| funsti | 07-28-2005 02:31 PM |
I'm installing my bar tonight and running the car at divisionals this weekend. Yea, 32mm is a lot of bar. Scott Farmer already has it on his STi and at the last AutoX he said the car was turning in nicely.
I've heard varying estimations on how big of a diameter a solid bar would need to be to equal the stiffness of this 32mm hollow bar. I've heard people guess between 27 and 30mm. Joel do you know the approximate answer to that question?
Whiteline has an adjustable FSB model #X3006 that adjusts between 27 (which is the actual diameter right?) and 29mm. I wonder if this is a similar performing bar. It probably weighs more..
I've heard varying estimations on how big of a diameter a solid bar would need to be to equal the stiffness of this 32mm hollow bar. I've heard people guess between 27 and 30mm. Joel do you know the approximate answer to that question?
Whiteline has an adjustable FSB model #X3006 that adjusts between 27 (which is the actual diameter right?) and 29mm. I wonder if this is a similar performing bar. It probably weighs more..
| AUTOwrXER | 07-28-2005 02:35 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]32mm seems like a LOT of front bar. Has anyone used this bar in wet conditions? I'm looking to try a bigger front bar, but I'm a little leary about not being able to adjust it down.[/QUOTE]
I have, and I think it's best to disconnect all sway bars in the wet, personally.
I have, and I think it's best to disconnect all sway bars in the wet, personally.
| AUTOwrXER | 07-28-2005 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]I'm installing my bar tonight and running the car at divisionals this weekend. Yea, 32mm is a lot of bar. Scott Farmer already has it on his STi and at the last AutoX he said the car was turning in nicely.
I've heard varying estimations on how big of a diameter a solid bar would need to be to equal the stiffness of this 32mm hollow bar. I've heard people guess between 27 and 30mm. Joel do you know the approximate answer to that question?
Whiteline has an adjustable FSB model #X3006 that adjusts between 27 (which is the actual diameter right?) and 29mm. I wonder if this is a similar performing bar. It probably weighs more..[/QUOTE]
It's a fairly simple calculation, but all my notes are at my desk at home. Even with the 3/16" wall thickness it is MUCH more bar than a solid 27mm. I think it would take a solid bar of more than 30mm to equte to the hollow 31.75mm, if memory serves me correctly.
And yes, a solid bar would weigh a whole lot more than this one, which is about 1 lb. more than stock.
I've heard varying estimations on how big of a diameter a solid bar would need to be to equal the stiffness of this 32mm hollow bar. I've heard people guess between 27 and 30mm. Joel do you know the approximate answer to that question?
Whiteline has an adjustable FSB model #X3006 that adjusts between 27 (which is the actual diameter right?) and 29mm. I wonder if this is a similar performing bar. It probably weighs more..[/QUOTE]
It's a fairly simple calculation, but all my notes are at my desk at home. Even with the 3/16" wall thickness it is MUCH more bar than a solid 27mm. I think it would take a solid bar of more than 30mm to equte to the hollow 31.75mm, if memory serves me correctly.
And yes, a solid bar would weigh a whole lot more than this one, which is about 1 lb. more than stock.
| sciolist | 07-28-2005 02:48 PM |
Thanks, Joel. Your results certainly speak for themselves.
My guess is that you have pretty stiff springs and an adjustable rear bar. I have 11/10 springs and the Cobb rear bar set to soft. This whole concept of the big front bar is a bit counter-intuitive for me, but there does seem to be a concensus among the faster Impreza folks.
My guess is that you have pretty stiff springs and an adjustable rear bar. I have 11/10 springs and the Cobb rear bar set to soft. This whole concept of the big front bar is a bit counter-intuitive for me, but there does seem to be a concensus among the faster Impreza folks.
| funsti | 07-28-2005 04:10 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]It's a fairly simple calculation, but all my notes are at my desk at home. Even with the 3/16" wall thickness it is MUCH more bar than a solid 27mm. I think it would take a solid bar of more than 30mm to equte to the hollow 31.75mm, if memory serves me correctly.
And yes, a solid bar would weigh a whole lot more than this one, which is about 1 lb. more than stock.[/QUOTE]
:D :D :D
Thanks for the info man. I didn't get a chance to meet you at the last divisionals but I did see your car up close and talk to Tom Pulliam a little bit.
I'll see ya this weekend!
And yes, a solid bar would weigh a whole lot more than this one, which is about 1 lb. more than stock.[/QUOTE]
:D :D :D
Thanks for the info man. I didn't get a chance to meet you at the last divisionals but I did see your car up close and talk to Tom Pulliam a little bit.
I'll see ya this weekend!
| AUTOwrXER | 07-28-2005 05:28 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]Thanks, Joel. Your results certainly speak for themselves.
My guess is that you have pretty stiff springs and an adjustable rear bar. I have 11/10 springs and the Cobb rear bar set to soft. This whole concept of the big front bar is a bit counter-intuitive for me, but there does seem to be a concensus among the faster Impreza folks.[/QUOTE]
I'm currently running 700# front, 550# rear. Strano front bar, no rear bar.
My guess is that you have pretty stiff springs and an adjustable rear bar. I have 11/10 springs and the Cobb rear bar set to soft. This whole concept of the big front bar is a bit counter-intuitive for me, but there does seem to be a concensus among the faster Impreza folks.[/QUOTE]
I'm currently running 700# front, 550# rear. Strano front bar, no rear bar.
| AUTOwrXER | 07-28-2005 05:28 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]:D :D :D
Thanks for the info man. I didn't get a chance to meet you at the last divisionals but I did see your car up close and talk to Tom Pulliam a little bit.
I'll see ya this weekend![/QUOTE]
I look forward to meeting you. What class are you running?
Thanks for the info man. I didn't get a chance to meet you at the last divisionals but I did see your car up close and talk to Tom Pulliam a little bit.
I'll see ya this weekend![/QUOTE]
I look forward to meeting you. What class are you running?
| afpdl | 07-28-2005 05:33 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I'm currently running 700# front, 550# rear. Strano front bar, no rear bar.[/QUOTE]
Whoa, what was the reason for the big change? IIRC you were running about double the front rate in the rear.
Whoa, what was the reason for the big change? IIRC you were running about double the front rate in the rear.
| sciolist | 07-28-2005 05:43 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I'm currently running 700# front, 550# rear. Strano front bar, no rear bar.[/QUOTE]
Okay, now curiosity is really getting the better of me. I guess I'll have to try the Strano bar.
It's too bad you're so far away. I would be very interested to see your car run. Guess I'll have to do some travelling next season.
Thanks for the help!
Okay, now curiosity is really getting the better of me. I guess I'll have to try the Strano bar.
It's too bad you're so far away. I would be very interested to see your car run. Guess I'll have to do some travelling next season.
Thanks for the help!
| [email�protected] | 07-28-2005 07:28 PM |
I now have my new bar installed and had the toe set at +.08 front and +.10 rear feels great. I will run Sunday in Birmingham to see how it works on track. Thanks for all of your advice.
Bob Langham
Bob Langham
| funsti | 07-28-2005 07:58 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I look forward to meeting you. What class are you running?[/QUOTE]
STU. I was there at the last event with my friend Chris co-driving (who won, I completely blew the second day). Chris will be with me this weekend as well.
STU. I was there at the last event with my friend Chris co-driving (who won, I completely blew the second day). Chris will be with me this weekend as well.
| funsti | 07-28-2005 08:02 PM |
So, just to be 100% clear. I really really have to remove the sub-frame (That massive U-shaped piece of metal with quite a few bolts and push-pins holding various things to it) in order to install this bar?
I wish the instructions went into a little bit more detail. I don't see any other way of getting the bar in myself though. I just thought I'd ask to be safe.
Is there anything important to note or problems I may have with removing the sub-frame?
I wish the instructions went into a little bit more detail. I don't see any other way of getting the bar in myself though. I just thought I'd ask to be safe.
Is there anything important to note or problems I may have with removing the sub-frame?
| solo2wrx | 07-28-2005 08:25 PM |
Yes you do have to remove the sub-frame to get to the sway bar. I installed the Strano bar on Scott's car last weekend. I also installed the 26mm Whiteline bar on my car. There is no other way unfortunately. Just make sure you keep track of where all the bolts came off of so you don't screw up where each one goes. Other than that it is very easy to install. Just drop the sub-frame, pull out the old bar and end-links, install new endlink connections to control arms, new sway bar goes in and then connect with the new endlinks. If you have any other questions drop me an email at [email][email�protected][/email]
~Keith
~Keith
| AUTOwrXER | 07-29-2005 06:52 AM |
[QUOTE=afpdl]Whoa, what was the reason for the big change? IIRC you were running about double the front rate in the rear.[/QUOTE]
It would take way to long to explain here, but I did have about an hour long conversation with Gerry Terranova in your region. He said he's helping some of the local guys setup their Subies, so I'm sure he'd be willing to rehash it all for you. Gerry is also working with Cobb on a monster SM STi :devil:
It would take way to long to explain here, but I did have about an hour long conversation with Gerry Terranova in your region. He said he's helping some of the local guys setup their Subies, so I'm sure he'd be willing to rehash it all for you. Gerry is also working with Cobb on a monster SM STi :devil:
| AUTOwrXER | 07-29-2005 06:57 AM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]It's a fairly simple calculation, but all my notes are at my desk at home. Even with the 3/16" wall thickness it is MUCH more bar than a solid 27mm. I think it would take a solid bar of more than 30mm to equte to the hollow 31.75mm, if memory serves me correctly.
And yes, a solid bar would weigh a whole lot more than this one, which is about 1 lb. more than stock.[/QUOTE]
OK so I broke out my notes this morning. The Strano bar is 45% stiffer than a solid 27mm. The solid equivalent bar would be 29.64mm.
And yes, a solid bar would weigh a whole lot more than this one, which is about 1 lb. more than stock.[/QUOTE]
OK so I broke out my notes this morning. The Strano bar is 45% stiffer than a solid 27mm. The solid equivalent bar would be 29.64mm.
| D_REX | 07-29-2005 07:32 AM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]It would take way to long to explain here, but I did have about an hour long conversation with Gerry Terranova in your region. He said he's helping some of the local guys setup their Subies, so I'm sure he'd be willing to rehash it all for you. Gerry is also working with Cobb on a monster SM STi :devil:[/QUOTE]
IIRC Gerry Terranova is not in the Houston region, he's in Dallas.
IIRC Gerry Terranova is not in the Houston region, he's in Dallas.
| BlueSTI4Me | 07-29-2005 09:32 AM |
[QUOTE=funsti]So, just to be 100% clear. I really really have to remove the sub-frame (That massive U-shaped piece of metal with quite a few bolts and push-pins holding various things to it) in order to install this bar?
I wish the instructions went into a little bit more detail. I don't see any other way of getting the bar in myself though. I just thought I'd ask to be safe.
Is there anything important to note or problems I may have with removing the sub-frame?[/QUOTE]
What instructions did you get? Can you scan and post them somewhere?
I assisted Smitty with his bar a few weeks ago and can add more definition to the instructions as we had ZERO, just the bar. Since I had installed a few Whiteline bars thought the install would be the same. NOT!
The bar is really tight in the center crossmember and must be "finessed" to be installed (read large prybar). What I'm curious about is the endlink instructions provided. Once you know that the other is pretty easy. We found it easy to install the endlinks with the suspension loaded, so ramps are required even if you have a hoist.
Keep the subframe bolts in the proper location as there is one(each side) that should be torqued to 72 lbs ft if I remember, Subie recommends that you install a new bolt, but as our install was late night, the recommended replacement bolt got reused.
Blue
I wish the instructions went into a little bit more detail. I don't see any other way of getting the bar in myself though. I just thought I'd ask to be safe.
Is there anything important to note or problems I may have with removing the sub-frame?[/QUOTE]
What instructions did you get? Can you scan and post them somewhere?
I assisted Smitty with his bar a few weeks ago and can add more definition to the instructions as we had ZERO, just the bar. Since I had installed a few Whiteline bars thought the install would be the same. NOT!
The bar is really tight in the center crossmember and must be "finessed" to be installed (read large prybar). What I'm curious about is the endlink instructions provided. Once you know that the other is pretty easy. We found it easy to install the endlinks with the suspension loaded, so ramps are required even if you have a hoist.
Keep the subframe bolts in the proper location as there is one(each side) that should be torqued to 72 lbs ft if I remember, Subie recommends that you install a new bolt, but as our install was late night, the recommended replacement bolt got reused.
Blue
| Got Pink? | 07-29-2005 09:50 AM |
Since we have to drop the subframe to install the bar is it worth it to get stiffer subframe bushings at the same time? I know that they are legal in STU/ESP/SM as long as they are not metal. Anyone know if this would be any benefit or not?
| AUTOwrXER | 07-29-2005 11:30 AM |
[QUOTE=BlueSTI4Me]What instructions did you get? Can you scan and post them somewhere?
I assisted Smitty with his bar a few weeks ago and can add more definition to the instructions as we had ZERO, just the bar. Since I had installed a few Whiteline bars thought the install would be the same. NOT!
The bar is really tight in the center crossmember and must be "finessed" to be installed (read large prybar). What I'm curious about is the endlink instructions provided. Once you know that the other is pretty easy. We found it easy to install the endlinks with the suspension loaded, so ramps are required even if you have a hoist.
Keep the subframe bolts in the proper location as there is one(each side) that should be torqued to 72 lbs ft if I remember, Subie recommends that you install a new bolt, but as our install was late night, the recommended replacement bolt got reused.
Blue[/QUOTE]
I know Dan at Addco is working on installation instructions because he asked me for pictures. Why is it a problem getting around the center crossmember? Just drop it, insert bar, reattach...
I assisted Smitty with his bar a few weeks ago and can add more definition to the instructions as we had ZERO, just the bar. Since I had installed a few Whiteline bars thought the install would be the same. NOT!
The bar is really tight in the center crossmember and must be "finessed" to be installed (read large prybar). What I'm curious about is the endlink instructions provided. Once you know that the other is pretty easy. We found it easy to install the endlinks with the suspension loaded, so ramps are required even if you have a hoist.
Keep the subframe bolts in the proper location as there is one(each side) that should be torqued to 72 lbs ft if I remember, Subie recommends that you install a new bolt, but as our install was late night, the recommended replacement bolt got reused.
Blue[/QUOTE]
I know Dan at Addco is working on installation instructions because he asked me for pictures. Why is it a problem getting around the center crossmember? Just drop it, insert bar, reattach...
| AUTOwrXER | 07-29-2005 11:31 AM |
[QUOTE=Got Pink?]Since we have to drop the subframe to install the bar is it worth it to get stiffer subframe bushings at the same time? I know that they are legal in STU/ESP/SM as long as they are not metal. Anyone know if this would be any benefit or not?[/QUOTE]
What bushing are you talking about? The big U-shaped subframe bolts up without bushings...
What bushing are you talking about? The big U-shaped subframe bolts up without bushings...
| Got Pink? | 07-29-2005 12:23 PM |
I haven't taken it apart so i didn't know if there were bushings or not but I assumed there might be since the rules say you are allowed to change them.
Joel, Have you upgraded to group N engine, tranny or diff mounts? I am thinking about them but want to bother only if they actually make a difference.
So far the only bushing that I think I need to do for sure is the Whiteline Caster gaining offset bushings KCA375 i think.
Joel, Have you upgraded to group N engine, tranny or diff mounts? I am thinking about them but want to bother only if they actually make a difference.
So far the only bushing that I think I need to do for sure is the Whiteline Caster gaining offset bushings KCA375 i think.
| AUTOwrXER | 07-29-2005 01:01 PM |
I've done all the tranny bushings (crossmember, kartboy, TIC, etc.) and the diff bushings. I haven't done the engine mounts because I believe the 2005 STi has the group N bushing already. The sever duty mounts are uber expensive and I doubt if it would make a difference anyway. The tranny stuff was very noticable. The rear diff was done along with a ton of other stuff so it's hard to tell what impact that alone had...
| Corn-Picker | 07-29-2005 01:37 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I have, and I think it's best to disconnect all sway bars in the wet, personally.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I'll bite, why disconnect the swaybars in the wet? I understand the reason for a bigger swaybar -- less camber loss and therefore a better contact patch, so why would you want to disconnect the swaybar?
In the wet is the resistance of the wheel to roll over upon turn in too great, such that it breaks the tires loose, and causes understeer?
Ok, I'll bite, why disconnect the swaybars in the wet? I understand the reason for a bigger swaybar -- less camber loss and therefore a better contact patch, so why would you want to disconnect the swaybar?
In the wet is the resistance of the wheel to roll over upon turn in too great, such that it breaks the tires loose, and causes understeer?
| AUTOwrXER | 07-29-2005 02:53 PM |
In the wet grip goes down. When grip goes down you want less roll stiffness, less camber, etc. Disconnecting the sway bars is a very common first step in setting up a car for the wet.
| AUTOwrXER | 07-29-2005 03:08 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]It would take way to long to explain here, but I did have about an hour long conversation with Gerry Terranova in your region. He said he's helping some of the local guys setup their Subies, so I'm sure he'd be willing to rehash it all for you. Gerry is also working with Cobb on a monster SM STi :devil:[/QUOTE]
Just so you don't think I'm being a d*ck, I'd love to talk about it in person. It just takes a long time to type everything out. Basically I was able to get all the info I needed to calculate suspension frequencies, and that led me in a whole new direction in terms of the spring rates. With the current spring rates I have a front suspension frequency of 2.68 Hz and a rear frequency of 2.97 Hz. I was using 3.0 Hz as an upper limit for autocross, which is probably better suited to Heartland Park than Forbes Field. After trying a number of different spring rates on two different Subarus, I've come to the conclusion that the more common setup with higher rear spring rates creates a pitching problem (due to a rear frequency much, much higher than the front frequency).
Just so you don't think I'm being a d*ck, I'd love to talk about it in person. It just takes a long time to type everything out. Basically I was able to get all the info I needed to calculate suspension frequencies, and that led me in a whole new direction in terms of the spring rates. With the current spring rates I have a front suspension frequency of 2.68 Hz and a rear frequency of 2.97 Hz. I was using 3.0 Hz as an upper limit for autocross, which is probably better suited to Heartland Park than Forbes Field. After trying a number of different spring rates on two different Subarus, I've come to the conclusion that the more common setup with higher rear spring rates creates a pitching problem (due to a rear frequency much, much higher than the front frequency).
| afpdl | 07-29-2005 03:20 PM |
Its alright, I have no idea what any of what you just typed means anyway ;). Ive only tried 3 spring set ups on my STU car (7k/5k, 9k/7k and currently 7k/9k) and all I can really say about them is the car still wont rotate like I would like it to. I havent jumped into the world of actually calculating stuff before trying it yet.
| BlueSTI4Me | 07-29-2005 05:36 PM |
Autowxer wrote>>>>>I know Dan at Addco is working on installation instructions because he asked me for pictures. Why is it a problem getting around the center crossmember? Just drop it, insert bar, reattach...<<<<
Maybe we did it wrong, we installed the bar in the bushings and mounted with the bushing retainers so the ends and the center of the bar floated. We had to "finesse the bar into the center crossmember. Once the endlinks were attached the bar had about 1/8" clearance to the front of the center crossmember pocket with the suspension loaded or unloaded. I'll try and link the pictures I took.
Blue
Maybe we did it wrong, we installed the bar in the bushings and mounted with the bushing retainers so the ends and the center of the bar floated. We had to "finesse the bar into the center crossmember. Once the endlinks were attached the bar had about 1/8" clearance to the front of the center crossmember pocket with the suspension loaded or unloaded. I'll try and link the pictures I took.
Blue
| Virgil | 07-29-2005 08:39 PM |
I just attached the endlinks loosly(spelling) with the center of the bar hanging down. Then I persuaded the bar up so that the retainers lined up and I started the nuts and bolts for the retainers then used a cordless impact to get it to tight down. Then I went back and hit the endlinks real good.
| BlueSTI4Me | 07-29-2005 10:17 PM |
[QUOTE=Virgil]I just attached the endlinks loosly(spelling) with the center of the bar hanging down. Then I persuaded the bar up so that the retainers lined up and I started the nuts and bolts for the retainers then used a cordless impact to get it to tight down. Then I went back and hit the endlinks real good.[/QUOTE]
Virgil,
That was the "key" I was looking for, doing the end link "cups" and links loose and then swinging the bar up into the center crossmember area and installing the retainers....yessir I can see it now!
Thanks,
Blue
Virgil,
That was the "key" I was looking for, doing the end link "cups" and links loose and then swinging the bar up into the center crossmember area and installing the retainers....yessir I can see it now!
Thanks,
Blue
| funsti | 07-29-2005 11:38 PM |
Well my friend and I got the bar in last night. It really wasn't so bad of an install. I was just scared of taking the sub-frame out because I hadn't done it before.
I wish the instructions had a bit more detail in them. Two things:
I only used two washers (judging from what I saw in the picture included with the instructions) for each end-link but the hardware kit came with 4 for each.
The picture -seemed- to indicate that I should attach the endlink mounting brackets to the control arms with the long side up. We could not get the bar in with them oriented that way. No worries, we changed to the other orientation and it went in fine. I just wish the instructions had indicated specifically what the proper orientation was for the brackets.
It is immediately obvious how much more front end grip I have. I'm at the hotel right now ready for divisionals starting tomorrow.
I wish the instructions had a bit more detail in them. Two things:
I only used two washers (judging from what I saw in the picture included with the instructions) for each end-link but the hardware kit came with 4 for each.
The picture -seemed- to indicate that I should attach the endlink mounting brackets to the control arms with the long side up. We could not get the bar in with them oriented that way. No worries, we changed to the other orientation and it went in fine. I just wish the instructions had indicated specifically what the proper orientation was for the brackets.
It is immediately obvious how much more front end grip I have. I'm at the hotel right now ready for divisionals starting tomorrow.
| funsti | 07-30-2005 10:47 PM |
I love the bar. The car turns in (much) better now, period.
| [email�protected] | 08-01-2005 02:44 PM |
I used mine for the first time in an autocross July 31. Two weeks prior I was a distant third. This past Sunday I was 1st, and beat the two who finished ahead of me two weeks ago. It works!!!
| AUTOwrXER | 08-01-2005 06:32 PM |
Glad you guys are liking it too. It was worth the time to develop something different in this case, IMO.
| ericdc | 08-04-2005 12:52 AM |
I am wondering the impact this will make on an AS STi but on Falkens (RT615). It was mentioned that less front bar was desirable in low grip situations. Does street tires and stock class front camber (neg .9 degrees) qualify as "low grip"?
I got my bar today and am about to install it but I thought I would ask for some thoughts on the effect. My local clubs all run some variation of a street tire class (basically stock class rules with ST* tire rules) that I run in, but most of the posts here are from people with massive camber, different springs, shocks, rear bar, and really wide DOT R tires. Anyone with thoughts for a completely AS legal car on streets? I sure hope I am not going to make it worse :)
Why street tires? 100 runs and 8500 street miles on one set of tires :)
I got my bar today and am about to install it but I thought I would ask for some thoughts on the effect. My local clubs all run some variation of a street tire class (basically stock class rules with ST* tire rules) that I run in, but most of the posts here are from people with massive camber, different springs, shocks, rear bar, and really wide DOT R tires. Anyone with thoughts for a completely AS legal car on streets? I sure hope I am not going to make it worse :)
Why street tires? 100 runs and 8500 street miles on one set of tires :)
| rkevans | 08-04-2005 01:32 AM |
[QUOTE=ericdc]I am wondering the impact this will make on an AS STi but on Falkens (RT615). [/QUOTE]
My bar also arrived today. I'm on MX's and AS-legal like you, so I suppose we'll both know soon. Man, that bar just looks HUGE in my living room. :devil:
Rick
My bar also arrived today. I'm on MX's and AS-legal like you, so I suppose we'll both know soon. Man, that bar just looks HUGE in my living room. :devil:
Rick
| Got Pink? | 08-04-2005 11:48 AM |
I may be installing my bar before my coilovers get here this week and if so I will have some impressions on Monday about how it works on a basically stock STi on Kooks.
I only have a turboback exhaust, light crank pulley, and cusco camber plates on the car at this point and my kooks are a little over a half tread 245/45/17s. I would bet that for AS use with streets or without you will need to play the alignment to get to work for you and of course adjustable struts would be nice.
If you like street tires why not run STU? You can do all the things most people like to do to the car except change the boost and street tires are required and you will not wear the outside edges of your tires when you have enough negative camber.
I only have a turboback exhaust, light crank pulley, and cusco camber plates on the car at this point and my kooks are a little over a half tread 245/45/17s. I would bet that for AS use with streets or without you will need to play the alignment to get to work for you and of course adjustable struts would be nice.
If you like street tires why not run STU? You can do all the things most people like to do to the car except change the boost and street tires are required and you will not wear the outside edges of your tires when you have enough negative camber.
| ericdc | 08-04-2005 12:02 PM |
[QUOTE=Got Pink?]
If you like street tires why not run STU?[/QUOTE]
Because it is not a real class yet and not a single car has run that class among the 3 autocross clubs I run in this year. If it becomes a real class and has participation I will switch.
If you like street tires why not run STU?[/QUOTE]
Because it is not a real class yet and not a single car has run that class among the 3 autocross clubs I run in this year. If it becomes a real class and has participation I will switch.
| funsti | 08-04-2005 12:14 PM |
[QUOTE=ericdc]I am wondering the impact this will make on an AS STi but on Falkens (RT615). It was mentioned that less front bar was desirable in low grip situations. Does street tires and stock class front camber (neg .9 degrees) qualify as "low grip"?
I got my bar today and am about to install it but I thought I would ask for some thoughts on the effect. My local clubs all run some variation of a street tire class (basically stock class rules with ST* tire rules) that I run in, but most of the posts here are from people with massive camber, different springs, shocks, rear bar, and really wide DOT R tires. Anyone with thoughts for a completely AS legal car on streets? I sure hope I am not going to make it worse :)
Why street tires? 100 runs and 8500 street miles on one set of tires :)[/QUOTE]
There is no way this bar can negatively affect handling in the dry. However, as Joel said you don't want nearly as much roll stiffness when driving in the wet. You will want to disconnect the endlinks when running the wet. I am on street tires (the OE RE070's) and the car has (much) more grip with the Strano FSB. I do however have a lot more camber (and caster) than you but as I understand from reading these forums the FSB helps maintain as much negative camber as possible so I think it will be a benefit no matter how much or how little static negative camber you have. There may be such a thing as too much front bar on an STi but the Strano bar is definitely not too much.
I got my bar today and am about to install it but I thought I would ask for some thoughts on the effect. My local clubs all run some variation of a street tire class (basically stock class rules with ST* tire rules) that I run in, but most of the posts here are from people with massive camber, different springs, shocks, rear bar, and really wide DOT R tires. Anyone with thoughts for a completely AS legal car on streets? I sure hope I am not going to make it worse :)
Why street tires? 100 runs and 8500 street miles on one set of tires :)[/QUOTE]
There is no way this bar can negatively affect handling in the dry. However, as Joel said you don't want nearly as much roll stiffness when driving in the wet. You will want to disconnect the endlinks when running the wet. I am on street tires (the OE RE070's) and the car has (much) more grip with the Strano FSB. I do however have a lot more camber (and caster) than you but as I understand from reading these forums the FSB helps maintain as much negative camber as possible so I think it will be a benefit no matter how much or how little static negative camber you have. There may be such a thing as too much front bar on an STi but the Strano bar is definitely not too much.
| AUTOwrXER | 08-04-2005 01:50 PM |
That's right. In AS more than anywhere else you need the extra bar because you can't keep the car in the camber curve with heavier springs. Basically this is the one thing that you can do legally in AS to minimize camber loss with roll.
| AtomicRacer | 08-04-2005 03:28 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]I love the bar. The car turns in (much) better now, period.[/QUOTE]
What bar were you using before?
What other changes have you done?
-Paul
What bar were you using before?
What other changes have you done?
-Paul
| sil0nt | 08-04-2005 05:56 PM |
is the strano bar too much bar if i have -3degrees of static camber (cusco camber plates), the whiteline autox-legal caster bushings, and the stiffer sti pink springs?
| ericdc | 08-05-2005 01:45 AM |
I got it installed tonight. Took me awhile to figure out that the subframe that was mentioned as needing removed was that huge piece and not the small part in the center. After 15 minutes of struggling trying to find a way to get the old bar out I finally gave in and decided to unbolt the subframe. For reference it is [URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/subframe2.JPG]this piece[/URL]
I am almost 100% sure that the image in the directions has the endlink mounting brackets wrong. In the orientation the image has it the tips of the bushings do not fit inside the hole in the bracket and the bolt that connects the bracket to the suspension arm would rub the bushings. I put mine on in the opposite orientation than the photo shows.
Here are some photos:
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/correct1.JPG]Correct side view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/correct2.JPG]Correct front view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/wrong1.JPG]Wrong front view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/wrong2.JPG]Wrong side view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/wrong3.JPG]Wrong side view showing bolt clearance[/URL]
You may disagree but this is my take on it anyway.
Lastly, how tight should the end links be? The picture shows the nut maybe 1/2 inch down on the threads. Should that be enough? Sure seemed too loose at that point so I cranked down a bit more.
It makes a very noticable difference... even my wife could tell from a short circle around the block. Don't have another event for 2 weeks... I can't wait to try it out for real.
I am almost 100% sure that the image in the directions has the endlink mounting brackets wrong. In the orientation the image has it the tips of the bushings do not fit inside the hole in the bracket and the bolt that connects the bracket to the suspension arm would rub the bushings. I put mine on in the opposite orientation than the photo shows.
Here are some photos:
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/correct1.JPG]Correct side view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/correct2.JPG]Correct front view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/wrong1.JPG]Wrong front view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/wrong2.JPG]Wrong side view[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/wrong3.JPG]Wrong side view showing bolt clearance[/URL]
You may disagree but this is my take on it anyway.
Lastly, how tight should the end links be? The picture shows the nut maybe 1/2 inch down on the threads. Should that be enough? Sure seemed too loose at that point so I cranked down a bit more.
It makes a very noticable difference... even my wife could tell from a short circle around the block. Don't have another event for 2 weeks... I can't wait to try it out for real.
| BlueSTI4Me | 08-05-2005 07:08 AM |
EricDC,
I'll pull my pictures and let you know on the end link, your correct front and side view appear to be correct. There should be some compression of the rubber bushings otherwise the links will clunk.
Search this thread for earlier pictures of the endlink. That picture is what I used when we did Smitty's install.
And can you post the instruction sheet? We did not have one for Smitty's install. I can clarify the instructions based upon the notes I made.
I'll pull my pictures and let you know on the end link, your correct front and side view appear to be correct. There should be some compression of the rubber bushings otherwise the links will clunk.
Search this thread for earlier pictures of the endlink. That picture is what I used when we did Smitty's install.
And can you post the instruction sheet? We did not have one for Smitty's install. I can clarify the instructions based upon the notes I made.
| ericdc | 08-05-2005 12:12 PM |
After seeing the pictures on [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719115&page=4&pp=25[/url] I am really wondering if I tightened my endlinks down too much. What would the effect be of making them too tight/too loose? Does it even matter?
| funsti | 08-05-2005 12:13 PM |
[QUOTE=AtomicRacer]What bar were you using before?
What other changes have you done?[/QUOTE]
I was on the stock front bar. I still have my stock rear bar as well. The other changes that were already done to the car were the installation of Whiteline G4 'race' 9k/8k front/rear springs and Noltec front camber plates.
The car already handled great with just the G4 suspension and stock bars but I couldn't resist the temptation to try the FSB. I'm glad I did. It's going to take a little while to get used to to the extra front grip. It is very confidence inspiring and it led me to try going WAY too fast at my last autoX and I ran off the course :p.
In the front with my camber plates maxed out when I race I am at about -2.1 degrees camber and 7.2 degrees caster (still haven't installed the Whiteline offset control arm bushings!) and like an 1/8th inch toe out. I run zero toe all the way around when driving on the street. I think I'm going to have that tweaked a bit so that I have slight toe in for the street because now the car is a bit scary on the highway when it's raining.
What other changes have you done?[/QUOTE]
I was on the stock front bar. I still have my stock rear bar as well. The other changes that were already done to the car were the installation of Whiteline G4 'race' 9k/8k front/rear springs and Noltec front camber plates.
The car already handled great with just the G4 suspension and stock bars but I couldn't resist the temptation to try the FSB. I'm glad I did. It's going to take a little while to get used to to the extra front grip. It is very confidence inspiring and it led me to try going WAY too fast at my last autoX and I ran off the course :p.
In the front with my camber plates maxed out when I race I am at about -2.1 degrees camber and 7.2 degrees caster (still haven't installed the Whiteline offset control arm bushings!) and like an 1/8th inch toe out. I run zero toe all the way around when driving on the street. I think I'm going to have that tweaked a bit so that I have slight toe in for the street because now the car is a bit scary on the highway when it's raining.
| DrBiggly | 08-05-2005 02:04 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]...I think I'm going to have that tweaked a bit so that I have slight toe in for the street because now the car is a bit scary on the highway when it's raining.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a good idea in a lot of cases. :)
-Biggly
I think this is a good idea in a lot of cases. :)
-Biggly
| ericdc | 08-05-2005 04:54 PM |
[QUOTE=BlueSTI4Me]
And can you post the instruction sheet? We did not have one for Smitty's install. I can clarify the instructions based upon the notes I made.[/QUOTE]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/directionsphoto.jpg]Instructions photo[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/directionstext.jpg]Instructions text[/URL]
And can you post the instruction sheet? We did not have one for Smitty's install. I can clarify the instructions based upon the notes I made.[/QUOTE]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/directionsphoto.jpg]Instructions photo[/URL]
[URL=http://mercury.hsc.wvu.edu/users/eric/stranobar/directionstext.jpg]Instructions text[/URL]
| BlueSTI4Me | 08-05-2005 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE=ericdc]After seeing the pictures on [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719115&page=4&pp=25[/url] I am really wondering if I tightened my endlinks down too much. What would the effect be of making them too tight/too loose? Does it even matter?[/QUOTE]
EricDC,
Thanks for posting the instructions. Picture is a copy of the weblink pix you posted.
The bushings need to be compressed otherwise the link will clunk/rattle as the bar has some lateral movement (Smitty loosened his and they clunk). We are considering adding kart axle clamps (modified 40mm) inboard of the bar retainers to keep the bar centered (may just use hose clamps with rubber inserts).
The picture of the link is how we oriented the link buckets, but one side has a hole large enough for the tip of the bushing to rest into when the link bolt is installed.
I'll add more later when I have time.
Blue
EricDC,
Thanks for posting the instructions. Picture is a copy of the weblink pix you posted.
The bushings need to be compressed otherwise the link will clunk/rattle as the bar has some lateral movement (Smitty loosened his and they clunk). We are considering adding kart axle clamps (modified 40mm) inboard of the bar retainers to keep the bar centered (may just use hose clamps with rubber inserts).
The picture of the link is how we oriented the link buckets, but one side has a hole large enough for the tip of the bushing to rest into when the link bolt is installed.
I'll add more later when I have time.
Blue
| ericdc | 08-08-2005 01:10 PM |
No reply yet so I will post the question again :)
How tight should the end links be? The instructions picture shows the nut maybe 1/2 inch down on the threads. Should that be enough? Sure seemed too loose at that point so I cranked down a bit more. Any input from anyone?
How tight should the end links be? The instructions picture shows the nut maybe 1/2 inch down on the threads. Should that be enough? Sure seemed too loose at that point so I cranked down a bit more. Any input from anyone?
| Got Pink? | 08-08-2005 01:47 PM |
I would like to know the same thing. Mine are a little more than half an inch and still don't feel that tight.
Nate
Nate
| AUTOwrXER | 08-08-2005 02:45 PM |
I'm not aware of a specification on the endlink torque. I tightened mine down until the bushings were visibly compressed, and I've left it there since. I've checked them a few times to be sure that the nut is not backing out, but it hasn't moved. I would not recommend over-tightening them.
Joel
Joel
| BlueSTI4Me | 08-08-2005 09:06 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I'm not aware of a specification on the endlink torque. I tightened mine down until the bushings were visibly compressed, and I've left it there since. I've checked them a few times to be sure that the nut is not backing out, but it hasn't moved. I would not recommend over-tightening them.
Joel[/QUOTE]
I agree with Joel. Tighten to compress the bushings. Also, we installed the bolt so the nut would be on the bottom. If the nut loosened for some reason you would not lose the bolt.
Blue
Joel[/QUOTE]
I agree with Joel. Tighten to compress the bushings. Also, we installed the bolt so the nut would be on the bottom. If the nut loosened for some reason you would not lose the bolt.
Blue
| Got Pink? | 08-09-2005 09:25 AM |
Sounds good I also put the bolt on top nut on the bottom. It is amazing how much more responsive the car is with this bar compared to the stock one. I am installing my coilovers tonight and can't wait to get it all together and aligned for this weekend.
| Virgil | 08-09-2005 06:55 PM |
How important do you imagine the lubrication on the bushings is. i forgot to do this. I plan on doing it in the next couple of days but thought this ight be the source of my clunking . I also wondered if it would deminish the performance of the bar.
| BlueSTI4Me | 08-09-2005 11:48 PM |
[QUOTE=Virgil]How important do you imagine the lubrication on the bushings is. i forgot to do this. I plan on doing it in the next couple of days but thought this ight be the source of my clunking . I also wondered if it would deminish the performance of the bar.[/QUOTE]
Virgil,
Certainly lubrication of the center bar bushings is important, if only to allow the bar to move up and down as designed. Over time non lubricated bushings could lead to "creak" or "scrunch" type noises, most noticeable when entering or exiting drive-ways.
The clunk may be the result of lateral movement of the bar. Try tightening your end link bolts until you have visible compression of the end link bushings.
Once Smitty is back in the area, he will be installing bar clamps inboard of the center bushing clamps to see if this helps eliminate the "clunk". We do know that loosening the end link bolts causes the "clunk" to become worse.
Blue
Virgil,
Certainly lubrication of the center bar bushings is important, if only to allow the bar to move up and down as designed. Over time non lubricated bushings could lead to "creak" or "scrunch" type noises, most noticeable when entering or exiting drive-ways.
The clunk may be the result of lateral movement of the bar. Try tightening your end link bolts until you have visible compression of the end link bushings.
Once Smitty is back in the area, he will be installing bar clamps inboard of the center bushing clamps to see if this helps eliminate the "clunk". We do know that loosening the end link bolts causes the "clunk" to become worse.
Blue
| funsti | 08-10-2005 09:41 AM |
I'm getting squeaking noises from my bar whenever I go over substantial bumps/speed-bumps. I used plenty of synthetic grease on the center bushing clamps just like the instructions suggested. I tightened the endlink nuts down even further on each side and now the noise happens less often but it is still there. This is normal right?
I only used two washers on each side (my kit came with 4 for each side) because I couldn't figure out where to use the other two and also couldn't see them in the picture on the instruction sheet.
Also I mounted the brackets such that the long side sticks out horizontally (and gets the endlink bolt through its hole). I thought they were supposed to go the other way based on the pictures posted of Joel's prototype bar and also the instruction sheet but I couldn't get it to go in that way so I tried it the other way and it went in easily.
I only used two washers on each side (my kit came with 4 for each side) because I couldn't figure out where to use the other two and also couldn't see them in the picture on the instruction sheet.
Also I mounted the brackets such that the long side sticks out horizontally (and gets the endlink bolt through its hole). I thought they were supposed to go the other way based on the pictures posted of Joel's prototype bar and also the instruction sheet but I couldn't get it to go in that way so I tried it the other way and it went in easily.
| Scott Farmer | 08-10-2005 10:51 AM |
I'm getting squeaking noises too. When I get back home, I'm going to add more lube (did a search, people recommend Phil Wood bicycle lube) and tighten the endlink nuts. But I actually used all 4 washers (I'll take pictures to show how I orientated it).
| BlueSTI4Me | 08-10-2005 06:40 PM |
[QUOTE=Scott Farmer]I'm getting squeaking noises too. When I get back home, I'm going to add more lube (did a search, people recommend Phil Wood bicycle lube) and tighten the endlink nuts. But I actually used all 4 washers (I'll take pictures to show how I orientated it).[/QUOTE]
We ended up using some bicycle lube with graphite and other neat items. I will have to get the name of it. Seems to work fine.
We ended up using some bicycle lube with graphite and other neat items. I will have to get the name of it. Seems to work fine.
| BlueSTI4Me | 08-10-2005 06:43 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]I'm getting squeaking noises from my bar whenever I go over substantial bumps/speed-bumps. I used plenty of synthetic grease on the center bushing clamps just like the instructions suggested. I tightened the endlink nuts down even further on each side and now the noise happens less often but it is still there. This is normal right?
[COLOR=Red]There has to be a way to eliminate the clunk. Again, when Smitty gets back and tries the clamps we will let you know what are the results. [/COLOR]
I only used two washers on each side (my kit came with 4 for each side) because I couldn't figure out where to use the other two and also couldn't see them in the picture on the instruction sheet.
[COLOR=Red]Same here on the number of washers.[/COLOR]
Also I mounted the brackets such that the long side sticks out horizontally (and gets the endlink bolt through its hole). I thought they were supposed to go the other way based on the pictures posted of Joel's prototype bar and also the instruction sheet but I couldn't get it to go in that way so I tried it the other way and it went in easily.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]Will have to look again. We mounted the short side out, if I remember correctly.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Red]There has to be a way to eliminate the clunk. Again, when Smitty gets back and tries the clamps we will let you know what are the results. [/COLOR]
I only used two washers on each side (my kit came with 4 for each side) because I couldn't figure out where to use the other two and also couldn't see them in the picture on the instruction sheet.
[COLOR=Red]Same here on the number of washers.[/COLOR]
Also I mounted the brackets such that the long side sticks out horizontally (and gets the endlink bolt through its hole). I thought they were supposed to go the other way based on the pictures posted of Joel's prototype bar and also the instruction sheet but I couldn't get it to go in that way so I tried it the other way and it went in easily.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]Will have to look again. We mounted the short side out, if I remember correctly.[/COLOR]
| AUTOwrXER | 08-11-2005 07:03 PM |
It's hard for me to say if I get any noises from the bar, as everything else on the car is louder! I don't have any lube on the endlink bushings, but you should always make sure that the mounts are well lubed and the bar is moving freely. I can almost guarantee that you would get binding and unpredictable handling if the mounts are not lubed.
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