| AWMIII | 08-01-2001 07:59 PM |
Why GS is getting split
These are the GS results from a recent event for the Philly Region. It was rainy, but the results from recent dry events show the same segregation of times. looking at the results and the gap between the WRX, ITR and DSM and the rest of the fleet. it is painfully obvious why it is being split. I wonder what the new PAX will be?
Bill McMichael 8gs
Class: G-STOCK -----------------------------------------------------------------
1. 67/GS SAM KRAUSS 98 EAGL TALON > 35.412 <
TIMES: 1) 36.484 2) 38.420( 1) 3) 35.412 4) 38.157( 1)
2. 39/GS JEFF MACRAE, PHILA 98 ACUR INT. TYPER > 35.762 <
TIMES: 1) 39.094( 1) 2) 36.758 3) 36.152 4) 35.762
3. 7/GS BILL MCMICHAEL 02 SUBA WRX > 35.838 <
TIMES: 1) 39.293( 1) 2) 38.870 3) 36.951 4) 35.838
4. 6/GS JAY MARKWALDER, PHILA 98 ACUR INTEGRA > 36.079 <
TIMES: 1) 38.088 2) 36.771 3) 36.079 4) 35.720 O/C
5. 91/GS FRANK MCGOVERN 99 FORD CONTOUR > 37.442 <
TIMES: 1) 40.779 2) 38.253 3) 37.442
6. 112/GS BRYAN RUDOLPH 01 AUDI A4 > 38.262 <
TIMES: 1) 41.475 2) 42.758( 2) 3) 38.262 4) 38.483
7. 727/GS CRAIG ELLIOTT 98 AUDI A4 > 38.983 <
TIMES: 1) 39.799 2) 38.983 3) 41.168( 1) 4) 41.629( 2)
8. 55/GS TOM PLATT 96 PONT GRAND AM > 40.394 <
TIMES: 1) 44.764 2) 42.505 3) 40.810 4) 40.394
9. 34/GS ROBERT SLIWA 99 TOYO CAMRY > 40.484 <
TIMES: 1) 47.813 2) 44.899 3) 40.484 4) 42.950( 1)
10. 520/GS DAVID ELLERS 00 AUDI A4 > 40.900 <
TIMES: 1) 43.823 2) 43.349( 1) 3) 34.885 O/C 4) 40.900( 1)
11. 15/GS SCOTT DIETRICH 95 FORD TAURUS SHO > 41.414 <
TIMES: 1) 45.880 2) 44.343 O/C 3) 41.902 4) 41.414
12. 111/GS JOSH NEIDICH 01 ACCU IMPR RS > 41.983 <
TIMES: 1) 47.555 2) 41.705 O/C 3) 41.983 4) 40.015 O/C
13. 17/GS DAVID FORD 99 FORD CONTOUR > 42.272 <
TIMES: 1) 46.077 O/C 2) 42.423 O/C 3) 42.272 4) 39.838 O/C
14. 28/GS DAVID NELSON 87 CHEV CAMERO > 42.619 <
TIMES: 1) 43.513 2) 42.619
Bill McMichael 8gs
Class: G-STOCK -----------------------------------------------------------------
1. 67/GS SAM KRAUSS 98 EAGL TALON > 35.412 <
TIMES: 1) 36.484 2) 38.420( 1) 3) 35.412 4) 38.157( 1)
2. 39/GS JEFF MACRAE, PHILA 98 ACUR INT. TYPER > 35.762 <
TIMES: 1) 39.094( 1) 2) 36.758 3) 36.152 4) 35.762
3. 7/GS BILL MCMICHAEL 02 SUBA WRX > 35.838 <
TIMES: 1) 39.293( 1) 2) 38.870 3) 36.951 4) 35.838
4. 6/GS JAY MARKWALDER, PHILA 98 ACUR INTEGRA > 36.079 <
TIMES: 1) 38.088 2) 36.771 3) 36.079 4) 35.720 O/C
5. 91/GS FRANK MCGOVERN 99 FORD CONTOUR > 37.442 <
TIMES: 1) 40.779 2) 38.253 3) 37.442
6. 112/GS BRYAN RUDOLPH 01 AUDI A4 > 38.262 <
TIMES: 1) 41.475 2) 42.758( 2) 3) 38.262 4) 38.483
7. 727/GS CRAIG ELLIOTT 98 AUDI A4 > 38.983 <
TIMES: 1) 39.799 2) 38.983 3) 41.168( 1) 4) 41.629( 2)
8. 55/GS TOM PLATT 96 PONT GRAND AM > 40.394 <
TIMES: 1) 44.764 2) 42.505 3) 40.810 4) 40.394
9. 34/GS ROBERT SLIWA 99 TOYO CAMRY > 40.484 <
TIMES: 1) 47.813 2) 44.899 3) 40.484 4) 42.950( 1)
10. 520/GS DAVID ELLERS 00 AUDI A4 > 40.900 <
TIMES: 1) 43.823 2) 43.349( 1) 3) 34.885 O/C 4) 40.900( 1)
11. 15/GS SCOTT DIETRICH 95 FORD TAURUS SHO > 41.414 <
TIMES: 1) 45.880 2) 44.343 O/C 3) 41.902 4) 41.414
12. 111/GS JOSH NEIDICH 01 ACCU IMPR RS > 41.983 <
TIMES: 1) 47.555 2) 41.705 O/C 3) 41.983 4) 40.015 O/C
13. 17/GS DAVID FORD 99 FORD CONTOUR > 42.272 <
TIMES: 1) 46.077 O/C 2) 42.423 O/C 3) 42.272 4) 39.838 O/C
14. 28/GS DAVID NELSON 87 CHEV CAMERO > 42.619 <
TIMES: 1) 43.513 2) 42.619
| adhowe70 | 08-01-2001 08:05 PM |
I would guess that the new GS PAX index will be very similar to the old one.
Check out the Bremerton Nat'l Tour results for a little different perspective on the GS split. The ITR requires the split. Its a no contest call. The question... what goes with it? I don't think the WRX is competitive with the ITR. I don't think anything in GS this year is competitive with the ITR. But, they have to make a class.
On the up side, I think the 2.5RS will be very competitive next year.
Check out the Bremerton Nat'l Tour results for a little different perspective on the GS split. The ITR requires the split. Its a no contest call. The question... what goes with it? I don't think the WRX is competitive with the ITR. I don't think anything in GS this year is competitive with the ITR. But, they have to make a class.
On the up side, I think the 2.5RS will be very competitive next year.
| kelley nelson | 08-01-2001 08:47 PM |
It's not really fair to compare Frank McGovern's results with Sam Krauss' ;p
This is Frank's first year autocrossing and Sam Krauss won GS at the Petersburg ProSolo this year over a pretty healthy GS field ;)
I think to get descent data one really needs to look at the national-level results.
You'll see something similar, of course, but still.
This is Frank's first year autocrossing and Sam Krauss won GS at the Petersburg ProSolo this year over a pretty healthy GS field ;)
I think to get descent data one really needs to look at the national-level results.
You'll see something similar, of course, but still.
| AWMIII | 08-01-2001 08:54 PM |
Kelly... let me get this straight...
My sample sucks, but my premis is correct?
Oh i think the WRX can be competitive with the ITRs with the right amount of developement. People have been developing ITRs for several years. We have just begun with the WRX. At the beginning of this season, I was feeling like the ITRs were not afirly classed at all, but recently I have changed my opinion. Two things are starting to happen. I am learning to drive my car (sounds stupid I know), and I have made some legal tweaks that have yielded copious seconds. I think that on the really tight courses and the really open courses, the WRX can definately hang, it seems that the in between courses are tough. On the tight courses the AWD helps and on the open courses, the turbo helps. I still need to sort out my alignment, but the car is getting there. I just need to catch Kelly in PAX:p
My sample sucks, but my premis is correct?
Oh i think the WRX can be competitive with the ITRs with the right amount of developement. People have been developing ITRs for several years. We have just begun with the WRX. At the beginning of this season, I was feeling like the ITRs were not afirly classed at all, but recently I have changed my opinion. Two things are starting to happen. I am learning to drive my car (sounds stupid I know), and I have made some legal tweaks that have yielded copious seconds. I think that on the really tight courses and the really open courses, the WRX can definately hang, it seems that the in between courses are tough. On the tight courses the AWD helps and on the open courses, the turbo helps. I still need to sort out my alignment, but the car is getting there. I just need to catch Kelly in PAX:p
| jffWRX | 08-02-2001 06:13 AM |
I'm fairly new to this... but perhaps you can help me with a couple of questions on this topic...
There is a "Solo Memo" in the August 2001 edition of SportsCar
- page F-175... shows the WRX listed in D Stock, along with the Type R. Is this the end result of the split you're talking about???
Secondly, I read in Grassroots Motorsports ( their August, 2001 edition - page 19 ) that another decision was made regarding the WRX... 17" wheels, short shift kits and other dealer-installed performance parts are not legal for Stock class autocrossing. If this is the case, what class does that put us in???
Thanks in advance.
dp
There is a "Solo Memo" in the August 2001 edition of SportsCar
- page F-175... shows the WRX listed in D Stock, along with the Type R. Is this the end result of the split you're talking about???
Secondly, I read in Grassroots Motorsports ( their August, 2001 edition - page 19 ) that another decision was made regarding the WRX... 17" wheels, short shift kits and other dealer-installed performance parts are not legal for Stock class autocrossing. If this is the case, what class does that put us in???
Thanks in advance.
dp
| LUME | 08-02-2001 08:17 AM |
Yeah, too late for me to fall back into GS.... But I could always cheat!! The only things that are really holding me back are my ganz flow, my borla headers, and my V5 springs....
| Danno | 08-02-2001 08:31 AM |
jffWRX, as near as I can tell, a WRX with either the BBS wheels or the short shifter would be in D Street Prepared. Since it has a turbocharger, it's not eligible for the Street Touring classes unless the SCCA specifically classifies it as such (like they did with the A4 1.8T). Since the rulebook specifies the non-quattro version of the A4 as the only eligible version, my guess is that the WRX won't ever be allowed in Street Touring due to the combination of turbo and AWD.
On your first question -- the split everyone's talking about is the decision to move the WRX to D stock and leave the other Imprezas in G stock. SportsCar (8/01, p. 100) sez: "The new D Stock class isintended as a playground for 'designer cars,' or manufacturers' special versions of sport coupes and sedans. The scrappy Neon ACR is joined by former G Stock stars like the Acura Integra Type R, Eclipse/Talon Turbo, Audi TT and Toyota Celica GTS. Also included are the impressive Audi S4, Subaru WRX and even the E30 BMW M3, previously banished to A Stock for excessive speed in the hands of a talented driver."
We've got our work cut out for us, Subie Chillun'! :D
Danno
On your first question -- the split everyone's talking about is the decision to move the WRX to D stock and leave the other Imprezas in G stock. SportsCar (8/01, p. 100) sez: "The new D Stock class isintended as a playground for 'designer cars,' or manufacturers' special versions of sport coupes and sedans. The scrappy Neon ACR is joined by former G Stock stars like the Acura Integra Type R, Eclipse/Talon Turbo, Audi TT and Toyota Celica GTS. Also included are the impressive Audi S4, Subaru WRX and even the E30 BMW M3, previously banished to A Stock for excessive speed in the hands of a talented driver."
We've got our work cut out for us, Subie Chillun'! :D
Danno
| ChrisW | 08-02-2001 11:41 AM |
The latest fast track has a tiny one paragragh stating that the WRX is now in ESP for street prepared.
If you have the short shifter, BBS wheels, anything but a boost controller, or any mods to the turbo, your in ESP kicken the butts of all the mustangs and F-bodies
Properly setup, the WRX will dominate here.
If you have the short shifter, BBS wheels, anything but a boost controller, or any mods to the turbo, your in ESP kicken the butts of all the mustangs and F-bodies
Properly setup, the WRX will dominate here.
| Mike Smith | 08-02-2001 01:23 PM |
I was amazed that they put the WRX in GS to begin with. Compared to the RS, it's got 55 more horsepower, a claimed stiffer chassis, and available 18" wheels. I guess it was just a stopgap until they figured out where it should go. So is the new D stock classification immediate or does it wait until next season?
| ColinL | 08-02-2001 02:36 PM |
the WRX won't dominate ESP, it doesn't have the horsepower. even if it did (which is unlikely as hell, but possible if a nationally competitive driver hopped in one-- say Bob Tunnell or Mark Daddio) the car would be punted to a higher class the very next season, never to return.
GS has been imbalanced for some time. the whole stock class re-org was badly needed, but even now folks are looking at the proposed structure and planning what they'll drive next. IMO the integra type R is still the car to beat in GS, *not* the WRX. if the WRX only had a front LSD I'd give it at least even money. a great driver could win with a WRX anyway, don't get me wrong. oh, and the BMW e36 325 is something to fear in GS as well for this season.
GS has been imbalanced for some time. the whole stock class re-org was badly needed, but even now folks are looking at the proposed structure and planning what they'll drive next. IMO the integra type R is still the car to beat in GS, *not* the WRX. if the WRX only had a front LSD I'd give it at least even money. a great driver could win with a WRX anyway, don't get me wrong. oh, and the BMW e36 325 is something to fear in GS as well for this season.
| RidinLow | 08-02-2001 03:20 PM |
Wow, if a sport packaged E36 is in GS, I don't really see how the RS has a chance.
| WRXster | 08-02-2001 07:13 PM |
The BMWs are heavy, and yet still prone to "tipping over". If the WRX doesn't have the power, a 325 is hopeless... And sometimes it rains :)
And it's 90% driver anyway, and that creates some anomolies... witness the B Stock Miatas being the fastest cars on street tires at the Bremerton Nat. Tour. Faster even than SS Carvettes and ASP Porsches!
And it's 90% driver anyway, and that creates some anomolies... witness the B Stock Miatas being the fastest cars on street tires at the Bremerton Nat. Tour. Faster even than SS Carvettes and ASP Porsches!
| AWMIII | 08-02-2001 09:14 PM |
I am on the verge of running with the ITRs and I am a crappy driver. And yes the ITRs I am referring to are well driven and well sorted. There are several ITRs in my local area that run national events whom I gauge myself against. Last event, I beat one and lost to one by a couple of tenths. Two events ago I lost to one by 6/100ths. Point being that I am getting really close and it is my first season with AWD turbo and the whole subie rally car handling thing. I am not there, but I firmly believe that I could catch them in the next season or so. I am starting to get the car figured out and sorted out.
E36s are Boats. I used to have a m3. I think my WRX is almost as fast and much more nimble. a 325I is not a threat unless comfort is somehow scored. Too much body roll.
E36s are Boats. I used to have a m3. I think my WRX is almost as fast and much more nimble. a 325I is not a threat unless comfort is somehow scored. Too much body roll.
| adhowe70 | 08-02-2001 09:17 PM |
The new classes are going to be effective as of January 1, 2002. And the BBS wheels are not stock class legal for the WRX. A 2002 WRX must run on the 16x6.5 stock wheels. Unless it moves to ESP. 55 more HP is true, but so is nearly 300 pounds of weight. If we could put the WRX on a "stock class legal" weight loss plan, the car would be much more competitive.
I'm going to give GS a go next year. I'm preparing to make my 2.5RS competitive and the driver is improving every week. I think I can be somewhat competitive in the class next year. I don't think I'll win a Nat'l Championship, but I'll give it the old Subie try.
I'm going to give GS a go next year. I'm preparing to make my 2.5RS competitive and the driver is improving every week. I think I can be somewhat competitive in the class next year. I don't think I'll win a Nat'l Championship, but I'll give it the old Subie try.
| ColinL | 08-03-2001 01:52 AM |
no offense guys, but I've seen national-level competitors in GS at non-regional events.
the '95 325is was 3085lb (hmm, like a WRX) with better than WRX weight distribution, and was 'rated' at 189hp but managed to move 0-60 in easily under 7s, say 6.5s at best. the e36 M3 likewise churned out pretty good numbers for 'only 240HP'. it is competitive, check some of the results on [url]www.scca.org[/url] for national tour and prosolos. (pros do put a lot more emphasis on power though) and I dunno where that tipping BS comes from but by my eyes the 325s have a ton less body roll than a stock RS or even WRX. (WRX is an improvement on the RS but still rolls a good deal.)
the ITR, 325is, WRX and believe it or not V6 Camaro/Firebird (3300lb, but 200HP/240lb-ft) are all better [i]on paper[/i] than the 2.5RS and that's why they go to DS next year while the 2.5RS stays and becomes instantly a lot more competitive. wait... actually the Cambird stays I believe. they're not as big of a threat at any rate.
the '95 325is was 3085lb (hmm, like a WRX) with better than WRX weight distribution, and was 'rated' at 189hp but managed to move 0-60 in easily under 7s, say 6.5s at best. the e36 M3 likewise churned out pretty good numbers for 'only 240HP'. it is competitive, check some of the results on [url]www.scca.org[/url] for national tour and prosolos. (pros do put a lot more emphasis on power though) and I dunno where that tipping BS comes from but by my eyes the 325s have a ton less body roll than a stock RS or even WRX. (WRX is an improvement on the RS but still rolls a good deal.)
the ITR, 325is, WRX and believe it or not V6 Camaro/Firebird (3300lb, but 200HP/240lb-ft) are all better [i]on paper[/i] than the 2.5RS and that's why they go to DS next year while the 2.5RS stays and becomes instantly a lot more competitive. wait... actually the Cambird stays I believe. they're not as big of a threat at any rate.
| Mike Smith | 08-03-2001 04:43 AM |
[QUOTE]And the BBS wheels are not stock class legal for the WRX. A 2002 WRX must run on the 16x6.5 stock wheels. Unless it moves to ESP. [/QUOTE]
:confused:
Why would the SCCA rule a car with factory wheels as prepared? Sometimes their logic escapes me.
:confused:
Why would the SCCA rule a car with factory wheels as prepared? Sometimes their logic escapes me.
| ColinL | 08-03-2001 09:49 AM |
it's the definition of stock class, to keep things fair and keep low-volume special options, dealer-installed bits, etc. from being 'stock'.
you can look in your rulebook for the official mumbling, but basically to qualify for Stock class a trim level / option has to be able to be ordered as a regular option and delivered on the car from the final assembly point. This is Gunma, Japan for an Impreza. Any parts that are installed at the port or dealer are NOT valid in stock class... and the optional BBS wheels are definitely that, along with almost all the other stuff too.
And no, I doubt someone would protest you for an armrest extender. If there were a DIO/PIO that removed the armrest or made it smaller though, some dork might protest that.
you can look in your rulebook for the official mumbling, but basically to qualify for Stock class a trim level / option has to be able to be ordered as a regular option and delivered on the car from the final assembly point. This is Gunma, Japan for an Impreza. Any parts that are installed at the port or dealer are NOT valid in stock class... and the optional BBS wheels are definitely that, along with almost all the other stuff too.
And no, I doubt someone would protest you for an armrest extender. If there were a DIO/PIO that removed the armrest or made it smaller though, some dork might protest that.
| Mike Smith | 08-03-2001 10:56 AM |
[QUOTE]I doubt someone would protest you for an armrest extender. If there were a DIO/PIO that removed the armrest or made it smaller though, some dork might protest that[/QUOTE]
Especially at Nationals - they'll use anything to move themselves up a notch!:rolleyes:
Especially at Nationals - they'll use anything to move themselves up a notch!:rolleyes:
| WRXster | 08-03-2001 03:15 PM |
MIke S.- the interior bits are allowed by the "Comfort and Convenience" rules. As long as you add stuff and don't remove anything.("the passenger seat got in the way of my elbow, so it was convenient for me to remove it...:)
The BBS wheels are sold by Subaru, but not as an installed option, so no go there. Like anyone would pay for them anyway...
ColinL- Subaru PIOs have been ruled legal for SCCA Solo2 competition. Thus my Diff Protector is not an issue.
It took several years for the Miata, MR2, even Talons to find the "sweet spot" in their set-ups. And were all fairly unruly pigs until that happened. The WRX will take a year or two also, but more people are trying harder :)
The BBS wheels are sold by Subaru, but not as an installed option, so no go there. Like anyone would pay for them anyway...
ColinL- Subaru PIOs have been ruled legal for SCCA Solo2 competition. Thus my Diff Protector is not an issue.
It took several years for the Miata, MR2, even Talons to find the "sweet spot" in their set-ups. And were all fairly unruly pigs until that happened. The WRX will take a year or two also, but more people are trying harder :)
| adhowe70 | 08-03-2001 07:27 PM |
Colin is right about nationally competitive cars and drivers. I didn't believe it was that big of a gap. Until National Tour last weekend. I was smoked by Kevin McCormick in his ITR. No offense guys, but I would have needed a rocket up my *** to catch him. And the best WRX was nearly 6 seconds behind Kevin. :eek:
I'm relatively new to the SCCA Solo scene, but I've figured out that there are very few nationally competitive drivers in any one region. I think the difference between regionally competitive and nationally competitive is about 2 seconds on a 50 second course. Ouch! Don't believe? Go to a national event and find out the hard way.
I'm relatively new to the SCCA Solo scene, but I've figured out that there are very few nationally competitive drivers in any one region. I think the difference between regionally competitive and nationally competitive is about 2 seconds on a 50 second course. Ouch! Don't believe? Go to a national event and find out the hard way.
| AWMIII | 08-04-2001 09:28 AM |
If you look at the results above you will see Sam Krauss who has won Pro Solo events and took second at Ayer, Ma to a McKamey instructor. He beat me by 4/10ths. Jeff Mcrae in his ITR beat me by 2/10ths only after getting like 4 re-runs. Both of these guys do nation events. below are the results from Ayer, MA
G Stock Drivers: 13 Trophies: 4
1T 116 G.H. Sharp 00 Audi TT Gray Hoosier CCar 62.359(1) 60.200 60.113 104.732
[16] Kernersville, NC SF Motorsports SEDIV 44.619 DNF 46.404(1)
2T 67 Samuel Krauss 98 Eagle Talon Maroon Hoosier Nwst 60.332 60.642 61.026 105.272
Wilmington, DE Ileagle Racing NORPAC 48.183(1) 45.428 44.940 (0.540)
3T 66 Keith Casey 02 Subaru WRX Silver Kumho NEng 62.129 61.071 64.052(1) 106.052
Somerset, MA NEDIV 45.997 44.981 DNF (0.780)
4T 74 Dale Kunze 98 Acura Integra R Wh Kumho WNY DNF 61.798 61.287 106.547
Grand Island, NY NEDIV 46.044 45.260 45.776 (0.495)
5 16 Arthur Emerson III 00 Audi TT Battleship Hoosier NY 66.737(2) 62.455 61.450 107.068
[116 Monroe, NY HUOA Navy/Racing for Tots NEDIV 47.840(1) 45.618 51.539(3) (0.521)
6 3 Ron Gross 00 Audi TT 180 Black Kumho NEng DNF 61.655 63.615(1) 108.413
No. Hampton, NH NEDIV 46.758 47.243 49.027 (1.345)
7 39 Jeff MacRae 98 Acura Integra R Wh Kumho Phil 62.908 76.577(1) 63.627 108.567
Bethlehem, PA NEDIV 48.528(1) 45.659 45.810 (0.154)
8 47 Aaron R. Buckley 01 Toyota Celica GTS Hoosier NCar 64.373 63.029 62.188 109.193
Wake Forest, NC McGeorge Toyota SEDIV 47.005 DNF 47.628 (0.626)
9 5 Christopher Morton 011 Mitsubishi Eclips N/A Fing 65.634 62.924 63.051 110.847
Rochester, NY NEDIV 48.816 48.447 47.923 (1.654)
10 71 Robert Townsend 97 Honda Prelude Blac N/A NEng 66.022 66.635(1) 64.744 112.458
Ellington, CT Townsend Racing NEDIV 48.779 47.714 48.292 (1.611)
11 45 Jeff Martynuska 95 Ford Probe GT Blue Kumho NEng DNF DNF 68.719(1) 118.125
Belmont, MA Yellow Dog Racing NEDIV 51.145 50.150 49.406 (5.667)
12 48 Richard Blanchard 80 Oldsmobile Starfir N/A NEng DNF DNF 76.378 134.101
Weatogue, CT NEDIV 57.723 67.691(3) 58.814 (15.976)
DS 23 Duncan Kennedy 02 Subaru WRX Black Kumho MoHu DNF DNF DNF No Time
Lake Placid, NT NEDIV DNS DNS DNS
My point is that the WRX is getting competitive. If I can get a bit better, I think I can do really well against the ITRs and DSMs
G Stock Drivers: 13 Trophies: 4
1T 116 G.H. Sharp 00 Audi TT Gray Hoosier CCar 62.359(1) 60.200 60.113 104.732
[16] Kernersville, NC SF Motorsports SEDIV 44.619 DNF 46.404(1)
2T 67 Samuel Krauss 98 Eagle Talon Maroon Hoosier Nwst 60.332 60.642 61.026 105.272
Wilmington, DE Ileagle Racing NORPAC 48.183(1) 45.428 44.940 (0.540)
3T 66 Keith Casey 02 Subaru WRX Silver Kumho NEng 62.129 61.071 64.052(1) 106.052
Somerset, MA NEDIV 45.997 44.981 DNF (0.780)
4T 74 Dale Kunze 98 Acura Integra R Wh Kumho WNY DNF 61.798 61.287 106.547
Grand Island, NY NEDIV 46.044 45.260 45.776 (0.495)
5 16 Arthur Emerson III 00 Audi TT Battleship Hoosier NY 66.737(2) 62.455 61.450 107.068
[116 Monroe, NY HUOA Navy/Racing for Tots NEDIV 47.840(1) 45.618 51.539(3) (0.521)
6 3 Ron Gross 00 Audi TT 180 Black Kumho NEng DNF 61.655 63.615(1) 108.413
No. Hampton, NH NEDIV 46.758 47.243 49.027 (1.345)
7 39 Jeff MacRae 98 Acura Integra R Wh Kumho Phil 62.908 76.577(1) 63.627 108.567
Bethlehem, PA NEDIV 48.528(1) 45.659 45.810 (0.154)
8 47 Aaron R. Buckley 01 Toyota Celica GTS Hoosier NCar 64.373 63.029 62.188 109.193
Wake Forest, NC McGeorge Toyota SEDIV 47.005 DNF 47.628 (0.626)
9 5 Christopher Morton 011 Mitsubishi Eclips N/A Fing 65.634 62.924 63.051 110.847
Rochester, NY NEDIV 48.816 48.447 47.923 (1.654)
10 71 Robert Townsend 97 Honda Prelude Blac N/A NEng 66.022 66.635(1) 64.744 112.458
Ellington, CT Townsend Racing NEDIV 48.779 47.714 48.292 (1.611)
11 45 Jeff Martynuska 95 Ford Probe GT Blue Kumho NEng DNF DNF 68.719(1) 118.125
Belmont, MA Yellow Dog Racing NEDIV 51.145 50.150 49.406 (5.667)
12 48 Richard Blanchard 80 Oldsmobile Starfir N/A NEng DNF DNF 76.378 134.101
Weatogue, CT NEDIV 57.723 67.691(3) 58.814 (15.976)
DS 23 Duncan Kennedy 02 Subaru WRX Black Kumho MoHu DNF DNF DNF No Time
Lake Placid, NT NEDIV DNS DNS DNS
My point is that the WRX is getting competitive. If I can get a bit better, I think I can do really well against the ITRs and DSMs
| adhowe70 | 08-04-2001 10:45 PM |
The WRX can be competitive (if you mean top 10), but I don't think it will be a National Championship car. If you're that close to Krauss, then you are driving VERY well. You're driving much better than I do.
But, (and here is what I'm saying) even though Krauss won at a ProSolo (which I think favors a DSM turbo or a WRX) he was 19th at the National Championships last year. 3 seconds (on 110 seconds of competition) out of the win. There is a big gap between Krauss and the Fauth/Sapp/McCormick pack at the top of the standings. Check out Larry Fine's results in the Wendover ProSolo to see what a WRX can do against Kevin McCormick and David Fauth.
We have a guy locally that drives a 2.5RS that well, but he's not national championship competitive. I had to see the slaughter to believe.
I hope you get there. I'll be one of the first to congratulate you if you do. I just don't expect to see it happen.
But, (and here is what I'm saying) even though Krauss won at a ProSolo (which I think favors a DSM turbo or a WRX) he was 19th at the National Championships last year. 3 seconds (on 110 seconds of competition) out of the win. There is a big gap between Krauss and the Fauth/Sapp/McCormick pack at the top of the standings. Check out Larry Fine's results in the Wendover ProSolo to see what a WRX can do against Kevin McCormick and David Fauth.
We have a guy locally that drives a 2.5RS that well, but he's not national championship competitive. I had to see the slaughter to believe.
I hope you get there. I'll be one of the first to congratulate you if you do. I just don't expect to see it happen.
| jlyttle | 08-07-2001 01:58 PM |
I agree with ColinL regarding the E36 325 and M3. Especially the M3. There is no way a WRX could ever handle as well, stock. The M3 is one of the most perfectly balanced out there, and the power and braking is superb.
| AWMIII | 08-07-2001 02:56 PM |
The e30 M3 does handle really well in stock form, but I don't think it has as much power as the WRX. The e36 M3, I think will be staying in AS. I am also not sure how good the stock brakes are on the e30 M3. I used to drive an E36 M3 and it was really fast, but not as nimble as the WRX. Its brakes were much better. Many of the e30 M3s that I have encountered are modded and would run in other classes. In addition, there are very few e30 m3s left since not many were built. The e30 was a screamer in its day, but remember that day was more than 20 years ago. The standards have changed. The e36 will continue to be in another class. Unless you have driven a WRX that is prepared for GS I would not comment. The potential is amazing. I can not believe that Subaru would hide such a wonderfully performing car behind the luke warm tuning that we have recieved. It really comes alive with a little tuning. The braking handling, and lag issues can all be addressed very easily while remaining stock legal.
| Stoopid MOMO | 08-07-2001 09:55 PM |
My opinion: If you have an RS2.5 and are anxious to start auto-crossing now is your moment in the sun. In my region theres this one guy from Raleigh in an ITR holding back all the RS's, almost always by less then 1.5 secs. With all the super cars out of GS, especially the all to common ITR, Rs2.5's are going to rank supreme.
| WRXhauls | 08-07-2001 10:30 PM |
AWMIII,
Congrats on going head to head with the ITRs. Here in FLR, the WRXs are rookies and chasing the RSs, DSMs and even a scary fast Probe.
What's your secret for dealing with turbo lag and still staying stock?
Left foot braking?
Congrats on going head to head with the ITRs. Here in FLR, the WRXs are rookies and chasing the RSs, DSMs and even a scary fast Probe.
What's your secret for dealing with turbo lag and still staying stock?
Left foot braking?
| WRXMaybe | 08-08-2001 05:24 AM |
A couple of thoughts
I don't see the Bremerton Tour as a good measuring stick for car comparisons, the rain was off and on all weekend, throwing off ALL the run groups, even down to individual runs. B Stock beating those other classes is a direct result of this, as was the course, which was VERY tight, apparently.
Try the Divisional at Mather in Sacramento, weather was consistent all weekend, with the course being designed by Frank Stagnaro, who I believe is also designing one of the courses for Nationals this year.
Also, don't compare the performance of Turbocharged AWD cars to no torque having FWD cars at Pro Solos.. those aren't an accurate gauge either, as the launch at the beginning is enough to throw the Subies and DSM cars a good car length ahead of ITR's, an advantage that doesn't exist in a straight autocross.
My .02 cents worth.
Also, from what I understand, one of the things that is really holding back the WRX is gearing, with people finding themselves trapped between first and second, is this true? Having never driven one myself, I have no way to know.
Try the Divisional at Mather in Sacramento, weather was consistent all weekend, with the course being designed by Frank Stagnaro, who I believe is also designing one of the courses for Nationals this year.
Also, don't compare the performance of Turbocharged AWD cars to no torque having FWD cars at Pro Solos.. those aren't an accurate gauge either, as the launch at the beginning is enough to throw the Subies and DSM cars a good car length ahead of ITR's, an advantage that doesn't exist in a straight autocross.
My .02 cents worth.
Also, from what I understand, one of the things that is really holding back the WRX is gearing, with people finding themselves trapped between first and second, is this true? Having never driven one myself, I have no way to know.
| WRXhauls | 08-08-2001 07:01 AM |
The gap between 1st and 2nd has been a big issue for me - but as a rookie, I haven't mastered the heel toe thing yet. Kinda goes with the left foot braking thing....
ya gots to have skilz ( and decent tires )
ya gots to have skilz ( and decent tires )
| WRXster | 08-08-2001 04:08 PM |
The Divisional at Mather, in June? Is that the one you're referring to. With only 1 WRX driven by some old doofus, running stock alignment and Kuhmos on comcrete for the first time? And only one RS in each of GS and STS? (Were you the BRP RS in stock? As I recall you weren't too impressed with your Goodriches, but you still beat me pretty well:))
Sure the weather was better, heck it was barely 95 on race day, but hardly anyone was there :)
I was at both events and I think Bremerton with 5 race-tired WRXen and 2 RSs in GS, and 2 more RS in STS, offers a good set of useful data.
Only Sunday heats 3 and 4 were impacted by rain. Saturday was damp first thing but it did not rain. GS ran heat 5 and the course was cool and dry both days. BS, ASP and STS ran together in heat 2 and may have been getting the first sprinkles for they're third runs, but you can't see a definite impact on times. So no Subaru got to show off it's wet track superiority.
Though the course was "narrow" in spots, which is different than "tight", it was also very fast which led to alot of cone-age and DNFs.
I had no trouble with low end pull, but I still had too much rear toe out... which is where my cones came from: letting the rear run too wide in the transient manures, but tremendoulsy helping to avoid plowing out the sweepers...
Sure the weather was better, heck it was barely 95 on race day, but hardly anyone was there :)
I was at both events and I think Bremerton with 5 race-tired WRXen and 2 RSs in GS, and 2 more RS in STS, offers a good set of useful data.
Only Sunday heats 3 and 4 were impacted by rain. Saturday was damp first thing but it did not rain. GS ran heat 5 and the course was cool and dry both days. BS, ASP and STS ran together in heat 2 and may have been getting the first sprinkles for they're third runs, but you can't see a definite impact on times. So no Subaru got to show off it's wet track superiority.
Though the course was "narrow" in spots, which is different than "tight", it was also very fast which led to alot of cone-age and DNFs.
I had no trouble with low end pull, but I still had too much rear toe out... which is where my cones came from: letting the rear run too wide in the transient manures, but tremendoulsy helping to avoid plowing out the sweepers...
| AWMIII | 08-08-2001 04:33 PM |
The gearing is an issue. Which is why I don't think it will dominate on an inbetween type course (not open, not tight). Putting a freer cat-back exhaust helps a great deal with the lag issue. I have been trying to learn to get back on the gas a little earlier. I do not left foot brake (yet). With the suspension sorted the braking is much improved as is turn-in, ultimate grip, and general feel. The correct tires are a given. Installing a boost gauge and watching it on the street has given me new insight to the boost curve and response.
| subrew2 | 08-09-2001 11:25 AM |
I agree with WRXster.
Bremerton was a useful event for comparing WRX, RS, ITR, and TT times. G-stock ran dry both days, with no inconsistancy between the 1st person out and the 17th person out.
The course was very typical of Northwest events. Lots of slaloms, but also several fast waloms and a few sweepers. I think the WRX was better geared for it than the RS, as I found myself between 2nd and 3rd gear both days. Finally settled on leaving it in 3rd on the run back to the finish, which seemed to work fine.
The new d-stock will be interesting, but I feel it will still be a Type R class. The WRX will get closer at Prosolo events, due to the drag race start and almost flat out and back nature. They get hurt by the slaloms, which are numerous.
National tour events will definitely favor the Integra. I'm a subie fan and all, but wouldn't choose a WRX for the class. Heck, i would choose my RS against the WRX...
The new G-stock will be interesting. It will be close between the Neons, RS and even a few wild cards like the SVO, V6 Camaro with Series II 3800 engine, and even the Celica GT. The neons are a known quantity, and if some of the big dogs return (doubtful without Mopar money) everyone will be in trouble.
I've decided to stay and run stock next year, instead of jumping ship for STS.
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
Roseburg, OR
Bremerton was a useful event for comparing WRX, RS, ITR, and TT times. G-stock ran dry both days, with no inconsistancy between the 1st person out and the 17th person out.
The course was very typical of Northwest events. Lots of slaloms, but also several fast waloms and a few sweepers. I think the WRX was better geared for it than the RS, as I found myself between 2nd and 3rd gear both days. Finally settled on leaving it in 3rd on the run back to the finish, which seemed to work fine.
The new d-stock will be interesting, but I feel it will still be a Type R class. The WRX will get closer at Prosolo events, due to the drag race start and almost flat out and back nature. They get hurt by the slaloms, which are numerous.
National tour events will definitely favor the Integra. I'm a subie fan and all, but wouldn't choose a WRX for the class. Heck, i would choose my RS against the WRX...
The new G-stock will be interesting. It will be close between the Neons, RS and even a few wild cards like the SVO, V6 Camaro with Series II 3800 engine, and even the Celica GT. The neons are a known quantity, and if some of the big dogs return (doubtful without Mopar money) everyone will be in trouble.
I've decided to stay and run stock next year, instead of jumping ship for STS.
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
Roseburg, OR
| Gary (gg) | 08-10-2001 03:08 AM |
I agree that many of the WRX's are not developed yet. I don't think that there is one WRX or RS with double adjustable struts in stock class in the country. A lot of the WRX's in GS are on stock struts and probably no alignment. Also, how many WRX's are using 205/55R16 size R tire instead of 225/50R16's?
At the Topeka divisional, which used last years South course from Nationals, the 1-2 finish of a BMW 325is and V-6 Camaro in GS, are really the two cars I see that can beat the ITR's grip. They flip-flopped results at the Peru Nat Tour. The BMW was within .1 of the winning GS time last year.
Also, the cars to watch for in next years GS class are:
Subaru Impreza 2.5RS
93-97 Mazda MX-6 LS
1st gen CRX/Civic Si
94-99 Celica ST/GT
BMW 318ti
91 BMW 318is
88-89 Conquest/Starion Turbo
Sentra SE-R/NX2000
90-94 Celica All-Trac
At the Topeka divisional, which used last years South course from Nationals, the 1-2 finish of a BMW 325is and V-6 Camaro in GS, are really the two cars I see that can beat the ITR's grip. They flip-flopped results at the Peru Nat Tour. The BMW was within .1 of the winning GS time last year.
Also, the cars to watch for in next years GS class are:
Subaru Impreza 2.5RS
93-97 Mazda MX-6 LS
1st gen CRX/Civic Si
94-99 Celica ST/GT
BMW 318ti
91 BMW 318is
88-89 Conquest/Starion Turbo
Sentra SE-R/NX2000
90-94 Celica All-Trac
| WRXMaybe | 08-10-2001 03:39 AM |
WRXster, I was driving one of the yellow Type R's, #5 I think I was that weekend. It's my first season and that was something like my 15th event at the time (second on Kumhos), so I'm still very much a work in progress. The reason I didn't think Bremerton was a good guage was because of the large disparity between McCormick and the #2 finisher, and how well B Stock did, I figured they all got dry runs. I thought Kevin also may have benefitted from a dryer course somehow. You're right tho, Mather isn't a very good guage for the WRX-Type R comparo, I just thought that overall it might have been more consistent for everyone, in all classes.
D Stock is going to be very interesting next year, with the Rex's, Type R's, S4's and the E30 M3, not to mention Derek Butts' Lexus. I'm looking forward to having more cars in class that could win on any given day.
D Stock is going to be very interesting next year, with the Rex's, Type R's, S4's and the E30 M3, not to mention Derek Butts' Lexus. I'm looking forward to having more cars in class that could win on any given day.
| AWMIII | 08-10-2001 02:23 PM |
I'll be brief
The WRX is another car on decent shocks. Why would subaru sell it with the crappy stock onces, I don't know. They must be the re92 of the shock world. Anyone who has not driven a wrx on adjustables doesn't know what the car is capable of.
| WRXster | 08-10-2001 03:33 PM |
Look out! It's a Lexus!?!?
WRXmaybe, as with any statistical work, I throw out the obviously bad data, hign and low... So McKormick and the Taurus get tossed and we are left with what real people can do with real cars:lol:
Actually, the IS300 was a surprise to me in Sacramento. Derek Butts is a Master! And you did OK too :)
AMW111 and Gary, shocks are an important variable. I personally am not willing to spend $3K on JRZs or other custom shocks for ANY autoX car. So it's AGXs for me...
Primitive Paul Eklund has some magic struts on his WRX , but he didn't volunteer beyond that fact :confused: ONce he got a few runs in, his times dropped dramatically, as Bremerton was his FIRST event in the WRX.
SO who's up for the trip to Topeka? :cool:
Actually, the IS300 was a surprise to me in Sacramento. Derek Butts is a Master! And you did OK too :)
AMW111 and Gary, shocks are an important variable. I personally am not willing to spend $3K on JRZs or other custom shocks for ANY autoX car. So it's AGXs for me...
Primitive Paul Eklund has some magic struts on his WRX , but he didn't volunteer beyond that fact :confused: ONce he got a few runs in, his times dropped dramatically, as Bremerton was his FIRST event in the WRX.
SO who's up for the trip to Topeka? :cool:
| WRXMaybe | 08-10-2001 04:18 PM |
WRXster, no doubt McCormick qualifies as "bad data" (that's funny), he's definitely outside the mold. It's been fun seeing him and Butts go back and forth at the few local events they've both showed up for at the same time. I rode in Dereks' Lexus twice this weekend, once with him and once with his co-driver. I weigh about 250 pounds, and even with me in the car, that thing felt unbelievable. It didn't feel like it had the initial acceleration of the Type R (tho with a passenger weighing what I weigh in my car, I think mine would feel pretty slow, too), but the braking and the "stick" (on Hoosiers) felt unbelievable. My personal G-Tech (that's the seat of my pants, truth be told) says that if that car isn't outbraking and out-g'ing the R, it's right there with it, AND it has torque. I'm not going to Nationals (this year), but I think G Stock is going to be VERY interesting!
| Gary (gg) | 08-11-2001 03:00 PM |
I know Fauth beat Sapp last year but this year Sapp is preregistered in a 01 330Ci. I think Sapp is the one to look out for in GS this year.
| adhowe70 | 08-12-2001 01:33 AM |
I talked to Sapp last weekend when he was in Portland to do a Speedvision World Challenge race (he won the Touring race.) He said that he may not make it to Topeka. He also said that the car he would be driving is new. As in he hasn't really given the car a good run yet. And probably won't until he makes it to Topeka.
Sapp is very talented, but I think the learning curve is too steep for him at Nationals. A la Paul Eklund at Bremerton.
I know what Paul did to his WRX (but I'm sworn to secrecy) and I'm going to try to get him to do it to my RS over the winter. Or maybe something better. Paul's setup isn't that magical. And remember, Paul only got 2 clean runs all weekend. The 2 that counted. Paul is what's magical about his car.
Sapp is very talented, but I think the learning curve is too steep for him at Nationals. A la Paul Eklund at Bremerton.
I know what Paul did to his WRX (but I'm sworn to secrecy) and I'm going to try to get him to do it to my RS over the winter. Or maybe something better. Paul's setup isn't that magical. And remember, Paul only got 2 clean runs all weekend. The 2 that counted. Paul is what's magical about his car.
| WRXMaybe | 08-12-2001 02:06 AM |
[Paul is what's magical about his car. [/B][/QUOTE] <---This is usually the case.. I could use some of that magic!
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