| chimchimm5 | 03-19-2007 01:44 PM |
Track day: what fades first? Stock pads or stock fluid?
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Out of curiosity, given a completely stock brake setup, which would go first: faded pads or boiled fluid?
| Grant | 03-19-2007 01:53 PM |
The fluid went first on my RS, but it depends on its age...
| jeffroh22vtec | 03-19-2007 01:56 PM |
i think the boiled fluid would lead to the stock rubber brake lines to fail also. it also depends how new/worn the brake pads are.
| remowgn | 03-19-2007 02:43 PM |
[QUOTE=jeffroh22vtec;17406642]i think the boiled fluid would lead to the stock rubber brake lines to fail also. it also depends how new/worn the brake pads are.[/QUOTE]
Highly doubtful. I've never heard of this happening, ever. Steel braided lines aren't made of steel, they're still made of rubber. They don't magically give you more heat resistance. The only thing they give you is better feel due to less expansion.
The stock pads will go before the fluid does, if you've changed it recently.
Highly doubtful. I've never heard of this happening, ever. Steel braided lines aren't made of steel, they're still made of rubber. They don't magically give you more heat resistance. The only thing they give you is better feel due to less expansion.
The stock pads will go before the fluid does, if you've changed it recently.
| Chiketkd | 03-19-2007 02:50 PM |
[QUOTE=remowgn;17407361]The stock pads will go before the fluid does, if you've changed it recently.[/QUOTE]
Agreed - at least for my '06 TR. I've never done a track day, but when my car was roughly 8 months old (so brake fluid was still relatively new), I felt some distinct brake fade when I had a co-driver at an autoX event where runs took ~60 seconds each (4 runs per driver). We were going back-to-back, and when I went out for 3rd and 4th runs (6th and 8th for the car), the brake pedal definitely felt softer - my co-driver also commented about this as well.
Agreed - at least for my '06 TR. I've never done a track day, but when my car was roughly 8 months old (so brake fluid was still relatively new), I felt some distinct brake fade when I had a co-driver at an autoX event where runs took ~60 seconds each (4 runs per driver). We were going back-to-back, and when I went out for 3rd and 4th runs (6th and 8th for the car), the brake pedal definitely felt softer - my co-driver also commented about this as well.
| PaulRex | 03-19-2007 02:54 PM |
how do you keep the brake fluid from getting too hot? Changing the rotors and pads wouldnt do this I assume? And I dont see how SS lines would help either?
| Chiketkd | 03-19-2007 03:02 PM |
[QUOTE=PaulRex;17407526]how do you keep the brake fluid from getting too hot?[/QUOTE]
Add cooling ducts to the brake system and use higher temp brake fluid. :)
Add cooling ducts to the brake system and use higher temp brake fluid. :)
| Grant | 03-19-2007 07:18 PM |
Removing the dust shields can help too, though you might want to add some reflective heat wrap around the ball joint and tie rod boots, to keep heat off of them. But yeah, good fluid is a must.
Chiketkd, a soft brake pedal indicates fluid fade. When the pads fade the pedal will stay firm, but will just take more pedal pressure to slow the car down. When I've experienced pad fade, the brakes also smoked significantly, and sometimes gave the rotors that "warped" feeling due to uneven deposites on them.
Chiketkd, a soft brake pedal indicates fluid fade. When the pads fade the pedal will stay firm, but will just take more pedal pressure to slow the car down. When I've experienced pad fade, the brakes also smoked significantly, and sometimes gave the rotors that "warped" feeling due to uneven deposites on them.
| REX8 | 03-19-2007 07:20 PM |
[QUOTE=PaulRex;17407526]how do you keep the brake fluid from getting too hot? Changing the rotors and pads wouldnt do this I assume? And I dont see how SS lines would help either?[/QUOTE]
Again, you really can't. It heats from pressure. You need better fluid.
Valvoline synpower if you're on a budget and will give it a fresh bleed right before the event (high dry boiling point, not so hot wet point so it needs to be new), if not ATE Blue, Motul, etc. etc.
Again, you really can't. It heats from pressure. You need better fluid.
Valvoline synpower if you're on a budget and will give it a fresh bleed right before the event (high dry boiling point, not so hot wet point so it needs to be new), if not ATE Blue, Motul, etc. etc.
| chimchimm5 | 03-19-2007 08:02 PM |
BTW, if the ambient weather forcast is < 74 deg F, is there a significant reduction in brake fade occurrences? (ie Laguna Seca, April)
| remowgn | 03-19-2007 08:29 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;17411636]BTW, if the ambient weather forcast is < 74 deg F, is there a significant reduction in brake fade occurrences? (ie Laguna Seca, April)[/QUOTE]
Not significantly. You're dealing with boiling points for fluids of over 500 degrees for good brake fluid. Unless you're really looking at extreme temperatures (like 110 degrees out) ambient temps are only going to play a very minor role.
Not significantly. You're dealing with boiling points for fluids of over 500 degrees for good brake fluid. Unless you're really looking at extreme temperatures (like 110 degrees out) ambient temps are only going to play a very minor role.
| chimchimm5 | 03-19-2007 08:52 PM |
I guess the only thing that would help is if the track was wet from rain and the spray cools the brakes, eh?
Hey... we can have i/c sprayers... how about brake sprayers? Haha
Hey... we can have i/c sprayers... how about brake sprayers? Haha
| REX8 | 03-19-2007 09:48 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;17412245]I guess the only thing that would help is if the track was wet from rain and the spray cools the brakes, eh?
Hey... we can have i/c sprayers... how about brake sprayers? Haha[/QUOTE]
IIRC you were looking at getting a set of HP+'s for the track.
Let me warn you...if you're not already a good enough driver, you'll soon be fading them.
For a car as heavy as ours, we need much more up front.
At the very lest, spring for Hawk Blues/HT-10's or Carbotech XP10's.
If not, you'll be wishing you did after your first or second event. For autox, there's no reason not to run your daily driver pads.
Hey... we can have i/c sprayers... how about brake sprayers? Haha[/QUOTE]
IIRC you were looking at getting a set of HP+'s for the track.
Let me warn you...if you're not already a good enough driver, you'll soon be fading them.
For a car as heavy as ours, we need much more up front.
At the very lest, spring for Hawk Blues/HT-10's or Carbotech XP10's.
If not, you'll be wishing you did after your first or second event. For autox, there's no reason not to run your daily driver pads.
| fliz | 03-19-2007 10:13 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;17412245]I guess the only thing that would help is if the track was wet from rain and the spray cools the brakes, eh?
Hey... we can have i/c sprayers... how about brake sprayers? Haha[/QUOTE]
water on hot steel will just give you cracked rotors.
The only thing that will save you is that you'll have less traction in the rain, so your brakes won't generate as much heat. That said, I had my Bobcats fade on a track day when it was 35 degrees and raining, and I was running cheap all season tires.
Hey... we can have i/c sprayers... how about brake sprayers? Haha[/QUOTE]
water on hot steel will just give you cracked rotors.
The only thing that will save you is that you'll have less traction in the rain, so your brakes won't generate as much heat. That said, I had my Bobcats fade on a track day when it was 35 degrees and raining, and I was running cheap all season tires.
| triguy | 03-19-2007 10:28 PM |
If you're going to spend the bucks to do a track day, invest in high-temp brake fluid and track pads - at the very least up front. You won't have much fun on the track with stock pads and fluid because of the brake fade.
You will have fun w/ track pads and fluid. Of course, then you'll want to do it again and again. Then you can justify the investment in pads and fluid.
You will have fun w/ track pads and fluid. Of course, then you'll want to do it again and again. Then you can justify the investment in pads and fluid.
| REX8 | 03-19-2007 10:32 PM |
^^^
And again, Valvoline Synpower is $7 at any autoparts store...does 500+ degrees dry.
Can't be beat if you will run it fresh.
And again, Valvoline Synpower is $7 at any autoparts store...does 500+ degrees dry.
Can't be beat if you will run it fresh.
| chimchimm5 | 04-19-2007 02:35 PM |
FWIW, after the track day, I found my fluid faded first.
| RB5 Clone | 04-19-2007 03:22 PM |
for your first few track days, brain fade usually hampers you more than brake fade does.
change your fluid--super Blue or Motul
change your pads--carbotechs or Hawks, etc
change your driving--work to be smooth, lift a leetle early, trail brake
end of lecture. ;)
change your fluid--super Blue or Motul
change your pads--carbotechs or Hawks, etc
change your driving--work to be smooth, lift a leetle early, trail brake
end of lecture. ;)
| chimchimm5 | 04-19-2007 04:54 PM |
Does Motul make brain fluid? ;)
| Easy Rider | 04-19-2007 05:57 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;17782637]Does Motul make brain fluid? ;)[/QUOTE]
Brain Fluid - no.
Brake fluid - yes.
RBF600
[url]http://www.motul-lubricants.ca/Products/Automotive-BrakeFluids.php[/url]
Brain Fluid - no.
Brake fluid - yes.
RBF600
[url]http://www.motul-lubricants.ca/Products/Automotive-BrakeFluids.php[/url]
| jmolaver | 04-19-2007 06:37 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone;17781282]for your first few track days, brain fade usually hampers you more than brake fade does.
change your fluid--super Blue or Motul
change your pads--carbotechs or Hawks, etc
change your driving--work to be smooth, lift a leetle early, trail brake
end of lecture. ;)[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything except the trail braking. I would not recommend a novice track driver do anything but brake in a straight line, there's just too much going on for a rookie for that to be the to-do list.
change your fluid--super Blue or Motul
change your pads--carbotechs or Hawks, etc
change your driving--work to be smooth, lift a leetle early, trail brake
end of lecture. ;)[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything except the trail braking. I would not recommend a novice track driver do anything but brake in a straight line, there's just too much going on for a rookie for that to be the to-do list.
| IT Swift | 04-19-2007 06:45 PM |
[quote=REX8;17411099]Again, you really can't. It heats from pressure. You need better fluid.[/quote]
Liquid doesn't heat from "pressure". It heats from conduction; from the caliper and caliper pistons. (and maybe a little radiation, too).
Liquid doesn't heat from "pressure". It heats from conduction; from the caliper and caliper pistons. (and maybe a little radiation, too).
| Modifying | 04-19-2007 07:14 PM |
[QUOTE=jmolaver;17783921]I agree with everything except the trail braking. I would not recommend a novice track driver do anything but brake in a straight line, there's just too much going on for a rookie for that to be the to-do list.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Straight line braking was the way for my 1st season. A rookie doesn't want to trail brake and then spin off which could potentially discourage the driver to further push the car.
Agreed. Straight line braking was the way for my 1st season. A rookie doesn't want to trail brake and then spin off which could potentially discourage the driver to further push the car.
| REX8 | 04-19-2007 07:40 PM |
[QUOTE=IT Swift;17784010]Liquid doesn't heat from "pressure". It heats from conduction; from the caliper and caliper pistons. (and maybe a little radiation, too).[/QUOTE]
Yes, my mistake. Forbes T. Brown is rolling over right now...:o
Yes, my mistake. Forbes T. Brown is rolling over right now...:o
| Boxologist | 04-19-2007 07:54 PM |
its a hydraulic system, there are immense loads placed on that fluid.
| RB5 Clone | 04-19-2007 09:30 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;17782637]Does Motul make brain fluid? ;)[/QUOTE]
yes, but it is not marketed under Motul brand
most Yanks know this magic juice as Cointreau
caution: Apply only post track time.;) Premature application leads to deteriorating performance.
back on topic"
sorry to confuzle noobs with trail braking, I learnt it on gravel and it just feels so good when you ctually have grip
yes, but it is not marketed under Motul brand
most Yanks know this magic juice as Cointreau
caution: Apply only post track time.;) Premature application leads to deteriorating performance.
back on topic"
sorry to confuzle noobs with trail braking, I learnt it on gravel and it just feels so good when you ctually have grip
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