| DJ_STI | 04-04-2006 08:16 PM |
Track before autox
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I have always wanted to take driving lessons and I have the perfect opportunity. Fortunately, my parents accountant is a instructor at a local track and is encouraging me to come join him for a day at the track for driving lessons. I'm worried that I'm not ready for it because most people I know first started at autox and after a few seasons moved up to track. Do you think I will be okay as long as I have common sense? Is it safe to say I'll still be okay on the track even without any sort of real driving experience under my belt? Or should I deny his offer and take him up on it after a few sessions of autox?
| grippgoat | 04-04-2006 08:21 PM |
You'll be fine. Just take it in baby steps, listen to what he's trying to teach you, and don't push yourself past where you're comfortable. And be smooth.
-Mike
-Mike
| boundy3 | 04-04-2006 08:23 PM |
Go, have fun, don't push the car beyond your limits and what your comfortable with. You will learn a lot by just slowing increasing speed, don't immeaditly drive 100% untill you fully understand the track and how your car responds.
Most important thing is to not shunt the car, since shaving a few tenths on a non-competive drive is not worth risking your car.
Most important thing is to not shunt the car, since shaving a few tenths on a non-competive drive is not worth risking your car.
| skuttledude | 04-04-2006 08:31 PM |
you dont have to AX before track.
However, just like others mentioned, take it very easy. You have a fast car that was born for track use.
Have fun, keep a good eye on tire pressures and oil, and drink plenty of water and good food as a HPDE can be a mentally challenging weekend.
However, just like others mentioned, take it very easy. You have a fast car that was born for track use.
Have fun, keep a good eye on tire pressures and oil, and drink plenty of water and good food as a HPDE can be a mentally challenging weekend.
| MattSTi | 04-05-2006 12:14 AM |
AutoX and open track are completely different. Definitely go for the track day, you will have a blast. Remember it's not a race and leave your ego at home, you will learn a lot about driving and your car.
-Matt
-Matt
| MaxSTi05 | 04-05-2006 12:48 AM |
[QUOTE=MattSTi]AutoX and open track are completely different. Definitely go for the track day, you will have a blast. Remember it's not a race and leave your ego at home, you will learn a lot about driving and your car.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
They are certainly different, but the definite plus with auto-x is that you can find the upper limits of your car very quickly in terms of braking and cornering thresholds, in a much safer environment, with less overall speed. More seat-of-pants feel when the car passes it's limits - spins, overshooting corners, etc. Definitely get a few auto-x runs in if you have the chance. The key benefit is you will be [B]smoother[/B] in the end, tying corners, using apexes, late braking, because that is how you will get fast times.
I do agree on your second point, but pick up the pace incrementally [B]after[/B] you're comfortable with knowing the track. Less room for error on track days, higher risk for damage also.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
They are certainly different, but the definite plus with auto-x is that you can find the upper limits of your car very quickly in terms of braking and cornering thresholds, in a much safer environment, with less overall speed. More seat-of-pants feel when the car passes it's limits - spins, overshooting corners, etc. Definitely get a few auto-x runs in if you have the chance. The key benefit is you will be [B]smoother[/B] in the end, tying corners, using apexes, late braking, because that is how you will get fast times.
I do agree on your second point, but pick up the pace incrementally [B]after[/B] you're comfortable with knowing the track. Less room for error on track days, higher risk for damage also.
| doghauler | 04-05-2006 09:12 PM |
Do it! You'll have an instructor in the car with you, talking you through the finer points. Stay focused and you'll really have a blast. I am one of the rare folks that really doesn't like auto-xing, but I love track days. I would much rather be lapping on a track than trying to shave 10ths off a cone course. I would suggest you try both. LEt us know how it goes!
| grippgoat | 04-05-2006 09:29 PM |
[QUOTE=doghauler]Do it! You'll have an instructor in the car with you, talking you through the finer points. Stay focused and you'll really have a blast. I am one of the rare folks that really doesn't like auto-xing, but I love track days. I would much rather be lapping on a track than trying to shave 10ths off a cone course. I would suggest you try both. LEt us know how it goes![/QUOTE]
I'd love auto-x if I could get 20+ runs and actually have the chance to start shaving 10ths. In my region, it's usually 3 runs. Not a very good time investment, and so little seat time, it's even a dubious monetary investment. Considering $150-200 will get me usually about 2 hours of track time, $30ish for 3 minutes or less doesn't scale.
-Mike
I'd love auto-x if I could get 20+ runs and actually have the chance to start shaving 10ths. In my region, it's usually 3 runs. Not a very good time investment, and so little seat time, it's even a dubious monetary investment. Considering $150-200 will get me usually about 2 hours of track time, $30ish for 3 minutes or less doesn't scale.
-Mike
| RoninSTI | 04-06-2006 11:47 AM |
Definitely go to the track!! it's the best experience I've ever had. Having an instructor will make you feel much more at ease as well. Also have him drive your car for 5-10 laps, that way you can get a feel for the track as well as how your car handles it.
| Kostamojen | 04-06-2006 02:50 PM |
I'd say do it...
But yes, Auto-x first DOES help. And some people do have trouble going from Track to auto-x, or so we've heard...
But yes, Auto-x first DOES help. And some people do have trouble going from Track to auto-x, or so we've heard...
| asquaredrex | 04-06-2006 03:11 PM |
I AutoX'd for 5 years before going to the track and, in my *opinion*, AutoX doesn't help for the track at all. Many instructors have also told me the same thing.
As everyone else says, just go easy, be a sponge for information, and work on the basics. The Evo is a good partner at the track, very communicative and forgiving.
As everyone else says, just go easy, be a sponge for information, and work on the basics. The Evo is a good partner at the track, very communicative and forgiving.
| CirrusWRX | 04-06-2006 03:57 PM |
My girlfriend never ax'd before attending her first track day.
The only problem that she had after having 3 track days going to the auto-x was, "What do you mean I have to run around and pick up cones? And why do we only get to drive for 8 minutes the whole day? F this!" :lol:
track day > autox
The only problem that she had after having 3 track days going to the auto-x was, "What do you mean I have to run around and pick up cones? And why do we only get to drive for 8 minutes the whole day? F this!" :lol:
track day > autox
| Kostamojen | 04-06-2006 10:27 PM |
[QUOTE=asquaredrex]I AutoX'd for 5 years before going to the track and, in my *opinion*, AutoX doesn't help for the track at all. Many instructors have also told me the same thing.
[/QUOTE]
Worked for me. Ya, it took a session or two to figure out I didnt have to drive the car as rough as you do during an Autox, but because I knew my cars limits and how it responded in certain situations it was much easier to go nice and quick and have alot of fun learning using the whole track :)
[/QUOTE]
Worked for me. Ya, it took a session or two to figure out I didnt have to drive the car as rough as you do during an Autox, but because I knew my cars limits and how it responded in certain situations it was much easier to go nice and quick and have alot of fun learning using the whole track :)
| sciolist | 04-07-2006 11:57 AM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]I'd love auto-x if I could get 20+ runs and actually have the chance to start shaving 10ths. In my region, it's usually 3 runs. Not a very good time investment, and so little seat time, it's even a dubious monetary investment. Considering $150-200 will get me usually about 2 hours of track time, $30ish for 3 minutes or less doesn't scale.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
AutoX is a competitive sporting event. Lapping days are advanced driver ed. Two completely different things. Comparing them on the basis of relative cost or "seat time" is nonsense. One goes to autoX to try to win and advance. There isn't even a competitive component to an HPDE. This is like comparing entering a fight to spending all day at the gym. You training for a race, or racing for a train?
Also, there's a huge social aspect to autoX. A lot of the instructional information is passed on as an oral tradition. You're not just paying some road racer to tolerate you for a few hours and blow a little smoke up your skirt... you're actually participating in something.
A rank greenhorn can show up at an autoX event with an OE car, and put it right at - or over the limit, repeatedly. You'd better *hope* that doesn't happen at an HPDE.
If you're too lazy to run around and pick up a few pylons, you're probably not going to make it very far in a structured activity anyway.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
AutoX is a competitive sporting event. Lapping days are advanced driver ed. Two completely different things. Comparing them on the basis of relative cost or "seat time" is nonsense. One goes to autoX to try to win and advance. There isn't even a competitive component to an HPDE. This is like comparing entering a fight to spending all day at the gym. You training for a race, or racing for a train?
Also, there's a huge social aspect to autoX. A lot of the instructional information is passed on as an oral tradition. You're not just paying some road racer to tolerate you for a few hours and blow a little smoke up your skirt... you're actually participating in something.
A rank greenhorn can show up at an autoX event with an OE car, and put it right at - or over the limit, repeatedly. You'd better *hope* that doesn't happen at an HPDE.
If you're too lazy to run around and pick up a few pylons, you're probably not going to make it very far in a structured activity anyway.
| racekar | 04-07-2006 12:59 PM |
for the money track is def worth it, way more track time per dollar not even a comparison.
auto x is safer but i just cant get into going around cones
auto x is safer but i just cant get into going around cones
| asquaredrex | 04-07-2006 02:11 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]AutoX is a competitive sporting event. Lapping days are advanced driver ed. Two completely different things. Comparing them on the basis of relative cost or "seat time" is nonsense. One goes to autoX to try to win and advance. There isn't even a competitive component to an HPDE. This is like comparing entering a fight to spending all day at the gym. You training for a race, or racing for a train?[/QUOTE]
Actually, COMSCC, with whom I run my track days, has classes and runs time trials. Basically the same competitive structure and process as AutoX, just on a race track.
[QUOTE=sciolist]Also, there's a huge social aspect to autoX. A lot of the instructional information is passed on as an oral tradition. You're not just paying some road racer to tolerate you for a few hours and blow a little smoke up your skirt... you're actually participating in something.[/quote]
The social aspect holds true with track days. As any of the NESIC trackhos. Also, road racing can be dangerous, so I think it's a smart idea to have instructors run with new drivers to help teach them. Having an experienced driver sitting next to me commenting on my inputs in realtime, along with a lap timer and a few 20 minute sessions, did wonders for my consistency and knowledge on-track.
[QUOTE=sciolist]A rank greenhorn can show up at an autoX event with an OE car, and put it right at - or over the limit, repeatedly. You'd better *hope* that doesn't happen at an HPDE.[/quote]
True, but if you go to a track day, you'll notice it's not the novices that are crashing. It's actually the experienced people who are racing for points, riding the limit, understand the consequences, and typically have the approprate safety systems built into their vehicles. For novices, the point, I believe, is to establish a baseline and then work your way up to the limit. And if the novices are crashing frequently, than it is likely a poorly run track-day organization.
Anyway, I hope this doesn't deteriorate into "which is better" because frankly I think anyone that goes out of their way to responsibly test out their car / themselves in a closed-course high-performance situation is good. AutoX and Track Days both have their merits and their disadvantages, and anyone that has some exposure to both will certainly be able to decide for themself. I was merely stating that one didn't translate for the other, so I don't see why DJ shouldn't do a track day before an autox if he wants to. The only reason why I take issue with sciolist's post is because he seems to have some misconceptions and a bad attitude towards track days and those that participate in them.
Actually, COMSCC, with whom I run my track days, has classes and runs time trials. Basically the same competitive structure and process as AutoX, just on a race track.
[QUOTE=sciolist]Also, there's a huge social aspect to autoX. A lot of the instructional information is passed on as an oral tradition. You're not just paying some road racer to tolerate you for a few hours and blow a little smoke up your skirt... you're actually participating in something.[/quote]
The social aspect holds true with track days. As any of the NESIC trackhos. Also, road racing can be dangerous, so I think it's a smart idea to have instructors run with new drivers to help teach them. Having an experienced driver sitting next to me commenting on my inputs in realtime, along with a lap timer and a few 20 minute sessions, did wonders for my consistency and knowledge on-track.
[QUOTE=sciolist]A rank greenhorn can show up at an autoX event with an OE car, and put it right at - or over the limit, repeatedly. You'd better *hope* that doesn't happen at an HPDE.[/quote]
True, but if you go to a track day, you'll notice it's not the novices that are crashing. It's actually the experienced people who are racing for points, riding the limit, understand the consequences, and typically have the approprate safety systems built into their vehicles. For novices, the point, I believe, is to establish a baseline and then work your way up to the limit. And if the novices are crashing frequently, than it is likely a poorly run track-day organization.
Anyway, I hope this doesn't deteriorate into "which is better" because frankly I think anyone that goes out of their way to responsibly test out their car / themselves in a closed-course high-performance situation is good. AutoX and Track Days both have their merits and their disadvantages, and anyone that has some exposure to both will certainly be able to decide for themself. I was merely stating that one didn't translate for the other, so I don't see why DJ shouldn't do a track day before an autox if he wants to. The only reason why I take issue with sciolist's post is because he seems to have some misconceptions and a bad attitude towards track days and those that participate in them.
| CirrusWRX | 04-07-2006 04:38 PM |
Also FWIW most "track day" HPDE groups require manditory classroom sessions (included) which is typically much more than blowing smoke up ones underbits.
| Kostamojen | 04-07-2006 10:25 PM |
I have to add that it is more difficult for your average person to pay $200 a pop rather than $25 a pop, even if the $200 gets you more track time... Plus, with a track day you need a pre-inspection, tires that are in shape, brakes that are in very good shape, and a lot of time during a day to go (not including the fact that autox's are closer to most people than actual tracks)
I think both are great, and everyone should try both AT LEAST once, but one is easier for your average person to attend than the other.
I think both are great, and everyone should try both AT LEAST once, but one is easier for your average person to attend than the other.
| doghauler | 04-08-2006 03:50 AM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]AutoX is a competitive sporting event. Lapping days are advanced driver ed. Two completely different things. Comparing them on the basis of relative cost or "seat time" is nonsense. One goes to autoX to try to win and advance. There isn't even a competitive component to an HPDE. This is like comparing entering a fight to spending all day at the gym. You training for a race, or racing for a train?[/QUOTE]
I'll take a track day at Barbers, Road Atlanta, Lime Rock or Watkins Glen over a kmart parking lot any time.
I'll take a track day at Barbers, Road Atlanta, Lime Rock or Watkins Glen over a kmart parking lot any time.
| solo-x | 04-08-2006 01:24 PM |
i'd rather compete against someone in a parking lot then fart around all day on a highway that just happens to loop back on itself and has no cops. :D
nate
nate
| solo-x | 04-08-2006 01:29 PM |
and i'd rather race indoor go-karts wheel to wheel against other people then burn up gas waiting for some schmuck in his <insert high performance car being horribly underdriven> to give me a point-bye.
nate - has done all three and wouldn't say any one is better then the other, just that each discipline rewards different personalities differently
nate - has done all three and wouldn't say any one is better then the other, just that each discipline rewards different personalities differently
| 555ideways | 04-10-2006 05:18 PM |
haha. you're complaining about waiting for a point-by. Let's talk about waiting all day for a few 60 second runs at less than half the speed of a track day/time trial. Not only do you have to wait for the runs - you have to shag cones while waiting.
It's dumb to say one is better than the other - but i find it wierd that someone actaully prefers autox. In my head there is no comparison. Almost 99% of people who have done both agree which is more fun. But everyone can have an opinion...
-Paddy
It's dumb to say one is better than the other - but i find it wierd that someone actaully prefers autox. In my head there is no comparison. Almost 99% of people who have done both agree which is more fun. But everyone can have an opinion...
-Paddy
| Crash477 | 04-10-2006 10:17 PM |
I just did my first track weekend at CMP, adn I will agree, track is much better than autox!! but autox is cheaper at once, but you get more value from a track.
| CirrusWRX | 04-11-2006 10:03 AM |
IBIfAutoXWereAnyEasierThey'dCallItRoadRacingTShirts
They're all fun ways to drive your car- so are TSD's and I can't believe the RallyX or stage rally people haven't chimed in yet... and then the NASCAR vs. All other forms of motorsports... and ahhhahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111
They're all fun ways to drive your car- so are TSD's and I can't believe the RallyX or stage rally people haven't chimed in yet... and then the NASCAR vs. All other forms of motorsports... and ahhhahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111
| mav1c | 04-11-2006 10:15 AM |
I tracked before I autocrossed and I'm still here. :)
Definitely go for it. You'll have a blast, I know I did my first time.
Definitely go for it. You'll have a blast, I know I did my first time.
| KC | 04-11-2006 10:22 AM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]I'd love auto-x if I could get 20+ runs and actually have the chance to start shaving 10ths. In my region, it's usually 3 runs. Not a very good time investment, and so little seat time, it's even a dubious monetary investment. Considering $150-200 will get me usually about 2 hours of track time, $30ish for 3 minutes or less doesn't scale.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Most of the faster racers out there in SCCA racing started with autox.
Benefits to 'only' having three runs to get it right... you have to look ahead quite a bit and anticipate the course. You have to adapt really quickly to the course.
This translates well to the road course for someone that goes to different tracks quite bit for competition (or even HPDEs.... note: not the same track over and over, that's just strict and simple memorization... just like the GranTursimo video game). It's been imprinted in their brains to learn the course quickly, and keep your head up looking ahead for turns, wrecks, opportunities, etc.
Using GT as another example as a road course... how fast were you just starting out on a new track? I bet you sucked. We all did. Auto-x, you only those three runs to be the fastest. Next event, the course changes. Its a constant challenge to learn the course and drive it the fastest.
Road courses, done enough over the years, don't change (keeping in mind different possible configurations for some tracks... ie: NHIS Chicane/Oval, or Oval/Oval, or Chicane/Chicane). Road courses it's the same thing time and time again.
But as someone said, it's comparing weight training to boxing. Two totally different animals.
My suggestion? Do what you like best, can afford, and have fun at whatever you do. There's no doubt that all events that have been talked about are all fun. :)
--kC
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Most of the faster racers out there in SCCA racing started with autox.
Benefits to 'only' having three runs to get it right... you have to look ahead quite a bit and anticipate the course. You have to adapt really quickly to the course.
This translates well to the road course for someone that goes to different tracks quite bit for competition (or even HPDEs.... note: not the same track over and over, that's just strict and simple memorization... just like the GranTursimo video game). It's been imprinted in their brains to learn the course quickly, and keep your head up looking ahead for turns, wrecks, opportunities, etc.
Using GT as another example as a road course... how fast were you just starting out on a new track? I bet you sucked. We all did. Auto-x, you only those three runs to be the fastest. Next event, the course changes. Its a constant challenge to learn the course and drive it the fastest.
Road courses, done enough over the years, don't change (keeping in mind different possible configurations for some tracks... ie: NHIS Chicane/Oval, or Oval/Oval, or Chicane/Chicane). Road courses it's the same thing time and time again.
But as someone said, it's comparing weight training to boxing. Two totally different animals.
My suggestion? Do what you like best, can afford, and have fun at whatever you do. There's no doubt that all events that have been talked about are all fun. :)
--kC
| digitalseance | 04-11-2006 03:47 PM |
I heard a SPEED commentator mention during the World Challenge race in St. Pete:
"A good auto crosser is always a good race car driver, but a good race car driver is not always a good auto crosser."
I think that's a fairly good statement. I've only been on a track once but I was already familiar with the layout from going and watching events for years there, and I was pretty quick for it being my first (and only) time on a road course. I lay down pretty consistent times on the auto-x course and tend to be in the top two consistently.
Have fun and do what your instincts tell you.
;)
"A good auto crosser is always a good race car driver, but a good race car driver is not always a good auto crosser."
I think that's a fairly good statement. I've only been on a track once but I was already familiar with the layout from going and watching events for years there, and I was pretty quick for it being my first (and only) time on a road course. I lay down pretty consistent times on the auto-x course and tend to be in the top two consistently.
Have fun and do what your instincts tell you.
;)
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