| Dolphin Overton | 10-24-2002 04:00 AM |
Why all this talk of 17" wheels? Seems like with the WRX's tall gearing you would want to run really wide 16 inch wheels with some wide R compounds(low profile to shorten final drive).... Am I retarded?
| aspera | 10-24-2002 05:18 AM |
assuming 245s are legalized
I must be retarded, too!:) That seems like the way to go.
16x8 wheels would let you run 245s, right. Low profile 245s would be grippy and increase gearing. They would also lower the car without changing camber. Lowering the car helps the tires work more evenly, right? Lowering the car *could* also help ground effect downforce.
Many will keep stock sized brakes, due to cost or the nature of the competition. If the stock brakes are retained, then only 16 inch wheels are needed to clear them. 17 inch wheels move the rims further away from the center, and make the wheel harder to spin up.
This seems like a place where the benefits of very short sidewalls would outweigh the drawbacks. Maybe someone can make inboard brakes so WRX owners can use 13 inch wheels.:)
16x8 wheels would let you run 245s, right. Low profile 245s would be grippy and increase gearing. They would also lower the car without changing camber. Lowering the car helps the tires work more evenly, right? Lowering the car *could* also help ground effect downforce.
Many will keep stock sized brakes, due to cost or the nature of the competition. If the stock brakes are retained, then only 16 inch wheels are needed to clear them. 17 inch wheels move the rims further away from the center, and make the wheel harder to spin up.
This seems like a place where the benefits of very short sidewalls would outweigh the drawbacks. Maybe someone can make inboard brakes so WRX owners can use 13 inch wheels.:)
| trhoppe | 10-24-2002 09:15 AM |
You guys are exactly correct.
So do something....find me a 245 competitive street tire in a 16" wheel, and then when you can't, you will realize that we will have to go to 17s to run 245s ;)
We will find out in 2 days whether the 245 rule stays or goes. We can have some real discussion this weekend......
-Tom
So do something....find me a 245 competitive street tire in a 16" wheel, and then when you can't, you will realize that we will have to go to 17s to run 245s ;)
We will find out in 2 days whether the 245 rule stays or goes. We can have some real discussion this weekend......
-Tom
| rockt104 | 10-24-2002 03:24 PM |
R-compounds?? i know about the 245 question, but are they thinking about modifiying the rules to allow r-compounds too, or was that just a typo? that would suck by the way.
| trhoppe | 10-24-2002 04:20 PM |
That was either
a) typo
b) not knowing that STX was on street tires
They is, never was, and never will be a proposal to allow R compunds in ST classes :)
a) typo
b) not knowing that STX was on street tires
They is, never was, and never will be a proposal to allow R compunds in ST classes :)
| Dussander | 10-24-2002 04:35 PM |
[QUOTE]They is, never was, and never will be a proposal to allow R compunds in ST classes [/QUOTE]
Heh? STR class from last year??
Heh? STR class from last year??
| Subdued | 10-24-2002 11:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rockt104 [/i]
[B]R-compounds?? i know about the 245 question, but are they thinking about modifiying the rules to allow r-compounds too, or was that just a typo? that would suck by the way. [/B][/QUOTE]ST(R) was a Regional optional class. STS with R compounds.
[B]R-compounds?? i know about the 245 question, but are they thinking about modifiying the rules to allow r-compounds too, or was that just a typo? that would suck by the way. [/B][/QUOTE]ST(R) was a Regional optional class. STS with R compounds.
| trhoppe | 10-24-2002 11:39 PM |
Ok, let me change that to a "successfull ST class on R compounds"
:p
-Tom
:p
-Tom
| Cosworth | 10-25-2002 01:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]
Really? Is this how you interpret the current rule, stated below:
[b]
Only factory limited slip differentials (LSD) are allowed on AWD vehicles, as defined in Section 12.4. For AWD vehicles that did not come with any type of limited slip differential (including center differential or transfer case), a single aftermarket LSD may be added. 2WD vehicles may use any LSD unit.
[/b]
So, how do you convince "others" that the center diff is not a type of limited slip diff? I'm curious to know...
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Tell em its a slipper clutch. ;)
[B]
Really? Is this how you interpret the current rule, stated below:
[b]
Only factory limited slip differentials (LSD) are allowed on AWD vehicles, as defined in Section 12.4. For AWD vehicles that did not come with any type of limited slip differential (including center differential or transfer case), a single aftermarket LSD may be added. 2WD vehicles may use any LSD unit.
[/b]
So, how do you convince "others" that the center diff is not a type of limited slip diff? I'm curious to know...
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Tell em its a slipper clutch. ;)
| aspera | 10-25-2002 07:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]You guys are exactly correct.
So do something....find me a 245 competitive street tire in a 16" wheel, and then when you can't, you will realize that we will have to go to 17s to run 245s ;)
We will find out in 2 days whether the 245 rule stays or goes. We can have some real discussion this weekend......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I figured that out after I typed up my little post. I wasn't about to delete all my hard work.:) Anyway, I'm building a road car. Potenza SO-3's are fine for me.
[B]You guys are exactly correct.
So do something....find me a 245 competitive street tire in a 16" wheel, and then when you can't, you will realize that we will have to go to 17s to run 245s ;)
We will find out in 2 days whether the 245 rule stays or goes. We can have some real discussion this weekend......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I figured that out after I typed up my little post. I wasn't about to delete all my hard work.:) Anyway, I'm building a road car. Potenza SO-3's are fine for me.
| MNbiker | 10-26-2002 07:47 AM |
Re: Re: Wow!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]On the remapping of the Stock ECU.... has anyone heard how to do this? I haven't seen anything on this club (I'd like to think we'd know) that has come up with a way.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
How about the new DeltaECU from Ecutek (uses stock ECU)? This could end up being the hot setup, as it totally eliminates a protestable piggyback ECU AND gives you complete control over timing & fuel maps. This is pretty new, but has been in testing in the UK for some time, and should be available in plenty of time for the '03 season. Check out this thread:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260555[/url]
The biggest limitation looks to be Ecutek's decision to only sell the programming software to tuners, but that shouldn't be too tough to work around. The other big plus is nice integration with DeltaDash, so you willbe able to do logging during runs, then modify maps based on the data logged.
Thoughts?
Steve
[B]On the remapping of the Stock ECU.... has anyone heard how to do this? I haven't seen anything on this club (I'd like to think we'd know) that has come up with a way.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
How about the new DeltaECU from Ecutek (uses stock ECU)? This could end up being the hot setup, as it totally eliminates a protestable piggyback ECU AND gives you complete control over timing & fuel maps. This is pretty new, but has been in testing in the UK for some time, and should be available in plenty of time for the '03 season. Check out this thread:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260555[/url]
The biggest limitation looks to be Ecutek's decision to only sell the programming software to tuners, but that shouldn't be too tough to work around. The other big plus is nice integration with DeltaDash, so you willbe able to do logging during runs, then modify maps based on the data logged.
Thoughts?
Steve
| trhoppe | 10-26-2002 04:11 PM |
The thing about the DeltaECU is that IMHO it will not be much better then a unichip. You will be able to control timing and fuel, the timing control will be more sophisticated, but it doesnt have all the benefits of the UTEC. Especially the end user reprogram and the launch control. The one cool thing will be logging, but that will be another $400 bringing the total cost of this sucker to $1500 vs $500 for a vishnu unichip.
I myself will be going with the Unichip because of my sponsor, but I would still like to see what this thing could do.
-Tom
I myself will be going with the Unichip because of my sponsor, but I would still like to see what this thing could do.
-Tom
| tkm | 10-26-2002 07:58 PM |
[QUOTE]The ITR is the LEAST of my worries. They will not stand a chance with 245 KDs on my car and 300hp. Its the 90 civic si that Im worried about.[/QUOTE]
Oh really? What about an ITR on 225's next year :) You know, we still have some development to do as well, not only on the car but on the driver too.
This winter will be busy for all of us, and the outcome of the rules will determine a lot. But, don't be so premature with your predictions! :P
-Todd
#15 STX
Oh really? What about an ITR on 225's next year :) You know, we still have some development to do as well, not only on the car but on the driver too.
This winter will be busy for all of us, and the outcome of the rules will determine a lot. But, don't be so premature with your predictions! :P
-Todd
#15 STX
| trhoppe | 10-26-2002 08:53 PM |
Hey, what are you doing on i-club :lol:
I think with the 245s you guys will be in trouble. Now if the 225s stay, it will be a fair straight up fight. You said it yourself, the 245s have THAT much more tread.
Either way, we will still get our arses wooped if the 90 civic "hybrid" shows up with a good driver.
-Tom
I think with the 245s you guys will be in trouble. Now if the 225s stay, it will be a fair straight up fight. You said it yourself, the 245s have THAT much more tread.
Either way, we will still get our arses wooped if the 90 civic "hybrid" shows up with a good driver.
-Tom
| ChrisDP | 10-26-2002 09:56 PM |
LOL, Todd's doing the same thing I did when I got on I-Club. Lurking :devil: I'll admit it... why do you think my name is something as innocuous as ChrisDP when it was AcuraRacer111 on every other forum, then WRXRacer111 when I got the Subaru. heheheheh.
| Subdued | 10-27-2002 09:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]We will find out in 2 days whether the 245 rule stays or goes. We can have some real discussion this weekend......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]Has anyone heard the verdict on this one yet?
[B]We will find out in 2 days whether the 245 rule stays or goes. We can have some real discussion this weekend......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]Has anyone heard the verdict on this one yet?
| aspera | 10-29-2002 05:12 AM |
I have a question
Let's say you have an Impreza WRX and an Impreza RS transmission sitting side by side. The low geared RS parts find their way into the WRX transmission. All of the parts are USDM Impreza parts. What class would this tranny be legal in?
This tranny is for sale in the I-Club classifieds.
EDIT: I read the rules sticky. I guess that bumps you into SM.
This tranny is for sale in the I-Club classifieds.
EDIT: I read the rules sticky. I guess that bumps you into SM.
| KC | 10-29-2002 07:12 AM |
Re: I have a question
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by aspera [/i]
[B]Let's say you have an Impreza WRX and an Impreza RS transmission sitting side by side. The low geared RS parts find their way into the WRX transmission. All of the parts are USDM Impreza parts. What class would this tranny be legal in?
This tranny is for sale in the I-Club classifieds.
EDIT: I read the rules sticky. I guess that bumps you into SM. [/B][/QUOTE]Correct, SM. The RS and the WRX are not on the same line in SP, so there's no update/backdate between the two models.
--kC
[B]Let's say you have an Impreza WRX and an Impreza RS transmission sitting side by side. The low geared RS parts find their way into the WRX transmission. All of the parts are USDM Impreza parts. What class would this tranny be legal in?
This tranny is for sale in the I-Club classifieds.
EDIT: I read the rules sticky. I guess that bumps you into SM. [/B][/QUOTE]Correct, SM. The RS and the WRX are not on the same line in SP, so there's no update/backdate between the two models.
--kC
| Subdued | 10-29-2002 08:39 AM |
See third previous post.
| KC | 10-29-2002 09:18 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subdued [/i]
[B]See third previous post. [/B][/QUOTE]Do you mean Tom's question?
If that's the case, if it did pass, I'm sure it will be printed in the next FasTrack. We just have to wait and see as that's the 'official' form of communication from the SCCA as far as rules go.
If not, dunno what you mean by 'see third previous post" sorry.
--kC
[B]See third previous post. [/B][/QUOTE]Do you mean Tom's question?
If that's the case, if it did pass, I'm sure it will be printed in the next FasTrack. We just have to wait and see as that's the 'official' form of communication from the SCCA as far as rules go.
If not, dunno what you mean by 'see third previous post" sorry.
--kC
| Subdued | 10-29-2002 09:34 AM |
Sorry for the confusion KC. I will watch for FasTrack.
| dachoe | 10-29-2002 03:21 PM |
any of you guys using whiteline diff lock bolts? i'm not sure if this is legal or not in stx. supposedly, it makes you a lil more tail happy.
| trhoppe | 10-29-2002 03:35 PM |
nope, not legal.......
| MNbiker | 11-04-2002 10:50 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]The UTEC is illegal for the way it modifies timing, and not the boost. BUT the way the SCCA protests boost mods (as I found out), is to hook up a calibrated standard boost gauge and test the boost on the car, even if you have your own gauge. You could modify your own gauge to not show over 15psi :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
It seems like there will soon be several options for modifying the stock ECU, which brings up an interesting question - how will the SCCA police what's done with boost control in a stock ECU? It will be pretty simple to measure peak boost, but what would stop someone from running modified boost mapping, with unaltered peak boost? There should be some noticeable performance benefits in such re-mapping, but how would the SCCA be able to spot it, short of comparing your ECU map to a stock map? I assume such re-mapping would be illegal, as it would be a modification of the stock boost control? Or not?
Japanese Auto (Yoshio)
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260555&highlight=ECU+program[/url]
ECUtek
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260555&highlight=ECU+program[/url]
Cobb Tuning
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=266829&highlight=ECU+program[/url]
Steve
[B]The UTEC is illegal for the way it modifies timing, and not the boost. BUT the way the SCCA protests boost mods (as I found out), is to hook up a calibrated standard boost gauge and test the boost on the car, even if you have your own gauge. You could modify your own gauge to not show over 15psi :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
It seems like there will soon be several options for modifying the stock ECU, which brings up an interesting question - how will the SCCA police what's done with boost control in a stock ECU? It will be pretty simple to measure peak boost, but what would stop someone from running modified boost mapping, with unaltered peak boost? There should be some noticeable performance benefits in such re-mapping, but how would the SCCA be able to spot it, short of comparing your ECU map to a stock map? I assume such re-mapping would be illegal, as it would be a modification of the stock boost control? Or not?
Japanese Auto (Yoshio)
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260555&highlight=ECU+program[/url]
ECUtek
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260555&highlight=ECU+program[/url]
Cobb Tuning
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=266829&highlight=ECU+program[/url]
Steve
| trhoppe | 11-04-2002 11:00 AM |
I think thats about the only way you will be able to spot it. If someone is determined enough to cheat, they will find a way. But if you are SURE someone is cheating to beat you. Spend the $100 and have his ECU impounded. They would pull it from the car and get it read by one of these "dealers". Then you could see if the boost map would be modified.
It will be pretty easy to spot IMHO. If someone is kicking ass, ask them to pull the carpet up. If there is a unichip w/o a boost module in there, no problem. If there is NOTHING there, red flag. You could ask to inpound the car and take a ride in it, or something similar. If it *feels* like the boost is coming on stronger, then protest it.
-Tom
It will be pretty easy to spot IMHO. If someone is kicking ass, ask them to pull the carpet up. If there is a unichip w/o a boost module in there, no problem. If there is NOTHING there, red flag. You could ask to inpound the car and take a ride in it, or something similar. If it *feels* like the boost is coming on stronger, then protest it.
-Tom
| MNbiker | 11-04-2002 01:00 PM |
Tom,
Have you settled on an ECU vendor yet? It might be helpful if several of us spend our money the same place, to encourage the development of better STX-legal maps.
Also, have you heard anything through the grapevine yet, regarding 245-width tires?
Thanks!
Steve
Have you settled on an ECU vendor yet? It might be helpful if several of us spend our money the same place, to encourage the development of better STX-legal maps.
Also, have you heard anything through the grapevine yet, regarding 245-width tires?
Thanks!
Steve
| AWMIII | 11-04-2002 01:45 PM |
Tom is a bit sensitive after his protests this year.
| trhoppe | 11-04-2002 01:58 PM |
[QUOTE]Tom is a bit sensitive after his protests this year.[/QUOTE] hahahaha.....
Good point. I got protested a whole bunch this year, so Im doing the same thing for next season that I did this year. Make sure you are 1000% legal so if you do get protested, there is no way in hell of you losing.
-Tom
Good point. I got protested a whole bunch this year, so Im doing the same thing for next season that I did this year. Make sure you are 1000% legal so if you do get protested, there is no way in hell of you losing.
-Tom
| ellisnc | 11-04-2002 07:52 PM |
just wondering if you were mostly protested by ITR's or other Subies?
| Orion | 11-04-2002 10:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ellisnc [/i]
[B]just wondering if you were mostly protested by ITR's or other Subies? [/B][/QUOTE]
Another Subie!:lol:
Tom found that he was actually running LESS boost than the guy that protested him!:D
The ITR's at Nats were ready to pounce on the Vishnu chip, but I think they dropped the issue when they won. It would have been interesting to see the outcome of the protest. I think they were concerned that the Vishnu chip was upping boost, but I stayed out of it since I was too frustrated with my setup. I'll have to ask the ITR guys when I get up there.
[B]just wondering if you were mostly protested by ITR's or other Subies? [/B][/QUOTE]
Another Subie!:lol:
Tom found that he was actually running LESS boost than the guy that protested him!:D
The ITR's at Nats were ready to pounce on the Vishnu chip, but I think they dropped the issue when they won. It would have been interesting to see the outcome of the protest. I think they were concerned that the Vishnu chip was upping boost, but I stayed out of it since I was too frustrated with my setup. I'll have to ask the ITR guys when I get up there.
| aspera | 11-04-2002 10:54 PM |
legal, dirty trick, or motor-blower-upper?
Um, what if the ECU is the same, but it reads boost pressure after the intercooler? What I mean is, you plug up the nipple on the compressor outlet, and get your boost reading from near the throttle body. The stock ECU sees a little bit less pressure, but is itself unchanged.
| trhoppe | 11-04-2002 10:55 PM |
Actually got protested by some ITRs as well, but that was earlier in the year.
Im a "equal opportunity protestee" :lol: :lol:
[QUOTE]Um, what if the ECU is the same, but it reads boost pressure after the intercooler? What I mean is, you plug up the nipple on the compressor outlet, and get your boost reading from near the throttle body. The stock ECU sees a little bit less pressure, but is itself unchanged.[/QUOTE] What is not explicitly allowed in the rules is illegal....sorry ;)
-Tom
Im a "equal opportunity protestee" :lol: :lol:
[QUOTE]Um, what if the ECU is the same, but it reads boost pressure after the intercooler? What I mean is, you plug up the nipple on the compressor outlet, and get your boost reading from near the throttle body. The stock ECU sees a little bit less pressure, but is itself unchanged.[/QUOTE] What is not explicitly allowed in the rules is illegal....sorry ;)
-Tom
| efoss28 | 11-05-2002 11:52 AM |
Tom any word on the 245's yet????
| KC | 11-05-2002 12:07 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by efoss28 [/i]
[B]Tom any word on the 245's yet???? [/B][/QUOTE]Nothing's changed since the 29th.... it should be addressed in the next FasTrack.
--kC
[B]Tom any word on the 245's yet???? [/B][/QUOTE]Nothing's changed since the 29th.... it should be addressed in the next FasTrack.
--kC
| tkm | 02-06-2003 10:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]
Another Subie!:lol:
Tom found that he was actually running LESS boost than the guy that protested him!:D
The ITR's at Nats were ready to pounce on the Vishnu chip, but I think they dropped the issue when they won. It would have been interesting to see the outcome of the protest. I think they were concerned that the Vishnu chip was upping boost, but I stayed out of it since I was too frustrated with my setup. I'll have to ask the ITR guys when I get up there. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thread back from the dead. Yes, I do lurk every now and then (like now).
Few things:
1) No one knew anything about the vishnu chip at nats outside of the WRX community. The rest of us that read Sport Compact Car with the vishnu article were worried because we know what can be done with boost. When Vogel was launching out of the corner soooo much harder than any other WRX on course, it did indeed raise an eyebrow, especially since I beat him by 4-5 seconds at the Peru tour a month or so earlier (and now he's ahead of us after day 1). So yes, we were ready to pounce. However, we decided not to put a dark cloud over a new class that was doing so well. And frankly, how the heck were we going to prove that it was illegal? I'm 100% positive no two STX WRX's at nats had the same boost curve. And who's to say that an exhaust won't add 3 lbs of part throttle boost? I don't know enough about how the turbo works on a WRX to know any better if peak boost remained the same, but if it hit harder, faster, whatever.
Keep in mind that we could only protest, at latest, before the start of the second day from what I had heard. This is long before any ITR was setting on top (although we knew we were going to do good on that course).
Frankly, I'm hoping next year all cars keep themselves honest and no protests need to be filed at all. Ms. Cleo tells me that this will be tough to police with turbos, but I hope it all turns out for the better. I don't mind losing, as long as it isn't to an illegal car. We all put a lot of money into trick legal parts and minute chassis setup details to lose to some guy simply upping the boost with a set of coilovers.
Heck, I could do a full motor buildup and only gain 20hp. You guys can pull out your laptop and make 50. :)
[B]
Another Subie!:lol:
Tom found that he was actually running LESS boost than the guy that protested him!:D
The ITR's at Nats were ready to pounce on the Vishnu chip, but I think they dropped the issue when they won. It would have been interesting to see the outcome of the protest. I think they were concerned that the Vishnu chip was upping boost, but I stayed out of it since I was too frustrated with my setup. I'll have to ask the ITR guys when I get up there. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thread back from the dead. Yes, I do lurk every now and then (like now).
Few things:
1) No one knew anything about the vishnu chip at nats outside of the WRX community. The rest of us that read Sport Compact Car with the vishnu article were worried because we know what can be done with boost. When Vogel was launching out of the corner soooo much harder than any other WRX on course, it did indeed raise an eyebrow, especially since I beat him by 4-5 seconds at the Peru tour a month or so earlier (and now he's ahead of us after day 1). So yes, we were ready to pounce. However, we decided not to put a dark cloud over a new class that was doing so well. And frankly, how the heck were we going to prove that it was illegal? I'm 100% positive no two STX WRX's at nats had the same boost curve. And who's to say that an exhaust won't add 3 lbs of part throttle boost? I don't know enough about how the turbo works on a WRX to know any better if peak boost remained the same, but if it hit harder, faster, whatever.
Keep in mind that we could only protest, at latest, before the start of the second day from what I had heard. This is long before any ITR was setting on top (although we knew we were going to do good on that course).
Frankly, I'm hoping next year all cars keep themselves honest and no protests need to be filed at all. Ms. Cleo tells me that this will be tough to police with turbos, but I hope it all turns out for the better. I don't mind losing, as long as it isn't to an illegal car. We all put a lot of money into trick legal parts and minute chassis setup details to lose to some guy simply upping the boost with a set of coilovers.
Heck, I could do a full motor buildup and only gain 20hp. You guys can pull out your laptop and make 50. :)
| Subdued | 02-07-2003 01:45 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tkm [/i]
[B]
Thread back from the dead. Yes, I do lurk every now and then (like now).
Few things:
1) No one knew anything about the vishnu chip at nats outside of the WRX community. The rest of us that read Sport Compact Car with the vishnu article were worried because we know what can be done with boost. When Vogel was launching out of the corner soooo much harder than any other WRX on course, it did indeed raise an eyebrow, especially since I beat him by 4-5 seconds at the Peru tour a month or so earlier (and now he's ahead of us after day 1). So yes, we were ready to pounce. However, we decided not to put a dark cloud over a new class that was doing so well. And frankly, how the heck were we going to prove that it was illegal? I'm 100% positive no two STX WRX's at nats had the same boost curve. And who's to say that an exhaust won't add 3 lbs of part throttle boost? I don't know enough about how the turbo works on a WRX to know any better if peak boost remained the same, but if it hit harder, faster, whatever.
Keep in mind that we could only protest, at latest, before the start of the second day from what I had heard. This is long before any ITR was setting on top (although we knew we were going to do good on that course).
Frankly, I'm hoping next year all cars keep themselves honest and no protests need to be filed at all. Ms. Cleo tells me that this will be tough to police with turbos, but I hope it all turns out for the better. I don't mind losing, as long as it isn't to an illegal car. We all put a lot of money into trick legal parts and minute chassis setup details to lose to some guy simply upping the boost with a set of coilovers.
Heck, I could do a full motor buildup and only gain 20hp. You guys can pull out your laptop and make 50. :) [/B][/QUOTE]How many horses are you gaining with a remapped ignition, fuel curve, and VVT? There has to be a few horespower in there for you also without opening up the engine.
[B]
Thread back from the dead. Yes, I do lurk every now and then (like now).
Few things:
1) No one knew anything about the vishnu chip at nats outside of the WRX community. The rest of us that read Sport Compact Car with the vishnu article were worried because we know what can be done with boost. When Vogel was launching out of the corner soooo much harder than any other WRX on course, it did indeed raise an eyebrow, especially since I beat him by 4-5 seconds at the Peru tour a month or so earlier (and now he's ahead of us after day 1). So yes, we were ready to pounce. However, we decided not to put a dark cloud over a new class that was doing so well. And frankly, how the heck were we going to prove that it was illegal? I'm 100% positive no two STX WRX's at nats had the same boost curve. And who's to say that an exhaust won't add 3 lbs of part throttle boost? I don't know enough about how the turbo works on a WRX to know any better if peak boost remained the same, but if it hit harder, faster, whatever.
Keep in mind that we could only protest, at latest, before the start of the second day from what I had heard. This is long before any ITR was setting on top (although we knew we were going to do good on that course).
Frankly, I'm hoping next year all cars keep themselves honest and no protests need to be filed at all. Ms. Cleo tells me that this will be tough to police with turbos, but I hope it all turns out for the better. I don't mind losing, as long as it isn't to an illegal car. We all put a lot of money into trick legal parts and minute chassis setup details to lose to some guy simply upping the boost with a set of coilovers.
Heck, I could do a full motor buildup and only gain 20hp. You guys can pull out your laptop and make 50. :) [/B][/QUOTE]How many horses are you gaining with a remapped ignition, fuel curve, and VVT? There has to be a few horespower in there for you also without opening up the engine.
| trhoppe | 02-07-2003 08:30 AM |
[QUOTE]How many horses are you gaining with a remapped ignition, fuel curve, and VVT? There has to be a few horespower in there for you also without opening up the engine.[/QUOTE] Probably 1/4th the HP Im gaining with a unichip, exhaust and K&N. The beaty of turbos!
Wish I had the brakes of the TypeR though. Those things rocked my world when I codrove shawn's car at a local event last year.
-Tom
Wish I had the brakes of the TypeR though. Those things rocked my world when I codrove shawn's car at a local event last year.
-Tom
| Subdued | 02-07-2003 08:47 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B] Probably 1/4th the HP Im gaining with a unichip, exhaust and K&N. The beaty of turbos!
Wish I had the brakes of the TypeR though. Those things rocked my world when I codrove shawn's car at a local event last year.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]Maybe it is time to get a Unichip?
[B] Probably 1/4th the HP Im gaining with a unichip, exhaust and K&N. The beaty of turbos!
Wish I had the brakes of the TypeR though. Those things rocked my world when I codrove shawn's car at a local event last year.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]Maybe it is time to get a Unichip?
| TheWRX | 02-07-2003 09:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tkm [/i]
[B]When Vogel was launching out of the corner soooo much harder than any other WRX on course, it did indeed raise an eyebrow, especially since I beat him by 4-5 seconds at the Peru tour a month or so earlier (and now he's ahead of us after day 1).[/B][/QUOTE]
His suspension was still stock when I ran against him in August, after the Peru event. I don't remember if he even had an uppipe/exhaust yet. So I'm fairly sure that there was [B]much[/B] more than a Unichip that he added to the car between Peru and Topeka, he basically went from close to bone stock to fully STX prepared. At least I assume that his car was fully set up by Nationals, I wasn't there.
[B]When Vogel was launching out of the corner soooo much harder than any other WRX on course, it did indeed raise an eyebrow, especially since I beat him by 4-5 seconds at the Peru tour a month or so earlier (and now he's ahead of us after day 1).[/B][/QUOTE]
His suspension was still stock when I ran against him in August, after the Peru event. I don't remember if he even had an uppipe/exhaust yet. So I'm fairly sure that there was [B]much[/B] more than a Unichip that he added to the car between Peru and Topeka, he basically went from close to bone stock to fully STX prepared. At least I assume that his car was fully set up by Nationals, I wasn't there.
| tkm | 02-07-2003 11:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]
His suspension was still stock when I ran against him in August, after the Peru event. I don't remember if he even had an uppipe/exhaust yet. So I'm fairly sure that there was [B]much[/B] more than a Unichip that he added to the car between Peru and Topeka, he basically went from close to bone stock to fully STX prepared. At least I assume that his car was fully set up by Nationals, I wasn't there. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, when his car was flat jumping out of the corners compared to KC, Kiko and a few of the other good Subaru's at nats, this is where we drew our conclusions from. I mean--the power difference was obvious. Several course workers even brought it to our attention.
[B]
His suspension was still stock when I ran against him in August, after the Peru event. I don't remember if he even had an uppipe/exhaust yet. So I'm fairly sure that there was [B]much[/B] more than a Unichip that he added to the car between Peru and Topeka, he basically went from close to bone stock to fully STX prepared. At least I assume that his car was fully set up by Nationals, I wasn't there. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, when his car was flat jumping out of the corners compared to KC, Kiko and a few of the other good Subaru's at nats, this is where we drew our conclusions from. I mean--the power difference was obvious. Several course workers even brought it to our attention.
| ChrisW | 02-07-2003 11:46 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subdued [/i]
[B]How many horses are you gaining with a remapped ignition, fuel curve, and VVT? There has to be a few horespower in there for you also without opening up the engine. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. I have seen the results of reprogramming the VVT on an ITR. that car is fricken fast!!! But along with the reprogramming he had also removed the rev-limiter. Honda VTEC engines don't last long past 9000 rpm...:eek:
[B]How many horses are you gaining with a remapped ignition, fuel curve, and VVT? There has to be a few horespower in there for you also without opening up the engine. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. I have seen the results of reprogramming the VVT on an ITR. that car is fricken fast!!! But along with the reprogramming he had also removed the rev-limiter. Honda VTEC engines don't last long past 9000 rpm...:eek:
| trhoppe | 02-07-2003 12:06 PM |
I dont want to question Jeff's car because it may or may not have been legal. For future reference todd, if a WRX was in question then you could nicely ask them to pull the passenger carpet up. If the ECU has a small 2x4" box with "The Program" written on it, attached to the ECU, that is the unichip. If that box has another little piece attached to it, that is the boost module and illegal. If that unichip is absent and the person's car is fast, then they are probably running an ecutek and that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
-Tom
-Tom
| KC | 02-07-2003 12:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tkm [/i]
[B]Well, when his car was flat jumping out of the corners compared to KC, Kiko and a few of the other good Subaru's at nats, this is where we drew our conclusions from. I mean--the power difference was obvious. Several course workers even brought it to our attention. [/B][/QUOTE] Because he was essentially the only one that had done any kind of power mods. (or could drive... *cough* Orion *cough* :D ) Both Kiko and I had what... an Intake and cat-back? Plus I had the heavier car on almost stock springs. Much will be changing this year. :)
Where do you stand on the vishnu unichip? Are you ok with the fact that it's legal after nationals? Thoughts?
--KC
[B]Well, when his car was flat jumping out of the corners compared to KC, Kiko and a few of the other good Subaru's at nats, this is where we drew our conclusions from. I mean--the power difference was obvious. Several course workers even brought it to our attention. [/B][/QUOTE] Because he was essentially the only one that had done any kind of power mods. (or could drive... *cough* Orion *cough* :D ) Both Kiko and I had what... an Intake and cat-back? Plus I had the heavier car on almost stock springs. Much will be changing this year. :)
Where do you stand on the vishnu unichip? Are you ok with the fact that it's legal after nationals? Thoughts?
--KC
| Orion | 02-07-2003 12:51 PM |
I suck at teh driving. :lol: That was hands down my worst performance ever. I got smoked, but I honestly was expecting that. Lesson learned: Don't put Koni's and brakes on the week before Nats...
Jeff had some Tein's installed (HA or RA, can't remeber exactly). That car was hooking up nicely, but I think he was still tweaking his settings. I talked with him for a while about it out on corner 2. As far as power goes, he clearly had an edge over the rest of us WRX's, but it was perfectly legit.
I'm really looking forward to running with Todd, Jeff, and Sean this year. Like I told Sean, anytime you ITR guys want to drive my car, the seats open. I'd be more than happy to show you all the "possible" cheats we have. I'm confident KC, Jeff, Kiko, and the rest of the Subies I talked to were legal for the some of the same reason's Todd mentioned: It's an outstanding new class. I don't think anyone wanted to mess it up by cheating.
Jeff had some Tein's installed (HA or RA, can't remeber exactly). That car was hooking up nicely, but I think he was still tweaking his settings. I talked with him for a while about it out on corner 2. As far as power goes, he clearly had an edge over the rest of us WRX's, but it was perfectly legit.
I'm really looking forward to running with Todd, Jeff, and Sean this year. Like I told Sean, anytime you ITR guys want to drive my car, the seats open. I'd be more than happy to show you all the "possible" cheats we have. I'm confident KC, Jeff, Kiko, and the rest of the Subies I talked to were legal for the some of the same reason's Todd mentioned: It's an outstanding new class. I don't think anyone wanted to mess it up by cheating.
| tkm | 02-07-2003 02:23 PM |
If a mod is deemed legal by the SCCA, then I have no problems with it. Yes, I do think it gives turbocharged cars an advantage to be able to play with ecu settings (but it also makes it very easy to cheat unfortunately). You've got to admit, that is a huge hp adding advantage to the WRX/DSM/Whatever (even legally). However, I'd still like to see a thorough test of a vishnu chip and some kind of documented proof as to how it leaves the stock boost alone--not only in theory, but also by real-world testing (which is the key IMO).
Are we to take a tuners word for it that it doesn't affect boost at all? I know how some aftermarket companies work--they will tell folks what they want to hear to sell products. And they will do all that they can to make their product better than the rest. I'm not saying that Vishnu would do this, but the possibility remains for every chip maker present and future.
I think WRX owners are going to have to prove these chips legal, because let's face it--people are going to wonder. I personally don't want to be involved in any protests, but I'm sure someone during the stretch of the season will have issues with a WRX at some time. Heck, it even happened in DS this past year.
I think if my competetors were going to question an aspect of my car that they didn't know about, I'd try my best to provide what I could to prove the legality mod ahead of time, both to them and the SCCA. Personally, I don't want a protest riddled nationals. If I think that's going to be the case in STX this year, I'm going to drive my other car in STS just to avoid the entire issue because it won't be fun for anyone involved, even not under a direct protest myself. And I certainly don't want to be bumped up a spot or so because a protest was carried through.
Just IMO. Feel free to comment.
Are we to take a tuners word for it that it doesn't affect boost at all? I know how some aftermarket companies work--they will tell folks what they want to hear to sell products. And they will do all that they can to make their product better than the rest. I'm not saying that Vishnu would do this, but the possibility remains for every chip maker present and future.
I think WRX owners are going to have to prove these chips legal, because let's face it--people are going to wonder. I personally don't want to be involved in any protests, but I'm sure someone during the stretch of the season will have issues with a WRX at some time. Heck, it even happened in DS this past year.
I think if my competetors were going to question an aspect of my car that they didn't know about, I'd try my best to provide what I could to prove the legality mod ahead of time, both to them and the SCCA. Personally, I don't want a protest riddled nationals. If I think that's going to be the case in STX this year, I'm going to drive my other car in STS just to avoid the entire issue because it won't be fun for anyone involved, even not under a direct protest myself. And I certainly don't want to be bumped up a spot or so because a protest was carried through.
Just IMO. Feel free to comment.
| tkm | 02-07-2003 02:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]
I agree. I have seen the results of reprogramming the VVT on an ITR. that car is fricken fast!!! But along with the reprogramming he had also removed the rev-limiter. Honda VTEC engines don't last long past 9000 rpm...:eek: [/B][/QUOTE]
Guys, the ITR comes with damn good fuel maps from the factory. 195 n/a hp out of 1.8L isn't easy.
Yes, there is room for power-adders, but most of the additional power we can find in STX trim will come from the header and intake. I've played with fuel and timing, but that's good for maybe 5-7whp max with STX mods. There just isn't getting that much better than oem specs. Sure, cam gears, different injectors, FPR, tuning, testpipe and the like can increase HP, but none of that is legal. To be honest with you, the Honda OBD-II computers are a bitch to work with and locked up pretty tight. To fully realize gains, you need to go beyond STX spec. And even at that, no way we are going to see huge gains unless we up compression, cams, valvetrain, etc.
The stock ITR motor will rev to 9200rpm safely. Not that it makes power up that high, but it will go there. And the only thing you can electronically play with on the vtec system is when the high cam comes on. All this does is move the power curve around by a few hundred RPMs. Not that big of a deal.
But, the strength of the ITR is not the stump-pulling power, it's the double wishbone, brakes and good handling. However, the inability to stuff a big tire under the car hurts us.
[B]
I agree. I have seen the results of reprogramming the VVT on an ITR. that car is fricken fast!!! But along with the reprogramming he had also removed the rev-limiter. Honda VTEC engines don't last long past 9000 rpm...:eek: [/B][/QUOTE]
Guys, the ITR comes with damn good fuel maps from the factory. 195 n/a hp out of 1.8L isn't easy.
Yes, there is room for power-adders, but most of the additional power we can find in STX trim will come from the header and intake. I've played with fuel and timing, but that's good for maybe 5-7whp max with STX mods. There just isn't getting that much better than oem specs. Sure, cam gears, different injectors, FPR, tuning, testpipe and the like can increase HP, but none of that is legal. To be honest with you, the Honda OBD-II computers are a bitch to work with and locked up pretty tight. To fully realize gains, you need to go beyond STX spec. And even at that, no way we are going to see huge gains unless we up compression, cams, valvetrain, etc.
The stock ITR motor will rev to 9200rpm safely. Not that it makes power up that high, but it will go there. And the only thing you can electronically play with on the vtec system is when the high cam comes on. All this does is move the power curve around by a few hundred RPMs. Not that big of a deal.
But, the strength of the ITR is not the stump-pulling power, it's the double wishbone, brakes and good handling. However, the inability to stuff a big tire under the car hurts us.
| trhoppe | 02-07-2003 02:36 PM |
Todd - Very nicely put. IMHO I think the ECUTek is a little too much for the new class to handle. ChrisW went a long way to prove that his ECUTek IS in fact legal, but I still think that they should nix it, but don't see that happening. The unichip is a add on fuel/timing computer sort of like an AFC/ITC combo in one. It does not have the capability to affect boost maps without an external addon that can be very easily spotted.
My was of "proving" that Im not using the ECU to raise my boost, but that it is raised by intake + carefully chosen exahust mods, is that I will allow anyone to *try* a stock ECU in my car and check my boost levels before and after. Where you obtain the stock ECU from is your deal, one way is from the protest committee :lol:
I myself won't be protesting anyone unless they are definetly breaking the rules and won't allow me to "investigate". ie "Hey, let me ride in your car and watch the boost gauge" sort of thing.
-Tom
My was of "proving" that Im not using the ECU to raise my boost, but that it is raised by intake + carefully chosen exahust mods, is that I will allow anyone to *try* a stock ECU in my car and check my boost levels before and after. Where you obtain the stock ECU from is your deal, one way is from the protest committee :lol:
I myself won't be protesting anyone unless they are definetly breaking the rules and won't allow me to "investigate". ie "Hey, let me ride in your car and watch the boost gauge" sort of thing.
-Tom
| Gary (gg) | 02-07-2003 03:18 PM |
Jeff's car was stock except for catback exhaust and tires and rims at the Peru NT. He has Tein RA's and Cusco RSB and the Vishnu Stage 0 minus the "checkvalve" he put on after the Topeka divisional sometime in the middle of August. He was still sorting the car out during Nationals. He is a very good driver, did well with a bone stock WRX with cat back, tires and rims when he switched to STX during the summer.
| KC | 02-07-2003 09:37 PM |
I';m tired, cranky and full. Please take this thread with a grain of salt.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tkm [/i]
[B]Are we to take a tuners word for it that it doesn't affect boost at all? I know how some aftermarket companies work--they will tell folks what they want to hear to sell products.
[/B][/QUOTE]Who's word are we to take? The person that doesn't know about the product or the person who makes them? I don't understand about your VTEC or it's addons, therefore, I believe the company that makes them lies. ;)
It's been said over and over again, and it's posted on the Vishnu site, and this one. The unichip does not alter boost. There is a separate piece that gets attached to the outside of the unichip that can be visually done.
And Todd, I don't want to be a pain about it, but it's not up to us to prove anything. It's up to the protestor to prove it the mod is illegal. All we can do is provide documentation to rebuff your 'facts' that you must have to prove the unichip illegal. 'Just because I don't understand' (I'm not saying you... I'm saying anyone who wishes to protest) isn't grounds for a protest, nor will it be upheld, it it'll be a sad day in SCCA history if it gets to a protest like that.
Hypothetical....
Protestor "It alters boost"
Committee "How"
Protestor "I don't know but it does"
Committe "Prove it"
Protestor "It's faster. Some corner workers saw the car pull away faster on the turns. So therefore it's got to be true'
Committe "What evidence do you have other than that?"
Protestor "I don't"
Committe "Mr Turbo guy, can you dispute this claim?"
Subaru "Here's a printout from the installation manual for the bleeder valve this particular manufacturer uses to increase boost. Also, here's some copies of competitors that show the add on-boost module that attaches to the unichip. You can see, that neither is there a bleeder valve, nor is this additional addon boost module on the chip"
Committee "OK thanks. Protest overturned."
Todd and anyone else reading this who wishes to protest the Vishnu unichip: Without the bleeder valve supplied by vishu on the system, or in the case of other tuners lack of a boost module PHYSICALLY on the unichip... it CANNOT alter boost. What do we need to do NOW to show this? To prove this. What are you looking for other than our word Todd or anyone else that is radin this to prove to you it does as we say?
And don't say Shiv is lying. That would be one helluva joke.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tkm [/i]
[B]Are we to take a tuners word for it that it doesn't affect boost at all? I know how some aftermarket companies work--they will tell folks what they want to hear to sell products.
[/B][/QUOTE]Who's word are we to take? The person that doesn't know about the product or the person who makes them? I don't understand about your VTEC or it's addons, therefore, I believe the company that makes them lies. ;)
It's been said over and over again, and it's posted on the Vishnu site, and this one. The unichip does not alter boost. There is a separate piece that gets attached to the outside of the unichip that can be visually done.
And Todd, I don't want to be a pain about it, but it's not up to us to prove anything. It's up to the protestor to prove it the mod is illegal. All we can do is provide documentation to rebuff your 'facts' that you must have to prove the unichip illegal. 'Just because I don't understand' (I'm not saying you... I'm saying anyone who wishes to protest) isn't grounds for a protest, nor will it be upheld, it it'll be a sad day in SCCA history if it gets to a protest like that.
Hypothetical....
Protestor "It alters boost"
Committee "How"
Protestor "I don't know but it does"
Committe "Prove it"
Protestor "It's faster. Some corner workers saw the car pull away faster on the turns. So therefore it's got to be true'
Committe "What evidence do you have other than that?"
Protestor "I don't"
Committe "Mr Turbo guy, can you dispute this claim?"
Subaru "Here's a printout from the installation manual for the bleeder valve this particular manufacturer uses to increase boost. Also, here's some copies of competitors that show the add on-boost module that attaches to the unichip. You can see, that neither is there a bleeder valve, nor is this additional addon boost module on the chip"
Committee "OK thanks. Protest overturned."
Todd and anyone else reading this who wishes to protest the Vishnu unichip: Without the bleeder valve supplied by vishu on the system, or in the case of other tuners lack of a boost module PHYSICALLY on the unichip... it CANNOT alter boost. What do we need to do NOW to show this? To prove this. What are you looking for other than our word Todd or anyone else that is radin this to prove to you it does as we say?
And don't say Shiv is lying. That would be one helluva joke.
| Storm | 02-07-2003 10:38 PM |
Surely the WRX is not the first turbo car to be caught in the limelight of allowable mods that can easily be linked to disallowed mods. What has happened historically to the DSMs, Mopars and Mazdas in SP where engine management is allowed but boost manipulation isn't?
I think folks are reading too much into this.
The protest committee's reference boost gauge should be the final word on a protested car. My $.02 anyway....
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
I think folks are reading too much into this.
The protest committee's reference boost gauge should be the final word on a protested car. My $.02 anyway....
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| tkm | 02-07-2003 10:41 PM |
[i]Originally posted by KC
I';m tired, cranky and full. Please take this thread with a grain of salt.[/i]
[i]Who's word are we to take? The person that doesn't know about the product or the person who makes them? I don't understand about your VTEC or it's addons, therefore, I believe the company that makes them lies. ;)[/i]
This is why five of us spent about an hour or more speaking with the Cobb guys and Fedja J. before the start of the second day 2002. The Cobb guys because they knew about the chip, and Fedja because he's been through a few protests when it comes to turbocharged vehicles. It was all very enlightening.
[i]It's been said over and over again, and it's posted on the Vishnu site, and this one. The unichip does not alter boost. There is a separate piece that gets attached to the outside of the unichip that can be visually done.[/i]
Understood. What I am asking: Do you have boost graphs of this chip before installlation and then after installation? This is something that I can't really find out because 1) I don't own a WRX and 2) I don't have access to one for testing purposes. Not to sound like an ass, but I'm interested in what the mod really does rather than what someone says it does. Again, I'm not saying that the Vishnu alters boost. I'm speaking in general about any consumer product.
[i]And Todd, I don't want to be a pain about it, but it's not up to us to prove anything. It's up to the protestor to prove it the mod is illegal. All we can do is provide documentation to rebuff your 'facts' that you must have to prove the unichip illegal. 'Just because I don't understand' (I'm not saying you... I'm saying anyone who wishes to protest) isn't grounds for a protest, nor will it be upheld, it it'll be a sad day in SCCA history if it gets to a protest like that.[/i]
I don't think anyone is that dumb, KC. However, you know people are going to be wondering about what mods do what--that's the nature of the sport. Don't take this too far, as I'm sure any national caliber competitor will have his ducks in a row before they make a protest. What you wrote below sounds like a bad Sunday at a local event, and surely not something that's going to happen at a national championship.
Hypothetical....
[i]Protestor "It alters boost"
Committee "How"
<big snip>[/i]
[i]Todd and anyone else reading this who wishes to protest the Vishnu unichip: Without the bleeder valve supplied by vishu on the system, or in the case of other tuners lack of a boost module PHYSICALLY on the unichip... it CANNOT alter boost. What do we need to do NOW to show this? To prove this. What are you looking for other than our word Todd or anyone else that is radin this to prove to you it does as we say?[/i]
Don't get so carried away. I don't plan to or want to take part in any protest. But from talking to others who have been through boost protests, if I understood correctly, there's more to it than just altering (increasing) boost. What if a chip allows a car to make boost easier or at a lower RPM? Can a chip trick the computer into altering it's parameters to throw out more boost sooner and lower? These are the questions I don't know, and one of the reasons that I've been doing some research. Turboed SP guys, in the past, couldn't do all of the stuff that ST is now allowing, correct? Heck, CSP Type R's can't change any vtec parameters like we can.
[i]And don't say Shiv is lying. That would be one helluva joke.[/i]
I don't know the guy or much about or what he does, so I can't say anything positive or negative about him or his practices.
And one more thing--I assure you I'm not posting on this board to start anything. I thought it was kind of cool on honda-tech to see a nice mixture of guys on there, so I'm trying to broaden my horizons a little :) But I think my questions are genuine as is my interest of the class. Unfortunately, all it takes is a few folks trying to stretch the rules to give STX a black eye. I don't think any of us whats that. I'd question a Honda just as fast as I'd question any other make of car. And I'd kow an illegal ITR if I saw it :)
I';m tired, cranky and full. Please take this thread with a grain of salt.[/i]
[i]Who's word are we to take? The person that doesn't know about the product or the person who makes them? I don't understand about your VTEC or it's addons, therefore, I believe the company that makes them lies. ;)[/i]
This is why five of us spent about an hour or more speaking with the Cobb guys and Fedja J. before the start of the second day 2002. The Cobb guys because they knew about the chip, and Fedja because he's been through a few protests when it comes to turbocharged vehicles. It was all very enlightening.
[i]It's been said over and over again, and it's posted on the Vishnu site, and this one. The unichip does not alter boost. There is a separate piece that gets attached to the outside of the unichip that can be visually done.[/i]
Understood. What I am asking: Do you have boost graphs of this chip before installlation and then after installation? This is something that I can't really find out because 1) I don't own a WRX and 2) I don't have access to one for testing purposes. Not to sound like an ass, but I'm interested in what the mod really does rather than what someone says it does. Again, I'm not saying that the Vishnu alters boost. I'm speaking in general about any consumer product.
[i]And Todd, I don't want to be a pain about it, but it's not up to us to prove anything. It's up to the protestor to prove it the mod is illegal. All we can do is provide documentation to rebuff your 'facts' that you must have to prove the unichip illegal. 'Just because I don't understand' (I'm not saying you... I'm saying anyone who wishes to protest) isn't grounds for a protest, nor will it be upheld, it it'll be a sad day in SCCA history if it gets to a protest like that.[/i]
I don't think anyone is that dumb, KC. However, you know people are going to be wondering about what mods do what--that's the nature of the sport. Don't take this too far, as I'm sure any national caliber competitor will have his ducks in a row before they make a protest. What you wrote below sounds like a bad Sunday at a local event, and surely not something that's going to happen at a national championship.
Hypothetical....
[i]Protestor "It alters boost"
Committee "How"
<big snip>[/i]
[i]Todd and anyone else reading this who wishes to protest the Vishnu unichip: Without the bleeder valve supplied by vishu on the system, or in the case of other tuners lack of a boost module PHYSICALLY on the unichip... it CANNOT alter boost. What do we need to do NOW to show this? To prove this. What are you looking for other than our word Todd or anyone else that is radin this to prove to you it does as we say?[/i]
Don't get so carried away. I don't plan to or want to take part in any protest. But from talking to others who have been through boost protests, if I understood correctly, there's more to it than just altering (increasing) boost. What if a chip allows a car to make boost easier or at a lower RPM? Can a chip trick the computer into altering it's parameters to throw out more boost sooner and lower? These are the questions I don't know, and one of the reasons that I've been doing some research. Turboed SP guys, in the past, couldn't do all of the stuff that ST is now allowing, correct? Heck, CSP Type R's can't change any vtec parameters like we can.
[i]And don't say Shiv is lying. That would be one helluva joke.[/i]
I don't know the guy or much about or what he does, so I can't say anything positive or negative about him or his practices.
And one more thing--I assure you I'm not posting on this board to start anything. I thought it was kind of cool on honda-tech to see a nice mixture of guys on there, so I'm trying to broaden my horizons a little :) But I think my questions are genuine as is my interest of the class. Unfortunately, all it takes is a few folks trying to stretch the rules to give STX a black eye. I don't think any of us whats that. I'd question a Honda just as fast as I'd question any other make of car. And I'd kow an illegal ITR if I saw it :)
| Orion | 02-07-2003 10:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tkm [/i]
[B]This is something that I can't really find out because 1) I don't own a WRX and 2) I don't have access to one for testing purposes. [/B][/QUOTE]
When's the OVR fun run? I'll give you access to my car. Our only problem is that we don't have an AWD dyno remotely close to Columbus. I also don't have the Unichip, [i]yet[/i].
[B]This is something that I can't really find out because 1) I don't own a WRX and 2) I don't have access to one for testing purposes. [/B][/QUOTE]
When's the OVR fun run? I'll give you access to my car. Our only problem is that we don't have an AWD dyno remotely close to Columbus. I also don't have the Unichip, [i]yet[/i].
| BruceC | 02-07-2003 11:02 PM |
245s on a wagon, KC?
I'm a noob with only one year in DST (local, on the awesome RE92's :lol: ) but looking to run local STX next year (if I get a friggin job and can afford *any* mods). I'm an old fart compared to most of you so it's unlikely in the extreme that I'll ever be a threat on the National level. So humor my curiosity, KC and other wagon owners: will it even be possible to run 245s on a wagon since even 225s are iffy according to othe threads I've read?
And while I'm here: is a 3" exhaust really the way to go? I've seen a persuasive school of thought that a 2.5" gives better power in the midrange where we can use it best.
The best I think I can hope for this year on my car are 225-16s (Kumho MX probably - a compromise since I only have the stock rims & need a tire for daily driving), a rear tower bar and maybe an adjustable rear swaybar & droplinks.
(Technically, I should have been running STX last year because of my Kartboy shifter and bushings. But since I usually came in last no one cared. Just our little secret!)
You young punks with nothing else to spend your money on make me sick!!!;)
OK, back to your rarefied talk of ECUs and coilovers and all that.....
And while I'm here: is a 3" exhaust really the way to go? I've seen a persuasive school of thought that a 2.5" gives better power in the midrange where we can use it best.
The best I think I can hope for this year on my car are 225-16s (Kumho MX probably - a compromise since I only have the stock rims & need a tire for daily driving), a rear tower bar and maybe an adjustable rear swaybar & droplinks.
(Technically, I should have been running STX last year because of my Kartboy shifter and bushings. But since I usually came in last no one cared. Just our little secret!)
You young punks with nothing else to spend your money on make me sick!!!;)
OK, back to your rarefied talk of ECUs and coilovers and all that.....
| tkm | 02-07-2003 11:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]
When's the OVR fun run? I'll give you access to my car. Our only problem is that we don't have an AWD dyno remotely close to Columbus. I also don't have the Unichip, [i]yet[/i]. [/B][/QUOTE]
It's a local--there all fun runs in my eyes! I was only going to run the ITR to sort it next year for the big events. I know you'll give all of my secrets away :) j/k.
And hey, I'm up for a drive in a WRX if you're offering...
On a serious note, I'd love to see a boost chart before vishnu and then one immediately afterward. I'd think this has already been done though?
[B]
When's the OVR fun run? I'll give you access to my car. Our only problem is that we don't have an AWD dyno remotely close to Columbus. I also don't have the Unichip, [i]yet[/i]. [/B][/QUOTE]
It's a local--there all fun runs in my eyes! I was only going to run the ITR to sort it next year for the big events. I know you'll give all of my secrets away :) j/k.
And hey, I'm up for a drive in a WRX if you're offering...
On a serious note, I'd love to see a boost chart before vishnu and then one immediately afterward. I'd think this has already been done though?
| Orion | 02-07-2003 11:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tkm [/i]
[B]
It's a local--there all fun runs in my eyes! I was only going to run the ITR to sort it next year for the big events. I know you'll give all of my secrets away :) j/k.
And hey, I'm up for a drive in a WRX if you're offering...
On a serious note, I'd love to see a boost chart before vishnu and then one immediately afterward. I'd think this has already been done though? [/B][/QUOTE]
The seat's yours anytime except for the Nat Tour in Toledo, my Nats co-driver will be up for that.
I talked with Sean at Nats about trading seats for an event up here. I'll gladly take either one (or both) of you up on it.
We need to meet up for a drink soon to bench race.
The problem then becomes which stock boost curve are you going to use? Not all cars are alike from the factory. Perfect example was Tom's DS car last year. He was actually putting out LESS boost than the protestor.
There should be a couple dyno charts around here of the Vishnu chip, but chances are it's including the boost module.
[B]
It's a local--there all fun runs in my eyes! I was only going to run the ITR to sort it next year for the big events. I know you'll give all of my secrets away :) j/k.
And hey, I'm up for a drive in a WRX if you're offering...
On a serious note, I'd love to see a boost chart before vishnu and then one immediately afterward. I'd think this has already been done though? [/B][/QUOTE]
The seat's yours anytime except for the Nat Tour in Toledo, my Nats co-driver will be up for that.
I talked with Sean at Nats about trading seats for an event up here. I'll gladly take either one (or both) of you up on it.
We need to meet up for a drink soon to bench race.
The problem then becomes which stock boost curve are you going to use? Not all cars are alike from the factory. Perfect example was Tom's DS car last year. He was actually putting out LESS boost than the protestor.
There should be a couple dyno charts around here of the Vishnu chip, but chances are it's including the boost module.
| tkm | 02-07-2003 11:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]
The seat's yours anytime except for the Nat Tour in Toledo, my Nats co-driver will be up for that.
I talked with Sean at Nats about trading seats for an event up here. I'll gladly take either one (or both) of you up on it.
We need to meet up for a drink soon to bench race.
The problem then becomes which stock boost curve are you going to use? Not all cars are alike from the factory. Perfect example was Tom's DS car last year. He was actually putting out LESS boost than the protestor.
There should be a couple dyno charts around here of the Vishnu chip, but chances are it's including the boost module. [/B][/QUOTE]
Hey, I'll take you up on that (and Bob too if you're reading this thread)! And email me off-list and we'll try to get together for a drink.
And I think you mentioned the rub we all have--different cars, different boost curves, different mods affecting boost on other ways, etc. And yeah, all of the vishnu dynos and boost charts I've seen have been with the boost mods.
But, if someone could map the boost of one car immediately before and then immediately after the install of the chip, it would answer a lot of questions. Perhaps not comparable to other WRX's, but at least it would show us what the chip is doing on one particular car and if it does exactly what it says it does. You could even do partial throttle runs, full throttle runs, etc.
[B]
The seat's yours anytime except for the Nat Tour in Toledo, my Nats co-driver will be up for that.
I talked with Sean at Nats about trading seats for an event up here. I'll gladly take either one (or both) of you up on it.
We need to meet up for a drink soon to bench race.
The problem then becomes which stock boost curve are you going to use? Not all cars are alike from the factory. Perfect example was Tom's DS car last year. He was actually putting out LESS boost than the protestor.
There should be a couple dyno charts around here of the Vishnu chip, but chances are it's including the boost module. [/B][/QUOTE]
Hey, I'll take you up on that (and Bob too if you're reading this thread)! And email me off-list and we'll try to get together for a drink.
And I think you mentioned the rub we all have--different cars, different boost curves, different mods affecting boost on other ways, etc. And yeah, all of the vishnu dynos and boost charts I've seen have been with the boost mods.
But, if someone could map the boost of one car immediately before and then immediately after the install of the chip, it would answer a lot of questions. Perhaps not comparable to other WRX's, but at least it would show us what the chip is doing on one particular car and if it does exactly what it says it does. You could even do partial throttle runs, full throttle runs, etc.
| shifterkartracer | 02-08-2003 09:00 AM |
Jeez Todd, I was just a bout begging you to drive the blue beast last year! The seat is always open. I have a feeling the CenDiv series is going to be a lot of fun this year.:cool:
I don't know if you guys noticed but they 'tentatively' changed the location of three of the PRO (Precision Racing, not ProSOLO) events to Muskegon, MI. I don't know if you guys were planning on checking out any of these events. We have a cottage in Grand Haven, about 15 miles south of Muskegon with three bedrooms. Possibly someplace to BBQ and a free place to sleep if you guys want to come up to the event. Just something to put on your racing calendar wishlist.
I need to go plan my bank robbery now so I can keep up with you guys . . .
I don't know if you guys noticed but they 'tentatively' changed the location of three of the PRO (Precision Racing, not ProSOLO) events to Muskegon, MI. I don't know if you guys were planning on checking out any of these events. We have a cottage in Grand Haven, about 15 miles south of Muskegon with three bedrooms. Possibly someplace to BBQ and a free place to sleep if you guys want to come up to the event. Just something to put on your racing calendar wishlist.
I need to go plan my bank robbery now so I can keep up with you guys . . .
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