| FastPorsche | 01-24-2002 02:05 PM |
LOEB Looses MonteCarlo
Loeb loses Monte Carlo Rally win as Citroen drops appeal
Tommi Makinen becomes most successful rally driver ever
Sebastien Loeb has lost his Monte win
Citroen has decided to drop the appeal against Sebastien Loeb's two-minute penalty on last weekend's Monte Carlo Rally. The decision means that Loeb is automatically demoted from first to second place, and that Tommi Makinen is now the event winner.
Makinen's 24th victory has made him the most successful rally driver of all time, drawing clear of Colin McRae, Carlos Sainz, and Juha Kankkunen, all of whom have 23 victories.
Citroen incurred the penalty by changing the wheels of Loeb's Xsara WRC in a service area where tyre changes were not allowed. The manufacturer persuaded the Monte Carlo Rally stewards to suspend the penalty, pending an appeal to world motorsport's governing body, the FIA.
However, they have now decided not to pursue the appeal, a decision that will be confirmed by Citroen tomorrow (Friday). Citroen Sport boss Guy Frequelin admitted at the time that his team had made "a mistake" in changing Loeb's wheels at the end of leg one.
However, he argued that the two-minute penalty imposed by the stewards was too severe, because Loeb had gained no competitive advantage.
Historically, the FIA Court of Appeal has increased, rather than reduced, penalties imposed by event stewards. This is a possible reason for the team withdrawing their appeal, but nobody from Citroen was available for comment.
Revised driver points after round one of the World Rally Championship (subject to FIA confirmation)
1 Tommi Makinen (Subaru) 10
2 Sebastien Loeb (Citroen) 6
3 Carlos Sainz (Ford) 4
4 Colin McRae (Ford) 3
5 Marcus Gronholm (Peugeot) 2
6 Petter Solberg (Subaru)
Tommi Makinen becomes most successful rally driver ever
Sebastien Loeb has lost his Monte win
Citroen has decided to drop the appeal against Sebastien Loeb's two-minute penalty on last weekend's Monte Carlo Rally. The decision means that Loeb is automatically demoted from first to second place, and that Tommi Makinen is now the event winner.
Makinen's 24th victory has made him the most successful rally driver of all time, drawing clear of Colin McRae, Carlos Sainz, and Juha Kankkunen, all of whom have 23 victories.
Citroen incurred the penalty by changing the wheels of Loeb's Xsara WRC in a service area where tyre changes were not allowed. The manufacturer persuaded the Monte Carlo Rally stewards to suspend the penalty, pending an appeal to world motorsport's governing body, the FIA.
However, they have now decided not to pursue the appeal, a decision that will be confirmed by Citroen tomorrow (Friday). Citroen Sport boss Guy Frequelin admitted at the time that his team had made "a mistake" in changing Loeb's wheels at the end of leg one.
However, he argued that the two-minute penalty imposed by the stewards was too severe, because Loeb had gained no competitive advantage.
Historically, the FIA Court of Appeal has increased, rather than reduced, penalties imposed by event stewards. This is a possible reason for the team withdrawing their appeal, but nobody from Citroen was available for comment.
Revised driver points after round one of the World Rally Championship (subject to FIA confirmation)
1 Tommi Makinen (Subaru) 10
2 Sebastien Loeb (Citroen) 6
3 Carlos Sainz (Ford) 4
4 Colin McRae (Ford) 3
5 Marcus Gronholm (Peugeot) 2
6 Petter Solberg (Subaru)
| Coati | 01-24-2002 02:12 PM |
:eek:
Whoah, they must have been worried they were going to face a DQ like J Felstead said if they took it any further.
Pity Tommi didn't have the pleasure of the top podium spot at the end of the rally like he should have.
Whoah, they must have been worried they were going to face a DQ like J Felstead said if they took it any further.
Pity Tommi didn't have the pleasure of the top podium spot at the end of the rally like he should have.
| wrx182 | 01-24-2002 02:12 PM |
sweet:D
| Big C | 01-24-2002 02:37 PM |
The shady thing about them changing the tires is that if there was no reason or competitive advantage behind changing them then why did they do it? I hope the tires that were confiscated point to something illegal and cause the French teams to be more carefully monitored. After Delecour's mountain biking, Delecours accusations against Panizzi, Puras's pacenote, and now Loeb/Citroen's tire "incidents" the track record isn't good for the French teams. Must be a conincidence that Peugeot and Citroen are related and have all the accuations of illegal behavior........:rolleyes:
| JamesC | 01-24-2002 03:13 PM |
Pretty clear they either wanted the Photo Op win or thought they could think their way out of the situation. As to be expected I guess.
Citroën withdrawing their appeal automatically frees them from any further penalty incurred, like DQ? Too bad for Sainz I guess..
JamesC
Citroën withdrawing their appeal automatically frees them from any further penalty incurred, like DQ? Too bad for Sainz I guess..
JamesC
| johnfelstead | 01-24-2002 03:23 PM |
Well that was pretty predictable. Rather a cynical act by Citroen that will have upset a lot of people in the FIA/WRC.
If the oportunity arises they will get there payback for this, that photo on the Monte podium was worth Millions in PR.
Will we ever know if the tyres were illegal or not? I hope they carry out the tests and say either way. If there is silence (dont even know if its oficial they were impounded) then what do you think?
If the oportunity arises they will get there payback for this, that photo on the Monte podium was worth Millions in PR.
Will we ever know if the tyres were illegal or not? I hope they carry out the tests and say either way. If there is silence (dont even know if its oficial they were impounded) then what do you think?
| ToJo | 01-24-2002 03:24 PM |
[QUOTE]However, he argued that the two-minute penalty imposed by the stewards was too severe, because Loeb had gained no competitive advantage.[/QUOTE]
How can they say that they gained no competitive advantage? Tommi/Subaru backed off a little both in driving style and in car tuning when they heard about the penalty.
Loeb is a really good driver, I'm sorry that his team had to ruin his chances of a legitimate win
How can they say that they gained no competitive advantage? Tommi/Subaru backed off a little both in driving style and in car tuning when they heard about the penalty.
Loeb is a really good driver, I'm sorry that his team had to ruin his chances of a legitimate win
| Jeremy | 01-24-2002 03:26 PM |
Congrats
Official congratulations are in order for our man, Tommi Makinen.
What a way to start a new season.
Jeremy
What a way to start a new season.
Jeremy
| Jaxx | 01-24-2002 04:03 PM |
john:
what would constitute as an illegal tire?
do they have to be production based ?
-j
what would constitute as an illegal tire?
do they have to be production based ?
-j
| johnfelstead | 01-24-2002 04:14 PM |
No, they arent production based but they have to conform to certain construction, materials and dimensions rules. The wheels also have to conform to construction, materials and dimension rules. The gasses used to inflate them do also.
It's pretty unlikely they are illegal but you have to ask the question why they did what they did. The rules are very simple, i dont buy the fact they just made a mistake, they have been running the WRC for 2 years now!
It's pretty unlikely they are illegal but you have to ask the question why they did what they did. The rules are very simple, i dont buy the fact they just made a mistake, they have been running the WRC for 2 years now!
| jblaine | 01-24-2002 09:15 PM |
Sounds to me like a steward got sweet-talked enough that he buckled into allowing it to be suspended, which means they're more to blame here if you ask me.
Citroen: "But it was a mistake, please please please let's suspend this until blah blah"
Steward: "Sorry, rules are rules. You're in the World Rally Championship, not Johnny's Backyard Rally-X. I bet you won't do it a second time now. Live and learn. The penalty stands, and if you want to appeal it to get it _REMOVED_, fine."
It shouldn't have gone any further than that once it was determined that they had changed tires when they weren't allowed to.
What a crock. Sketchy on FIA's part. Money talks.
Citroen: "But it was a mistake, please please please let's suspend this until blah blah"
Steward: "Sorry, rules are rules. You're in the World Rally Championship, not Johnny's Backyard Rally-X. I bet you won't do it a second time now. Live and learn. The penalty stands, and if you want to appeal it to get it _REMOVED_, fine."
It shouldn't have gone any further than that once it was determined that they had changed tires when they weren't allowed to.
What a crock. Sketchy on FIA's part. Money talks.
| johnfelstead | 01-24-2002 09:23 PM |
Errrrmmmmm, NO!
It is the right of any team to protest a penalty to the FIA.
The steward did his job and aplied the penalty, the team were then entitled to protest that. The steward cant do anything about a manufacturer protesting his call until the tribunal.
It is the right of any team to protest a penalty to the FIA.
The steward did his job and aplied the penalty, the team were then entitled to protest that. The steward cant do anything about a manufacturer protesting his call until the tribunal.
| jblaine | 01-24-2002 09:26 PM |
But the penalty doesn't apply until after the appeal (or it's dropped)?
That seems... backwards.
They leave themselves wide open for exactly what Citroen did. Nice loophole work, Citroen. If that's the way the rules go, they're a smart team.
"The manufacturer persuaded the Monte Carlo Rally stewards to suspend the penalty, pending an appeal to world motorsport's governing body, the FIA."
That's pretty easy to read differently than how you describe the situation in your message above. So, there was no persuasion at all really ... unless it was supposed to apply then be appealed to be removed and they persuaded someone to reverse that logic.
That seems... backwards.
They leave themselves wide open for exactly what Citroen did. Nice loophole work, Citroen. If that's the way the rules go, they're a smart team.
"The manufacturer persuaded the Monte Carlo Rally stewards to suspend the penalty, pending an appeal to world motorsport's governing body, the FIA."
That's pretty easy to read differently than how you describe the situation in your message above. So, there was no persuasion at all really ... unless it was supposed to apply then be appealed to be removed and they persuaded someone to reverse that logic.
| Rattler | 01-25-2002 01:21 AM |
I wondered about the deal last year half way through the season when they would let the leaders pick their starting postions. They are rules to abide by though.
Way to go Tommi!!
I did like the letter somebody sent to Autoweek last week. Robbie Gordon should run rallies. He is crazy enough. But he should start out in SCCA or the FIA series they are going to run over here. He is one of those guys I wouldn't want to see at my side for sure. He would draw a lot more NA fans to the sport.
Way to go Tommi!!
I did like the letter somebody sent to Autoweek last week. Robbie Gordon should run rallies. He is crazy enough. But he should start out in SCCA or the FIA series they are going to run over here. He is one of those guys I wouldn't want to see at my side for sure. He would draw a lot more NA fans to the sport.
| PURE EPI | 01-25-2002 08:52 AM |
GRRRRRRRRRRRR
is anyone else VERY pissed at Citroen right now??
I feel like they essentially made a mockery of the sport just to get pics of Leob on the podium.... I think Tommi is justifiably pissed...:mad: :mad:
I feel like they essentially made a mockery of the sport just to get pics of Leob on the podium.... I think Tommi is justifiably pissed...:mad: :mad:
| Subie Gal | 01-25-2002 09:45 AM |
Tommi isnt mad...
he knew he won right away...... like he said.. that was the 'happiest day of [his] life...'
he's the winningest driver evaaaaa!!! :)
go Tommi! go Tommi!
really really happy for him!!!!! :)
this is not a suprise... we knew citro wouldnt win the appeal, do did they... it's all a bunch of games i suppose... but in the long run, they lost, Subaru wins... ;)
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
he knew he won right away...... like he said.. that was the 'happiest day of [his] life...'
he's the winningest driver evaaaaa!!! :)
go Tommi! go Tommi!
really really happy for him!!!!! :)
this is not a suprise... we knew citro wouldnt win the appeal, do did they... it's all a bunch of games i suppose... but in the long run, they lost, Subaru wins... ;)
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Turtle | 01-25-2002 09:56 AM |
Re: GRRRRRRRRRRRR
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PURE EPI [/i]
[B]is anyone else VERY pissed at Citroen right now??
I feel like they essentially made a mockery of the sport just to get pics of Leob on the podium.... I think Tommi is justifiably pissed...:mad: :mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. Citroen admitted they made a mistake. They should have accepted the penalty.
But the FIA is as much to blame? Stick to a descissions and don't pussyfoot around!! If an appeal is won THEN overturn.
I should add: Big congrats to Makinen and Subaru!!
[B]is anyone else VERY pissed at Citroen right now??
I feel like they essentially made a mockery of the sport just to get pics of Leob on the podium.... I think Tommi is justifiably pissed...:mad: :mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. Citroen admitted they made a mistake. They should have accepted the penalty.
But the FIA is as much to blame? Stick to a descissions and don't pussyfoot around!! If an appeal is won THEN overturn.
I should add: Big congrats to Makinen and Subaru!!
| brainrally | 01-25-2002 10:27 AM |
[QUOTE]I wondered about the deal last year half way through the season when they would let the leaders pick their starting postions. [/QUOTE]
That was a particular rally (was it New Zealand?), and that rule was established before the rally began. The drivers really liked it. The point of that was to allow drivers to go all out without having to slow down to get the position they wanted the next day. It was a gravel rally, so the front-runners end up sweeping away the gravel making it easier for the rest to go faster.
Nothing fishy there.
As far as appealing a penalty, I think that is something that is usually done after a rally event is over. The penalty being applied, then suspended during the rally was unusual. By the sound of it, the penalty itself was unusual.
Tommi wasn't the only driver miffed about this. But I don't think Tommi is angry anymore. Like SubieGal said, he's the winner. And he's set new records (four consecutive Monte Carlo wins, most rallies won). He's probably feeling on top of the world right now. And he's very confident with the car.
That was a particular rally (was it New Zealand?), and that rule was established before the rally began. The drivers really liked it. The point of that was to allow drivers to go all out without having to slow down to get the position they wanted the next day. It was a gravel rally, so the front-runners end up sweeping away the gravel making it easier for the rest to go faster.
Nothing fishy there.
As far as appealing a penalty, I think that is something that is usually done after a rally event is over. The penalty being applied, then suspended during the rally was unusual. By the sound of it, the penalty itself was unusual.
Tommi wasn't the only driver miffed about this. But I don't think Tommi is angry anymore. Like SubieGal said, he's the winner. And he's set new records (four consecutive Monte Carlo wins, most rallies won). He's probably feeling on top of the world right now. And he's very confident with the car.
| brainrally | 01-25-2002 10:43 AM |
The only thing that disappointed me with the whole thing is that the battle for first was getting really interesting. Was Tommi going to overtake Loeb, or would Loeb be able to fend him off? Tommi was ready to charge hard after him. The suspense would've been thrilling. But then Citroen soured the rally with their shenanigans.
| Ryouga | 01-25-2002 12:28 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brainrally [/i]
[B]That was a particular rally (was it New Zealand?), and that rule was established before the rally began. The drivers really liked it.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure it was the Australia rally, and while SOME of the drivers liked it, others (like the Hyundai drivers) did not.
[B]That was a particular rally (was it New Zealand?), and that rule was established before the rally began. The drivers really liked it.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure it was the Australia rally, and while SOME of the drivers liked it, others (like the Hyundai drivers) did not.
| johnfelstead | 01-25-2002 12:53 PM |
That was for australia.
There is a new system in place for 2002.
Day one you go in championship position, so in sweden Makinen will be first on the road followed by loeb, sainz, McRae etc
Day two and three they run the top 15 from the end of the previous day in reverse so if Makinen is leading he will be 15th on the road.
There is a new system in place for 2002.
Day one you go in championship position, so in sweden Makinen will be first on the road followed by loeb, sainz, McRae etc
Day two and three they run the top 15 from the end of the previous day in reverse so if Makinen is leading he will be 15th on the road.
| ColinL | 01-25-2002 02:18 PM |
that running order sounds fair to me.
| Star*Child | 01-25-2002 02:25 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brainrally [/i]
[B]...But then Citroen soured the rally with their shenanigans. [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: I always think of that South Park episode where they go to the carnival and call 'shenanigans' when I see/hear that word. :lol:
[B]...But then Citroen soured the rally with their shenanigans. [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: I always think of that South Park episode where they go to the carnival and call 'shenanigans' when I see/hear that word. :lol:
| Jeremy | 01-25-2002 02:27 PM |
Running the first 15 in reverse order is an improvement, but I'd like to see the drivers choose their running order. That way, for gravel rallies, they could run after the slow cars swept the course. And for a dusty rally, the front runners could choose to run first.
That way, being first would ALWAYS be an advantage, so you'd see drivers pushing 100% to make that first place after the first day. And pushing hard to maintain that.
Now, for dusty rallys we'll see drivers that don't really push hard because being first or second is the difference between running 14th or 15th on the day (ie not really an advantage).
Anyway, that's my thought. The FIA has done a good job with the new rule because we'd always see people run slow in the first two days for gravel rallys, and they've eliminated that problem.
Jeremy
That way, being first would ALWAYS be an advantage, so you'd see drivers pushing 100% to make that first place after the first day. And pushing hard to maintain that.
Now, for dusty rallys we'll see drivers that don't really push hard because being first or second is the difference between running 14th or 15th on the day (ie not really an advantage).
Anyway, that's my thought. The FIA has done a good job with the new rule because we'd always see people run slow in the first two days for gravel rallys, and they've eliminated that problem.
Jeremy
| Imprezard | 01-25-2002 03:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ryouga [/i]
[B]
I'm pretty sure it was the Australia rally, and while SOME of the drivers liked it, others (like the Hyundai drivers) did not. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, Hyundai Team liked it. Well, at least that was the first time they could lead a rally start :D
[B]
I'm pretty sure it was the Australia rally, and while SOME of the drivers liked it, others (like the Hyundai drivers) did not. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, Hyundai Team liked it. Well, at least that was the first time they could lead a rally start :D
| Imprezard | 01-25-2002 03:14 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]That was for australia.
There is a new system in place for 2002.
Day one you go in championship position, so in sweden Makinen will be first on the road followed by loeb, sainz, McRae etc
Day two and three they run the top 15 from the end of the previous day in reverse so if Makinen is leading he will be 15th on the road. [/B][/QUOTE]
Humm... running the first car in the first day would be a big disadvantage. And if Tommi finished in low position, he'll be one of the leading cars again the next day...
[B]That was for australia.
There is a new system in place for 2002.
Day one you go in championship position, so in sweden Makinen will be first on the road followed by loeb, sainz, McRae etc
Day two and three they run the top 15 from the end of the previous day in reverse so if Makinen is leading he will be 15th on the road. [/B][/QUOTE]
Humm... running the first car in the first day would be a big disadvantage. And if Tommi finished in low position, he'll be one of the leading cars again the next day...
| johnfelstead | 01-25-2002 03:55 PM |
The only event i can see this being a problem is Australia, the rest are fine with the new system.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if come Australia they have a system where on day one they do choose their starting order and for the rest of the rally it goes as per the current regs.
Dust isnt an issue with 2 minute start gaps on any rally, it only becomes an issue when one of the cars hits a problem and is caught mid stage. I think for TV etc. this is the best system too, kind of builds the tension. Dont forget there are plans to run the last few stages Live on TV, if posible they will do this in the later part of 2002.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if come Australia they have a system where on day one they do choose their starting order and for the rest of the rally it goes as per the current regs.
Dust isnt an issue with 2 minute start gaps on any rally, it only becomes an issue when one of the cars hits a problem and is caught mid stage. I think for TV etc. this is the best system too, kind of builds the tension. Dont forget there are plans to run the last few stages Live on TV, if posible they will do this in the later part of 2002.
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