| phooka | 09-05-2001 09:44 AM |
Autocrossing.
I'm about to autocross my WRX for the first time. What SCCA class does this car fall into anyway? Anybody else autocrossing these things, how we are they holding in their class anyway?
dale
dale
| jmott | 09-05-2001 09:52 AM |
if your stock you run in G-STOCK for now. thats going to change next year though.
In houston, a WRX won the divisional.
at the national level they havent fared well. but that may just be due to the car being so new...
In houston, a WRX won the divisional.
at the national level they havent fared well. but that may just be due to the car being so new...
| orbit03 | 09-05-2001 10:41 AM |
I haven't autocrossed in about two years (been busy rallying! :) ). I ran an autocross in my WRX a couple of weeks ago to see what it could do and to have a little fun. Anyway, I finished second in GS (0.1sec behind one of the club's most experienced drivers in a VR-6 Corrado w/ R-compounds, I was stock all around) and 7th or 8th (can't remember) out of 50 cars. It was a REALLY tight course and I was in first for the whole run (can you say 'instant boost' :) ). I really liked the way the car felt. To me, it felt really tossable. Like everyone says, the stock tires do suck.
Take yours out and have a little fun. :)
Take yours out and have a little fun. :)
| Dussander | 09-05-2001 11:57 AM |
I've been to 3 events and I haven't fared very well (3rd in last 2 events). But I'm blaming the driver, not the car. ;) I hope to get serious next year.
| Narcisse91 | 09-05-2001 12:04 PM |
I had mine in an autocrossing school a week after I got it... great chance to learn the limits of the car before you try anything stupid on the street.
Anyway, at the end, the person running the event was reading off cars, classes, and times. When he got to mine, he said something like "... in a WRX, which is... G stock... G stock? They put that car in G stock? Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because that'll probably change."
Anyway, at the end, the person running the event was reading off cars, classes, and times. When he got to mine, he said something like "... in a WRX, which is... G stock... G stock? They put that car in G stock? Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because that'll probably change."
| jds | 09-05-2001 02:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Narcisse91 [/i]
[B]I had mine in an autocrossing school a week after I got it... great chance to learn the limits of the car before you try anything stupid on the street.
Anyway, at the end, the person running the event was reading off cars, classes, and times. When he got to mine, he said something like "... in a WRX, which is... G stock... G stock? They put that car in G stock? Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because that'll probably change." [/B][/QUOTE]
Starting January 1, 2002, the WRX (and ITR) moves to D-stock.
-Joe
[B]I had mine in an autocrossing school a week after I got it... great chance to learn the limits of the car before you try anything stupid on the street.
Anyway, at the end, the person running the event was reading off cars, classes, and times. When he got to mine, he said something like "... in a WRX, which is... G stock... G stock? They put that car in G stock? Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because that'll probably change." [/B][/QUOTE]
Starting January 1, 2002, the WRX (and ITR) moves to D-stock.
-Joe
| 10th Warrior | 09-05-2001 02:34 PM |
that's right, GS is all mine next year. Bruhahaha. oh, wait, i don't have a neon ACR. crap.
| OldRacer | 09-06-2001 02:26 PM |
Interesting question, and some interesting replies....
Ran my wagon a few weeks ago for a first checkout (stock, 'cept for the STi exhaust, which is legal for GS, and the STi short-throw shift linkage- which is NOT, but....nobody asked);
-was second of 4 Rex Wagons (all on those awful RE 92s); 9th of 18 in class
-the fastest of us was 5 seconds off the winning pace (Toyota)
-course was pretty open
-think we were loosing the most time in the two sweeping end turns- MAJOR understeer
-car felt best in the slalom, and relatively high-speed offset gates (top-end of 2nd gear)
Have to say I was pretty rusty; hadn't driven competitively in 25 years; lots of auto-Xing & road racing back when. Car only had a couple of thousand miles on it- still getting the feel of it.
Conclusions?
Biggest potential for improving times lies w/ the driver; the car has a lot going for it.
SCCA was nice to do the "mutual support" deal with Subaru, promoting the WRX, but has done no favors in classing.....
The stock tires are the biggest weakness, followed, I think, by the heavy dose of built-in understeer.
So, here's how I'm approaching:
Have a set of 17x7 rims coming, w/ Bridgestone PP SO-3s in 225/45/17;
Installing a Cusco adjustable rear sway bar.
Those mods (either one) move it to E Street Prepared. Now, SP classes allow a lot of additional mods- engine and susppension, so w/ only this, expect to be toward the bottom of the heap, BUT, expect to have a much more responsive, lless.....handicapped car. Then, probably won't get it installed 'till spring, though, plan on adding piggy-back Unichip for some more get-up and go. Do a few events in that configuration, get the rust out of the driver, and decide where to make the next upgrade....
Just a few thoughts. Hopefully we can share experience across the country on how the Rex fares in various regions, and the tricks that seem to help most....
BTW, anybody got a starting point tire pressure recommendation for my new tire/rim setup??
Len
Ran my wagon a few weeks ago for a first checkout (stock, 'cept for the STi exhaust, which is legal for GS, and the STi short-throw shift linkage- which is NOT, but....nobody asked);
-was second of 4 Rex Wagons (all on those awful RE 92s); 9th of 18 in class
-the fastest of us was 5 seconds off the winning pace (Toyota)
-course was pretty open
-think we were loosing the most time in the two sweeping end turns- MAJOR understeer
-car felt best in the slalom, and relatively high-speed offset gates (top-end of 2nd gear)
Have to say I was pretty rusty; hadn't driven competitively in 25 years; lots of auto-Xing & road racing back when. Car only had a couple of thousand miles on it- still getting the feel of it.
Conclusions?
Biggest potential for improving times lies w/ the driver; the car has a lot going for it.
SCCA was nice to do the "mutual support" deal with Subaru, promoting the WRX, but has done no favors in classing.....
The stock tires are the biggest weakness, followed, I think, by the heavy dose of built-in understeer.
So, here's how I'm approaching:
Have a set of 17x7 rims coming, w/ Bridgestone PP SO-3s in 225/45/17;
Installing a Cusco adjustable rear sway bar.
Those mods (either one) move it to E Street Prepared. Now, SP classes allow a lot of additional mods- engine and susppension, so w/ only this, expect to be toward the bottom of the heap, BUT, expect to have a much more responsive, lless.....handicapped car. Then, probably won't get it installed 'till spring, though, plan on adding piggy-back Unichip for some more get-up and go. Do a few events in that configuration, get the rust out of the driver, and decide where to make the next upgrade....
Just a few thoughts. Hopefully we can share experience across the country on how the Rex fares in various regions, and the tricks that seem to help most....
BTW, anybody got a starting point tire pressure recommendation for my new tire/rim setup??
Len
| 10th Warrior | 09-06-2001 03:12 PM |
my experience was that when i put on race tires and got the pressures sorted out, alot of the understeer disappeared. there was still some, though, espeacially if i over drove the car.
| ChrisW | 09-06-2001 03:34 PM |
OldRacer,
I set my tires up with 40-45 in front, 45-50 in the rear. I like the higher rear presures to induce more oversteer.
I don't know about your region, but I ran my stock WRX with 17" rims S-02 tires in ESP and finished second, 4 tenths of a second behind the leading driver.
If we can get rid of the understeer, the WRX will be a very potent competitor, driver not withstanding.
I set my tires up with 40-45 in front, 45-50 in the rear. I like the higher rear presures to induce more oversteer.
I don't know about your region, but I ran my stock WRX with 17" rims S-02 tires in ESP and finished second, 4 tenths of a second behind the leading driver.
If we can get rid of the understeer, the WRX will be a very potent competitor, driver not withstanding.
| AWMIII | 09-06-2001 07:09 PM |
I autox a wrx fairly seriously. I'd be in topeka if i was really serious. If you are not running against Type-Rs, you are not getting a fair view of G stock. I am fortunate, and sorta cursed, that almost every event I attend (one or two a week), has at least one national level guy in GS. Some events have 3 or 4. On really fast courses, the WRX can hang with the type R or even beat it. ON very very tight courses it can hang. On the courses that fall in the middle, the type-r seems to have an advantage. I run a prodrive cat back, kyb adjustables, Kumho victo racers and an autocross alignment. Last week. I drove very well on saturday and was fsd (fastest scoobie of the day) against some very tough competion including some national level Type-Rs. I was 4 in my class but 15th in pax out of like 128 cars. I beat several people in PAX who are expected to do well in topeka. On sunday I felt I drove well, but I was not competitive. I was 6th in GS out of maybe 15 and 29th out of like 130. It was a tough crowd. I think 4 of the 5 people ahead of me in GS are headed to nationals. The wrx can hang, but it alfully tough to beat the type-rs. The Type R has been developed over the pasr few years and some of the drivers have been driving them since they came out. I think the scoobie needs a few years to realize the potential. The new class will be almost the same on a national level. It is just a different letter with different cars at the bottom of the heap. The cars at the top won't change much. Maybe through in an ACR or two, but on national courses the acr will be too slow. Last weekend I was faster than the fastest drag wrx in the east. Talk about whoopass. Good Luck and have fun.
| OldRacer | 09-07-2001 02:12 PM |
ChrisW- thanks for the pressure suggestion
AWMIII, really appreciate the info/perspective; course layout and who/what's running in your region are going to have big impact on outcome. Suspect your analysis of Rex in D Stock next year is right on, but, as more people have more time to play and sort things out.......we'll see.
Do think, going ahead, it'll be nice for all of us to maintain some sense of how the rex is doing in varoius regions; so, let's all be sure to post after events.
AWMIII, really appreciate the info/perspective; course layout and who/what's running in your region are going to have big impact on outcome. Suspect your analysis of Rex in D Stock next year is right on, but, as more people have more time to play and sort things out.......we'll see.
Do think, going ahead, it'll be nice for all of us to maintain some sense of how the rex is doing in varoius regions; so, let's all be sure to post after events.
| TyrannoSullyRex | 09-07-2001 03:38 PM |
AWMIII (or anyone), what kind of pressures are you running on the Kuhmos, shock setup (harder front/rear), etc. ?
| ChrisW | 09-07-2001 05:14 PM |
[QUOTE]If you are not running against Type-Rs, you are not getting a fair view of G stock.[/QUOTE]
HA! sheeeat, if your not running against an IS300 with a national level driver, your not getting a fair view of G stock.
Man, we have this pair of drivers who win GS every time with their IS300. On a typical run they will be a few seconds faster than the leading Type-R
HA! sheeeat, if your not running against an IS300 with a national level driver, your not getting a fair view of G stock.
Man, we have this pair of drivers who win GS every time with their IS300. On a typical run they will be a few seconds faster than the leading Type-R
| AWMIII | 09-07-2001 10:17 PM |
We will know next week about the is300 won't we. ;) It may have torque, but it is no type R. A really top level driver can win in almost any car against second tier drivers. Look at the results for the national in Ayer Mass where some guy (a evolution instructor) borrowed an audi TT and won GS for the event against some tough competition. The best in our sport are so much better than everyone else that it is not fair. I think they could win against us mortals on flat tires with a blown motor.
| remarcable | 09-10-2001 01:47 AM |
I was under the impression that higher pressure in the FRONT and lower pressure in the rear will generate more oversteer.
At least that holds true for my car on the street, I run 36f 34r and it is definatly easier to get the ass end around on dirt than with equal front/back pressure.
The theory is that the front tires will have more grip with more pressure in them.
I read it off a little blurb on cobb tuning's web site awhile back, and it has worked for me.
At least that holds true for my car on the street, I run 36f 34r and it is definatly easier to get the ass end around on dirt than with equal front/back pressure.
The theory is that the front tires will have more grip with more pressure in them.
I read it off a little blurb on cobb tuning's web site awhile back, and it has worked for me.
| LUME | 09-10-2001 08:00 AM |
Um, the reverse is true:
Less pressure, more grip (with loss of sidewall stiffness). You want to run the lowest possible pressure without scrubbing your sidewall. This will give you maximum grip. The rest is just tuning.
--Roy
Less pressure, more grip (with loss of sidewall stiffness). You want to run the lowest possible pressure without scrubbing your sidewall. This will give you maximum grip. The rest is just tuning.
--Roy
| Radio Flyer | 09-10-2001 10:59 AM |
<i>Lume</i>: I beg to differ and agree with <i>Remarcable</i> on this. At normal street tire pressures, less pressure at the rear than at the front will provide a bit more oversteer as there will be less traction in back.
The only way I can see the 'less pressure, more grip' holding true would be driving in the sand (more area in contact with the sand), or having your fronts so overinflated that the resultant bulge is preventing the tread from making full contact...
If you listen to the Nascar (*gasp!! :eek: *) commentary, they will let pressure out of tires (okay, install a tire with lesser pressure) to loosen up (less traction) that corner of the car.
- Eric
'98 2.5 GT Wagon - [url=http://members.i-club.com/ViewMemberPics.cfm?MemberID=143]Pics[/url] - [url=http://www.jeneric.ws/eric/radioflyer.htm]Page[/url] -
ICQ #: 9292601
The only way I can see the 'less pressure, more grip' holding true would be driving in the sand (more area in contact with the sand), or having your fronts so overinflated that the resultant bulge is preventing the tread from making full contact...
If you listen to the Nascar (*gasp!! :eek: *) commentary, they will let pressure out of tires (okay, install a tire with lesser pressure) to loosen up (less traction) that corner of the car.
- Eric
'98 2.5 GT Wagon - [url=http://members.i-club.com/ViewMemberPics.cfm?MemberID=143]Pics[/url] - [url=http://www.jeneric.ws/eric/radioflyer.htm]Page[/url] -
ICQ #: 9292601
| Sergeant_V | 09-10-2001 11:02 AM |
Yup, what Lume said. More pressure reduces the contact patch between the tire and pavement. Definitely more pressure in the rear tires to facilitate oversteer.
-Abel
-Abel
| AWMIII | 09-10-2001 01:40 PM |
Lume is correct
| gdog | 09-10-2001 02:34 PM |
Two events ago, I had 46f/44r with moderate understeer. Yesterday, I changed to 39f/41r and the car was almost neutral, with some understeer remaining-but I was able to get the back of the car to do what I wanted. However, major front tire roll-over, I presume because of the lower pressure.
Mind you, this was my 3rd autox, so I can't say how much was me/inflation ratios.
Only 1 wrx in Arizona Region, and I'm not quite competitive yet (16th, 4th, 3rd in my class). Medium course yesterday; integra-r beat me by 2 seconds, but worst of all, a golf gsl beat us both.
That was my last event with re-92s...
geren
Mind you, this was my 3rd autox, so I can't say how much was me/inflation ratios.
Only 1 wrx in Arizona Region, and I'm not quite competitive yet (16th, 4th, 3rd in my class). Medium course yesterday; integra-r beat me by 2 seconds, but worst of all, a golf gsl beat us both.
That was my last event with re-92s...
geren
| ChrisDP | 09-10-2001 07:28 PM |
Here's my opinion:
Take any given tire on the vehicle and adjust the pressure. There will be a pressure at which optimum grip occurs. Anything higher or lower will result in less grip at that end. For my WRX, I started with 45psi front cold, and ended up bleeding 2 pounds out at the front end to use more of the tire once the pressures had climbed up a bit. This gave the car better front end grip since this moved the front tires closer to their optimal grip. For the rear end, I added 3 pounds of pressure. Monitoring tire roll, this rolled the tire less, thus decreasing their effective contact patch. This loosened the car up enough for me to rotate it more quickly in lower speed corners. This gave the car a tendency to slide the rear end around on high-speed sweepers but my Integra was set up to handle the same way so I'm used to it. I can say that the car worked fairly well with that setup for the stock tires. I could run less pressure and perhaps get more grip out of them, but I saw no reason to damage the stock tires, since I will be running these on the street and not for autox/track after I get my race tires. Now, I could've dropped pressure out of the rear and found oversteer that way. However, I would have rolled the tires onto the sidewalls and torn them up substantially more. No reason for me to do that. I've done a LOT of pressure testing on my Integra, I found that 45f/42 rear was a good baseline for most courses before tuning the chassis balance with pressure and shock adjustments. With that car on Kumho 712s, I found that lower pressures tended to make the rotations more difficult to catch, while higher pressures made them smoother and more predictable. The lower pressures would tend to grip, and then break away suddenly, while higher pressures allowed the tires to start sliding more progressively. That's my humble opinion on the matter...
~Chris
Take any given tire on the vehicle and adjust the pressure. There will be a pressure at which optimum grip occurs. Anything higher or lower will result in less grip at that end. For my WRX, I started with 45psi front cold, and ended up bleeding 2 pounds out at the front end to use more of the tire once the pressures had climbed up a bit. This gave the car better front end grip since this moved the front tires closer to their optimal grip. For the rear end, I added 3 pounds of pressure. Monitoring tire roll, this rolled the tire less, thus decreasing their effective contact patch. This loosened the car up enough for me to rotate it more quickly in lower speed corners. This gave the car a tendency to slide the rear end around on high-speed sweepers but my Integra was set up to handle the same way so I'm used to it. I can say that the car worked fairly well with that setup for the stock tires. I could run less pressure and perhaps get more grip out of them, but I saw no reason to damage the stock tires, since I will be running these on the street and not for autox/track after I get my race tires. Now, I could've dropped pressure out of the rear and found oversteer that way. However, I would have rolled the tires onto the sidewalls and torn them up substantially more. No reason for me to do that. I've done a LOT of pressure testing on my Integra, I found that 45f/42 rear was a good baseline for most courses before tuning the chassis balance with pressure and shock adjustments. With that car on Kumho 712s, I found that lower pressures tended to make the rotations more difficult to catch, while higher pressures made them smoother and more predictable. The lower pressures would tend to grip, and then break away suddenly, while higher pressures allowed the tires to start sliding more progressively. That's my humble opinion on the matter...
~Chris
| WRXhauls | 09-10-2001 09:09 PM |
As a rookie this year, I am always fighting being overly abrupt with my inputs. In any case, even at over 45psi, the soft sidewalls of the RE92s would tend to roll on the fronts while the rears were fine as low as 27psi. The combination of high front and low rear made the rear come around much more for me.
While the contact patch sizing makes sense - I would also think that the sidewall also acts like a suspension spring. Softer allows more compliance and that end rotates.
While the contact patch sizing makes sense - I would also think that the sidewall also acts like a suspension spring. Softer allows more compliance and that end rotates.
| ChrisDP | 09-10-2001 11:02 PM |
Technically... increasing spring rate at one end makes that end slide more, since it increases the rate at which weight transfer is applied to the tires. Bumping up the rear spring rate would make the car oversteer. Thus, one can alter the balance of their car by changing the spring rates of the car proportionately, but that's not legal in Stock. :)
Just remember... "slow in, fast out" "go slow in the slow parts and fast in the fast parts" "smooth is fast" and "be one with the car." At least, it'll make you faster until you'll learn exactly when/where you need to be a little abrupt to make the car do exactly what you need it to.
Just remember... "slow in, fast out" "go slow in the slow parts and fast in the fast parts" "smooth is fast" and "be one with the car." At least, it'll make you faster until you'll learn exactly when/where you need to be a little abrupt to make the car do exactly what you need it to.
| ChrisW | 09-11-2001 09:33 PM |
This silly..... We have two argument positions here. I know that what chrisDP said is close to the truth.
When your manipulating the tire presures your changing the contact patch of the tire, and thus the amount of grip.
Get the book "[URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879380713/qid=1000258383/sr=2-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/107-5748431-6009309]Tune to Win[/URL] " by Carrol Smith
I learned alot about car setup in this book.
you can also check out this website [url]http://www.autocross.com[/url]
When your manipulating the tire presures your changing the contact patch of the tire, and thus the amount of grip.
Get the book "[URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879380713/qid=1000258383/sr=2-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/107-5748431-6009309]Tune to Win[/URL] " by Carrol Smith
I learned alot about car setup in this book.
you can also check out this website [url]http://www.autocross.com[/url]
| K-WRX | 09-12-2001 12:50 PM |
Autocrossing the WRX
I'm also new to auto-Xing and have a question of you more experienced drivers: How do you handle tight hairpins?
My last (and first) autox featured a 180 hairpin (around a single cone) coming after a slalom with an entry speed of maybe 30 mph or so. With the slippery RE-92's, I think it would have been possible to carry enough speed to do a handbrake, or late trailbraking turn to swing the rear end around the pylon, grab 1st gear, and go. I ended up doing what everyone else did, carry the entry way wide so that you could make the turn without hitting cones on the exit (and trying to find 1st gear somewhere along the way).
I haven't tried any handbrake turns, because I know that people caution against doing handbrake turns in AWD cars for fear of tearing up the center diff - does this apply to the Subaru viscous coupling as well?
Thanks for any advice? Andrew
My last (and first) autox featured a 180 hairpin (around a single cone) coming after a slalom with an entry speed of maybe 30 mph or so. With the slippery RE-92's, I think it would have been possible to carry enough speed to do a handbrake, or late trailbraking turn to swing the rear end around the pylon, grab 1st gear, and go. I ended up doing what everyone else did, carry the entry way wide so that you could make the turn without hitting cones on the exit (and trying to find 1st gear somewhere along the way).
I haven't tried any handbrake turns, because I know that people caution against doing handbrake turns in AWD cars for fear of tearing up the center diff - does this apply to the Subaru viscous coupling as well?
Thanks for any advice? Andrew
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