| Kha0S | 08-24-2005 11:40 AM |
What head/neck restraint do you use?
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How many of you have tried/regularly use a head and neck restraint system in your respective motorsport?
Between horseshoe collars and standard neck rolls, to generic webbing-type systems, to Hutchens, Isaac, HANS... road racing, rallying, hillclimbing.
What do you use? Why did you choose it?
Include, if possible, your chosen motorsport(s), which device(s) you've tried, which one(s) you've stayed with, why, or, why you've chosen not to use one at all.
/Andrew
Between horseshoe collars and standard neck rolls, to generic webbing-type systems, to Hutchens, Isaac, HANS... road racing, rallying, hillclimbing.
What do you use? Why did you choose it?
Include, if possible, your chosen motorsport(s), which device(s) you've tried, which one(s) you've stayed with, why, or, why you've chosen not to use one at all.
/Andrew
| rallynutdon | 08-24-2005 11:57 AM |
As an interesting observation. At the start of stage 3 (which I worked) at Maine, I tried to be very observant of hans or other type devices of the top running cars. Of the top 10 or so at that point, I saw no visible signs of any restraint systems!
| Kha0S | 08-24-2005 12:05 PM |
Don --
As a competitor at Maine, I saw few, if any, teams running any kind of restraint. I know that John Cassidy and David Getchell of Last Ditch Racing were using HANS devices and were very happy with them after their off on SS6.
The Isaac has held my interest for a while now, primarily because it seems to offer some protection in lateral impacts that HANS cannot provide. I know that in the WRC, the FIA has required a combination of HANS (for longitudinal impact) and helmet bolsters on the seats (to alleviate lateral impacts).
Isaac still hasn't been tested against SFI 38.1, so it's not explicitly approved in sports like NASCAR that require SFI 38.1-compliant restraints, but testing in the lab shows substantially improved protection over existing 38.1-compliant restraints in all impact modalities.
As a competitor at Maine, I saw few, if any, teams running any kind of restraint. I know that John Cassidy and David Getchell of Last Ditch Racing were using HANS devices and were very happy with them after their off on SS6.
The Isaac has held my interest for a while now, primarily because it seems to offer some protection in lateral impacts that HANS cannot provide. I know that in the WRC, the FIA has required a combination of HANS (for longitudinal impact) and helmet bolsters on the seats (to alleviate lateral impacts).
Isaac still hasn't been tested against SFI 38.1, so it's not explicitly approved in sports like NASCAR that require SFI 38.1-compliant restraints, but testing in the lab shows substantially improved protection over existing 38.1-compliant restraints in all impact modalities.
| B Esquire | 08-24-2005 12:32 PM |
I race USTCC and I use the HANS. I have tried the Isaac (the one with the dampeners) and really did not like it. You were attached to the car and it gave you one more thing to release when exiting in an emergency. I have seen a friend wear the Hutchens and was not impressed, and as far as the collars go, that is not much help in a seriuos crash. Between the HANS and the head restraint seat I have, I feel very comfortable and safe.
| trhoppe | 08-24-2005 01:07 PM |
I was told, although I haven't found it yet, that there was an SCCA fastrack that mandated one attachment point, which would make the ISAAC illegal.
-Tom
-Tom
| bjorn240 | 08-24-2005 01:08 PM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon]As an interesting observation. At the start of stage 3 (which I worked) at Maine, I tried to be very observant of hans or other type devices of the top running cars. Of the top 10 or so at that point, I saw no visible signs of any restraint systems![/QUOTE]
Of the top ten cars on SS3 at Maine 2005, car 43, car 199, car 774, and car 912 all had occupants who wear HANS devices. That said, they're not that easy to see, since they're under the belts and behind the helmet.
And in accordance with the wishes of the OP - I race rally cars, and I wear a HANS 20MP. I use a Sparco WTT-JH helmet and a Recaro SPG Pro-Racer HANS seat.
- Christian
Of the top ten cars on SS3 at Maine 2005, car 43, car 199, car 774, and car 912 all had occupants who wear HANS devices. That said, they're not that easy to see, since they're under the belts and behind the helmet.
And in accordance with the wishes of the OP - I race rally cars, and I wear a HANS 20MP. I use a Sparco WTT-JH helmet and a Recaro SPG Pro-Racer HANS seat.
- Christian
| rallynutdon | 08-24-2005 02:02 PM |
#1. I'm not dissing restraint systems, just making an observation. For most of those top teams, the cost (even if a better one comes out next year) should not be an issue like it is for us hobbiests. I don't think the whole thing has settled down enough yet to pick a best system for rallying for the little guy who doesn't have that kind of money readily available. Just MHO.
#2. Car 912 was not in the top 10 at that point :devil: I'm not sure (without checking my records at home) if all the others you listed were or not. Doesn't matter. I actually observed well past the top 10.
#2. Car 912 was not in the top 10 at that point :devil: I'm not sure (without checking my records at home) if all the others you listed were or not. Doesn't matter. I actually observed well past the top 10.
| Wazoo Racing | 08-24-2005 03:41 PM |
Head and neck restraint systems
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�
Performance Rallying
2002 Subaru WRX - Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
There are a number of teams that now run HANS devices. Pat and Nathalie Richard both got them at STPR, the Last Ditch Boys (John Cassidy and Dave Getchel) have been using them for most of this year. I have been using one for the last year and a half and now I won't get in my car for a hot stage without one. Marc Goldfarb, my co-driver, got his at STPR also.
You are correct that the HANS device doesn't work for side or lateral impacts and that you need seats with high bolsters or headrestraints. That certainly adds to the overall cost.
I don't like the Isaac system because it's another attachment point to the car. In an emergency (if the car is on its side or roof- don't ask me how I know this) you need to get out of the car quickly before it starts to burn. Its easy to hit the release on the harnesses and get out - adding 2 more attachment points to your body slows that process down significantly.
Now I havent tried the Isaac system - havent even seen one yet in person. But once you get used to the HANS collar you never really notice its there. Yes at times it limits your side view if you are turning onto another road for a transit but you work threw those.
Take a look at this picture. They only way that you can tell I have my HANS on is because the orange lanyard for the quick release is showing. (Yes- my chin strap isnt buckled either but Pete Kuncis wanted to take the picture).
[url]http://gallery.onalimbracing.com/album02/IMG_8384[/url]
I have seen one person wear the Hutchens harness in rallying but I don't know what he thinks of it.
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
2002 Subaru WRX - Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
There are a number of teams that now run HANS devices. Pat and Nathalie Richard both got them at STPR, the Last Ditch Boys (John Cassidy and Dave Getchel) have been using them for most of this year. I have been using one for the last year and a half and now I won't get in my car for a hot stage without one. Marc Goldfarb, my co-driver, got his at STPR also.
You are correct that the HANS device doesn't work for side or lateral impacts and that you need seats with high bolsters or headrestraints. That certainly adds to the overall cost.
I don't like the Isaac system because it's another attachment point to the car. In an emergency (if the car is on its side or roof- don't ask me how I know this) you need to get out of the car quickly before it starts to burn. Its easy to hit the release on the harnesses and get out - adding 2 more attachment points to your body slows that process down significantly.
Now I havent tried the Isaac system - havent even seen one yet in person. But once you get used to the HANS collar you never really notice its there. Yes at times it limits your side view if you are turning onto another road for a transit but you work threw those.
Take a look at this picture. They only way that you can tell I have my HANS on is because the orange lanyard for the quick release is showing. (Yes- my chin strap isnt buckled either but Pete Kuncis wanted to take the picture).
[url]http://gallery.onalimbracing.com/album02/IMG_8384[/url]
I have seen one person wear the Hutchens harness in rallying but I don't know what he thinks of it.
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
| bjorn240 | 08-24-2005 05:02 PM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon]#1. I'm not dissing restraint systems, just making an observation. [/QUOTE]
I didn't think you were saying one thing or another about the efficacy of restraint systems. I'm just saying, I don't think your observation was correct. I mean, I was 6th on the road. I wore a HANS. You said that no one in the top ten was wearing a HANS. That's demonstrably false.
Additionally, I know that Pat & Nath, Alex, John & Dave, Peter Monin, and Tim & Marc all have them. Given that, the likelihood is that you didn't notice the HANS systems being worn, not that they're not being worn in the top ten cars.
From that analysis, I'd say somewhere around 25% of the top National series competitors are wearing them. Whether that means clubman competitors should buy HANS over some competing device, I have no idea. But they're not as rare as you make out.
- Christian
I didn't think you were saying one thing or another about the efficacy of restraint systems. I'm just saying, I don't think your observation was correct. I mean, I was 6th on the road. I wore a HANS. You said that no one in the top ten was wearing a HANS. That's demonstrably false.
Additionally, I know that Pat & Nath, Alex, John & Dave, Peter Monin, and Tim & Marc all have them. Given that, the likelihood is that you didn't notice the HANS systems being worn, not that they're not being worn in the top ten cars.
From that analysis, I'd say somewhere around 25% of the top National series competitors are wearing them. Whether that means clubman competitors should buy HANS over some competing device, I have no idea. But they're not as rare as you make out.
- Christian
| kster | 08-24-2005 05:10 PM |
I use a HANS device for track days. I went with this device because of the data provided in the SAE reports.
I haven't tried any of the other head/neck restraint systems.
I haven't tried any of the other head/neck restraint systems.
| RRR-K2 | 08-24-2005 08:52 PM |
Hans
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I�ve used the HANS for a year and a half now to navigate and drive Rallies and drive SOLO I�s (i.e. Hillclimbs), and after a minute you don�t even realize you�re wearing it. The only real issue I have with restricted visibility is if I forget to disconnect it then try to look �over my shoulder� to pull out into an intersection or merge into line (pulling out of a pit stall).
The combination of the HANS and a full-face helmet means that when I�m navigating I can�t quite look down on my lap though. So I had to get used to holding the route-book/stage-notes up in the air more and lock my elbows into my side to stabilize them (as opposed to resting my forearms on my legs).
I did a little bit of looking into other systems, and one thing that turned me off to them was the way they strapped around you, much like a rock climbing harness. Anyone who has worn a (climbing) harness can tell you that they can be fairly uncomfortable. Also, those systems appear (at least to me) to rely too much on your helmet being tethered directly to your body, meaning that in the event that you would need to make use of those straps, although your neck with thank you, the rest of your body (under-arms, seat area, etc.) will pay the consequences.
I�ve thought about side nets and head-rest extensions, but I haven�t done a lot of �research� yet. At this point I would tend to prefer seat extensions over nets because I could see the nets having more of a chance of being in the way of other things, though I�m not so sure how easy it is to add extensions to existing seats.
That�s my $.02
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed] www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
The combination of the HANS and a full-face helmet means that when I�m navigating I can�t quite look down on my lap though. So I had to get used to holding the route-book/stage-notes up in the air more and lock my elbows into my side to stabilize them (as opposed to resting my forearms on my legs).
I did a little bit of looking into other systems, and one thing that turned me off to them was the way they strapped around you, much like a rock climbing harness. Anyone who has worn a (climbing) harness can tell you that they can be fairly uncomfortable. Also, those systems appear (at least to me) to rely too much on your helmet being tethered directly to your body, meaning that in the event that you would need to make use of those straps, although your neck with thank you, the rest of your body (under-arms, seat area, etc.) will pay the consequences.
I�ve thought about side nets and head-rest extensions, but I haven�t done a lot of �research� yet. At this point I would tend to prefer seat extensions over nets because I could see the nets having more of a chance of being in the way of other things, though I�m not so sure how easy it is to add extensions to existing seats.
That�s my $.02
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed] www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
| GarySheehan | 08-24-2005 09:22 PM |
I've worn a HANS for nearly two years. I was wearing one in my crash at Watkins Glen in the Grand-Am Cup car. I'm convinced my injuries would have been quite a bit worse without it.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| RB5 Clone | 08-25-2005 11:18 AM |
First-hand HANS feedback
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"...#2. Car 912 was not in the top 10 at that point ..."
Well, Don, maybe we weren't Top Ten when we started Maine Forest SS3, but we sure were when we finished it! :devil:
Anyway, as mentioned above, John C and I were early adopters of the HANS device among active North American rally crews. In our LDR Open Class WRX, we run the 20-degree sedan type attached to Peltor Carbon open-face helmets, with HANS-specific Schroth 6-point belts (2" shoulder straps instead of the std 3") and Sparco Circuit head-restraint seat. We have had a number of "incidents" while wearing this setup, ranging from mild offs to totaling the car by smacking a piano-size rock at 70 mph, and have found it to be most satisfactory.
I run the same setup in our other LDR team car, a NASA P2 class 2.5 RS, except that the belts are regular 5-point Sabelts. I've had no issues with the 3" shoulder belts staying centered on the HANS yoke since I crossed the belts behind the seats.
Head mobility is simply not an issue for rally use, except for certain oblique intersections on transits. This can be overcome by mindful car placement at likely trouble spots. Co-driving with the HANS has not given a moment's trouble, except for if I drop something in the cockpit I often can't see where it goes. This is not really an issue since when I'm belted in I couldn't reach down to get it anyway.
Buckling in before starting a stage requires careful and repeatable arrangement of belts, HANS yoke, HANS tethers, intercom wires, and hydration tube. Takes some getting used to at first, but after a few races it's all quite simple. We have had a few instances of being rushed at controls and having to be firm with marshals that we need time to finish assembling our safety gear. At one event, we'd been rushed by marshals at a start control and weren't fully buckled in at our assigned start time. As the 3...2...1.. countown ticked off, John just sat there on the line and said "NO we're not ready, it's not safe, we're not going!" The marshal yelled back, "So just drive slow for a couple minutes." (Yeh, right!!) We ended up getting a grace minute and starting with all safety gear in place. Since that early experience, we allow ample extra time to get ourselves ready no matter what the marshals might surprise us with.
Final word: My Mom is one of the HANS device's biggest fans.
Dave G
Crash Test Dummy
lastditchracing.net
Well, Don, maybe we weren't Top Ten when we started Maine Forest SS3, but we sure were when we finished it! :devil:
Anyway, as mentioned above, John C and I were early adopters of the HANS device among active North American rally crews. In our LDR Open Class WRX, we run the 20-degree sedan type attached to Peltor Carbon open-face helmets, with HANS-specific Schroth 6-point belts (2" shoulder straps instead of the std 3") and Sparco Circuit head-restraint seat. We have had a number of "incidents" while wearing this setup, ranging from mild offs to totaling the car by smacking a piano-size rock at 70 mph, and have found it to be most satisfactory.
I run the same setup in our other LDR team car, a NASA P2 class 2.5 RS, except that the belts are regular 5-point Sabelts. I've had no issues with the 3" shoulder belts staying centered on the HANS yoke since I crossed the belts behind the seats.
Head mobility is simply not an issue for rally use, except for certain oblique intersections on transits. This can be overcome by mindful car placement at likely trouble spots. Co-driving with the HANS has not given a moment's trouble, except for if I drop something in the cockpit I often can't see where it goes. This is not really an issue since when I'm belted in I couldn't reach down to get it anyway.
Buckling in before starting a stage requires careful and repeatable arrangement of belts, HANS yoke, HANS tethers, intercom wires, and hydration tube. Takes some getting used to at first, but after a few races it's all quite simple. We have had a few instances of being rushed at controls and having to be firm with marshals that we need time to finish assembling our safety gear. At one event, we'd been rushed by marshals at a start control and weren't fully buckled in at our assigned start time. As the 3...2...1.. countown ticked off, John just sat there on the line and said "NO we're not ready, it's not safe, we're not going!" The marshal yelled back, "So just drive slow for a couple minutes." (Yeh, right!!) We ended up getting a grace minute and starting with all safety gear in place. Since that early experience, we allow ample extra time to get ourselves ready no matter what the marshals might surprise us with.
Final word: My Mom is one of the HANS device's biggest fans.
Dave G
Crash Test Dummy
lastditchracing.net
| Kha0S | 08-25-2005 11:49 AM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone]We have had a number of "incidents" while wearing this setup, ranging from mild offs to totaling the car by smacking a piano-size rock at 70 mph, and have found it to be most satisfactory.
[/QUOTE]
For what it's worth, passing your car on SS6 is what made me start this thread. I'm in the market for something, but am holding out for the Isaac to get some certification numbers...
Knowing that I can't guarantee that I'll have a helmet retention seat in a given car, I'd rather be able to bring a self-contained restraint system that gives me some good lateral protection, and as of right now, the HANS doesn't have that. :(
Keep the comments coming!
/Andrew
[/QUOTE]
For what it's worth, passing your car on SS6 is what made me start this thread. I'm in the market for something, but am holding out for the Isaac to get some certification numbers...
Knowing that I can't guarantee that I'll have a helmet retention seat in a given car, I'd rather be able to bring a self-contained restraint system that gives me some good lateral protection, and as of right now, the HANS doesn't have that. :(
Keep the comments coming!
/Andrew
| rallynutdon | 08-25-2005 02:09 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone]"...#At one event, we'd been rushed by marshals at a start control and weren't fully buckled in at our assigned start time. As the 3...2...1.. countown ticked off, John just sat there on the line and said "NO we're not ready, it's not safe, we're not going!" The marshal yelled back, "So just drive slow for a couple minutes." (Yeh, right!!) We ended up getting a grace minute and starting with all safety gear in place. Dave G
Crash Test Dummy
lastditchracing.net[/QUOTE]
IMHO (and the rules) the marshall was correct and you should not have been given the minute. It's your responsibility to be ready on your minute. You could have sat there for 10-15 seconds or whatever it takes to finish, then gone. But your out time is your out time! No excuses accepted by this worker.
Now back to your regularily scheduled discussion.
BTW, I was basing my observation of HANS devices at Maine on what I thought I could see from my son having worn one. I stand corrected and won't assume I can tell in the future :)
Crash Test Dummy
lastditchracing.net[/QUOTE]
IMHO (and the rules) the marshall was correct and you should not have been given the minute. It's your responsibility to be ready on your minute. You could have sat there for 10-15 seconds or whatever it takes to finish, then gone. But your out time is your out time! No excuses accepted by this worker.
Now back to your regularily scheduled discussion.
BTW, I was basing my observation of HANS devices at Maine on what I thought I could see from my son having worn one. I stand corrected and won't assume I can tell in the future :)
| kwak | 08-25-2005 02:27 PM |
Regarding horse collars, from the [URL]http://hansdevice.com/[/URL] FAQ...
[QUOTE]Note testing has shown a horse collar adds weight to the helmet and the head that must be carried by the neck. This increases the chance of injury. Wear one for comfort, not safety related reasons.[/QUOTE]I think this statement is in the context of "in combination with a HANS".
[QUOTE]Note testing has shown a horse collar adds weight to the helmet and the head that must be carried by the neck. This increases the chance of injury. Wear one for comfort, not safety related reasons.[/QUOTE]I think this statement is in the context of "in combination with a HANS".
| RB5 Clone | 08-25-2005 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon]IMHO (and the rules) the marshall was correct and you should not have been given the minute. It's your responsibility to be ready on your minute.[/QUOTE]
For US events, agreed. This was a situation at a Canadian event where marshals were plugging gaps in the running order by moving crews' out time without much notice. It was partially our fault for getting caught in congestion at a crowded control area. The grace minute we were granted seemed justified by circumstances, and the TA was held up by event stewards.
...and once again, back to regular scheduled discussion:
As you discovered, it's often hard to see HANS devices from outside the cars. The HANS yoke is black carbon-fiber that blends in with black seats. There are belts and intercom cords and stuff in the way, plus tinted windows, rollcage bars, etc. Side-head-restraint seats in particular make HANS near invisible.
At stage starts, I also know that I for one pin my head back hard against the seat, tensed and waiting for the antilag-20-lbs-boost Big Freakin' Clutch Drop, and there's no way you'd see my HANS at that moment.
Dave G
Turtle Neck
lastditchracing.net
For US events, agreed. This was a situation at a Canadian event where marshals were plugging gaps in the running order by moving crews' out time without much notice. It was partially our fault for getting caught in congestion at a crowded control area. The grace minute we were granted seemed justified by circumstances, and the TA was held up by event stewards.
...and once again, back to regular scheduled discussion:
As you discovered, it's often hard to see HANS devices from outside the cars. The HANS yoke is black carbon-fiber that blends in with black seats. There are belts and intercom cords and stuff in the way, plus tinted windows, rollcage bars, etc. Side-head-restraint seats in particular make HANS near invisible.
At stage starts, I also know that I for one pin my head back hard against the seat, tensed and waiting for the antilag-20-lbs-boost Big Freakin' Clutch Drop, and there's no way you'd see my HANS at that moment.
Dave G
Turtle Neck
lastditchracing.net
| RRR-K2 | 08-25-2005 04:52 PM |
I forgot to mention that I use my 20 degree HANS with a Bell SR-Pro helmet (full-face, but not a full opening/closing visor) and standards (3"?) 5-point belts that are crossed behind the seat.
I've never had an issue with them slipping off, just so long as I have them placed right (over the HANS) to begin with, and I pull the belts tight (most people don't pull their belts tight enough anyway, HANS or not). Like Dave said though, it can be a chore with the intercom cord, my Camelback tube, and a lanyard with a few pens attached, but I've never been late for a stage start ;) of course, I leave the HANS on under my belts all the time.
I don't use the quick releases for the tethers. I have the "new" style attachment bolts/clips, and after a few tries I was able to slide them on and off in a flash.
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
I've never had an issue with them slipping off, just so long as I have them placed right (over the HANS) to begin with, and I pull the belts tight (most people don't pull their belts tight enough anyway, HANS or not). Like Dave said though, it can be a chore with the intercom cord, my Camelback tube, and a lanyard with a few pens attached, but I've never been late for a stage start ;) of course, I leave the HANS on under my belts all the time.
I don't use the quick releases for the tethers. I have the "new" style attachment bolts/clips, and after a few tries I was able to slide them on and off in a flash.
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
| Wazoo Racing | 08-25-2005 04:58 PM |
Take a safety minute
�
�
Thread hijack -
Marc and I ran into the same problem at a Canadien event that Dave and John did. The stage captain was trying tighten up the gaps between the cars since three cars ahead of us went out. We had a communication issue with French speaking stage worker giving out times and instead of doing what John and Dave did we pushed to get out on our assigned minute. My harness wasnt tight and I was not "mentally" prepared to go (I hate being rushed in these situations). I was given 4-3-2-1 and left we had low power launch with no boost and most importantly the pod lights were not on. I drove the first 5 turns with the regular street lights (that are partially covered by the pods anyways) and it sucked. Needless to say Marc's timing was off - we weren't in-sync and we went wide on a turn. That stage sucked and we lost more than 45 seconds on that stage!
Back on topic-
HANS devices were originally designed for open cockpit racing in the F1 or IRL type cars. They obviously don't need head restraints. It certainly is a system and you need a seat with head restraints.
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
Marc and I ran into the same problem at a Canadien event that Dave and John did. The stage captain was trying tighten up the gaps between the cars since three cars ahead of us went out. We had a communication issue with French speaking stage worker giving out times and instead of doing what John and Dave did we pushed to get out on our assigned minute. My harness wasnt tight and I was not "mentally" prepared to go (I hate being rushed in these situations). I was given 4-3-2-1 and left we had low power launch with no boost and most importantly the pod lights were not on. I drove the first 5 turns with the regular street lights (that are partially covered by the pods anyways) and it sucked. Needless to say Marc's timing was off - we weren't in-sync and we went wide on a turn. That stage sucked and we lost more than 45 seconds on that stage!
Back on topic-
HANS devices were originally designed for open cockpit racing in the F1 or IRL type cars. They obviously don't need head restraints. It certainly is a system and you need a seat with head restraints.
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
| RB5 Clone | 08-25-2005 05:57 PM |
[QUOTE=Wazoo Racing]Thread hijack -
... most importantly the pod lights were not on. I drove the first 5 turns with the regular street lights (that are partially covered by the pods anyways) and it sucked. [/QUOTE]
thread hijack #2-- Note to Tim on steering wheel: "Pod lites ON @ nite" :eek: :devil:
It's amazing how control workers who try to rush rally crews can have tremendous effect on you if you let them. When in doubt, go back to the dang rule book to decide what's right. If that fails, yell like hell! If that fails, simply refuse to start until things calm down.
Dave G
... most importantly the pod lights were not on. I drove the first 5 turns with the regular street lights (that are partially covered by the pods anyways) and it sucked. [/QUOTE]
thread hijack #2-- Note to Tim on steering wheel: "Pod lites ON @ nite" :eek: :devil:
It's amazing how control workers who try to rush rally crews can have tremendous effect on you if you let them. When in doubt, go back to the dang rule book to decide what's right. If that fails, yell like hell! If that fails, simply refuse to start until things calm down.
Dave G
| Wazoo Racing | 08-25-2005 08:48 PM |
Another thread jack
�
�
Dave-
I will put that on my steering wheel if you put on John's
"[SIZE=3]No cut means NO CUT![/SIZE]"
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
I will put that on my steering wheel if you put on John's
"[SIZE=3]No cut means NO CUT![/SIZE]"
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
| Kha0S | 08-25-2005 09:31 PM |
[QUOTE=Wazoo Racing]
"[SIZE=3]No cut means NO CUT![/SIZE]"
[/QUOTE]
"Don't Cut" sounds like a good candidate for the name of John's new car. :D
[size=1]*donning flame suit and returning the thread to topic*[/size]
/Andrew
"[SIZE=3]No cut means NO CUT![/SIZE]"
[/QUOTE]
"Don't Cut" sounds like a good candidate for the name of John's new car. :D
[size=1]*donning flame suit and returning the thread to topic*[/size]
/Andrew
| kwak | 08-25-2005 11:49 PM |
[QUOTE=Wazoo Racing]HANS devices were originally designed for open cockpit racing in the F1 or IRL type cars. They obviously don't need head restraints. It certainly is a system and you need a seat with head restraints.[/QUOTE]It was originally developed by Dr Robert Hubbard and tested by his brother-in-law Jim Downing who drove IMSA prototypes. This occured over a span of many years as the research and testing took place. I don't seem to remember lateral head supports in those cars.
Modern Champ Car, IRL, F1 cars now have lateral head supports as part of the cockpit structure. As you said, a sedan with a seat which has lateral head restraints is a VERY good idea.
Modern Champ Car, IRL, F1 cars now have lateral head supports as part of the cockpit structure. As you said, a sedan with a seat which has lateral head restraints is a VERY good idea.
| rallynutdon | 08-26-2005 01:41 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone]At stage starts, I also know that I for one pin my head back hard against the seat, tensed and waiting for the antilag-20-lbs-boost Big Freakin' Clutch Drop, and there's no way you'd see my HANS at that moment.
Dave G
Turtle Neck
lastditchracing.net[/QUOTE]
I wasn't at actual stage start, I was in the area just before the in clock.
Dave G
Turtle Neck
lastditchracing.net[/QUOTE]
I wasn't at actual stage start, I was in the area just before the in clock.
| turboICE | 08-26-2005 01:55 PM |
None yet. But I am getting the ISAAC. For Hans to be as effective as their testing shows requires that the straps be too tight for the type of head motion a production bodied car requires. 95% of the people [i]I have seen[/i] using Hans in a production vehicles have the straps looser than the specs that produced the sled results, which means they are not going to get the same G reducing effect. The ones that I asked why said it was too restrictive to use in accordance with the instructions. The same is not true of an open car, they can tighten them down as they don't need or want any of the head movement anyway and pretty consistently the ones I have seen have almost no slack in their straps.
Also getting in and out of a production based car is hard enough without having a slab behind my head.
Also getting in and out of a production based car is hard enough without having a slab behind my head.
| RRR-K2 | 08-26-2005 09:56 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]The ones that I asked why said it was too restrictive to use in accordance with the instructions.[/QUOTE]
:huh:
Did those people tell you they had changed (made longer) the lengths of the tethers?
I have to admit that when I got mine I initially thought the tethers looked too long, until I read the instructions that said "[B]All HANS devices come from the factory with the tethers adjusted to the proper length[/B]." Later on in the instructions it even says "[B][I]Please be aware that very short tethers do not increase safety[/I][/B]." (NOTE: that last quote was originally in italics in the their instructions)
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
:huh:
Did those people tell you they had changed (made longer) the lengths of the tethers?
I have to admit that when I got mine I initially thought the tethers looked too long, until I read the instructions that said "[B]All HANS devices come from the factory with the tethers adjusted to the proper length[/B]." Later on in the instructions it even says "[B][I]Please be aware that very short tethers do not increase safety[/I][/B]." (NOTE: that last quote was originally in italics in the their instructions)
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
| turboICE | 08-26-2005 11:00 PM |
Good additional information - but yes they lengthened them. It wasn't that there was no slack when originally used there is an amount of slack which shortening them do not provide additional force reduction - but they wanted more range of motion than given.
| Rovah | 08-26-2005 11:15 PM |
Please see the video on our website of our impact. It was a glancing impact. You'll see Dave's head bounce between his seat head restraints, but look at mine as the car moves to the left with the intial impact and my head stays where it was!.
You'll see my tethers tigthen 2-3 times as we enter the ditch. There were 3-4 beach ball size boulders that we hit that caused the successive decelerations.
The small video clip is 40% speed intially, followed by 100% speed.
Cheers! John
You'll see my tethers tigthen 2-3 times as we enter the ditch. There were 3-4 beach ball size boulders that we hit that caused the successive decelerations.
The small video clip is 40% speed intially, followed by 100% speed.
Cheers! John
| Wazoo Racing | 08-26-2005 11:19 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]For Hans to be as effective as their testing shows requires that the straps be too tight for the type of head motion a production bodied car requires. 95% of the people [i]I have seen[/i] using Hans in a production vehicles have the straps looser than the specs that produced the sled results, which means they are not going to get the same G reducing effect. [/QUOTE]
You really need to do some more research here. The tethers are supposed to be loose enough so that the person wearing the device can touch his chin to his chest. In a massive decel event - the person's head shifts forward - not down - their body shift forward against the straps (you can't ever get the stretch out of the harness) and the HANS device stays somewhat in place. The device prevents the head from going to far forward.
I spent a good amount of time with one of the senior technicians for HANS at one of the recent events and he adjusted them appropriately. If someone has them so tight that they can't turn their head somewhat then all they are doing is making themselves uncomfortable for no reason.
I can't comment upon the Isaac since they are very new and I haven't seen them but I think you may be misunderstanding what happens in a frontal hit and what the HANS device prevents.
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
You really need to do some more research here. The tethers are supposed to be loose enough so that the person wearing the device can touch his chin to his chest. In a massive decel event - the person's head shifts forward - not down - their body shift forward against the straps (you can't ever get the stretch out of the harness) and the HANS device stays somewhat in place. The device prevents the head from going to far forward.
I spent a good amount of time with one of the senior technicians for HANS at one of the recent events and he adjusted them appropriately. If someone has them so tight that they can't turn their head somewhat then all they are doing is making themselves uncomfortable for no reason.
I can't comment upon the Isaac since they are very new and I haven't seen them but I think you may be misunderstanding what happens in a frontal hit and what the HANS device prevents.
-Tim
Wazoo Racing
[url]www.wazooracing.com[/url]
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