit for extra rigidity and safety.
So the devil--and the dollars--are in the details. Go to a rally with a digital camera and take a few shots of the cage details in the Parc Expose. From experience I can tell you that Prodrive gets annoyed when you do this :D , but most guys are more than happy to show off their workmanship. When you're getting a quote, show the pics to the shop and ask if they'll reinforce and triangulate the suspension mounting points, use adequate gussets, stitch the cage to the A and B pillar and door sill, etc, etc.
| RallyHawk | 08-18-2002 09:44 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Ha! I'll tell Bert you said that... ;)
JUST KIDDING! I know Bert doesn't read I-Club so I thought I would throw that in ;) Actually-Bert is probably the BEST rally cage builder in the US. Having seen plenty of other cages by so called 'professional' builders-Bert's blows them away. Some cages I have seen scare the #$%& out of me-I never understand why anyone in their right mind would go for the lowest price install-there is a reason why some cages are cheap...
I think the cage in my Golf used 37 miles of tubing-mostly because I asked him to make it withstand a roll at 200 mph in reverse while cartwheeling of a cliff ;)
Luckily Jon and I haven't had to test the cage while upside down (yet!)-but a good cage will make you obviously feel much more secure when racing and keep your cars body (and yours) 100% together for a long time.
Brad
[url]www.RHRPerformance.com[/url]
btw: I have a Kevlar rear differantial guard for the Impreza on Ebay right now (yeah, I know-shameless plug) [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1851997280&rd=1[/url]
[B]Ha! I'll tell Bert you said that... ;)
JUST KIDDING! I know Bert doesn't read I-Club so I thought I would throw that in ;) Actually-Bert is probably the BEST rally cage builder in the US. Having seen plenty of other cages by so called 'professional' builders-Bert's blows them away. Some cages I have seen scare the #$%& out of me-I never understand why anyone in their right mind would go for the lowest price install-there is a reason why some cages are cheap...
I think the cage in my Golf used 37 miles of tubing-mostly because I asked him to make it withstand a roll at 200 mph in reverse while cartwheeling of a cliff ;)
Luckily Jon and I haven't had to test the cage while upside down (yet!)-but a good cage will make you obviously feel much more secure when racing and keep your cars body (and yours) 100% together for a long time.
Brad
[url]www.RHRPerformance.com[/url]
btw: I have a Kevlar rear differantial guard for the Impreza on Ebay right now (yeah, I know-shameless plug) [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1851997280&rd=1[/url]
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