| BIGSKYWRX | 05-15-2005 11:36 AM |
Whose running a wider setup (rims or tires or both) up front vs rear?
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This makes good sense (other than tire rotation problems)- I would think rim width would be easier to deal w/ vs different tire size (keeping overall diameters close).
Anybody running anything like this?
The setup I was contemplating would also be additionaly wider up front as the offest decreases as well w/ the wider (8") rim by 4mm.
Big Sky
Anybody running anything like this?
The setup I was contemplating would also be additionaly wider up front as the offest decreases as well w/ the wider (8") rim by 4mm.
Big Sky
| Draken | 05-15-2005 12:05 PM |
I ran 245/45-16 up front and 225/50-16 on the rear of my G-stock 2.5RS setup for a year. I was limited to 16x7 wheels. Improved front end grip on sweeper oriented courses, but the steering went dead on high transitions, so i usually reverted back to 225 tires up front on those courses.
Some A-Stock STis run 275/40-17 front and 245/45-17 rear.
Chris H.
Some A-Stock STis run 275/40-17 front and 245/45-17 rear.
Chris H.
| Swine | 05-15-2005 12:37 PM |
You might be better off running the same size tires just a grippier or stickier tire in the front. Run like a BFG T/A KD in the front and something less sticky in the rear...maybe even an all season.
| AUTOwrXER | 05-15-2005 05:34 PM |
Daddio is doing staggered tire and wheel sizes on his SM Evo. You can setup the car this way and be fast. What was your question about it?
| makofoto | 05-16-2005 01:31 AM |
245/40/17's all around ... 15 mm spacers in Front, 5 mm spacers in the rear.
At the Vette Event today, in Open:
1st Gary Thomason - ASP Vette
2nd Guy Ankeny - AP Camaro
3rd Yours Truly - SM Suby Groceries Getter :banana: :banana: :banana:
... on a fast course designed by Guy himself ...
At the Vette Event today, in Open:
1st Gary Thomason - ASP Vette
2nd Guy Ankeny - AP Camaro
3rd Yours Truly - SM Suby Groceries Getter :banana: :banana: :banana:
... on a fast course designed by Guy himself ...
| AUTOwrXER | 05-16-2005 02:59 PM |
You may want to monitor this thread, particularly near the end where Daddio is whipping up on Salerno in his Z06 by 2+ seconds: [url]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=135354[/url]
KC - Care to share your thoughts on Daddio's staggered tire setup?
KC - Care to share your thoughts on Daddio's staggered tire setup?
| trhoppe | 05-16-2005 03:23 PM |
Yea, what STX car/driver was right behind mark in pax ;) chang in teh civic?
-Tom
-Tom
| KC | 05-16-2005 03:30 PM |
Changs Co-Driver and Whipple were up there (both in STX). I didn't stay for the end trophies, wife had dinner cooking. I also didn't see his last set of runs where he whooped up on Pat. (I was beating Pat in morning on the semi wet course... both of us on V710s). He (Pat) was saying the car's not setup yet and has some other things to do to it.
As Daddio says, he was 'loose' at times in the morning, made a few adjustments, went back out and was just stupid fast. I would say a staggered setup works well myself after seeing it happen and him put the smack down on everyone.. with one cevat: He's Daddo. He'll be fast in ANYTHING. ;) I don't know his exact sizes, but the car just about looks perfect with the lowering, and the Ohlins, and the Hoosiers and the Oy lady!
Oh.. and this was on the S04s.... he's got S05s sitting in the Garage.
--kC
As Daddio says, he was 'loose' at times in the morning, made a few adjustments, went back out and was just stupid fast. I would say a staggered setup works well myself after seeing it happen and him put the smack down on everyone.. with one cevat: He's Daddo. He'll be fast in ANYTHING. ;) I don't know his exact sizes, but the car just about looks perfect with the lowering, and the Ohlins, and the Hoosiers and the Oy lady!
Oh.. and this was on the S04s.... he's got S05s sitting in the Garage.
--kC
| Sideshowbob | 05-16-2005 04:35 PM |
I saw the afternoon run, the one wherein he got a single cone at 61.something. It looked fast as hell, but still a tad loose, which might be intentional
| AUTOwrXER | 05-16-2005 04:37 PM |
I think a setup like his might work on an STi, depending on how our center diff takes to it. His combo is close in diameter front to rear, but it's still off a tad. The earlier Evo without the active ceter diff freaked out when Stemler tried that...
| dwx | 05-16-2005 04:43 PM |
I saw Stemler run that setup in Peru last year about this time and it didn't seem to be having any real issues. That was early in the development of the car however and he was actually running different brand tires on the front/rear, at least at that event. The rolling diameter difference of the two tires is about .1" according to the Hoosier specs. If you calculate from the size given, it's .01".
I don't think you'd have any issue running those sizes front and rear.
I don't think you'd have any issue running those sizes front and rear.
| makofoto | 05-16-2005 05:23 PM |
Tire Rack suggests tires should be within 3/16th of each other for our Suby's ...
| trhoppe | 05-16-2005 05:31 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Tire Rack suggests tires should be within 3/16th of each other for our Suby's ...[/QUOTE]
Tire Rack suggests a LOT of stuff that does not apply to autox ;) Although I would follow their recommendations for daily driving :)
-Tom
Tire Rack suggests a LOT of stuff that does not apply to autox ;) Although I would follow their recommendations for daily driving :)
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 05-16-2005 05:57 PM |
[QUOTE=dwx]I saw Stemler run that setup in Peru last year about this time and it didn't seem to be having any real issues. That was early in the development of the car however and he was actually running different brand tires on the front/rear, at least at that event. The rolling diameter difference of the two tires is about .1" according to the Hoosier specs. If you calculate from the size given, it's .01".
I don't think you'd have any issue running those sizes front and rear.[/QUOTE]
I talked to Stemler about it, and he said the car bucked back and forth wildly under power with the tire stagger. I'm not sure what sizes he was running though, and therefore I don't know the diameter difference. Stemler's car does not have the new active diff.
I don't think you'd have any issue running those sizes front and rear.[/QUOTE]
I talked to Stemler about it, and he said the car bucked back and forth wildly under power with the tire stagger. I'm not sure what sizes he was running though, and therefore I don't know the diameter difference. Stemler's car does not have the new active diff.
| TheWRX | 05-16-2005 06:19 PM |
Daddio's paddock space was next to mine in Peru last year, and he asked me if anybody had tried a staggered setup on a Subaru. At the time I thought he was just doing smalltalk, but I guess he might have been researching...
I also doubt that the official diameter recommendations mean much for auto-x. I can't imagine that all four tires are spinning at the same rate for much of a run, so the diffs will be busy anyway.
I also doubt that the official diameter recommendations mean much for auto-x. I can't imagine that all four tires are spinning at the same rate for much of a run, so the diffs will be busy anyway.
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-16-2005 08:45 PM |
Sounds like it might be effective (under certain conditions anyways). I might have to give it go. :) I'd probably go 8" up front 42 et and run my 7.5's (46 et) w/ the same tires (225/50/16). That should give me a slightly wider track and a little wider footprint up front.
I don't like the idea of not being able to rotate tires front to rear though (w/o dismounting/remounting).
I got to thinking wagons could to do this w/ swapping in sedan front arms as well and leaving the lateral links alone- would give you a inch wider track up front.
I don't like the idea of not being able to rotate tires front to rear though (w/o dismounting/remounting).
I got to thinking wagons could to do this w/ swapping in sedan front arms as well and leaving the lateral links alone- would give you a inch wider track up front.
| crystalhelix | 05-17-2005 11:39 AM |
in AS, Larry Fine used 275s up front and 255s in the rear. Seemed like he could work them well. :rolleyes:
J
J
| ChrisDP | 05-17-2005 12:07 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]cevat: He's Daddo. He'll be fast in ANYTHING.
--kC[/QUOTE]
Which is almost like a caveat :lol: Another point worth considering... Daddio's setups work for HIM, not necessarily everyone else. To paraphrase Mike Junior Johnson, another guy who knows 'something' about autocrossing, nobody else in FS could drive Daddio's FS Camaro setup... why? nobody else in FS had a throttle foot as sensitive as him.
--kC[/QUOTE]
Which is almost like a caveat :lol: Another point worth considering... Daddio's setups work for HIM, not necessarily everyone else. To paraphrase Mike Junior Johnson, another guy who knows 'something' about autocrossing, nobody else in FS could drive Daddio's FS Camaro setup... why? nobody else in FS had a throttle foot as sensitive as him.
| makofoto | 05-17-2005 01:59 PM |
I thought that the Sedan A arms were 10 mm wider then the Wagon ones ... but our preliminary research is showing that the A arms are the same ... and it's the pick-up points that are different ... yet ... some people have switched A arms ? :confused:
It does seem that the drive shafts are different ... which they would need to be either way ...
It does seem that the drive shafts are different ... which they would need to be either way ...
| dwx | 05-17-2005 02:16 PM |
I've done measurements on the GC8 chassis and the difference is in the control arms, at least on that car. The GC8 arms are narrower than the sedan aluminum arms I have here. On the chassis itself the pickup points are identical in spacing on the car on the GC8 and GD chassis. Distance from the front and rear pickup points on the subframe and chassis are identical. The subframe itself is identical in dimensions as well.
The RS axles versus a set of GD WRX or STI front axles are virtually the same length.
The RS axles versus a set of GD WRX or STI front axles are virtually the same length.
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-17-2005 08:32 PM |
The GD arms are defintiely longer than the GG ones (GC ones as well). The crossmembers sedan and wagon are the same.
I did read somewhere (might have been a post by dwx) that the axles are very close- they are different part#'s- I always assumed they would be 10mm longer as well, but looks like they are only a mm or two longer.
I did read somewhere (might have been a post by dwx) that the axles are very close- they are different part#'s- I always assumed they would be 10mm longer as well, but looks like they are only a mm or two longer.
| AUTOwrXER | 05-17-2005 08:49 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]Which is almost like a caveat :lol: Another point worth considering... Daddio's setups work for HIM, not necessarily everyone else. To paraphrase Mike Junior Johnson, another guy who knows 'something' about autocrossing, nobody else in FS could drive Daddio's FS Camaro setup... why? nobody else in FS had a throttle foot as sensitive as him.[/QUOTE]
I heard the same thing about his Neon shocks. They jacked the car down on rebound as soon as possible and he drove it on the bump stops, from what I heard...
I heard the same thing about his Neon shocks. They jacked the car down on rebound as soon as possible and he drove it on the bump stops, from what I heard...
| makofoto | 05-17-2005 10:35 PM |
How come the various on-line Suby parts catalogs show the same part numbers for Wagon and Sedan (I should learn GA, GD, GG Speak) control arms but different numbers for the axles ?
If one does change from Wagon arms to Sedan arms ... does one HAVE to change axles? (ahem ... A friend of mine MIGHT not need his STI Aluminum A arms after the 30th of May [Hearing]. :-)
If one does change from Wagon arms to Sedan arms ... does one HAVE to change axles? (ahem ... A friend of mine MIGHT not need his STI Aluminum A arms after the 30th of May [Hearing]. :-)
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-17-2005 11:18 PM |
Different part #s for the front arms- sedan vs wagon 02/03- front sedan #'s 20202FE160 and 170, wagon 20202FE060 and 070; different #'s for sedan wagon 04+ as well sedan 20202FE560 and 570 wagon 20202FE460 and 470.
If you search the suspension forum someone (maybe dwx?) measured front axles sedan and wagon and found only a very minor difference in length- not the 10mm the arms are- maybe 1 or 2 mm- which isn't very much- I thought you'd see the full 10mm, but evidently not.
If you search the suspension forum someone (maybe dwx?) measured front axles sedan and wagon and found only a very minor difference in length- not the 10mm the arms are- maybe 1 or 2 mm- which isn't very much- I thought you'd see the full 10mm, but evidently not.
| Jsortor | 05-17-2005 11:20 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]How come the various on-line Suby parts catalogs show the same part numbers for Wagon and Sedan (I should learn GA, GD, GG Speak) control arms but different numbers for the axles ?
If one does change from Wagon arms to Sedan arms ... does on HAVE to change axles? (ahem ... A friend of mine MIGHT not need his STI Aluminum A arms after the 30th of May [Hearing]. :-)[/QUOTE]
They wont have an answer until after the 30th? Too long man.... I want to know the outcome now!
If one does change from Wagon arms to Sedan arms ... does on HAVE to change axles? (ahem ... A friend of mine MIGHT not need his STI Aluminum A arms after the 30th of May [Hearing]. :-)[/QUOTE]
They wont have an answer until after the 30th? Too long man.... I want to know the outcome now!
| makofoto | 05-18-2005 01:41 AM |
Hey BigSky ... I know we've talked about changing to the Sedan Arms before (you've done it correct?) ... it seems like it's a very BIG deal to change out the axles ... but just going to the wider Sedan arms is relatively easy ... right ?
Josh ... you think YOU are tired of waiting! Imagine Jeff ... and me ... since I want his Alu Arms. :D
Josh ... you think YOU are tired of waiting! Imagine Jeff ... and me ... since I want his Alu Arms. :D
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-18-2005 09:18 AM |
Actually I went the GC (old WRX) route- it was a direct bolt in- no worry about axles. They are much harder (and generally more expensive) to come by however.
You also don't get the wider track up front though- this was something I didn't consider when I did mine. I'm retty sure there are at least a couple of guys running the sedan arms that haven't swapped out axles.
You also don't get the wider track up front though- this was something I didn't consider when I did mine. I'm retty sure there are at least a couple of guys running the sedan arms that haven't swapped out axles.
| AUTOwrXER | 06-13-2005 01:42 PM |
FWIW, I talked to Daddio about his setup over the weekend in Toledo. He thinks the Evo is too loose with the 245s in the back, so he's switching to 285s all around. Watching the car on course, it is constantly trying to rotate with the 245s back there. His concern is that it takes about 2 runs for the rear tires to heat up, and he typically does not have a co-driver.
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-13-2005 03:22 PM |
Interesting. I wonder if it would be better w/ say 285/255- maybe he can't get the right diameter though. +40 width front to rear is more than I envisioned.
| AUTOwrXER | 06-14-2005 05:26 PM |
I'm considering running a more narrow track in the rear than the front, but IMO smaller tires in the rear is not what these cars want...
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-14-2005 10:19 PM |
What I was considering was the same width tires front/rear (225- wagon) running a 8" rim up front, 7.5" in the rear. The 1/2" shoudl get me about .2" wider up front, in addition the 8" rims are 42et, the rear 46- this gives me a slightly wider track up front.
Maybe a cheap, easy experiment would be to put some spacers up front (none in the rear) and give it a go????
Maybe a cheap, easy experiment would be to put some spacers up front (none in the rear) and give it a go????
| eyehate | 06-14-2005 10:28 PM |
i recently changed an axel and control arm out... took about 6 hours... if you need help pm me!
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