| spazegun2213 | 08-31-2006 11:27 AM |
this can happen at anytime to anyone
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Alright guys and gals i figured i would share this with you all. I do NOT know the story that goes along with it, but i know the [B]driver was ok[/B]. This happened in the NASA HPDE (group 4) this past weekend at summit point.
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0053_std.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0054_std.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0055_std.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0056_std.jpg[/img]
It was a nasty crash but he walked away. I just wanted to post this to show that this can happen at ANY time to anyone on a race track. so do yourself a favor and the next time you think about adding HP to a track car, spend it on safety stuff.
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0053_std.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0054_std.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0055_std.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.europrints.us/06summit08/HPDE4/89/img_0056_std.jpg[/img]
It was a nasty crash but he walked away. I just wanted to post this to show that this can happen at ANY time to anyone on a race track. so do yourself a favor and the next time you think about adding HP to a track car, spend it on safety stuff.
| STISTL | 08-31-2006 11:36 AM |
Don't see any pics
| FNR32 | 08-31-2006 11:37 AM |
Aybabtu
| trhoppe | 08-31-2006 11:37 AM |
That was not an an HPDE as its a full race car and a single driver. If it was, then someone was doing SOMETHING wrong.
An HPDE is not somewhere where you would drive 10/10ths.
-Tom
An HPDE is not somewhere where you would drive 10/10ths.
-Tom
| spazegun2213 | 08-31-2006 11:44 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15086998]That was not an an HPDE as its a full race car and a single driver. If it was, then someone was doing SOMETHING wrong.
An HPDE is not somewhere where you would drive 10/10ths.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
he was in the instructors group in the HPDE when it happened, so there was NO racing involved. but again I dont know the whole story.
An HPDE is not somewhere where you would drive 10/10ths.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
he was in the instructors group in the HPDE when it happened, so there was NO racing involved. but again I dont know the whole story.
| TubeDriver | 08-31-2006 11:50 AM |
I have never, repeat never driven/instructed at an HPDE that did not have at least 1 off during the weekend.
Take a look at group 3/4/red cars these days. A lot of them are basically race cars (except they might lack the pit crew/data loggging/passive safety equipment/driver experience). Sub 3000lb cars with 400+ hp and Hoosiers are pretty common.
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15086998]That was not an an HPDE as its a full race car and a single driver. If it was, then someone was doing SOMETHING wrong.
An HPDE is not somewhere where you would drive 10/10ths.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Take a look at group 3/4/red cars these days. A lot of them are basically race cars (except they might lack the pit crew/data loggging/passive safety equipment/driver experience). Sub 3000lb cars with 400+ hp and Hoosiers are pretty common.
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15086998]That was not an an HPDE as its a full race car and a single driver. If it was, then someone was doing SOMETHING wrong.
An HPDE is not somewhere where you would drive 10/10ths.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
| ChrisDP | 08-31-2006 12:25 PM |
Either instructor group or time trial group.
| trhoppe | 08-31-2006 12:26 PM |
Exactly. The instructors group is NOT HPDE. Its the INSTRUCTORS. There is no "EDUCATION" going on. Its open passing usually on an open track with race cars. Its an open track session.
BIG difference.
-Tom
BIG difference.
-Tom
| spazegun2213 | 08-31-2006 12:56 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15087606]Exactly. The instructors group is NOT HPDE. Its the INSTRUCTORS. There is no "EDUCATION" going on. Its open passing usually on an open track with race cars. Its an open track session.
BIG difference.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
NASA HPDE 4 (instructors group)
they still use point bys and is [B]not[/B] open passing (at least for nasa-ma)
this is not the point, the point is the driver was fine. I just wanted to post up pictures and let everyone see what can happen on the track.
I'm glad i was not a street car, because he may not have faired so well.
BIG difference.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
NASA HPDE 4 (instructors group)
they still use point bys and is [B]not[/B] open passing (at least for nasa-ma)
this is not the point, the point is the driver was fine. I just wanted to post up pictures and let everyone see what can happen on the track.
I'm glad i was not a street car, because he may not have faired so well.
| CirrusWRX | 08-31-2006 12:57 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15087606]Exactly. The instructors group is NOT HPDE. Its the INSTRUCTORS. There is no "EDUCATION" going on. Its open passing usually on an open track with race cars. Its an open track session.
BIG difference.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Gotta disagree with you entirely. Instructors can and often do take out students in the right seat for a STUDENT to get some education.
HPDE events are inheritely NONCOMPETITIVE. There is no lap counter, no clock, therefore, no race. Call them instructors if you want, but given that nobody is competing for anything (other than perhaps ego inflation) they cannot win anything. If they can't win anything, then the only purpose for THEM to be out there, as instructors, is to gain experience, or, become more educated.
I would wager NO driver in the world from the n00best to the Schumacherest is ever "not learning" while in the car. Either doing an autox or a full blown race, you're continually honing your skills, learning the track nuances, trying some new technique, all in the name to be a better driver.
Instructors obviously (shouldn't, I hope) don't need to learn what an apex is or how to trail brake, but in their group where the rules are lax, it's still an opportunity to learn.
That's it and that's all. Anything more, IMO, is irresponsible during an HPDE, even if it's the "instructor" or RED or #4 group.
my .02, glad to hear the driver was okay, but as always, interested to know what happened. Overcooked a corner? Tire blowout or other mechanical failure? Driving at 11/10ths? Momentary mental lapse? Get bumped by somebody accidentally?
BIG difference.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Gotta disagree with you entirely. Instructors can and often do take out students in the right seat for a STUDENT to get some education.
HPDE events are inheritely NONCOMPETITIVE. There is no lap counter, no clock, therefore, no race. Call them instructors if you want, but given that nobody is competing for anything (other than perhaps ego inflation) they cannot win anything. If they can't win anything, then the only purpose for THEM to be out there, as instructors, is to gain experience, or, become more educated.
I would wager NO driver in the world from the n00best to the Schumacherest is ever "not learning" while in the car. Either doing an autox or a full blown race, you're continually honing your skills, learning the track nuances, trying some new technique, all in the name to be a better driver.
Instructors obviously (shouldn't, I hope) don't need to learn what an apex is or how to trail brake, but in their group where the rules are lax, it's still an opportunity to learn.
That's it and that's all. Anything more, IMO, is irresponsible during an HPDE, even if it's the "instructor" or RED or #4 group.
my .02, glad to hear the driver was okay, but as always, interested to know what happened. Overcooked a corner? Tire blowout or other mechanical failure? Driving at 11/10ths? Momentary mental lapse? Get bumped by somebody accidentally?
| spazegun2213 | 08-31-2006 01:07 PM |
ok, just in..
story is:
he locked up the brakes comming into T1 at summit main... more details to follow.
story is:
he locked up the brakes comming into T1 at summit main... more details to follow.
| TubeDriver | 08-31-2006 01:25 PM |
Glad to hear he is Ok.
The "instructor" group is not a race group, just an HPDE group for instructors that usually allows for point-by passing in corners (as opposed to more limited point-by passing areas for less experienced groups). No timing or racing is allowed.
Usually late braking in T1 results in going straight off into the nifty gravel pit conveniently located there. As long as you go straight off, it will slow you to a complete stop safely in around 20'. That happens all the time due to late braking or beginners finding out about street pad and fluid failure.
Maybe he continued fighting the car through the turn, oversteered and than suddenly regained traction and shot off on the inside? T1 is not that fast of a turn but he *looks* like he is carrying a LOT of speed.
[QUOTE=spazegun2213;15088196]ok, just in..
story is:
he locked up the brakes comming into T1 at summit main... more details to follow.[/QUOTE]
The "instructor" group is not a race group, just an HPDE group for instructors that usually allows for point-by passing in corners (as opposed to more limited point-by passing areas for less experienced groups). No timing or racing is allowed.
Usually late braking in T1 results in going straight off into the nifty gravel pit conveniently located there. As long as you go straight off, it will slow you to a complete stop safely in around 20'. That happens all the time due to late braking or beginners finding out about street pad and fluid failure.
Maybe he continued fighting the car through the turn, oversteered and than suddenly regained traction and shot off on the inside? T1 is not that fast of a turn but he *looks* like he is carrying a LOT of speed.
[QUOTE=spazegun2213;15088196]ok, just in..
story is:
he locked up the brakes comming into T1 at summit main... more details to follow.[/QUOTE]
| AndrewSS | 08-31-2006 03:41 PM |
That sucks... :(
Glad he was ok... I hate seeing people wreck at casual events :( (well, anywhere)
Glad he was ok... I hate seeing people wreck at casual events :( (well, anywhere)
| WgnWheel | 08-31-2006 05:56 PM |
wow, i've seen a few crashes in de4 but nothing that severe. i have seen more than my share of full-blown race cars, driving in de4 at 10/10ths which i think is unacceptable. de4 still contains drivers learning as much as they can and shouldn't have to worry about a race car, diving in a corner on hoosiers like he's attempting a new record. that's what race group is for. glad the driver was ok though.
| jweiss | 08-31-2006 07:32 PM |
In our NASA region (Rocky Mountain) NASA HPDE4 includes three groups of drivers: those that have been signed off for group4 by coming up through the other groups (HPDE 1, 2, 3), same but participating in the time trial, and instructors. Passing anywhere, no point-by required. If you want to pass someone in a corner or you don't complete a pass before a corner, you need to at least get your front wheels next to their door before they begin to turn in.
The instructors and hpde4 participants may or may not be driving at 10/10ths, but the time trialers are certainly.
The instructors and hpde4 participants may or may not be driving at 10/10ths, but the time trialers are certainly.
| spazegun2213 | 08-31-2006 07:42 PM |
Full story, the driver (not the owner) locked up the brakes going into turn one, which lead to the pictures.
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.
| yosemitemtb | 08-31-2006 09:26 PM |
[QUOTE=CirrusWRX;15088043]Gotta disagree with you entirely. Instructors can and often do take out students in the right seat for a STUDENT to get some education.
HPDE events are inheritely NONCOMPETITIVE. There is no lap counter, no clock, therefore, no race. Call them instructors if you want, but given that nobody is competing for anything (other than perhaps ego inflation) they cannot win anything. [COLOR="Red"] If they can't win anything, then the only purpose for THEM to be out there, as instructors, is to gain experience, or, become more educated.[/COLOR]
I would wager NO driver in the world from the n00best to the Schumacherest is ever "not learning" while in the car. Either doing an autox or a full blown race, you're continually honing your skills, learning the track nuances, trying some new technique, all in the name to be a better driver.
Instructors obviously (shouldn't, I hope) don't need to learn what an apex is or how to trail brake, but in their group where the rules are lax, it's still an opportunity to learn.
That's it and that's all. Anything more, IMO, is irresponsible during an HPDE, even if it's the "instructor" or RED or #4 group.
my .02, glad to hear the driver was okay, but as always, interested to know what happened. Overcooked a corner? Tire blowout or other mechanical failure? Driving at 11/10ths? Momentary mental lapse? Get bumped by somebody accidentally?[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree a little bit with the sentence I hi-lighted, one big reason for a group 4 driver to be out there is the same reason most of us participate in track events, for the thrill of it!
HPDE events are inheritely NONCOMPETITIVE. There is no lap counter, no clock, therefore, no race. Call them instructors if you want, but given that nobody is competing for anything (other than perhaps ego inflation) they cannot win anything. [COLOR="Red"] If they can't win anything, then the only purpose for THEM to be out there, as instructors, is to gain experience, or, become more educated.[/COLOR]
I would wager NO driver in the world from the n00best to the Schumacherest is ever "not learning" while in the car. Either doing an autox or a full blown race, you're continually honing your skills, learning the track nuances, trying some new technique, all in the name to be a better driver.
Instructors obviously (shouldn't, I hope) don't need to learn what an apex is or how to trail brake, but in their group where the rules are lax, it's still an opportunity to learn.
That's it and that's all. Anything more, IMO, is irresponsible during an HPDE, even if it's the "instructor" or RED or #4 group.
my .02, glad to hear the driver was okay, but as always, interested to know what happened. Overcooked a corner? Tire blowout or other mechanical failure? Driving at 11/10ths? Momentary mental lapse? Get bumped by somebody accidentally?[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree a little bit with the sentence I hi-lighted, one big reason for a group 4 driver to be out there is the same reason most of us participate in track events, for the thrill of it!
| DILLIGAF Racing | 08-31-2006 11:02 PM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213;15093570]Full story, the driver (not the owner) locked up the brakes going into turn one, which lead to the pictures.
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.[/QUOTE]
that will be added to the list of "this is whats done to the car" in the future.
Glad to see his is OK. This is the exact reason I am kinda leery tracking my STi. So I bought a Honda Civic that will be built Honda Challenge H1 rules, but it will be a LONG time before I race, if I race.
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.[/QUOTE]
that will be added to the list of "this is whats done to the car" in the future.
Glad to see his is OK. This is the exact reason I am kinda leery tracking my STi. So I bought a Honda Civic that will be built Honda Challenge H1 rules, but it will be a LONG time before I race, if I race.
| TubeDriver | 09-01-2006 10:01 AM |
My current track beater has no ABS and I can tell you that threshold braking is a little more challanging compared to an ABS equiped car. It took me a few events to get used to no ABS and I still occasionally prematurely lock up my left front on Shenandoah.
On the other end of the spectrum, I can barely/not get my ABS to kick in now on my autox car with Hoosiers and OEM pads. I think I need better front pads?
[QUOTE=spazegun2213;15093570]Full story, the driver (not the owner) locked up the brakes going into turn one, which lead to the pictures.
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.[/QUOTE]
On the other end of the spectrum, I can barely/not get my ABS to kick in now on my autox car with Hoosiers and OEM pads. I think I need better front pads?
[QUOTE=spazegun2213;15093570]Full story, the driver (not the owner) locked up the brakes going into turn one, which lead to the pictures.
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.[/QUOTE]
| adeliciouspizza | 09-01-2006 11:01 AM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213;15093570]Full story, the driver (not the owner) locked up the brakes going into turn one, which lead to the pictures.
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.[/QUOTE]
that seems like a lame excuse...
i would think any competent driver would be able to figure that out pretty quickly with a hard stab on the brakes...
something you would expect one to check before going into a corner that hot..
Background: the owner didnt tell the driver that his car does not have ABS. The driver drives a similar car WITH ABS.[/QUOTE]
that seems like a lame excuse...
i would think any competent driver would be able to figure that out pretty quickly with a hard stab on the brakes...
something you would expect one to check before going into a corner that hot..
| c'dalerider | 09-01-2006 11:27 AM |
wow. looks like the tires realy saved him and did their job. I def have reserves taking my street car on a track. I know id push it hard and dont realy want to f'itup. Maybe getting a saturn sky redline for playing at the track :devil:
My best friend instructs at Summit point alot. He drives a wrx wagon. I hope it was not him...jk. Mr. Rogers/rexfan is a VERY good driver....lol. ill point him towards this post.
My best friend instructs at Summit point alot. He drives a wrx wagon. I hope it was not him...jk. Mr. Rogers/rexfan is a VERY good driver....lol. ill point him towards this post.
| spazegun2213 | 09-01-2006 11:53 AM |
[QUOTE=weitek;15099876]that seems like a lame excuse...
i would think any competent driver would be able to figure that out pretty quickly with a hard stab on the brakes...
something you would expect one to check before going into a corner that hot..[/QUOTE]
I have heard from SEVERAL people that this driver knew what he was doing and was a good driver. He took the car out on a "Test" drive to shake down for a problem.... As you can see there was clearly still a problem with the car :(
i would think any competent driver would be able to figure that out pretty quickly with a hard stab on the brakes...
something you would expect one to check before going into a corner that hot..[/QUOTE]
I have heard from SEVERAL people that this driver knew what he was doing and was a good driver. He took the car out on a "Test" drive to shake down for a problem.... As you can see there was clearly still a problem with the car :(
| Easy Rider | 09-01-2006 12:30 PM |
Anyone notice the guy in the NSX has his elbow on the window sill?
Just find it odd.
Just find it odd.
| cooleyjb | 09-01-2006 01:08 PM |
Correct me if I'm wrong I've never been to Summit Point however it would appear this is happening in a turn to the left. The maps I've looked at online show the turn one to be a right turn. If I'm right then what turn is this in. If I'm wrong I'll buy you a beer next time I see ya.
| littlewhitewagon | 09-01-2006 02:40 PM |
Good thing for that cool cage he had in the car.
| Funky | 09-01-2006 03:03 PM |
Of all the HPDE & Trackdays I've been to over the years, I've ONLY seen wrecks involving people in the Advanced / High Performance groups. These are people who are out there for the fun, and the ego boost of passing <insert whatever car is in front of them>.
If you are new to HPDE events, and still have a healthy fear of wrecking your car to keep your ego in check, you are VERY unlikely to have any issues like this.
Nonetheless, be safe out there.
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15087606]Exactly. The instructors group is NOT HPDE. Its the INSTRUCTORS. There is no "EDUCATION" going on. Its open passing usually on an open track with race cars. Its an open track session.
BIG difference.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
If you are new to HPDE events, and still have a healthy fear of wrecking your car to keep your ego in check, you are VERY unlikely to have any issues like this.
Nonetheless, be safe out there.
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15087606]Exactly. The instructors group is NOT HPDE. Its the INSTRUCTORS. There is no "EDUCATION" going on. Its open passing usually on an open track with race cars. Its an open track session.
BIG difference.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
| CirrusWRX | 09-04-2006 02:50 PM |
[QUOTE=Easy Rider;15101117]Anyone notice the guy in the NSX has his elbow on the window sill?
Just find it odd.[/QUOTE]
Don't think he's sticking his elbow out the window, more likely he's making a right turn. Put your hands on a steering wheel and make a right turn with your hands planted at 9 and 3 o'clock - notice your left elbow sticks up. Window nets FTW!
Just find it odd.[/QUOTE]
Don't think he's sticking his elbow out the window, more likely he's making a right turn. Put your hands on a steering wheel and make a right turn with your hands planted at 9 and 3 o'clock - notice your left elbow sticks up. Window nets FTW!
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