| DiMensionX | 10-15-2002 05:26 PM |
Building an SM Class Killer WRX
Dead-Bolt and I wanted to start threads for building an STX and SM class killer WRX. This is for SM.
Let's start listing out mods for SM for the WRX to make it a class killer.
Shawn
Let's start listing out mods for SM for the WRX to make it a class killer.
Shawn
| BOY | 10-15-2002 05:35 PM |
damn, double post
| BOY | 10-15-2002 05:37 PM |
18x10" wheels, custom valved coilover suspension, 6 pot brakes, and probably need to transplant an H6 to compete with conebasher (if you're planning on nat'ls). Seriously, on a local level, just build the car as much as possible keeping in mind low end torque is more important than ultimate power (i.e. EJ22/25 swap, higher compression, etc), suspension/tire choice will he vital, but most importantly driver.
| DiMensionX | 10-15-2002 05:38 PM |
I'll start with my mods.
I would love it someone has a comprehensive list of SM class and below mods premade to post here.
I'm SM 27 in the Atlanta Region.
VF-34 Turbo
M2 Up-pipe
Turbo back TurboXS Exhaust, no Cats
STI Injectors
UTEC
255 LPH Walbro Fuel Pump
Hacked intake
Hyperflow Top mount intercooler (TurboXS)
Stock BOV
Tien HA's with Pillowball's
Whiteline ALK (Don't lecture me, it DOES NOT change suspension mount points)
Whiteline 24mm Blade adj rear Anti-Sway bar
Kartboy Endlinks
Kartboy Shortshifter / bushings
Carbotech Panther pads with stock rotor's/calipers
No rear seat
Cusco Carbon Fiber Rear Strut tower brace
SSR Comp 17x7.5" Rims 12.5lbs ea
Kumho Victor Racer 245/45/17 heat cycled and shaved
I have been running -3 degrees front camber and -1.7 rear and 0 Toe. That may change as I have a tuning session this weekend where I'll use a pyro to make it right.
Seem's these kumho's like 42/42 PSI at the moment.
The Tiens are set to 8 in the front and 16 in the rear at the moment (out of 24) for dampening/rebound.
I'm sure there is stuff I forgot, I'll add and edit as I remember.
Shawn
I would love it someone has a comprehensive list of SM class and below mods premade to post here.
I'm SM 27 in the Atlanta Region.
VF-34 Turbo
M2 Up-pipe
Turbo back TurboXS Exhaust, no Cats
STI Injectors
UTEC
255 LPH Walbro Fuel Pump
Hacked intake
Hyperflow Top mount intercooler (TurboXS)
Stock BOV
Tien HA's with Pillowball's
Whiteline ALK (Don't lecture me, it DOES NOT change suspension mount points)
Whiteline 24mm Blade adj rear Anti-Sway bar
Kartboy Endlinks
Kartboy Shortshifter / bushings
Carbotech Panther pads with stock rotor's/calipers
No rear seat
Cusco Carbon Fiber Rear Strut tower brace
SSR Comp 17x7.5" Rims 12.5lbs ea
Kumho Victor Racer 245/45/17 heat cycled and shaved
I have been running -3 degrees front camber and -1.7 rear and 0 Toe. That may change as I have a tuning session this weekend where I'll use a pyro to make it right.
Seem's these kumho's like 42/42 PSI at the moment.
The Tiens are set to 8 in the front and 16 in the rear at the moment (out of 24) for dampening/rebound.
I'm sure there is stuff I forgot, I'll add and edit as I remember.
Shawn
| dwx | 10-15-2002 05:42 PM |
Look at Cobb's project conebasher car and that's where you want to start. Unbelievable torque everywhere, 10" rims with slicks, full Koni suspension. It did end up 12th at nationals this year out of alot of entries, so at almost all other levels it's going to be an SM killer. The only thing I would improve on that car is perhaps put a 6-spd STi box in it, or a rebuilt close-ratio 5-spd with a quaife front diff. Other than that just try to lighten the car up as much as possible. Anyone know if a different steering rack is legal in SM? An idea I'm toying with is running ALS next year for autox events.
STX is probably easier. Brakes, suspension, and some kind of fuel/timing piggyback to get peak torque out the stock setup. Free flowing exhaust (1 cat) and uppipe as well. Run light wheels with low profile tires to optimize the gearing (2nd gear sucks) so I'd run 15x7.5 or 8 with as wide a tires as you can fit with the suspension.
STX is probably easier. Brakes, suspension, and some kind of fuel/timing piggyback to get peak torque out the stock setup. Free flowing exhaust (1 cat) and uppipe as well. Run light wheels with low profile tires to optimize the gearing (2nd gear sucks) so I'd run 15x7.5 or 8 with as wide a tires as you can fit with the suspension.
| DiMensionX | 10-15-2002 05:44 PM |
IMHO 18's are trash for any automotive sport and are only for looks.
NO ONE runs 18's and is competative, or should I say if they are competative on 18's then they would be even more so on 16's, in Solo II event at least. I'm sure Solo I has some folks running 18's but not many.
16x10's would be what I'd run if I could find them and they were light. For now my 17x7.5's that weigh 12.5lbs will suffice.
SSR makes a 16x7.5 that I would be using, however I already have the 17's and don't want to shell out that money right now. I'd rather wait for a set of 16x10's.
The gearing changes that a 16" rim vs an 18" rim makes is serious to think about. In an Autocross the 16 WILL make a difference.
Shawn
NO ONE runs 18's and is competative, or should I say if they are competative on 18's then they would be even more so on 16's, in Solo II event at least. I'm sure Solo I has some folks running 18's but not many.
16x10's would be what I'd run if I could find them and they were light. For now my 17x7.5's that weigh 12.5lbs will suffice.
SSR makes a 16x7.5 that I would be using, however I already have the 17's and don't want to shell out that money right now. I'd rather wait for a set of 16x10's.
The gearing changes that a 16" rim vs an 18" rim makes is serious to think about. In an Autocross the 16 WILL make a difference.
Shawn
| BOY | 10-15-2002 05:54 PM |
The wheels are custom built and very leightweight. As for the drivetrain it is a stock tranny with aftermarket (forgot which manufacturer) LSDs front/back. The car uses an EJ25 with 9.0 or 9.5:1 compression (read: torque). You should consider the H6 (or EJ33), it is legal in SM for 3.0 forced induction.
As for Conebasher's 12th place finish was due to many factors, number 1 being it was just put back together after a serious crash and Chris did not have seat time for ~10 wks. Above and beyond that the car was not running right (misfiring).
As for Conebasher's 12th place finish was due to many factors, number 1 being it was just put back together after a serious crash and Chris did not have seat time for ~10 wks. Above and beyond that the car was not running right (misfiring).
| SUV-ETR | 10-15-2002 06:48 PM |
Don't get me wrong, I've seen the Cobb car, and it is WAAAY COOL! :eek: :eek:
However, for a purpose-built SM car, the absolute goal is to reduce weight everywhere you can.
Big brakes? Nope. I'll take Willwood Dynalites (4/2) on stock rotors to save weight, but other than that, just get some good pads. Maybe even go to 2.5RS rotors to save more weight.
Big wheels? Nope. I'll take 16x10. 15x10 if I can get them over the brakes (RS rotors?). This has the impact of greatly reducing un-sprung weight, improving effective gear ratios, and fitting wider tires in the fenders before you rub.
Steel fender flares? Nope. Fiberglass if necessary. None if possible.
Wings/cages/etc? Nope. Hell, I'd even remove the sideskirts, fog lights, and rear wing. The hood is already aluminum, and the front fenders are tiny, so CF doesn't save much. Only if money is no object.
H6 engine? No way. The WRX is too nose-heavy as it is! Which leads me to:
2.5L engine? I don't know the weight, but if the longblock is heavier than the 2.0, nope.
Big turbo? Definitely not! Maybe a hair bigger than stock for some more power, but lag is the DEVIL. :devil: I'll take a 400hp and no lag over 600hp any day!
Six speed? Why? This is autocross!!! If you use 3rd, you're lucky. I bet the 5-speed is lighter, too. Go with an custom hardened gearset if you need strength.
Intercooler....hmmm...air/water is much more efficient, and packaging is much easier, which saves weight. Also gets weight off the front bumper compared to a FMIC. Maybe still not enough to offset the weight of the water though. Jury's out on that one...
Hoosiers. Period. I've heard the new 4-series is already making the 3-series look slow.
Now, the really important stuff:
- double-adj Konis with coilover sleeves and various spring rates to play with
- various swaybars to play with
- spherical bearings (or at least delrin) on all suspension pivits
- re-designed control arms (would have to be phase-2, since you'd need some seat time to decide what geometry changes you want)
- better power steering pump
- MUCH quicker steering rack!!
- usual tuner stuff like short-shift kit, strut tower bars, etc.
The bottom line: TIME! Both for driving skills and for chassis tuning. None of us are going to build a perfect car on the first try. Cobb is "Exhibit A" here. I'd be that car cost more than any other in the field (maybe even Dennis'), but barely squeaked into the trophies.
Neal
However, for a purpose-built SM car, the absolute goal is to reduce weight everywhere you can.
Big brakes? Nope. I'll take Willwood Dynalites (4/2) on stock rotors to save weight, but other than that, just get some good pads. Maybe even go to 2.5RS rotors to save more weight.
Big wheels? Nope. I'll take 16x10. 15x10 if I can get them over the brakes (RS rotors?). This has the impact of greatly reducing un-sprung weight, improving effective gear ratios, and fitting wider tires in the fenders before you rub.
Steel fender flares? Nope. Fiberglass if necessary. None if possible.
Wings/cages/etc? Nope. Hell, I'd even remove the sideskirts, fog lights, and rear wing. The hood is already aluminum, and the front fenders are tiny, so CF doesn't save much. Only if money is no object.
H6 engine? No way. The WRX is too nose-heavy as it is! Which leads me to:
2.5L engine? I don't know the weight, but if the longblock is heavier than the 2.0, nope.
Big turbo? Definitely not! Maybe a hair bigger than stock for some more power, but lag is the DEVIL. :devil: I'll take a 400hp and no lag over 600hp any day!
Six speed? Why? This is autocross!!! If you use 3rd, you're lucky. I bet the 5-speed is lighter, too. Go with an custom hardened gearset if you need strength.
Intercooler....hmmm...air/water is much more efficient, and packaging is much easier, which saves weight. Also gets weight off the front bumper compared to a FMIC. Maybe still not enough to offset the weight of the water though. Jury's out on that one...
Hoosiers. Period. I've heard the new 4-series is already making the 3-series look slow.
Now, the really important stuff:
- double-adj Konis with coilover sleeves and various spring rates to play with
- various swaybars to play with
- spherical bearings (or at least delrin) on all suspension pivits
- re-designed control arms (would have to be phase-2, since you'd need some seat time to decide what geometry changes you want)
- better power steering pump
- MUCH quicker steering rack!!
- usual tuner stuff like short-shift kit, strut tower bars, etc.
The bottom line: TIME! Both for driving skills and for chassis tuning. None of us are going to build a perfect car on the first try. Cobb is "Exhibit A" here. I'd be that car cost more than any other in the field (maybe even Dennis'), but barely squeaked into the trophies.
Neal
| DiMensionX | 10-15-2002 07:24 PM |
Good stuff so far:-). The dynalites are on my list as money allows, that save alot of unsprung weight. I'm not convinced the air/water intercooler would be worth it.
Why Koni's vs Tien vs DMS?
I'd love some folks to post a list of legal SM weight saving idea's too. I'll throw out some to start with, this list is from a friend on another list and some of the weights are going to be off a little, but it's a start:
Alright - Lets start with SP legal stuff:
Replace passenger seat with plastic Summit Drag Seat and no sliders - 30 lbs
Remove All AC components - 50 lbs
Stiffer Springs and Lighter / No Swaybars - 10 lbs
Replace Radio with Radio Delete Panel, ditch speakers - 15 lbs
Replace Factory Exhaust with Titanium shorty straight pipe - 35 lbs
Lightweight Racing Shell Drivers Seat - 25 lbs
Permanent Mount Drivers Seat instead of having it on Sliders - 5 lbs
Extrude Hone and "Polish" Intake Manifold - 5 lbs
Aluminum Pullies - 2 lbs
Aluminum Flywheel - 14 lbs
Lighter wheels - 16 lbs
Aluminum Body Shocks - 5 lbs
Lighter Battery - 10 lbs
Titanium Header - 10 lbs.
Wohoo! - We saved 232 lbs. in SP mods alone.
Now lets do SM mods:
Aluminum Lower Control Arms - 10 lbs
Tubular Titanium Rear Trailing arms - 20 lbs
Machined Aluminum Steering Knuckles - 20 lbs
Smaller, better brakes - 25 lbs
Carbon Fiber Front Fascia - 15 lbs
Carbon Fiber Rear Fascia - 15 lbs
Carbon Fiber Hood - 5 lbs
Carbon Fiber Fenders - 5 lbs
Remove Back Seats - 20 lbs
Titanium Connecting Rods - 3 lbs
Titanium Valves - 1 lb
Forged Pistons - 1 lb
Remove 3rd, 4th, and 5th from the tranny - 20 lbs
Titanium Shift Linkage - 10 lbs
Carbon Fiber Axles - 30 lbs
Alright, that's 200 additional pounds in SM trim, for a total weight savings of 432 lbs! We've now got that portly 3100 lb WRX down to a svelt 2668 pounds.
Shawn
Why Koni's vs Tien vs DMS?
I'd love some folks to post a list of legal SM weight saving idea's too. I'll throw out some to start with, this list is from a friend on another list and some of the weights are going to be off a little, but it's a start:
Alright - Lets start with SP legal stuff:
Replace passenger seat with plastic Summit Drag Seat and no sliders - 30 lbs
Remove All AC components - 50 lbs
Stiffer Springs and Lighter / No Swaybars - 10 lbs
Replace Radio with Radio Delete Panel, ditch speakers - 15 lbs
Replace Factory Exhaust with Titanium shorty straight pipe - 35 lbs
Lightweight Racing Shell Drivers Seat - 25 lbs
Permanent Mount Drivers Seat instead of having it on Sliders - 5 lbs
Extrude Hone and "Polish" Intake Manifold - 5 lbs
Aluminum Pullies - 2 lbs
Aluminum Flywheel - 14 lbs
Lighter wheels - 16 lbs
Aluminum Body Shocks - 5 lbs
Lighter Battery - 10 lbs
Titanium Header - 10 lbs.
Wohoo! - We saved 232 lbs. in SP mods alone.
Now lets do SM mods:
Aluminum Lower Control Arms - 10 lbs
Tubular Titanium Rear Trailing arms - 20 lbs
Machined Aluminum Steering Knuckles - 20 lbs
Smaller, better brakes - 25 lbs
Carbon Fiber Front Fascia - 15 lbs
Carbon Fiber Rear Fascia - 15 lbs
Carbon Fiber Hood - 5 lbs
Carbon Fiber Fenders - 5 lbs
Remove Back Seats - 20 lbs
Titanium Connecting Rods - 3 lbs
Titanium Valves - 1 lb
Forged Pistons - 1 lb
Remove 3rd, 4th, and 5th from the tranny - 20 lbs
Titanium Shift Linkage - 10 lbs
Carbon Fiber Axles - 30 lbs
Alright, that's 200 additional pounds in SM trim, for a total weight savings of 432 lbs! We've now got that portly 3100 lb WRX down to a svelt 2668 pounds.
Shawn
| Orion | 10-15-2002 07:49 PM |
Best of luck to you! I'd love to see it in Topeka layingt waste to the field!
Seriously though, I hope you have some serious $$$. After witnessing SM at Nationals we figured it would take a minimum of 6 figures to build a competitive top 5 car assuming the driver is capable. Then you'd need to continue to dump money into it to stay competitive year after year.
Seriously though, I hope you have some serious $$$. After witnessing SM at Nationals we figured it would take a minimum of 6 figures to build a competitive top 5 car assuming the driver is capable. Then you'd need to continue to dump money into it to stay competitive year after year.
| DiMensionX | 10-16-2002 12:10 AM |
Ummm, no way 6 figures man. I mean sure one could spend that, but it can be done for much less. Let alone the fact that as a driver I am not capable of that level of competition, yet.
In any case, the purpose of this post is not for how much it's going to cost, but more of what needs to, can be, and should be done to make the car the most competative car it can be.
Shawn
In any case, the purpose of this post is not for how much it's going to cost, but more of what needs to, can be, and should be done to make the car the most competative car it can be.
Shawn
| dwx | 10-16-2002 12:24 AM |
I don't think it would take anywhere near 6 figures... $100k is ALOT of money. If you want a good starting platform I'd start with a 1993-1995 L, drop a 2.2 closed-deck turbo motor in. The car weighs 2650 stock... Find a well matched turbo, do all the suspension bits, wheels, etc. I don't think you need an M3 or S4 to start off with to build a competitive SM car.
If you are using a WRX: Get rid of the WRX gearing. Autox courses are done in 2nd gear and 2nd gear in the WRX sucks. That's why I suggested the 6-spd, although it is additional weight. I'm looking at doing a close-ratio rebuilt 5-spd with straight cut 1/2/3 gears and new front/center diff. The other option I mentioned is find a nice cheap turbo to use and run anti-lag. You can switch it on and off and I bet even a VF30 would last you an entire season with it running. Lag out of a tight corner? What lag? The only problem I see with ALS is noise. You pretty much have to run a straight through catless/mufflerless exhaust and it's just too loud for the most part.
If you are using a WRX: Get rid of the WRX gearing. Autox courses are done in 2nd gear and 2nd gear in the WRX sucks. That's why I suggested the 6-spd, although it is additional weight. I'm looking at doing a close-ratio rebuilt 5-spd with straight cut 1/2/3 gears and new front/center diff. The other option I mentioned is find a nice cheap turbo to use and run anti-lag. You can switch it on and off and I bet even a VF30 would last you an entire season with it running. Lag out of a tight corner? What lag? The only problem I see with ALS is noise. You pretty much have to run a straight through catless/mufflerless exhaust and it's just too loud for the most part.
| SUV-ETR | 10-16-2002 12:39 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DiMensionX [/i]
[B]
Why Koni's vs Tien vs DMS?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Simple:
1) Availability
Tien and DMS just don't have the coverage that Koni has in the US. Koni is everywhere.
2) Customizability
You can have Konis built to YOUR specs at realistic prices (~$100 to re-valve a single-adj, a bit more for doubles). They'll even send you a shock dyno chart for reference. Ask me how I know. ;)
3) Support
Tien & DMS don't exactly have tents at Nationals, do they? :cool: Koni was doing rebuilds for the cost of parts at Nationals. That usually meant about $100 to rebuild/revalve ALL FOUR struts! Not surprising they were booked up for the duration of the event soon after that announcement.
4) Cost
I got standard single-adj inserts for the RS for about $600 from TireRack. Hard to beat that. Though I'm not sure what it would cost on a Subaru, I got a killer setup for my VW: Double-adj struts in custom shortened housings up front and custom-valved singles in the back for about $1400, with my choice of springs, sleeves, and perches.
Performance-wise, DMS is really good. However, they are REALLY expensive, and unless you're sponsored by them (even if you're sponsored?) they don't really support Solo-II like they do rally. What would it cost to have DMS build you a custom strut? How long would it take?
Tein...well, I know a number of people seem to be happy with the coilovers, but I'm not convinced. I've seen several sets of their street springs, and they're the crappiest things I've ever seen. :( The car bounces and the springs sag BADLY after less than two years.
If you want to spend $$$, get a set of remote-resovoir Penske struts built for the car. Somewhere around $1400 each. Got some spare cash?
Neal
[B]
Why Koni's vs Tien vs DMS?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Simple:
1) Availability
Tien and DMS just don't have the coverage that Koni has in the US. Koni is everywhere.
2) Customizability
You can have Konis built to YOUR specs at realistic prices (~$100 to re-valve a single-adj, a bit more for doubles). They'll even send you a shock dyno chart for reference. Ask me how I know. ;)
3) Support
Tien & DMS don't exactly have tents at Nationals, do they? :cool: Koni was doing rebuilds for the cost of parts at Nationals. That usually meant about $100 to rebuild/revalve ALL FOUR struts! Not surprising they were booked up for the duration of the event soon after that announcement.
4) Cost
I got standard single-adj inserts for the RS for about $600 from TireRack. Hard to beat that. Though I'm not sure what it would cost on a Subaru, I got a killer setup for my VW: Double-adj struts in custom shortened housings up front and custom-valved singles in the back for about $1400, with my choice of springs, sleeves, and perches.
Performance-wise, DMS is really good. However, they are REALLY expensive, and unless you're sponsored by them (even if you're sponsored?) they don't really support Solo-II like they do rally. What would it cost to have DMS build you a custom strut? How long would it take?
Tein...well, I know a number of people seem to be happy with the coilovers, but I'm not convinced. I've seen several sets of their street springs, and they're the crappiest things I've ever seen. :( The car bounces and the springs sag BADLY after less than two years.
If you want to spend $$$, get a set of remote-resovoir Penske struts built for the car. Somewhere around $1400 each. Got some spare cash?
Neal
| SUV-ETR | 10-16-2002 12:56 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by orionf [/i]
[B]Seriously though, I hope you have some serious $$$. After witnessing SM at Nationals we figured it would take a minimum of 6 figures to build a competitive top 5 car assuming the driver is capable. Then you'd need to continue to dump money into it to stay competitive year after year. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, there's no doubt in my mind that it would cost near that much to duplicate the Cobb car.
Subarus, while certainly not as bad as a Porsche, are EXPENSIVE to modify. Couple this with the fact that you have to buy a new car, and it is easy to see that an SM Subaru will cost major $$$$!
However, it is not at all necessary to spend lots of money to be competitive in SM, though it does of course limit your car choice.
For one example, you have the muscle cars like Camaros and Mustangs. Aftermarket goodies for these cars are CHEAP, it is easy to make lots of power, and SM allows enough suspension mods to make it handle reasonably well.
Another example are the small, older FWD cars like Neons, Civics, VWs, etc. Making power can be expensive, but they don't need so much if you pick your car wisely. 250hp in a 1800lb car can keep up with 400hp in a 2800lb car reasonably well in a straight line, and SLAUGHTER it in the slaloms. Top-shelf suspension parts for these cars are CHEAP because they're easy to get and well-developed over the years (see previous VW example).
I think it's possible to be competitive for under $10K with the right choices. If you insist on going Subaru, the cheapest viable choice is an '96-ish AWD Impreza L with a Legacy Turbo or WRX swap (like dwx mentioned). You might pull that off for under $10k, and I'd think you could go all out with that setup for well under $20k. Now that I think about it, it should even have more potential than a WRX: LESS WEIGHT!!
Neal
[B]Seriously though, I hope you have some serious $$$. After witnessing SM at Nationals we figured it would take a minimum of 6 figures to build a competitive top 5 car assuming the driver is capable. Then you'd need to continue to dump money into it to stay competitive year after year. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, there's no doubt in my mind that it would cost near that much to duplicate the Cobb car.
Subarus, while certainly not as bad as a Porsche, are EXPENSIVE to modify. Couple this with the fact that you have to buy a new car, and it is easy to see that an SM Subaru will cost major $$$$!
However, it is not at all necessary to spend lots of money to be competitive in SM, though it does of course limit your car choice.
For one example, you have the muscle cars like Camaros and Mustangs. Aftermarket goodies for these cars are CHEAP, it is easy to make lots of power, and SM allows enough suspension mods to make it handle reasonably well.
Another example are the small, older FWD cars like Neons, Civics, VWs, etc. Making power can be expensive, but they don't need so much if you pick your car wisely. 250hp in a 1800lb car can keep up with 400hp in a 2800lb car reasonably well in a straight line, and SLAUGHTER it in the slaloms. Top-shelf suspension parts for these cars are CHEAP because they're easy to get and well-developed over the years (see previous VW example).
I think it's possible to be competitive for under $10K with the right choices. If you insist on going Subaru, the cheapest viable choice is an '96-ish AWD Impreza L with a Legacy Turbo or WRX swap (like dwx mentioned). You might pull that off for under $10k, and I'd think you could go all out with that setup for well under $20k. Now that I think about it, it should even have more potential than a WRX: LESS WEIGHT!!
Neal
| DiMensionX | 10-16-2002 02:06 AM |
Cool, more good discussion. Let's keep it rolling as there are several folks I know personally in lurk mode, I think we would ALL like to see a WRX whoop some ass at some serious events. Engine and Tranny permitting I hope it to be mine.
I'm all about sharing information. Look into some of my UTEC posts. I'm working on a specific map for Auto-Xing in the "Beast" which should prove to be over 330hp at the wheels, with the suspension and brakes to match. Let me reitterate, tranny and engine withholding:-). Right now I can make 270HP at the wheels at 10.5:1 A/F and NEVER go over 1400 degree's on EGT's in the 3rd cylinder:D . This weekend will be some major tweaking with both 2nd gear tuning and suspension adjustments to make sure she is performing to her potential.
I'm going to cross link this in the other forum to get some more exposure. Anyone with some more weight loss advise?
Also, a rule I'm not sure about, spraying cold CO2 on the intercooler. Where does that stand in SM? And for the Anti-Lag, where does that stand as well in SM.
Shawn
I'm all about sharing information. Look into some of my UTEC posts. I'm working on a specific map for Auto-Xing in the "Beast" which should prove to be over 330hp at the wheels, with the suspension and brakes to match. Let me reitterate, tranny and engine withholding:-). Right now I can make 270HP at the wheels at 10.5:1 A/F and NEVER go over 1400 degree's on EGT's in the 3rd cylinder:D . This weekend will be some major tweaking with both 2nd gear tuning and suspension adjustments to make sure she is performing to her potential.
I'm going to cross link this in the other forum to get some more exposure. Anyone with some more weight loss advise?
Also, a rule I'm not sure about, spraying cold CO2 on the intercooler. Where does that stand in SM? And for the Anti-Lag, where does that stand as well in SM.
Shawn
| zzyzx | 10-16-2002 03:21 AM |
The 245/45-17s are hurting your gearing significantly. You should run 245/45-16s. However powerful you think your car feels on those tires, it'll just be more so on the 16s.
An Impreza L is the best vehicle to start with, not the portly WRX. Weight is critical for autox. We in STS learned this (again) by the onslaught of the Civic Sis.
- Steve
An Impreza L is the best vehicle to start with, not the portly WRX. Weight is critical for autox. We in STS learned this (again) by the onslaught of the Civic Sis.
- Steve
| DiMensionX | 10-16-2002 03:31 AM |
Yup, I know. I have other things to buy before 16x10" rims though and the SSR comp 17's are a good compramise.
Shawn
Shawn
| Orion | 10-16-2002 08:25 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DiMensionX [/i]
[B]Ummm, no way 6 figures man. I mean sure one could spend that, but it can be done for much less. Let alone the fact that as a driver I am not capable of that level of competition, yet.
In any case, the purpose of this post is not for how much it's going to cost, but more of what needs to, can be, and should be done to make the car the most competative car it can be.
Shawn [/B][/QUOTE]
Come watch Nationals next year, you'll agree with the outrageous amounts of money you'll need to build a semi-competitve Subaru or any other AWD car. There's no way you could duplicate the 2nd place Audi for less than $100K, the Conebasher most likely could not be duplicated for less than that either. If you skip over the Civic and Neon, the next cheapest cars were the BMW's.
I completely understand what you're after here, but honestly I think zzyzx hit the nail on the head. the WRX is the wrong car to start with. Find an Impreza L and go from there. Much lighter to start with and there's a whole slew of suspension parts since the GC is a popular rally platform worldwide. Finally, we all know what the Subie motors are capable of ;).
Like I said before, I hope this beast comes to life! I'd love to see it in Topeka!:D
[B]Ummm, no way 6 figures man. I mean sure one could spend that, but it can be done for much less. Let alone the fact that as a driver I am not capable of that level of competition, yet.
In any case, the purpose of this post is not for how much it's going to cost, but more of what needs to, can be, and should be done to make the car the most competative car it can be.
Shawn [/B][/QUOTE]
Come watch Nationals next year, you'll agree with the outrageous amounts of money you'll need to build a semi-competitve Subaru or any other AWD car. There's no way you could duplicate the 2nd place Audi for less than $100K, the Conebasher most likely could not be duplicated for less than that either. If you skip over the Civic and Neon, the next cheapest cars were the BMW's.
I completely understand what you're after here, but honestly I think zzyzx hit the nail on the head. the WRX is the wrong car to start with. Find an Impreza L and go from there. Much lighter to start with and there's a whole slew of suspension parts since the GC is a popular rally platform worldwide. Finally, we all know what the Subie motors are capable of ;).
Like I said before, I hope this beast comes to life! I'd love to see it in Topeka!:D
| Darshu | 10-16-2002 08:30 AM |
Actually a WRX isn't a bad idea weight-wise in SM, since there are minimum weight requirements based on adjusted displacement and drivetrain. In the case of an AWD 2.0L turbo, that minimum weight is 2600lbs. As was fleshed out above, an SM prepped car can hit that target fairly (now that's a relative term :) ) easily. In the case of the L you'll be doing serious bodywork to fit anything close to the tires you can fit on a wrx.
This isn't to say that an L would be a poor idea for a ground-up SM car, simply that the weight question for the WRX will not be a real issue because of the class minimum requirements.
This isn't to say that an L would be a poor idea for a ground-up SM car, simply that the weight question for the WRX will not be a real issue because of the class minimum requirements.
| ConeMasher | 10-16-2002 09:21 AM |
Remember, just because you're _at_ minimum weight, doesn't mean your work is done! What you really want is to be a couple hundred pounds under minimum weight, and then run ballast at the lowest point in the car to achieve the proper cornerweights. As such, the L is a much better baseline. Also note, there are no concerns regarding this bit:
>In the case of the L you'll be doing serious bodywork to fit >anything close to the tires you can fit on a wrx.
You see, as per Section 14, fender flares are WIDE OPEN in SM... and when you're already swapping drivetrains, something as simple as fender flares isn't too daunting :)
-- Gary
>In the case of the L you'll be doing serious bodywork to fit >anything close to the tires you can fit on a wrx.
You see, as per Section 14, fender flares are WIDE OPEN in SM... and when you're already swapping drivetrains, something as simple as fender flares isn't too daunting :)
-- Gary
| Darshu | 10-16-2002 09:29 AM |
I totally agree on the point of being able to add ballast in an advantageous location when you choose to go with a light base platform and I also agree that the L is a great place to start building a class-killer.
A couple concerns about the L -- really these are just points of curiousity on my part -- when you put 10" wide wheels on a car that's got room at the stock offset for about 7" worth of wheel, to what extent will the spacers and adapters you have to run affect handling? Would it be a better idea to run the diffs and axles from a GD at this point? What would that require in terms of suspension component changes?
Also, since DiMensionX seems to have picked a WRX as his starting point, should we just focus on that? :)
A couple concerns about the L -- really these are just points of curiousity on my part -- when you put 10" wide wheels on a car that's got room at the stock offset for about 7" worth of wheel, to what extent will the spacers and adapters you have to run affect handling? Would it be a better idea to run the diffs and axles from a GD at this point? What would that require in terms of suspension component changes?
Also, since DiMensionX seems to have picked a WRX as his starting point, should we just focus on that? :)
| SUV-ETR | 10-16-2002 09:37 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Darshu [/i]
[B]Actually a WRX isn't a bad idea weight-wise in SM, since there are minimum weight requirements based on adjusted displacement and drivetrain. In the case of an AWD 2.0L turbo, that minimum weight is 2600lbs. [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't forget that the GC8 is several inches (body-wise, not just ride height) than the new-age cars. It only takes one back-to-back ride in the new vs. old platforms to see which one has a lower center of gravity and less tendency to roll.
Besides, the L could save you nearly $20,000 right off the bat, and a good shopper could even include the base Legacy Turbo engine in that figure. Unless you've got money to burn, a WRX just doesn't make sense as a dedicated SM Subaru. It isn't a *bad* choice, but not optimal...and we are talking about the "perfect" SM car, right?
Neal
[B]Actually a WRX isn't a bad idea weight-wise in SM, since there are minimum weight requirements based on adjusted displacement and drivetrain. In the case of an AWD 2.0L turbo, that minimum weight is 2600lbs. [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't forget that the GC8 is several inches (body-wise, not just ride height) than the new-age cars. It only takes one back-to-back ride in the new vs. old platforms to see which one has a lower center of gravity and less tendency to roll.
Besides, the L could save you nearly $20,000 right off the bat, and a good shopper could even include the base Legacy Turbo engine in that figure. Unless you've got money to burn, a WRX just doesn't make sense as a dedicated SM Subaru. It isn't a *bad* choice, but not optimal...and we are talking about the "perfect" SM car, right?
Neal
| Darshu | 10-16-2002 09:46 AM |
[quote]
Unless you've got money to burn, a WRX just doesn't make sense as a dedicated SM Subaru. It isn't a *bad* choice, but not optimal...and we are talking about the "perfect" SM car, right?
[/quote]
Hey you don't have to sell me on the idea of a GC/GM in SM, just look what I drive :) Looking back though, it does seem like the WRX is the focus of this thread -- however I'm all for a discussion of a GC/GM platform SM car too -- wanna start a new thread? :)
Unless you've got money to burn, a WRX just doesn't make sense as a dedicated SM Subaru. It isn't a *bad* choice, but not optimal...and we are talking about the "perfect" SM car, right?
[/quote]
Hey you don't have to sell me on the idea of a GC/GM in SM, just look what I drive :) Looking back though, it does seem like the WRX is the focus of this thread -- however I'm all for a discussion of a GC/GM platform SM car too -- wanna start a new thread? :)
| BOY | 10-16-2002 09:46 AM |
First off on the weight reduction of the WRX, check the rules on fenders... flares may be added to the orginal fender, carbon fiber/fiberglass complete fender replacements are a no-no (hence Cobb using modified originals). CF trunk is also a no-no I believe. As for fitting 10" wheels (regardless of diameter) the WRX and the L have the same fitment issues under the fender, you may get an extra inch of wheel out of the WRX. Wheel spacers/adapters are a non-issue with both cars as you'll need custom offsets anyway. The WRX gearing is actually my preference over the 4.11 RS gears down here in TX. I find I'm shifting into 3rd a bit too often while the WRXs are in 2nd the whole course. Get the low end torque up (EJ 22,25) and the 3.9 gears work very well. As for drivetrain, neither the L, RS, or WRX have an ideal combination of diffs/tranny for SM. You'll need LSDs front and rear, but this can be done rel cheaply with Phantom Grip LSD adapters. The WRX is a portly machine that needs a lot of help to really be a class killer, Cobb's got the formula they just need to work on reliability (which is working itself out nicely). My vote is start with an L and go nuts.
| BOY | 10-16-2002 09:48 AM |
Damn, I press the reply button and my email goes nuts with the last 3 replies....ugh
| SUV-ETR | 10-16-2002 10:08 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BOY [/i]
[B]First off on the weight reduction of the WRX, check the rules on fenders... flares may be added to the orginal fender, carbon fiber/fiberglass complete fender replacements are a no-no (hence Cobb using modified originals). CF trunk is also a no-no I believe. [/B][/QUOTE]
SP rules allow fenders to "be modified for tire clearance". Thus, you can do whatever you need to do to the fenders to get them to fit. There is also a line stating that wheels are allowed to extend past the body, so flares aren't required at all, but some fiberglass flares would look more "professional" if you have sponsors. :)
SM rules, in addition to the SP rules, allow complete replacement of the front fenders and the hood. You're right about the trunk.
To summarize, you can totally replace the front fenders, and use SP rules to cut out the rear as needed for tire clearance. Hoods can be CF/whatever, "body kits" (bumper covers, side skirts, wings) are allowed, but everything else on the unit-body is sacred.
Neal
runs with tin snips :lol:
[B]First off on the weight reduction of the WRX, check the rules on fenders... flares may be added to the orginal fender, carbon fiber/fiberglass complete fender replacements are a no-no (hence Cobb using modified originals). CF trunk is also a no-no I believe. [/B][/QUOTE]
SP rules allow fenders to "be modified for tire clearance". Thus, you can do whatever you need to do to the fenders to get them to fit. There is also a line stating that wheels are allowed to extend past the body, so flares aren't required at all, but some fiberglass flares would look more "professional" if you have sponsors. :)
SM rules, in addition to the SP rules, allow complete replacement of the front fenders and the hood. You're right about the trunk.
To summarize, you can totally replace the front fenders, and use SP rules to cut out the rear as needed for tire clearance. Hoods can be CF/whatever, "body kits" (bumper covers, side skirts, wings) are allowed, but everything else on the unit-body is sacred.
Neal
runs with tin snips :lol:
| BOY | 10-16-2002 10:14 AM |
hmmm, interesting. The logic behind the Cobb fenders was to use the originals, fiberglass/CF would've been much easier and cheaper. The modified for tire clearance doesn't mean relacement, it means modified originals... flares may be of any material. "Replacement of complete fenders or quarter panels is prohibited".
| ConeMasher | 10-16-2002 10:35 AM |
Ahh but remember 18.1.G of SM rules...
"The firewall, roof, doors, rear quarter panels, floor pan, trunk lid (if any) or rear hatch (if any) must remain stock. Holes may be drilled to allow attachment of body kits, etc. This specifically allows replacement hoods, fenders, wings, front & rear fascias, side skirts, and fender flares as per Section 14. "
Sounds like front quarter panels are wide open.
-- Gary
"The firewall, roof, doors, rear quarter panels, floor pan, trunk lid (if any) or rear hatch (if any) must remain stock. Holes may be drilled to allow attachment of body kits, etc. This specifically allows replacement hoods, fenders, wings, front & rear fascias, side skirts, and fender flares as per Section 14. "
Sounds like front quarter panels are wide open.
-- Gary
| FlooredSubaru | 10-16-2002 10:59 AM |
I just realized something reading this.
I have a friend who got a '94 AWD L 1.8L for $950 with nothing wrong but paint. Look for something like that will no power windows, locks, Sun roof.
But one thing i saw early was to remove 3rd gear. I'm running 15s on my Subaru and i get into 3rd at every event with those tires and rims. if i was making more power i think i would have made 4th i know some SM guys were on the last 3 coorses i ran out here in colorado.
But yeah a subaru kicking major ass in any area would be cool.
Erik S.
I have a friend who got a '94 AWD L 1.8L for $950 with nothing wrong but paint. Look for something like that will no power windows, locks, Sun roof.
But one thing i saw early was to remove 3rd gear. I'm running 15s on my Subaru and i get into 3rd at every event with those tires and rims. if i was making more power i think i would have made 4th i know some SM guys were on the last 3 coorses i ran out here in colorado.
But yeah a subaru kicking major ass in any area would be cool.
Erik S.
| BOY | 10-16-2002 11:03 AM |
[quote]14.2 Bodywork
Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. Flares may be added although tires may extend beyond the body work. [b]Replacement of complete flared fenders or quarter panels is prohibited.[/b]
Removal of factory trim is only permitted if the resultant configuration is an allowed update or backdate. [/quote]
Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. Flares may be added although tires may extend beyond the body work. [b]Replacement of complete flared fenders or quarter panels is prohibited.[/b]
Removal of factory trim is only permitted if the resultant configuration is an allowed update or backdate. [/quote]
| DiMensionX | 10-16-2002 01:15 PM |
Yeah, more good discussion. Folks if you haven't realized it by now, I'm well over the half way point with a WRX, as are several others. To me, going to a L probably won't happen as it's a money loosing prop either way, and my money has been spent.
Item of note, I NEVER hit 3rd gear in the SE region. Thats 65mph where I have my rev limiter set at the moment, and I can hold cold boost there with the VF-34. Shifting slows you down, sometimes I have been tempted to hit 3rd, and I've done it before, and I ALWAY's loose time doing it. 1st, 2nd, Haul some serious butt and keep the boost up.
I hate to say but IF I was going to build another car dedicated to Auto-X I would be a traitor, an old CRX is going to be more competive for the money anyday. I would preffer not to go this route, thus this thread.
Shawn
Item of note, I NEVER hit 3rd gear in the SE region. Thats 65mph where I have my rev limiter set at the moment, and I can hold cold boost there with the VF-34. Shifting slows you down, sometimes I have been tempted to hit 3rd, and I've done it before, and I ALWAY's loose time doing it. 1st, 2nd, Haul some serious butt and keep the boost up.
I hate to say but IF I was going to build another car dedicated to Auto-X I would be a traitor, an old CRX is going to be more competive for the money anyday. I would preffer not to go this route, thus this thread.
Shawn
| BOY | 10-16-2002 01:26 PM |
What about a more traditional route? Street prepared, Prepared, Mod??? You don't have to put your WRX in SM just b/c its there. I'm running EP now in my RS, I still have some $$ to spend but it should be competative on a local level by next season.
| SUV-ETR | 10-16-2002 01:32 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DiMensionX [/i]
[B]
Item of note, I NEVER hit 3rd gear in the SE region. Thats 65mph where I have my rev limiter set at the moment, and I can hold cold boost there with the VF-34.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Either you're not going fast enough :p, or you aren't getting to the good courses. I've REDLINED 3rd gear at three autocrosses in the past year in my 165hp G-Stock RS. That's 80-ish mph. The cars with "real" power were topping 95-100. Granted, these courses aren't typical, but I do use 3rd a lot. Of course, 2nd only gets me to 55mph in the RS, but in many cases (not all) you should be doing 65 anywhere I'm doing 55.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DiMensionX [/i]
[B]
an old CRX is going to be more competive for the money anyday.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What class would you run? GS? CSP? It isn't legal for SM. IMHO, it wouldn't compete with the roadsters in SM2. :( Cool car though! Much cheaper than a WRX to prep for SP.
Neal
[B]
Item of note, I NEVER hit 3rd gear in the SE region. Thats 65mph where I have my rev limiter set at the moment, and I can hold cold boost there with the VF-34.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Either you're not going fast enough :p, or you aren't getting to the good courses. I've REDLINED 3rd gear at three autocrosses in the past year in my 165hp G-Stock RS. That's 80-ish mph. The cars with "real" power were topping 95-100. Granted, these courses aren't typical, but I do use 3rd a lot. Of course, 2nd only gets me to 55mph in the RS, but in many cases (not all) you should be doing 65 anywhere I'm doing 55.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DiMensionX [/i]
[B]
an old CRX is going to be more competive for the money anyday.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What class would you run? GS? CSP? It isn't legal for SM. IMHO, it wouldn't compete with the roadsters in SM2. :( Cool car though! Much cheaper than a WRX to prep for SP.
Neal
| ellisnc | 10-16-2002 01:45 PM |
how about carbon fiber door panels in SM? those legal?
don't forget to strip the melt sheets and rustproofing off the bottom of the car and carpet backing. Dump the bumper beams and other obvious stuff like stereo, security system, trunk release, open up the doors and get rid of as much hardware as possible, A/C, wiper motor and arms, brake rotor blocking plates, ABS motor, heatshielding, injector covers (army green color), also I don't think the front subframe really does anything since the Japanese type RA's don't have them. Dump the seat belts front and rear as well as all the other ABS harware like side sensors and ECU, all those metal supports under the rear seat and seat back supports.
Also anyone try to remove the evaporative emissions canister yet? I mean since most of us are running catless anyway...
Actually you could open up the IP and get rid of everything related to climate control under there. The ducting under the carpet. Ducting in the IP. Dump the front airbags since that's legal.
Basically open everything up and rip out everything that isn't needed to run the car and then put it all back together so that it basically looks stock.
Also I wonder why the rear diff housing is made of cast iron not aluminum.
don't forget to strip the melt sheets and rustproofing off the bottom of the car and carpet backing. Dump the bumper beams and other obvious stuff like stereo, security system, trunk release, open up the doors and get rid of as much hardware as possible, A/C, wiper motor and arms, brake rotor blocking plates, ABS motor, heatshielding, injector covers (army green color), also I don't think the front subframe really does anything since the Japanese type RA's don't have them. Dump the seat belts front and rear as well as all the other ABS harware like side sensors and ECU, all those metal supports under the rear seat and seat back supports.
Also anyone try to remove the evaporative emissions canister yet? I mean since most of us are running catless anyway...
Actually you could open up the IP and get rid of everything related to climate control under there. The ducting under the carpet. Ducting in the IP. Dump the front airbags since that's legal.
Basically open everything up and rip out everything that isn't needed to run the car and then put it all back together so that it basically looks stock.
Also I wonder why the rear diff housing is made of cast iron not aluminum.
| DiMensionX | 10-16-2002 05:23 PM |
SUV-ETR, I must have missed some fun courses:-). I ran mostly in Atlanta last year. Next year is a different story as I plan on hitting every event around Atlanta.
As far as the CRX, SM2. If I recall #1 National Champ last year was in a CRX? That or a Civic or MR2 has crossed my mind as well.
Regardless, the money is already in the Rex, and she is just now getting to where she can hang with the big boys. It's me now that needs the seat time to make it happen. That and some more weight reduction.
Speaking of weight, Ellis are you sure on some of those items? I thought the ABS had to stay for the passenger side. The seat's are obvious, so is the steering wheel since it can be replaced, but I'm not sure about the passenger bag. Dunno about wiper blades either. Seat bealts I believe have to be in place yet you can have a harness as well, could be wrong though. Thats why I posted this thread;) . I know the hood is cool to go with CF, but the stock hood doesn't weigh much anyway. I believe door panels are a nono if it is an "obvious weight reduction attempt". Rear wing can go.
Shawn
As far as the CRX, SM2. If I recall #1 National Champ last year was in a CRX? That or a Civic or MR2 has crossed my mind as well.
Regardless, the money is already in the Rex, and she is just now getting to where she can hang with the big boys. It's me now that needs the seat time to make it happen. That and some more weight reduction.
Speaking of weight, Ellis are you sure on some of those items? I thought the ABS had to stay for the passenger side. The seat's are obvious, so is the steering wheel since it can be replaced, but I'm not sure about the passenger bag. Dunno about wiper blades either. Seat bealts I believe have to be in place yet you can have a harness as well, could be wrong though. Thats why I posted this thread;) . I know the hood is cool to go with CF, but the stock hood doesn't weigh much anyway. I believe door panels are a nono if it is an "obvious weight reduction attempt". Rear wing can go.
Shawn
| ellisnc | 10-16-2002 06:15 PM |
just looked...
seems like you have to leave the heater in... does that mean just the heater core? maaaaybe...:devil:
you can remove the ABS system:
Active Automatic Braking Systems (ABS) are prohibited except for the original system installed on the vehicle, which may not be modified. The original system may be removed in its entirety.
looks like the only thing you can't do with regard to brakes is carbon stuff.
you have to leave the handbrake equipment in.
seems like you have to leave the wipers but it doesn't say anything about the motor and arm assemblies:
Except as noted by these rules and the referenced rules, vehicles must be as originally delivered including all road going components such as lights, wipers, interior, heater, etc.
seems like you can use any wings or body kits you want as long as they're not too wide:
Wings may only be attached to the rear deck/hatch area and may not extend more than six inches beyond the widest part of the bodywork on either side.
you can use any fuel you want
I don't see anything about retaining belts or passenger airbag. Someone in my region has a SM DSM with the passenger airbag removed FWIW:
The OEM seat belts may be removed to facilitate the installation of alternate restraints complying with safety requirements.
then you can do the obvious stuff like taking the glovebox weight out and the center console weight reinforcement out.
probably don't need 2 cooling fans either
It doesn't really say anything about carbon door cards in any of the SM or SP rules but I would bet it's against the rules. Although they let you change steering wheels and remove the back seat...
seems like you have to leave the heater in... does that mean just the heater core? maaaaybe...:devil:
you can remove the ABS system:
Active Automatic Braking Systems (ABS) are prohibited except for the original system installed on the vehicle, which may not be modified. The original system may be removed in its entirety.
looks like the only thing you can't do with regard to brakes is carbon stuff.
you have to leave the handbrake equipment in.
seems like you have to leave the wipers but it doesn't say anything about the motor and arm assemblies:
Except as noted by these rules and the referenced rules, vehicles must be as originally delivered including all road going components such as lights, wipers, interior, heater, etc.
seems like you can use any wings or body kits you want as long as they're not too wide:
Wings may only be attached to the rear deck/hatch area and may not extend more than six inches beyond the widest part of the bodywork on either side.
you can use any fuel you want
I don't see anything about retaining belts or passenger airbag. Someone in my region has a SM DSM with the passenger airbag removed FWIW:
The OEM seat belts may be removed to facilitate the installation of alternate restraints complying with safety requirements.
then you can do the obvious stuff like taking the glovebox weight out and the center console weight reinforcement out.
probably don't need 2 cooling fans either
It doesn't really say anything about carbon door cards in any of the SM or SP rules but I would bet it's against the rules. Although they let you change steering wheels and remove the back seat...
| dwx | 10-16-2002 06:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DiMensionX [/i]
[B]SUV-ETR, I must have missed some fun courses:-). I ran mostly in Atlanta last year. Next year is a different story as I plan on hitting every event around Atlanta.
As far as the CRX, SM2. If I recall #1 National Champ last year was in a CRX? That or a Civic or MR2 has crossed my mind as well.
Shawn [/B][/QUOTE]
SM2 is the domain of the domestic, much like ESP. You can run a (twin)turbo Corvette in SM2, need I say more? Turbo miatas are the only foreign cars that I've seen do well in SM2. You could probably create a turbo CRX that would compete against the Miatas but I don't know about going up against a turbo Z06. :)
Phil
[B]SUV-ETR, I must have missed some fun courses:-). I ran mostly in Atlanta last year. Next year is a different story as I plan on hitting every event around Atlanta.
As far as the CRX, SM2. If I recall #1 National Champ last year was in a CRX? That or a Civic or MR2 has crossed my mind as well.
Shawn [/B][/QUOTE]
SM2 is the domain of the domestic, much like ESP. You can run a (twin)turbo Corvette in SM2, need I say more? Turbo miatas are the only foreign cars that I've seen do well in SM2. You could probably create a turbo CRX that would compete against the Miatas but I don't know about going up against a turbo Z06. :)
Phil
| ellisnc | 10-16-2002 06:53 PM |
I run my car in SM now so I'll list up my mods... I run pretty competitively locally, but there are like no 600hp Supras locally that run either, but I'm pretty sure those shouldn't be too much trouble to dispatch. The E30 M3 is a pretty scary car too.
225/50 Kumho Ecsta V700 on stock rims
JIC FLT A2
Aluminum control arms
Cusco front and rear strut bracing (OS front 40mm rear)
Cusco under brace type 2
Cusco stabilizer bars front and rear
STi short shifter (Greddy knob)
Recaro Pole Position seats on Wedge brackets and Recaro sliders
Takata 6 point for myself
Godspeed uppipe and downpipe
JIC 505 Ti exhaust (Full Ti!!!)
Blitz DBSC Spec R boost control (1.05-1.1 bar)
Samco IC hoses
JDM front bumper beam
Battery from a Civic
then here's a list of stuff I removed:
A/C - all of it even evaporator core in the IP
glove box weight
everything in the trunk including carpet and matting, tools, etc.
rear seats
rear seat belts
washer tank
all heat shelds except manifold
intake snorkel - all of it
foglights - have covers instead (don't know if this is possibly breaking the rules either)
Things I'm thinking of removing but haven't
center console weight - just haven't yet :)
supporting hardware under the rear seats - just haven't yet :)
melt sheets and rust proofing - don't know how long I want to keep the car - may get bored this winter and do it.
Brake backing plates - will do when new brakes are added
rear charcoal canister - not sure how must investigate, can you say CEL
Things I'm thinking of adding in the near future:
STi pillow ball lateral and trailing rear links
Cusco header
brakes (not sure which yet depending on what kind of deal I can swing with Brembo for a GT kit)
big radiator from Zerosports or Bozz or something (if Fluidyne came out with a 3 row that would be fine too)
Advan RC2 with some 245's
Autopower rollbar
anyway, this is kind of a temporary auto-x car for me and I'm going to build everything except power for track use right now and get to that when I get to it later. I have an AE86 that'll I'll use for auto-x later ;)
I'll weigh the car pretty soon to see what I'm down to, but I think it'll be less than 2900 with a 1/4 tank of fuel since last time I weighed it it was 2950 or so and that was with A/C, stock exhaust, and stock seats with the rear seat in and with the stock bumper beam.
another long post :)
225/50 Kumho Ecsta V700 on stock rims
JIC FLT A2
Aluminum control arms
Cusco front and rear strut bracing (OS front 40mm rear)
Cusco under brace type 2
Cusco stabilizer bars front and rear
STi short shifter (Greddy knob)
Recaro Pole Position seats on Wedge brackets and Recaro sliders
Takata 6 point for myself
Godspeed uppipe and downpipe
JIC 505 Ti exhaust (Full Ti!!!)
Blitz DBSC Spec R boost control (1.05-1.1 bar)
Samco IC hoses
JDM front bumper beam
Battery from a Civic
then here's a list of stuff I removed:
A/C - all of it even evaporator core in the IP
glove box weight
everything in the trunk including carpet and matting, tools, etc.
rear seats
rear seat belts
washer tank
all heat shelds except manifold
intake snorkel - all of it
foglights - have covers instead (don't know if this is possibly breaking the rules either)
Things I'm thinking of removing but haven't
center console weight - just haven't yet :)
supporting hardware under the rear seats - just haven't yet :)
melt sheets and rust proofing - don't know how long I want to keep the car - may get bored this winter and do it.
Brake backing plates - will do when new brakes are added
rear charcoal canister - not sure how must investigate, can you say CEL
Things I'm thinking of adding in the near future:
STi pillow ball lateral and trailing rear links
Cusco header
brakes (not sure which yet depending on what kind of deal I can swing with Brembo for a GT kit)
big radiator from Zerosports or Bozz or something (if Fluidyne came out with a 3 row that would be fine too)
Advan RC2 with some 245's
Autopower rollbar
anyway, this is kind of a temporary auto-x car for me and I'm going to build everything except power for track use right now and get to that when I get to it later. I have an AE86 that'll I'll use for auto-x later ;)
I'll weigh the car pretty soon to see what I'm down to, but I think it'll be less than 2900 with a 1/4 tank of fuel since last time I weighed it it was 2950 or so and that was with A/C, stock exhaust, and stock seats with the rear seat in and with the stock bumper beam.
another long post :)
| JenisonWRX | 10-16-2002 07:40 PM |
this thread is friggin hillarious ...
driver mods ... those are the best for class owning
driver mods ... those are the best for class owning
| ellisnc | 10-16-2002 08:30 PM |
I don't care how good of a driver you are... 225 Kumhos on a 3100 pound car without a front LSD and 230hp is no match for a car with 245-265 Hoosiers w/ 400 hp LSD all around and 27-2800 pounds of weight.
Driver is soooo much of auto-x I won't argue that... a couple weeks ago I finished 2nd in SM and beat cars with more tire and more power than me. I think I was a good 200 pounds less than any of them though. However it's a challenge to me to learn how to drive the car better and in doing that learn how to tune the suspension and find out how light I can make the car.
Driver is soooo much of auto-x I won't argue that... a couple weeks ago I finished 2nd in SM and beat cars with more tire and more power than me. I think I was a good 200 pounds less than any of them though. However it's a challenge to me to learn how to drive the car better and in doing that learn how to tune the suspension and find out how light I can make the car.
| DiMensionX | 10-17-2002 12:37 PM |
Jension, you are right, AND wrong at the same time. Driver skill is the #1, reread my posts and you'll see that I agree.
Now, your wrong as well because as Ellis, and at least 10 other (damn good drivers) in lurk mode will tell you HP/lbs ratio and overall weight for nibleness is NOT a cover up for bad driving skills, it allows a good driver to drive the same car more competatively.
Just because our cars are capable at 300+ at the wheels DOES NOT eliminate the fact I SMOKE tires in corners because of one reason, weight. HP wise my car CAN hang with the Z06's, unless they go to the same extremes I have with the motor:D . Now, you pull the car down to ~2500lbs and corner weight and balance it. And your talking a BEAST to be reconed with. Get bigger tires you say, same problem, HP/LBs ratio. Nimbleness.
Ellis, I hate to break it too you but you have to put the washer bottle back in:-). Seriously. Been down that road and it's "an illegal mod". The hard part of making this happen is the fact that if the "Rule Book" does not allow something SPECIFICALLY then it is NOT legal:( . Washer resovoir removal is not legal according to the book.
Oh, and one more thing, DON'T remove the brake backing plates. You should hear my cars brakes these days, SQUEEEL like a pig. Leave them on and learn to love them:-), they don't weigh jack anyway.
Shawn
Now, your wrong as well because as Ellis, and at least 10 other (damn good drivers) in lurk mode will tell you HP/lbs ratio and overall weight for nibleness is NOT a cover up for bad driving skills, it allows a good driver to drive the same car more competatively.
Just because our cars are capable at 300+ at the wheels DOES NOT eliminate the fact I SMOKE tires in corners because of one reason, weight. HP wise my car CAN hang with the Z06's, unless they go to the same extremes I have with the motor:D . Now, you pull the car down to ~2500lbs and corner weight and balance it. And your talking a BEAST to be reconed with. Get bigger tires you say, same problem, HP/LBs ratio. Nimbleness.
Ellis, I hate to break it too you but you have to put the washer bottle back in:-). Seriously. Been down that road and it's "an illegal mod". The hard part of making this happen is the fact that if the "Rule Book" does not allow something SPECIFICALLY then it is NOT legal:( . Washer resovoir removal is not legal according to the book.
Oh, and one more thing, DON'T remove the brake backing plates. You should hear my cars brakes these days, SQUEEEL like a pig. Leave them on and learn to love them:-), they don't weigh jack anyway.
Shawn
| ellisnc | 10-17-2002 03:54 PM |
that's true, I think in the rules it does state that if something is not mentioned then it's basically illegal. So essentially the only things legal to remove in Smod are rear seat, radio, A/C, and spare tire? Seems like that's the case.
I'll leave the bottle out until someone protests me. Anyway, I think it would be fun to see what you could get away with that is not per se breaking the rules. Like the wiper motor kind of thing...
Anyway, the key is to get the car as light as possible with the best weight balance possible with as much tire as possible and the most power possible.
What frightens me most in conversations like this is that there's not much talk of LSD's.
I'll leave the bottle out until someone protests me. Anyway, I think it would be fun to see what you could get away with that is not per se breaking the rules. Like the wiper motor kind of thing...
Anyway, the key is to get the car as light as possible with the best weight balance possible with as much tire as possible and the most power possible.
What frightens me most in conversations like this is that there's not much talk of LSD's.
| aspera | 10-26-2002 04:41 AM |
I miss the bumper beam thread:)
[url]http://oakos.com/wrx/weights.htm[/url]
This might be helpful. It lists the weights for various WRX parts. I bet one of you guys compiled the list.:)
I'd add the WRX rear bumper weighs 30 pounds.
I'm still not clear on the fender rules. Can you slap on some Jeep fender flares? The 4x4 shop down the road at Topeka has them. That might be an interesting look for an Impreza L.:P
This might be helpful. It lists the weights for various WRX parts. I bet one of you guys compiled the list.:)
I'd add the WRX rear bumper weighs 30 pounds.
I'm still not clear on the fender rules. Can you slap on some Jeep fender flares? The 4x4 shop down the road at Topeka has them. That might be an interesting look for an Impreza L.:P
| aspera | 10-26-2002 05:03 AM |
Can the parking brakes and handle go?
| ellisnc | 10-26-2002 07:16 AM |
it says the parking brake has to stay... whether or not that just entails the cable or the rear brake caliper I don't know :)
| SpeedRacer-X | 10-26-2002 12:28 PM |
You could add fender flares but most won't because of the weight. I know, they are light, but in SM you can extend past the wheel wells.
Shawn
Shawn
| aspera | 10-27-2002 02:01 AM |
I love illegal mods
Thanks for being polite and not biting my head off when I ask stupid questions and throw out crazy ideas. I just figured that parking a car wasn't too complicated. Leaving it in gear, or chocking it like and aircraft could save a few pounds. The parking brake handle and bracket look pretty heavy. Maybe they could be lightened.
| aspera | 11-03-2002 06:42 PM |
ttt
| TheWRX | 11-03-2002 08:14 PM |
I'm not an expert for SM rules, but my interpretation is that the parking brake has to stay. The rules give almost unlimited freedom for power and drivetrain mods, and almost as much for the suspension (except for not changing the attachement points). But they are fairly restrictive when it comes to weight reduction, and they require you to keep everything that is needed for a street driven car. That's what sets them apart from the Prepared classes, where cars can be gutted.
| aspera | 11-03-2002 08:32 PM |
Surely an aluminum parking brake would be legal.
| ellisnc | 11-03-2002 08:46 PM |
took out the rear seat belts and all the bracing under the rear seats since no one will be sitting back there now anyway.
Also I took out the stereo. The headunit I replaced with a double DIN plate Honda part that came on the CX hatch. Removed the speakers in the front doors (woofer and tweeter) and the Sub under the seat.
Also I took out the stereo. The headunit I replaced with a double DIN plate Honda part that came on the CX hatch. Removed the speakers in the front doors (woofer and tweeter) and the Sub under the seat.
| SpeedRacer-X | 11-03-2002 09:13 PM |
Hey Ellis, my rear is gutted as well, I left the cross-brace though under the seat.
I "thought" I read that the actual seat belts had to stay in the book, I need to reread it again to see as they weigh a fair bit. I thought I also read that a 5 point was cool to install however the stock restraint has to be there as well, I'll read up on it.
Shawn
I "thought" I read that the actual seat belts had to stay in the book, I need to reread it again to see as they weigh a fair bit. I thought I also read that a 5 point was cool to install however the stock restraint has to be there as well, I'll read up on it.
Shawn
| ellisnc | 11-03-2002 09:22 PM |
it allows removal of seatbelts to allow installation of harnesses
yeah I could leave them in and still use the eyebolts, but for auto-x I had to remove the rear belts to install the bolts ;)
yeah I could leave them in and still use the eyebolts, but for auto-x I had to remove the rear belts to install the bolts ;)
| aspera | 11-03-2002 11:13 PM |
SOA: build a North American only lightweight WRX Limited
Don't you wish Subaru would just sell a 'stripper' WRX. It would save you time and money. That money could be spent on engine and suspension bits. I know they sell the RA in other markets, but that's not the same thing. I'm talking about a plain ole US market WRX that is built for speed.
Other companies do it. Dodge Neon ACR, BMW M3 Lightweight, 1LE Camaro, etc.
There is a cost for SOA not doing this. They will not rule the world if they don't rule the racetrack. Consumers vote with their dollars, and those dollars don't go to also-rans or DNFs. SOA has chosen to give WRX buyers limited options. Buyers can't option up or down a WRX to any great extent without using warranty voiding parts.
I challenge SOA to offer a limited edition WRX for the US market. They are no strangers to limited editions. This limited edition should be basically an STI Type RA Spec C, but with a standard WRX powertrain, except for lower gearing. That's it. It's so simple. Make about 500 of them and tell us what secret option code to use.:)
Other companies do it. Dodge Neon ACR, BMW M3 Lightweight, 1LE Camaro, etc.
There is a cost for SOA not doing this. They will not rule the world if they don't rule the racetrack. Consumers vote with their dollars, and those dollars don't go to also-rans or DNFs. SOA has chosen to give WRX buyers limited options. Buyers can't option up or down a WRX to any great extent without using warranty voiding parts.
I challenge SOA to offer a limited edition WRX for the US market. They are no strangers to limited editions. This limited edition should be basically an STI Type RA Spec C, but with a standard WRX powertrain, except for lower gearing. That's it. It's so simple. Make about 500 of them and tell us what secret option code to use.:)
| SpeedRacer-X | 11-04-2002 12:15 AM |
Make that 1000 builds to the US market I believe per SCCA rules.
Shawn
Shawn
| aspera | 11-04-2002 01:13 AM |
Yeah! what he said! Make it 1500 just to be on the safe side.:)
| ellisnc | 11-04-2002 06:27 AM |
I seriously doubt they could sell 1000 of them here... but then again look at the ITR.
I've been complaining about this ever since I bought the car.
please give us a car with no A/C, stereo, airbags (I think they have to have these for NHTSA standards), melt sheets, undercoating, cruise control, put the thin glass in, make the rear windows crank up.
I wonder what the cost would be on one of these?
$20k?
I've been complaining about this ever since I bought the car.
please give us a car with no A/C, stereo, airbags (I think they have to have these for NHTSA standards), melt sheets, undercoating, cruise control, put the thin glass in, make the rear windows crank up.
I wonder what the cost would be on one of these?
$20k?
| TheWRX | 11-04-2002 10:38 AM |
I also doubt that they could sell 1000. The WRX cannot be used for SCCA road racing (turbo, AWD), which makes the market more limited than for some of the other cars mentioned.
| Chris F | 11-04-2002 12:51 PM |
It is great to see so many Subies getting into SM! I hope to see all of you at Nationals next year. I was surprised to see only 1 other Subie in SM this year!
Chris F
Chris F
| SpeedRacer-X | 11-04-2002 03:10 PM |
Chris, good job at Nationals!
I do have a question for you, what made you decide to run 18's on the WRX?
If you would like to discuss it offline, shoot me an email at [email][email protected][/email].
Take care,
Shawn
I do have a question for you, what made you decide to run 18's on the WRX?
If you would like to discuss it offline, shoot me an email at [email][email protected][/email].
Take care,
Shawn
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