| zoomfactor | 07-14-2005 11:24 AM |
Attn: Group N Rally Guys
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Since I don't recognize all of your "tags" can one of the resident Group N guys PM me for a discreet discussion, please? :D
Sincere appreciation for your time...
John D
Sincere appreciation for your time...
John D
| Porsche914boxer4 | 07-14-2005 11:50 AM |
Want to cheat or something? haha
PGT guy here
PGT guy here
| zoomfactor | 07-14-2005 01:34 PM |
Nah...just want some EM feedback;)
| JC_595 | 07-14-2005 01:40 PM |
hehehe - that's what I was thinking too... ;)
| Porsche914boxer4 | 07-14-2005 02:09 PM |
It's freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee hook it up!
I think EM changes in PGT are a TERRIBLE idea though.
I think EM changes in PGT are a TERRIBLE idea though.
| zoomfactor | 07-14-2005 02:30 PM |
[QUOTE]I think EM changes in PGT are a TERRIBLE idea though.[/QUOTE]
I saw some heated discussions on the Rally-America boards...
I saw some heated discussions on the Rally-America boards...
| Porsche914boxer4 | 07-14-2005 02:35 PM |
Talk about an unfair advantage for turbo cars. Now they will potentially have triple the HP of their NA brothers. Sucks.
| RB5 Clone | 07-14-2005 03:16 PM |
[QUOTE=Porsche914boxer4]Talk about an unfair advantage for turbo cars. Now they will potentially have triple the HP of their NA brothers. Sucks.[/QUOTE]
...so go race in NASA, where they have a normally aspirated Open class. Serious spankage for NA Scoobs
Dave G
...so go race in NASA, where they have a normally aspirated Open class. Serious spankage for NA Scoobs
Dave G
| Chromer | 07-14-2005 03:25 PM |
[QUOTE=Porsche914boxer4]Talk about an unfair advantage for turbo cars. Now they will potentially have triple the HP of their NA brothers. Sucks.[/QUOTE]
What GpN cars are N/A?
Maybe you were referring to P/PGT, in which case you theoretically could still remap your ECU (fuel delivery only), though I'm not sure how much that would gain you without more air to go with it. Anyway, the turbo cars are still breathing though a soda straw. I like Mike Hurst's thought of a fully built N/A 2.5L in a GC chassis in Open class. If you could get it to both live and make power north of 8000rpm, it could be a good bet.
What GpN cars are N/A?
Maybe you were referring to P/PGT, in which case you theoretically could still remap your ECU (fuel delivery only), though I'm not sure how much that would gain you without more air to go with it. Anyway, the turbo cars are still breathing though a soda straw. I like Mike Hurst's thought of a fully built N/A 2.5L in a GC chassis in Open class. If you could get it to both live and make power north of 8000rpm, it could be a good bet.
| Porsche914boxer4 | 07-14-2005 04:23 PM |
I'm talking about PGT. Sucking through a straw or not, there's still a crazy differential between Turboed and NA.
| John Vanos | 07-14-2005 04:41 PM |
Lachute Subaru who has Pat's old car were trying to sell it a while ago, IIRC they claimed 250 hp and 300 ft/lbs in their ad for the car in pgt (or p4 here) trim. That is an insane difference from the 165hp 162 ftlbs that I have in the rallycar. Yes we weigh a few hundred lbs less and have better gearing but they DO have a big power advantage and they are faster than RS's with the same driver. Ah well
| anders8 | 07-14-2005 04:43 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone]...so go race in NASA, where they have a normally aspirated Open class. Serious spankage for NA Scoobs[/QUOTE]
Hooray Prototype 2! I love this class. :)
Anders
Hooray Prototype 2! I love this class. :)
Anders
| Porsche914boxer4 | 07-14-2005 05:31 PM |
[QUOTE=John Vanos]Lachute Subaru who has Pat's old car were trying to sell it a while ago, IIRC they claimed 250 hp and 300 ft/lbs in their ad for the car in pgt (or p4 here) trim. That is an insane difference from the 165hp 162 ftlbs that I have in the rallycar. Yes we weigh a few hundred lbs less and have better gearing but they DO have a big power advantage and they are faster than RS's with the same driver. Ah well[/QUOTE]
This is really where durability of the RS's shines vs the complicated turbo motors....it's an attrition class really.
This is really where durability of the RS's shines vs the complicated turbo motors....it's an attrition class really.
| M. Hurst | 07-14-2005 05:33 PM |
1. Any rule restricting ECU programming is un-enforceable.
2. Requiring stock ECUs greatly favors the later model cars with "flash progammable" capability.
3. Current R-A rules have been made very inclusive in order to accomodate pre OBDII vehicles, and re-programming is no longer limited to only fuel...that didn't make sense anyway.
4. No matter what you do with an ECU, it's not magic, you can only optimize the amount of air flowing through the restrictor. Triple the power of a NA car? 450hp through a 32mm restrictor? :huh:
6. No matter what we do (short of requiring a really small restrictor, or banning forced induction), the NA sube is at a disadvantage to a WRX, when running in the same class...unless there's ice.
7. If you can drive (like Randy), you can still have success against more powerful turbo cars, with or without your own class (personally I think they should have their own class).
2. Requiring stock ECUs greatly favors the later model cars with "flash progammable" capability.
3. Current R-A rules have been made very inclusive in order to accomodate pre OBDII vehicles, and re-programming is no longer limited to only fuel...that didn't make sense anyway.
4. No matter what you do with an ECU, it's not magic, you can only optimize the amount of air flowing through the restrictor. Triple the power of a NA car? 450hp through a 32mm restrictor? :huh:
6. No matter what we do (short of requiring a really small restrictor, or banning forced induction), the NA sube is at a disadvantage to a WRX, when running in the same class...unless there's ice.
7. If you can drive (like Randy), you can still have success against more powerful turbo cars, with or without your own class (personally I think they should have their own class).
| JC_595 | 07-14-2005 06:48 PM |
After doing more gravel practice in our car, I GOTTA get the EM done up by someone who knows thier stuff SOON. The stock EM with the 32mm toothpickhole leaves a small amount of curve in twisties. It sucked big time on a RX course. 2nd gear low / 3rd gear low (3500-4055-ish is useless now)
:( anything not slippy is challenging when it's tight. Hoping some EM will help.
anybody got advice on that? will 20-30 ponies help it? will EM put it there? or will I just have to drive harder?
I've got some dough & cant make Maine- so I either buy wheels/tires or EM- anybody care to lend advice on which I should do before Ojibwe?
:( anything not slippy is challenging when it's tight. Hoping some EM will help.
anybody got advice on that? will 20-30 ponies help it? will EM put it there? or will I just have to drive harder?
I've got some dough & cant make Maine- so I either buy wheels/tires or EM- anybody care to lend advice on which I should do before Ojibwe?
| WRXMaster | 07-14-2005 07:07 PM |
[QUOTE=John Vanos]Lachute Subaru who has Pat's old car were trying to sell it a while ago, IIRC they claimed 250 hp and 300 ft/lbs in their ad for the car in pgt (or p4 here) trim. That is an insane difference from the 165hp 162 ftlbs that I have in the rallycar. Yes we weigh a few hundred lbs less and have better gearing but they DO have a big power advantage and they are faster than RS's with the same driver. Ah well[/QUOTE]
You are totaly correct... The wrx's have a huge advantage over the RS in pgt... WRX is the only car that outclasses everything pgt..... Yea you can beat crappy drivers in a wrx, but once you stick someone good like moberly, fouste, verdier ... good luck beating them. I learned how much faster they were at the drag strip at oregon trail 2004. I had a perfect launch and I still got beat by 4 car lengths
You are totaly correct... The wrx's have a huge advantage over the RS in pgt... WRX is the only car that outclasses everything pgt..... Yea you can beat crappy drivers in a wrx, but once you stick someone good like moberly, fouste, verdier ... good luck beating them. I learned how much faster they were at the drag strip at oregon trail 2004. I had a perfect launch and I still got beat by 4 car lengths
| greg donovan | 07-14-2005 07:10 PM |
[QUOTE=JC_595]After doing more gravel practice in our car, I GOTTA get the EM done up by someone who knows thier stuff SOON. The stock EM with the 32mm toothpickhole leaves a small amount of curve in twisties. It sucked big time on a RX course. 2nd gear low / 3rd gear low (3500-4055-ish is useless now)
:( anything not slippy is challenging when it's tight. Hoping some EM will help.
anybody got advice on that? will 20-30 ponies help it? will EM put it there? or will I just have to drive harder?
I've got some dough & cant make Maine- so I either buy wheels/tires or EM- anybody care to lend advice on which I should do before Ojibwe?[/QUOTE]
how is your tire supply now?
Ojibwe is usually pretty easy on tires. so i say EM. the soft nature of some of our roads makes it feel like you are loosing some power.
:( anything not slippy is challenging when it's tight. Hoping some EM will help.
anybody got advice on that? will 20-30 ponies help it? will EM put it there? or will I just have to drive harder?
I've got some dough & cant make Maine- so I either buy wheels/tires or EM- anybody care to lend advice on which I should do before Ojibwe?[/QUOTE]
how is your tire supply now?
Ojibwe is usually pretty easy on tires. so i say EM. the soft nature of some of our roads makes it feel like you are loosing some power.
| JC_595 | 07-14-2005 07:29 PM |
Tires I have, wheels I dont...
-5 good wheels, +1 very bent but holds air wheel (last chance spare I guess you'd call it)
-4 Great(almost new) Michelin mediums (2R, 2L)
-4 Very good Pirelli Mediums (2R, 2L)
I really should buy wheels/tires I guess. I can make up for EM except on twisty or hilly stuff where I need grunt/torque...
-5 good wheels, +1 very bent but holds air wheel (last chance spare I guess you'd call it)
-4 Great(almost new) Michelin mediums (2R, 2L)
-4 Very good Pirelli Mediums (2R, 2L)
I really should buy wheels/tires I guess. I can make up for EM except on twisty or hilly stuff where I need grunt/torque...
| JC_595 | 07-14-2005 07:32 PM |
See, with the PGt car I have tall gearing so we end up running faster top end than the GN guys a little, it just take longer getting there. Flatter ground helps that. I havent been to MN, so I dont know the conditions, I'll have to probe JB & Doug & Mark U a little.
Ahhh... it's all semantics till I get more seat time in this car. I'll prolly opt for the wheels/tires...
wait- soft? like, sink into the dirt soft? yeah, darn it. I may need to extra power, huh? crap.
Ahhh... it's all semantics till I get more seat time in this car. I'll prolly opt for the wheels/tires...
wait- soft? like, sink into the dirt soft? yeah, darn it. I may need to extra power, huh? crap.
| greg donovan | 07-14-2005 07:50 PM |
[QUOTE=JC_595]See, with the PGt car I have tall gearing so we end up running faster top end than the GN guys a little, it just take longer getting there. Flatter ground helps that. I havent been to MN, so I dont know the conditions, I'll have to probe JB & Doug & Mark U a little.
Ahhh... it's all semantics till I get more seat time in this car. I'll prolly opt for the wheels/tires...
wait- soft? like, sink into the dirt soft? yeah, darn it. I may need to extra power, huh? crap.[/QUOTE]
it is very sandy. not much for rocks. except on a few stages. on the plus side that sand will hold alot of water before it gets too slick. but then it gets very dusty when dry. not maine dusty but pretty close.
i have driven on most of the stage roads for bannering and codriven the event once.
i remember diggins and lovell grumbling about how the surface could suck power.
see what you can get out of utecht.
Ahhh... it's all semantics till I get more seat time in this car. I'll prolly opt for the wheels/tires...
wait- soft? like, sink into the dirt soft? yeah, darn it. I may need to extra power, huh? crap.[/QUOTE]
it is very sandy. not much for rocks. except on a few stages. on the plus side that sand will hold alot of water before it gets too slick. but then it gets very dusty when dry. not maine dusty but pretty close.
i have driven on most of the stage roads for bannering and codriven the event once.
i remember diggins and lovell grumbling about how the surface could suck power.
see what you can get out of utecht.
| patr | 07-15-2005 03:32 AM |
I'm not sure if you are talking PGT or GN (for some reason, PGT got brought up, but the post says group N).
I have done EM in *a lot* of P4/PGT and GN Subarus in the USA/Canada. We may even have a "shelf map" depending on which fuel you run (although I have not updated the site for the new "street" fuels). That being said, email me, because I dont PM.
see:
[url="http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=7"]http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=7[/url]
[url="http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=8"]http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=8[/url]
[url="http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=10"]http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=10[/url]
FYI on the autronic page, I dont have it listed but I have SM4 plug and play legal for JDM v7 and v8 Group N as well. 1 left. Of course it works for open as well.
p.s Mike Hurst do you have an email, I tried calling you the other day.
p.p.s I used to drive an RS in PGT and believe it or not, back in the day before the WRX it was the Talons that kicked the RS. Even without the WRX, the RS still sucked against Talons with EM AND NO RESTRICTOR (geez, you think you have it bad now ?!?) Now the WRX kicks the Talons. And before that it was the 323. And before that is was the... you get the idea. The RS is a fine platform. If you run events in an RS you have a decent chance of winning the championship, so i don't see the issue here. But that isn't the point of this thread. EM was always free, it was only recently that "new" PGT people interpreted it as not free.
-Pat
I have done EM in *a lot* of P4/PGT and GN Subarus in the USA/Canada. We may even have a "shelf map" depending on which fuel you run (although I have not updated the site for the new "street" fuels). That being said, email me, because I dont PM.
see:
[url="http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=7"]http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=7[/url]
[url="http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=8"]http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=8[/url]
[url="http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=10"]http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php?module=CMpro&func=viewpage&pageid=10[/url]
FYI on the autronic page, I dont have it listed but I have SM4 plug and play legal for JDM v7 and v8 Group N as well. 1 left. Of course it works for open as well.
p.s Mike Hurst do you have an email, I tried calling you the other day.
p.p.s I used to drive an RS in PGT and believe it or not, back in the day before the WRX it was the Talons that kicked the RS. Even without the WRX, the RS still sucked against Talons with EM AND NO RESTRICTOR (geez, you think you have it bad now ?!?) Now the WRX kicks the Talons. And before that it was the 323. And before that is was the... you get the idea. The RS is a fine platform. If you run events in an RS you have a decent chance of winning the championship, so i don't see the issue here. But that isn't the point of this thread. EM was always free, it was only recently that "new" PGT people interpreted it as not free.
-Pat
| M. Hurst | 07-15-2005 08:28 AM |
p.s Mike Hurst do you have an email, I tried calling you the other day.
best way is PM via R-A forums, or shop phone 317,549,0361 (Tune Tech-Indianapolis)
best way is PM via R-A forums, or shop phone 317,549,0361 (Tune Tech-Indianapolis)
| zoomfactor | 07-15-2005 10:07 AM |
Thanks for all the responses
| rallynutdon | 07-15-2005 02:04 PM |
[QUOTE=JC_595]Tires I have, wheels I dont...
-5 good wheels, +1 very bent but holds air wheel (last chance spare I guess you'd call it)
-4 Great(almost new) Michelin mediums (2R, 2L)
-4 Very good Pirelli Mediums (2R, 2L)
I really should buy wheels/tires I guess. I can make up for EM except on twisty or hilly stuff where I need grunt/torque...[/QUOTE]
What are you running for wheels? Run stock Subaru junkyard alloy wheels! Cheap and hold up well.
-5 good wheels, +1 very bent but holds air wheel (last chance spare I guess you'd call it)
-4 Great(almost new) Michelin mediums (2R, 2L)
-4 Very good Pirelli Mediums (2R, 2L)
I really should buy wheels/tires I guess. I can make up for EM except on twisty or hilly stuff where I need grunt/torque...[/QUOTE]
What are you running for wheels? Run stock Subaru junkyard alloy wheels! Cheap and hold up well.
| Porsche914boxer4 | 07-15-2005 02:40 PM |
Thanks for the insight pat, always a pleasure. I'm hopeful my RS (ex-AVSport GC8) will do well in the class. (or put a 2.2 L in there and run Production???........hmmmm)
| JC_595 | 07-15-2005 03:54 PM |
We run Team Dynamic Pro Rally 1's They are about $160/ea USD shipped to my door.
That's about 70% what Compomotives or Speedlines cost and they seem to be about 80-90% as strong (so far).
Subaru steelies (or any for that matter) would unfortunately not hold up to some of the conditions we throw at em with a 3100# car at speed. Maybe for Sno*Drift or some short smooth stage legs on select rallies...
That's about 70% what Compomotives or Speedlines cost and they seem to be about 80-90% as strong (so far).
Subaru steelies (or any for that matter) would unfortunately not hold up to some of the conditions we throw at em with a 3100# car at speed. Maybe for Sno*Drift or some short smooth stage legs on select rallies...
| anders8 | 07-15-2005 03:58 PM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon] Run stock Subaru junkyard [b]alloy[/b] wheels![/QUOTE][QUOTE=JC_595]Subaru [b]steelies[/b] (or any for that matter) would unfortunately not hold up to some of the conditions we throw at em with a 3100# car at speed.[/QUOTE]
I think there was a misread somewhere...
Anders
I think there was a misread somewhere...
Anders
| JC_595 | 07-15-2005 04:17 PM |
Yup- my bad! :D
steel no = alloy
:lol:
oops
steel no = alloy
:lol:
oops
| randy zimmer | 07-15-2005 09:41 PM |
Gee John, you are such a drama queen, like this sport is impossible or something.
[IMG]http://www.motorsport.com/photos/prorally/2002/stpr/prorally-2002-stpr-sr-0207.jpg[/IMG]
Legacy wheels work OK for Don and me.
rz
[IMG]http://www.motorsport.com/photos/prorally/2002/stpr/prorally-2002-stpr-sr-0207.jpg[/IMG]
Legacy wheels work OK for Don and me.
rz
| JC_595 | 07-16-2005 09:38 PM |
Legacy wheels are dandy! And alloy!
I misundstood. :) I had steelies in my head. drama drama drama.
:lol:
I gotta get back in the car. Too much talk, not enough drivin..
I misundstood. :) I had steelies in my head. drama drama drama.
:lol:
I gotta get back in the car. Too much talk, not enough drivin..
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