| makofoto | 04-06-2004 10:16 AM |
What Spring Rates are Wagon AutoX'ers using ?
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See my thread "Possible Solution to Mako's Camber problems?"
We want to add spring rates and ratios to the mix ... to see what successful Wagon campaigners are using ...
We want to add spring rates and ratios to the mix ... to see what successful Wagon campaigners are using ...
| MNbiker | 04-06-2004 10:38 AM |
8K (450#) front
10K (550#) rear
JIC FLT-A2's
-Steve
10K (550#) rear
JIC FLT-A2's
-Steve
| KC | 04-06-2004 10:42 AM |
8K Front 10K rear. Tein RA
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 10:44 AM |
Would it make a difference if one has the rear gutted, ie. no rear seat, seat back, spare, jack, light fuel ...
| KC | 04-06-2004 11:01 AM |
Rear seat doesn't weigh much, and the spare, jack are removed along with running on less than 1/4 tank of gas.
| MNbiker | 04-06-2004 11:03 AM |
Not really. I have all the above removed, except for the rear seat.
-Steve
-Steve
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 11:06 AM |
The seat back has a decent amount of weight ... I'm under 3,000 lbs ... and that was before going to a 12 lb battery ... but I understand what you are saying.
Anyone know which conversion to use going between K and pounds/inch
conversion site: [url]http://www.onlineconversion.com/[/url]
Anyone know which conversion to use going between K and pounds/inch
conversion site: [url]http://www.onlineconversion.com/[/url]
| lo-buck | 04-06-2004 11:54 AM |
kgmm x 56 = "lb
the wagon doesnt weigh that much more than the sedan. so specivic wagon rates arent necessary.
10k all around on spidey's sm monster
JIC (and plenty of dampening to go)
the wagon doesnt weigh that much more than the sedan. so specivic wagon rates arent necessary.
10k all around on spidey's sm monster
JIC (and plenty of dampening to go)
| BSLICKOH | 04-06-2004 12:02 PM |
Stock. :D On both my 02 and 04.
Although, "successful" can certainly be debated...
Although, "successful" can certainly be debated...
| KC | 04-06-2004 12:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lo-buck[/i]
[B]the wagon doesnt weigh that much more than the sedan. so specivic wagon rates arent necessary.[/B][/QUOTE]
However where it's located is a big issue when talking about controlling a car in a turn.
85lbs, up high, in the rear of the car, behind the axles.
Gives a totally different feel to the car than a sedan.
[B]the wagon doesnt weigh that much more than the sedan. so specivic wagon rates arent necessary.[/B][/QUOTE]
However where it's located is a big issue when talking about controlling a car in a turn.
85lbs, up high, in the rear of the car, behind the axles.
Gives a totally different feel to the car than a sedan.
| lo-buck | 04-06-2004 12:27 PM |
[I]However where it's located is[/I]
yea, ur right about that
yea, ur right about that
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 12:34 PM |
Why MORE spring weight in the REAR of an AutoX Wagon ... as opposed to the stock and usual after market spring pairings?
| lo-buck | 04-06-2004 12:44 PM |
all the off the shelf springs are soft and (sometimes) progressive as well as stiffer front. thus promoting understeer (albeit less than stock). they may feel nice on the street, but in an autocross situation, they just arent enough to control roll. esp in a mac strut car, roll is your enimy more so that other suspension designs because you will loose camber on compression of suspension. also, progressive springs increase spring rate as they compress. which means they sick till they compress which means body roll. roll is the last thing you want. makes transittions slower.
a linear spring is constant all the way from static to full compression.
now, as for stiffer rear rates, that helps the car rotate better. i like to stay away from big sways on awd cars because you dont want to lift the tire. once u do that, you loose corner exit acceleration grip (unless u get a clutch type diff:devil: )
hoe that didnt confuse you too much.
a linear spring is constant all the way from static to full compression.
now, as for stiffer rear rates, that helps the car rotate better. i like to stay away from big sways on awd cars because you dont want to lift the tire. once u do that, you loose corner exit acceleration grip (unless u get a clutch type diff:devil: )
hoe that didnt confuse you too much.
| MNbiker | 04-06-2004 12:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]Why MORE spring weight in the REAR of an AutoX Wagon ... as opposed to the stock and usual after market spring pairings? [/B][/QUOTE]
The issue is getting rotation on (relatively) slow autox courses. The higher rear spring rates help significantly for autox, at the expense of some high speed stability. Car setup is all about trade-off's.
BTW - It's not just the wagon. Tom's running the same spring rates on his sedan.
IMHO - most of the stock coilover setups are overly front-biased (8/6, 7/5, etc.). For general/track use, I prefer even F/R spring rates.
-Steve
[B]Why MORE spring weight in the REAR of an AutoX Wagon ... as opposed to the stock and usual after market spring pairings? [/B][/QUOTE]
The issue is getting rotation on (relatively) slow autox courses. The higher rear spring rates help significantly for autox, at the expense of some high speed stability. Car setup is all about trade-off's.
BTW - It's not just the wagon. Tom's running the same spring rates on his sedan.
IMHO - most of the stock coilover setups are overly front-biased (8/6, 7/5, etc.). For general/track use, I prefer even F/R spring rates.
-Steve
| ttoversteer | 04-06-2004 02:16 PM |
I missed that day when K was introduced to measure spring rates; I'm used to lb/square inch.
What is "K"? After some searching, I came up with: kgf/mm? Read: Kilogramfoot/milimeter? Is this correct?
and why is it used instead of #?
Thanks!
What is "K"? After some searching, I came up with: kgf/mm? Read: Kilogramfoot/milimeter? Is this correct?
and why is it used instead of #?
Thanks!
| KC | 04-06-2004 02:29 PM |
It's used for metric spring rates. It is kgf/mm.
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 02:31 PM |
Euros don't use # ... Japanese are being nice to us when they use # ;)
| ttoversteer | 04-06-2004 02:53 PM |
Got it! That makes sense now. Of course, now I need to figure out which one I like more! ;)
KC: How's it going??? When are you going to come down my way so we can go toe-toe in our wagons? :D
Oh, and to reinforce what was said above about higher rates in the rear: They definitely help improve rotation. I had 400/450# f/r in my RS, and it handled beautifully for autox. After playing a bit with the sway bars, I was able to get a very NEUTRAL handling car that worked well on all kinds of autox courses, as well as street and highway.
KC: How's it going??? When are you going to come down my way so we can go toe-toe in our wagons? :D
Oh, and to reinforce what was said above about higher rates in the rear: They definitely help improve rotation. I had 400/450# f/r in my RS, and it handled beautifully for autox. After playing a bit with the sway bars, I was able to get a very NEUTRAL handling car that worked well on all kinds of autox courses, as well as street and highway.
| KC | 04-06-2004 02:59 PM |
Come down there? I thought it was your turn to trek up here? And bring that sally ass p-car loving friend Pilot with you. :D
| ttoversteer | 04-06-2004 03:16 PM |
[quote]And bring that sally ass p-car loving friend Pilot with you. :D [/quote]
:lol:
I think I'll have to do that! :D
:lol:
I think I'll have to do that! :D
| solo-x | 04-06-2004 03:30 PM |
i can't divulge much information without kC's expressed consent, but i can offer this much. i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn. if i had known at the time what i now know about keith's setup, i would have recommended 10k front/8-10k rear.
nate
ps. don't sacrifice roll stiffness to prevent "lifting" a tire. swaybars are good!
nate
ps. don't sacrifice roll stiffness to prevent "lifting" a tire. swaybars are good!
| lo-buck | 04-06-2004 05:16 PM |
yey, another vote for 10kf/r:D
| DrBiggly | 04-07-2004 10:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x[/i]
[B] i can't divulge much information without kC's expressed consent, but i can offer this much. i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn. if i had known at the time what i now know about keith's setup, i would have recommended 10k front/8-10k rear.
nate
[/B][/QUOTE]
What about his setup makes you want to recommend 10k front / 8-10k rear? :confused:
[B] i can't divulge much information without kC's expressed consent, but i can offer this much. i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn. if i had known at the time what i now know about keith's setup, i would have recommended 10k front/8-10k rear.
nate
[/B][/QUOTE]
What about his setup makes you want to recommend 10k front / 8-10k rear? :confused:
| KC | 04-07-2004 11:06 AM |
Rephrased:
[QUOTE]after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn on 8K/6K, i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn on 8K/6K, i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup [/QUOTE]
| DrBiggly | 04-07-2004 11:15 AM |
Right, but why 10k front? The 8k/10k makes sense; not sure how the 10k/8-10k thing would work? That's where my :confused: comes in.
On a side note, I'm presuming that this car is a trailer queen with spring rates like that. ;)
On a side note, I'm presuming that this car is a trailer queen with spring rates like that. ;)
| KC | 04-07-2004 12:06 PM |
It's trailered to and from events, yes. But the rates aren't really that bad on the street. Looking at the stock soft rates, they're only 3x stiffer... and on a 3000lb car, it's not the same as if they were on a 2200 lb car.... where you would need less spring.
| lo-buck | 04-07-2004 08:29 PM |
10k f/r isnt too bad but would get tiresome every day. especially up here in pothole hell. 8k is where its at for street tires. but for race tires (and real wide ones), i think 10k up front is necessary for roll control. i saw/rode in a wrx with 8/6 and it just wasnt as good in transittions as the 10k car i was driving. and the 8/6 car was on hoosier daddy's.
what it comes down to is what you like. as long as you have a shock/strut to handle the higher rates, get a few sets of ers in a few rates and try them out. try the 6,8 & 10k all over the car and see what you like. i like a twitchy car. keeps me on my toes:p
-spenc
what it comes down to is what you like. as long as you have a shock/strut to handle the higher rates, get a few sets of ers in a few rates and try them out. try the 6,8 & 10k all over the car and see what you like. i like a twitchy car. keeps me on my toes:p
-spenc
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