| RaceComp Engineering | 10-23-2004 12:44 AM |
The new and improved advanced suspension and brakes thread
�
�
Some of the Guru's over in the regular suspension and brakes forum felt that we needed an advanced section,.so here it is........( I am not a Guru...so I dont count)
starring:
Uncle Scotty, Doc Bigggly, Nhluhr, Arnie, Bridrive, BigskyWRX,and a host of others. So stay tuned here for more advanced suspension topics than you can shake a stick at.
warning, no talk of 19s, rear sway bar only upgrades, and no "why do I need to corner balance my car with my bumpstop coilover set up anyway?" questions.............LOL :lol: :lol:
944 turbo guy
starring:
Uncle Scotty, Doc Bigggly, Nhluhr, Arnie, Bridrive, BigskyWRX,and a host of others. So stay tuned here for more advanced suspension topics than you can shake a stick at.
warning, no talk of 19s, rear sway bar only upgrades, and no "why do I need to corner balance my car with my bumpstop coilover set up anyway?" questions.............LOL :lol: :lol:
944 turbo guy
| Uncle Scotty | 10-23-2004 12:57 AM |
IBxx.....:lol:
| STiTuner | 10-23-2004 01:20 AM |
you mean finally a thread for people who know what motion ratio is?
:banana:
Brad
:banana:
Brad
| Arnie | 10-23-2004 01:22 AM |
Too funny, I'm honored to be mentioned in such esteemed company. Excited to see what comes up.
I think all questions should be sent to Myle's first for "approval". He'll be our "Dear Abby", and we can all be the esteemed staff of ghost writing information gatherers. He can then post those deemed appropriate and we can all have at it and answer them here! Sound good?
I think all questions should be sent to Myle's first for "approval". He'll be our "Dear Abby", and we can all be the esteemed staff of ghost writing information gatherers. He can then post those deemed appropriate and we can all have at it and answer them here! Sound good?
| Arnie | 10-23-2004 01:25 AM |
Sorry, edited to keep things informational.
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-23-2004 01:34 AM |
[QUOTE=STiTuner]you mean finally a thread for people who know what motion ratio is?
:banana:
Brad[/QUOTE]
YES,.EXACTLY.............
944 TURBO GUY
:banana:
Brad[/QUOTE]
YES,.EXACTLY.............
944 TURBO GUY
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-23-2004 01:35 AM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]Too funny, I'm honored to be mentioned in such esteemed company. Excited to see what comes up.
I think all questions should be sent to Myle's first for "approval". He'll be our "Dear Abby", and we can all be the esteemed staff of ghost writing information gatherers. He can then post those deemed appropriate and we can all have at it and answer them here! Sound good?[/QUOTE]
That makes me like the lady in the "spa" who takes your money first before you know what you're getting into right? :lol:
944tg
I think all questions should be sent to Myle's first for "approval". He'll be our "Dear Abby", and we can all be the esteemed staff of ghost writing information gatherers. He can then post those deemed appropriate and we can all have at it and answer them here! Sound good?[/QUOTE]
That makes me like the lady in the "spa" who takes your money first before you know what you're getting into right? :lol:
944tg
| Arnie | 10-23-2004 01:44 AM |
Exactly! Madame Myles, here to service all your advance suspension needs. Come in to my parlor!
Just for giggles....Most strut equipped vehicles will have a motion ratio of between 1:0.9/0.9, i.e. 10mm of travel at the wheel would equate to 9 to 9.5 mm at the spring. Therefore, as an example, a height change of 9mm at the spring seat of a coilover would deliver 10mm height change at the wheel. Just FYI ;) :p
Just for giggles....Most strut equipped vehicles will have a motion ratio of between 1:0.9/0.9, i.e. 10mm of travel at the wheel would equate to 9 to 9.5 mm at the spring. Therefore, as an example, a height change of 9mm at the spring seat of a coilover would deliver 10mm height change at the wheel. Just FYI ;) :p
| STiTuner | 10-23-2004 01:57 AM |
giggles?
typical wheels travel from the research I've done
Passenger Cars with factory suspension: � 4�
Indy/F1 cars � .5" YES ONLY 1/2 of an INCH ( I know this because I was helping with the multilink on the supra and I got side tracked)
Typical road track Car � 2�
typical wheels travel from the research I've done
Passenger Cars with factory suspension: � 4�
Indy/F1 cars � .5" YES ONLY 1/2 of an INCH ( I know this because I was helping with the multilink on the supra and I got side tracked)
Typical road track Car � 2�
| DrBiggly | 10-23-2004 07:45 AM |
Guru I'm not but advice I can give. :)
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-23-2004 08:41 AM |
This is why you guys are the founding fathers..................(old and crusty ) :D :lol: ;) :p
| BIGSKYWRX | 10-23-2004 08:59 AM |
Finally! I can give up my day job now:)
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-23-2004 09:02 AM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Finally! I can give up my day job now:)[/QUOTE]
I just updated your name in the Guru directory !!!! :D :lol:
I just updated your name in the Guru directory !!!! :D :lol:
| MNbiker | 10-23-2004 11:17 AM |
cool, now I have two forums to lurk in! ;) :cool:
-Steve
-Steve
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-23-2004 11:23 AM |
Ahhhh,..yesssssssssss...we have the 100 inch HDTV plasma FUJI flat screen and 1500i , with leather sofas and mixed drinks and beer and all the entertainment you could ever want,..right here in "ASB"........your one stop suspension forum...............LOL :banana: :disco: :banana: :disco:
Its all virtual................
Its all virtual................
| forced4 | 10-23-2004 01:20 PM |
less talk, more rock! :banana:
School us n00bs. :)
School us n00bs. :)
| Zuffy | 10-23-2004 03:19 PM |
Hey Guys, what is the motion ratio for the front and rear of the 04 WRX?
| ChrisDP | 10-23-2004 03:26 PM |
Does anyone have shock dyno charts for any of the popular Impreza-fitment coilovers? I think it'd be interesting to see how each manufacturer valves for their given springrate, and compare the change in damping force over the range of adjustment. If anyone has shocks made by any of the popular JDM brands they'd like to have dynoed, Lee Grimes at Koni will dyno them for free if you ship them to him and send you charts along with commentary on the results.
| Uncle Scotty | 10-23-2004 04:46 PM |
Hear that, Myles.....we need a chassis dyno.....PRONTO!!!!!! :lol:
| Uncle Scotty | 10-23-2004 04:49 PM |
[QUOTE=Zuffy]Hey Guys, what is the motion ratio for the front and rear of the 04 WRX?[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=4]BRAD....!!!???!!![/SIZE]
:lol: :banana:
[SIZE=4]BRAD....!!!???!!![/SIZE]
:lol: :banana:
| DrBiggly | 10-23-2004 06:16 PM |
Myles,
I think that sending your different struts to Lee would be awesome. ChrisDP: Thanks for that tidbit of info! I almost went for Koni shocks this year, however I ended up doing something else that was already setup the way I needed so I didn't have to do that. :)
I think that sending your different struts to Lee would be awesome. ChrisDP: Thanks for that tidbit of info! I almost went for Koni shocks this year, however I ended up doing something else that was already setup the way I needed so I didn't have to do that. :)
| Rallycarperson | 10-23-2004 09:39 PM |
Can anyone remomend a rear swaybar? :lol:
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| CMJ | 10-23-2004 10:37 PM |
[QUOTE=Rallycarperson]Can anyone remomend a rear swaybar? :lol:
-Mark
MAPmotors.com[/QUOTE]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=530866[/url]
-Mark
MAPmotors.com[/QUOTE]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=530866[/url]
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-24-2004 08:32 AM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Myles,
I think that sending your different struts to Lee would be awesome. ChrisDP: Thanks for that tidbit of info! I almost went for Koni shocks this year, however I ended up doing something else that was already setup the way I needed so I didn't have to do that. :)[/QUOTE]
Then consider it done !! I have ordered singles of each of "our" popular brands, each valved for the same spring rate also, so soon we should be able to do a ZERO 2R (Cusco) and V6 (ZEAL ) comparo. We have been talking with Moton and should have those soon (relative word), also, but those are in another category anyway. I will try to track down some barely used Ohlins (road and track) also, but here again, not in the same category.
This was already on our priority list when these parts came in for the showroom, but now there is "PRESSURE"...from the community. :lol: :D
944 turbo guy
I think that sending your different struts to Lee would be awesome. ChrisDP: Thanks for that tidbit of info! I almost went for Koni shocks this year, however I ended up doing something else that was already setup the way I needed so I didn't have to do that. :)[/QUOTE]
Then consider it done !! I have ordered singles of each of "our" popular brands, each valved for the same spring rate also, so soon we should be able to do a ZERO 2R (Cusco) and V6 (ZEAL ) comparo. We have been talking with Moton and should have those soon (relative word), also, but those are in another category anyway. I will try to track down some barely used Ohlins (road and track) also, but here again, not in the same category.
This was already on our priority list when these parts came in for the showroom, but now there is "PRESSURE"...from the community. :lol: :D
944 turbo guy
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-24-2004 08:35 AM |
[QUOTE=Zuffy]Hey Guys, what is the motion ratio for the front and rear of the 04 WRX?[/QUOTE]
its,...." ooooooooooo,...and ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,..." :lol:
its,...." ooooooooooo,...and ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,..." :lol:
| javid | 10-24-2004 02:36 PM |
Should be installing the coilovers this week. After the springs have settled, do I need to align then corner balance, balance then align, or repeat one of the two such as balance, align, balance.
I have heard that alignment effects the balance more than one would expect?
Thanks guys
I have heard that alignment effects the balance more than one would expect?
Thanks guys
| DrBiggly | 10-25-2004 12:02 AM |
Before you can get a mile, it will have settled so don't just wait on some magical light to appear on your dash that says "my springs have settled" or anything like that. Anyone who tells you otherwise or that you need a week or something silly like that to "settle the springs" isn't quite up to par. Ideal order: Balance, align, then balance again. :)
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-25-2004 12:19 AM |
380mm rotors...........
�
�
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/stillwill/Myles%20pics/DDS%20Rotors/ygpC296.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/stillwill/Myles%20pics/DDS%20Rotors/ygpC297.jpg[/IMG]
waiting on AP pedals, and GT3 RS calipers for the rear rotors..............
944 turbo guy
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/stillwill/Myles%20pics/DDS%20Rotors/ygpC297.jpg[/IMG]
waiting on AP pedals, and GT3 RS calipers for the rear rotors..............
944 turbo guy
| BriDrive | 10-25-2004 11:23 AM |
[QUOTE=javid]Should be installing the coilovers this week. After the springs have settled, do I need to align then corner balance, balance then align, or repeat one of the two such as balance, align, balance.
I have heard that alignment effects the balance more than one would expect?
Thanks guys[/QUOTE]
IMHO, alignment effects corner balance WAY LESS than alot of other parameters, such as weight. Cornerbalancing the car is going to be a compromise no matter what you do if we're talking about a street car. Unless of course you always drive it sans spare tire, jack,floormats, baby seat, etc, and always drive in your racing position with helmet and stop for gas every 50 miles or so. I say this not to be funny, just to remark about how sensitive a corner balance actually is.
A big part of the "when should I align..." part has to do with WHERE the ride height was BEFORE installing a particaular coilover rig. Dramatic rideheight changes generally have big alignment changes that correspond.
Although springs, in my experience, do settle the most, fairly quickly, I would tend to give them some time. How much depends on how aggressively you "break them in". Go auto crossing next day, go out to closed road and jink it around hard for thirty minutes....pretty safe that its settled.
I would generally follow this order IF YOU CAN, because it saves the most time and energy from a standpoint of not having to REDO anything:
#1. Get your "New" ride height figured out with your coilovers. If you already have experience with previous coils, or know where you want it, then its cake. If you don't, you may want to experiment with some different settings. Try 5mm or 10mm increments.
#2. Following your final rideheight decision, and suitably putting the car through its paces to "Settle" springs, get the corner balance done. BTW, if you're going to corner balance you may want to decide what the corner balance is for first. If for racing, the car should be stripped to whatever form you race it in. Remove everything you generally would, get the proper fuel level, don't forget yourself and helmet and driving/seat position, etc etc. The corner balance procedure can generally be done with only "marginal" rideheight changes to a couple of corners. But in some cases where the rideheight was not set up very well to begin with, you might be in for a long day depending upon the skill of the Balancer. OH, and its during the installation phase of the coilovers where you should set your base cambers from the bolts FIRST, leaving topplates(if you have them) alone and set to a "zero" line.
#3. NOW its time for an alignment. In this time, if you made radical changes from previous (ie, in the case of going from stock to aggressive lowering) AND drive alot or autocross, you can seriously eat up some tires. If you think this might be the case, I would do a "rough alignment" after installation and a precision alignment later. Doing it yourself can give you alot of freedom to experiment with suspensions, by not being locked into having to go to a shop constantly and shoveling out dollar after dollar.
This can all be accomplished within 5~7 days depending on scheduling of a corner balance site and an aligner and you.
My two cents.....BriDrive :cool:
I have heard that alignment effects the balance more than one would expect?
Thanks guys[/QUOTE]
IMHO, alignment effects corner balance WAY LESS than alot of other parameters, such as weight. Cornerbalancing the car is going to be a compromise no matter what you do if we're talking about a street car. Unless of course you always drive it sans spare tire, jack,floormats, baby seat, etc, and always drive in your racing position with helmet and stop for gas every 50 miles or so. I say this not to be funny, just to remark about how sensitive a corner balance actually is.
A big part of the "when should I align..." part has to do with WHERE the ride height was BEFORE installing a particaular coilover rig. Dramatic rideheight changes generally have big alignment changes that correspond.
Although springs, in my experience, do settle the most, fairly quickly, I would tend to give them some time. How much depends on how aggressively you "break them in". Go auto crossing next day, go out to closed road and jink it around hard for thirty minutes....pretty safe that its settled.
I would generally follow this order IF YOU CAN, because it saves the most time and energy from a standpoint of not having to REDO anything:
#1. Get your "New" ride height figured out with your coilovers. If you already have experience with previous coils, or know where you want it, then its cake. If you don't, you may want to experiment with some different settings. Try 5mm or 10mm increments.
#2. Following your final rideheight decision, and suitably putting the car through its paces to "Settle" springs, get the corner balance done. BTW, if you're going to corner balance you may want to decide what the corner balance is for first. If for racing, the car should be stripped to whatever form you race it in. Remove everything you generally would, get the proper fuel level, don't forget yourself and helmet and driving/seat position, etc etc. The corner balance procedure can generally be done with only "marginal" rideheight changes to a couple of corners. But in some cases where the rideheight was not set up very well to begin with, you might be in for a long day depending upon the skill of the Balancer. OH, and its during the installation phase of the coilovers where you should set your base cambers from the bolts FIRST, leaving topplates(if you have them) alone and set to a "zero" line.
#3. NOW its time for an alignment. In this time, if you made radical changes from previous (ie, in the case of going from stock to aggressive lowering) AND drive alot or autocross, you can seriously eat up some tires. If you think this might be the case, I would do a "rough alignment" after installation and a precision alignment later. Doing it yourself can give you alot of freedom to experiment with suspensions, by not being locked into having to go to a shop constantly and shoveling out dollar after dollar.
This can all be accomplished within 5~7 days depending on scheduling of a corner balance site and an aligner and you.
My two cents.....BriDrive :cool:
| makofoto | 10-25-2004 11:47 AM |
The Nov issue of Turbo & High-Tech Performance magazine has strut dyno graphs for the stock WRX, STI and Tein Flex struts. Would this be something that you guys would like posted here, ie. scanned and attached? Can one legally do that ? Perhaps when the Dec. issue comes out ... they will post that article on-line ... like they do with a lot of their articles: [url]http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/[/url]
| makofoto | 10-25-2004 11:58 AM |
How about tackling the question posed here: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653512[/url]
... on how widening the front track of a WRX/Wagon effects it's handling. I'm wondering if widening the front track of my '03 Street Modified Wagon ... by say 10 mm per side (so that it equals the front track width of a sedan) would allow the car to have power on over steer while Autocrossing. I was going to experiment with spacers first ... then, if the results warranted it ... changing out my front A arms for Aluminum A arms and sedan hubs. I imagine that I can dial out the extra negative camber with my camber plates? I don't rub my extra wide 225/45/17 Hoosiers, yet ... but might need to upgrade my front springs from the 450 they are now ... especially if I'm generating more grip. Of course the rears would have to go up also from the 550 they are now ... or ?
... on how widening the front track of a WRX/Wagon effects it's handling. I'm wondering if widening the front track of my '03 Street Modified Wagon ... by say 10 mm per side (so that it equals the front track width of a sedan) would allow the car to have power on over steer while Autocrossing. I was going to experiment with spacers first ... then, if the results warranted it ... changing out my front A arms for Aluminum A arms and sedan hubs. I imagine that I can dial out the extra negative camber with my camber plates? I don't rub my extra wide 225/45/17 Hoosiers, yet ... but might need to upgrade my front springs from the 450 they are now ... especially if I'm generating more grip. Of course the rears would have to go up also from the 550 they are now ... or ?
| ChrisDP | 10-25-2004 10:28 PM |
Obviously contact Koni Lee for specifics on getting dyno work done, but he posted that offer earlier on Honda-Tech and seemed interested in dynoing my Ledas a while back to see gain more perspective on the competitors' valving philosophies. He's mentioned a few times that most of the JDM stuff he's dynoed tends to be very stiff on compression and not much in the way of rebound adjustment range. I think it would definitely be a benefit to get equivocal evidence to show if anyone's 70-click adjustable shocks have less range than another manufacturer's 4 way adjust :)
| trhoppe | 10-26-2004 09:58 AM |
I always was under the impression that the Teins had too much bump and not enough rebound. When I did the revalve, I did in the range of 15% or so more bump and 50% more rebound valving.
I'm looking forward to getting the dyno charts from our Whiteline Group 4s. We'll be on 12K/10K springs and 24mm swaybars on the STi, and probably end up going to 14K/12K with a revalve if we feel we need more spring.
-Tom
I'm looking forward to getting the dyno charts from our Whiteline Group 4s. We'll be on 12K/10K springs and 24mm swaybars on the STi, and probably end up going to 14K/12K with a revalve if we feel we need more spring.
-Tom
| trhoppe | 10-26-2004 09:59 AM |
This is a chart of Tein HA/RA valving.
Front
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/teinhachartfront.jpg[/img]
Rear
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/teinhachartrear.jpg[/img]
-Tom
Front
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/teinhachartfront.jpg[/img]
Rear
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/teinhachartrear.jpg[/img]
-Tom
| Draken | 10-26-2004 10:03 AM |
For GC8 applications, Koni NA has several valvings and DYNO graphs of revalved shocks that Brian Priebe put together a couple years ago. Mostly STS biased. However, we did do a couple for G-Stock.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| BriDrive | 10-26-2004 10:04 AM |
Tom,
What kind/type of tire will you be running on the STI? Presumably not a streettire compound eh?
BriDrive
What kind/type of tire will you be running on the STI? Presumably not a streettire compound eh?
BriDrive
| Draken | 10-26-2004 10:07 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]The Nov issue of Turbo & High-Tech Performance magazine has strut dyno graphs for the stock WRX, STI and Tein Flex struts. Would this be something that you guys would like posted here, ie. scanned and attached? Can one legally do that ? Perhaps when the Dec. issue comes out ... they will post that article on-line ... like they do with a lot of their articles: [url]http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/[/url][/QUOTE]
I would be interested in the Tein Flex graphs.
Chris H.
esp/stu STi
I would be interested in the Tein Flex graphs.
Chris H.
esp/stu STi
| trhoppe | 10-26-2004 10:14 AM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]Tom,
What kind/type of tire will you be running on the STI? Presumably not a streettire compound eh?
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
As of right now, we are up in the air between the 285/30/18 or the 315/35/17. If we do the 285/30/18 and then decide we need something wider, the 315/35/18 tires are WAAY tall, while the 315/17 is kind of "in the middle". Then again, I dunno if we would actually "need" anything more then a 285. Wider is usually better, but there has to be a point of diminishing returns with not enough heat and also weight. Also, the 285 is shorter. If we are going to have to shift to 3rd anyways, might as well shift earlier and get there faster. The 315/35/17 with a 7500/7600 Rev limit in the STi might keep us out of 3rd gear at the ProSolos and we would make up a lot there. Last but not least the 275/40/17 and 315/35/17 are the *exact* height, so we could play with a staggered setup if we went 17. Its a tough call as we cannot afford both the 17s and 18s as far as the wheels go (~$2000 a set) so I will be doing lots of thinking and research before I make the purchase.
Either way we will be going with the Kumho V710.
-Tom
What kind/type of tire will you be running on the STI? Presumably not a streettire compound eh?
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
As of right now, we are up in the air between the 285/30/18 or the 315/35/17. If we do the 285/30/18 and then decide we need something wider, the 315/35/18 tires are WAAY tall, while the 315/17 is kind of "in the middle". Then again, I dunno if we would actually "need" anything more then a 285. Wider is usually better, but there has to be a point of diminishing returns with not enough heat and also weight. Also, the 285 is shorter. If we are going to have to shift to 3rd anyways, might as well shift earlier and get there faster. The 315/35/17 with a 7500/7600 Rev limit in the STi might keep us out of 3rd gear at the ProSolos and we would make up a lot there. Last but not least the 275/40/17 and 315/35/17 are the *exact* height, so we could play with a staggered setup if we went 17. Its a tough call as we cannot afford both the 17s and 18s as far as the wheels go (~$2000 a set) so I will be doing lots of thinking and research before I make the purchase.
Either way we will be going with the Kumho V710.
-Tom
| kfoote | 10-26-2004 10:35 AM |
My $0.02 on setting ride heights...
In strut suspensions, generally the lowest you want to go before the suspension geometry starts to go bad is to have the lower A-arms (these may be disguised as something else, but think of a trianglular plane involving the two lowest suspension mounts to the chassis and the lowest mount to the spindle) in a flat horizontal plane.
In strut suspensions, generally the lowest you want to go before the suspension geometry starts to go bad is to have the lower A-arms (these may be disguised as something else, but think of a trianglular plane involving the two lowest suspension mounts to the chassis and the lowest mount to the spindle) in a flat horizontal plane.
| javid | 10-26-2004 03:55 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I always was under the impression that the Teins had too much bump and not enough rebound. When I did the revalve, I did in the range of 15% or so more bump and 50% more rebound valving.
I'm looking forward to getting the dyno charts from our Whiteline Group 4s. We'll be on 12K/10K springs and 24mm swaybars on the STi, and probably end up going to 14K/12K with a revalve if we feel we need more spring.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom, thanks for your imput the other night.
Anyways, I wanted to get your and other's insight on sping rate and dampening vs car weight. Obvisouly sping rate/dampen is an optimization. Too 'stout' can be bad. STiTuner relayed that IrishMike got faster with 600ish lbs/in compared to 700ish. I am sure that alot of things changed, it would be relatively hard to do strait comparisons between the two setups. So...
My layman understanding is that a heavier car will need more spring and dampener. If I pull 200 lbs off the car, would it justify a change in rates, or is it too small to notice? For simplicity lets say I pulled 100 lbs off each end.
Has anyone else pushed the rates up to a point where they were not getting faster? Getting slower?
It seems like even a 100 lb/in change F and R (and appropriate change in dampening) would require tweeking the sway bars / alignment / tire pressure / other. Thoughts....
Any rules of thumb for 'knowing' (signs to look for) when you could go higher or need to go lower.
My questions ignored F/R bias of weight, which certainly complicates the answer. Feel free to address if you guys have time. Also ignore differances between short 'tight' tracks and large 'wide open' tracks, unless you guys have all day.
Thanks
I'm looking forward to getting the dyno charts from our Whiteline Group 4s. We'll be on 12K/10K springs and 24mm swaybars on the STi, and probably end up going to 14K/12K with a revalve if we feel we need more spring.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom, thanks for your imput the other night.
Anyways, I wanted to get your and other's insight on sping rate and dampening vs car weight. Obvisouly sping rate/dampen is an optimization. Too 'stout' can be bad. STiTuner relayed that IrishMike got faster with 600ish lbs/in compared to 700ish. I am sure that alot of things changed, it would be relatively hard to do strait comparisons between the two setups. So...
My layman understanding is that a heavier car will need more spring and dampener. If I pull 200 lbs off the car, would it justify a change in rates, or is it too small to notice? For simplicity lets say I pulled 100 lbs off each end.
Has anyone else pushed the rates up to a point where they were not getting faster? Getting slower?
It seems like even a 100 lb/in change F and R (and appropriate change in dampening) would require tweeking the sway bars / alignment / tire pressure / other. Thoughts....
Any rules of thumb for 'knowing' (signs to look for) when you could go higher or need to go lower.
My questions ignored F/R bias of weight, which certainly complicates the answer. Feel free to address if you guys have time. Also ignore differances between short 'tight' tracks and large 'wide open' tracks, unless you guys have all day.
Thanks
| RaceComp Engineering | 10-26-2004 04:08 PM |
ALot of it is driver preference and feeling. I had 700lb springs on the Porsche at all 4 corners for a while, until I realized it wasnt only good with an open track in front of me and not under race conditions,.as it wasnt forgiving at all. I found this out when a deer jumped out in turn 4,....lets just say we got another sparco and a Recaro seat pad :( .....
The car weighs 2500 lbs with fue, and we found 575 to be good for a dry set up, and 400 wet. But thats with 305 and 285s...
In the early stages we had 400lbs springs all the way around and the car weighed 3000 lbs. We shaved 400 lbs off the car and then the car handled like a dream, until we added bigger brakes, removed the bias bar, and added 100hp. Now it needed more spring rate. We were also eliminating glass and stripping everything,..yet I was still driving it an hour to the track.
944 turbo guy
The car weighs 2500 lbs with fue, and we found 575 to be good for a dry set up, and 400 wet. But thats with 305 and 285s...
In the early stages we had 400lbs springs all the way around and the car weighed 3000 lbs. We shaved 400 lbs off the car and then the car handled like a dream, until we added bigger brakes, removed the bias bar, and added 100hp. Now it needed more spring rate. We were also eliminating glass and stripping everything,..yet I was still driving it an hour to the track.
944 turbo guy
| ChrisDP | 10-26-2004 04:53 PM |
Some other stuff for this thread that we don't have yet... Unfortunately my reference books are back home far far away.
-Wheel Rate equation for a WRX and STi (as a function of spring rate and swaybar diameter) As I don't have an STi, I don't know if the swaybar mounting points are at different points on the control arms, which would give a different motion ratio for the swaybars.
- Suspension frequency calculation (I have this in one of my books at home, but I don't have that here...)
-Wheel Rate equation for a WRX and STi (as a function of spring rate and swaybar diameter) As I don't have an STi, I don't know if the swaybar mounting points are at different points on the control arms, which would give a different motion ratio for the swaybars.
- Suspension frequency calculation (I have this in one of my books at home, but I don't have that here...)
| RaceComp Engineering | 11-04-2004 11:28 PM |
bump to keep the NISABT alive..............
| Homemade WRX | 11-04-2004 11:46 PM |
I'll be following to see if there is anything in there that goes beyond Formula SAE and NASCAR set up...
glad to see advanced stuff is getting hit...more subie specific things :banana:
take it easy, Micah
glad to see advanced stuff is getting hit...more subie specific things :banana:
take it easy, Micah
| RaceComp Engineering | 11-04-2004 11:46 PM |
bump
| siegelracing | 11-05-2004 08:55 AM |
Good stuff. "Tune to Win" by Carrol Smith talks a lot about having enough suspension travel, but not too much. Javid, one of the main things I think we need to watch is the total suspension travel used while on the track. If we're using in the neighborhood of 2 inches each way, we're probably good. If we're using less than 1, we are likely too stiff, and more than 3.5, maybe too soft (not likely).
At this point, we need to see how it works. Hopefully either next Thursday or Friday we can do some significant testing at TGP.
Siegel
At this point, we need to see how it works. Hopefully either next Thursday or Friday we can do some significant testing at TGP.
Siegel
| RaceComp Engineering | 11-05-2004 08:59 AM |
bump for a good thread................ :D
| javid | 11-05-2004 09:27 AM |
[QUOTE=siegelracing]Good stuff. "Tune to Win" by Carrol Smith talks a lot about having enough suspension travel, but not too much. Javid, one of the main things I think we need to watch is the total suspension travel used while on the track. If we're using in the neighborhood of 2 inches each way, we're probably good. If we're using less than 1, we are likely too stiff, and more than 3.5, maybe too soft (not likely).
At this point, we need to see how it works. Hopefully either next Thursday or Friday we can do some significant testing at TGP.
Siegel[/QUOTE]
<-- contemplating what will happen if I call into work 'sick' :lol:
You are right though, 95% of this stuff needs to be figured out on the track (or what ever motorsports venue the car is intended for). I'll bring the zip ties.
At this point, we need to see how it works. Hopefully either next Thursday or Friday we can do some significant testing at TGP.
Siegel[/QUOTE]
<-- contemplating what will happen if I call into work 'sick' :lol:
You are right though, 95% of this stuff needs to be figured out on the track (or what ever motorsports venue the car is intended for). I'll bring the zip ties.
| Homemade WRX | 11-05-2004 11:29 AM |
[QUOTE=siegelracing] "Tune to Win" by Carrol Smith [/QUOTE]
Have the whole collection of his books at the School Motorsports Lab...they are all good...or at least all the one's I've read so far
Have the whole collection of his books at the School Motorsports Lab...they are all good...or at least all the one's I've read so far
| AUTOwrXER | 11-05-2004 02:20 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Before you can get a mile, it will have settled so don't just wait on some magical light to appear on your dash that says "my springs have settled" or anything like that. Anyone who tells you otherwise or that you need a week or something silly like that to "settle the springs" isn't quite up to par. Ideal order: Balance, align, then balance again. :)[/QUOTE]
Actually my 8 Kg/mm Tein springs settled only after half a day of a test and tune session...
Actually my 8 Kg/mm Tein springs settled only after half a day of a test and tune session...
| AUTOwrXER | 11-05-2004 02:24 PM |
[QUOTE=javid]Should be installing the coilovers this week. After the springs have settled, do I need to align then corner balance, balance then align, or repeat one of the two such as balance, align, balance.
I have heard that alignment effects the balance more than one would expect?
Thanks guys[/QUOTE]
Decent article on scaling here: [url]http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=14[/url]
In my experience the corner balance affected the alignment quite a bit. I'm not sure about the opposite effect, but I'd rather have the balance off a few pounds than to have the alignment out. IMO: align, balance, align.
Edit: to BriDrive's point, if you have to skip one then leave out the first alignment.
Joel
I have heard that alignment effects the balance more than one would expect?
Thanks guys[/QUOTE]
Decent article on scaling here: [url]http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=14[/url]
In my experience the corner balance affected the alignment quite a bit. I'm not sure about the opposite effect, but I'd rather have the balance off a few pounds than to have the alignment out. IMO: align, balance, align.
Edit: to BriDrive's point, if you have to skip one then leave out the first alignment.
Joel
| Homemade WRX | 11-05-2004 02:56 PM |
yeah, you can also balance align balance...either way you really have to do one of the steps twice...
| Ru fan | 11-05-2004 03:07 PM |
Here is my delima:
I recently picked up a set of D2 coilovers from a group buy in the Vendor section. Yeah, they are not Zeals, but for the money I having coming in right now, even these were hard to justify for a summer only/track car.
The car:
-1998 Subaru Impreza 4 door L
-2.2L
-5 speed-
-suspect it will weight around 2600lbs with fuel once I remove everything allowed by EMRA rules.
I bought the car last spring off ebay for a song, spent the summer daily driving it, and doing some minor maintaince work. The car is currently in the shop for some minor body work and a repaint.
The D2 suspension:
-36 way combined dampening/rebound
-8k fronts 6k rear
-front and rear camber plates
-spring perch and lower strut adjustable ride height
-wicked light when compaired to stock struts/springs
The coilovers themselves are of a design I have never seen. The strut is fully threaded and the lower bracket where the strut attaches to the hub, is threaded and fully adjustable. What should I use for ride hight adjustment, the spring perch or the bracket? How much preload should I put on the springs with the spring perch adjustments? I have tons of experience with installing subie suspensions, but never coilovers. I am almost lost in the adjustments. In most situations I just max out stock camber and "0 out" the toe. Where should I start with camber, ride height, and dampening? The goal here is a car that can be driven to the track, but still about 90% race car.
I am thinking of setting the car up like this:
-Camber: 3deg. front/ 2deg. rear
-Ride height: get front a-arms "flat"/ rears with slightly higher roll center (latteral arms not flat) so that if helps the back end do a little more of the work in the corners.
-Dampening: Will have to wait to see what the suspension feels like before I can make a guess.
Later,
Seth E.
I recently picked up a set of D2 coilovers from a group buy in the Vendor section. Yeah, they are not Zeals, but for the money I having coming in right now, even these were hard to justify for a summer only/track car.
The car:
-1998 Subaru Impreza 4 door L
-2.2L
-5 speed-
-suspect it will weight around 2600lbs with fuel once I remove everything allowed by EMRA rules.
I bought the car last spring off ebay for a song, spent the summer daily driving it, and doing some minor maintaince work. The car is currently in the shop for some minor body work and a repaint.
The D2 suspension:
-36 way combined dampening/rebound
-8k fronts 6k rear
-front and rear camber plates
-spring perch and lower strut adjustable ride height
-wicked light when compaired to stock struts/springs
The coilovers themselves are of a design I have never seen. The strut is fully threaded and the lower bracket where the strut attaches to the hub, is threaded and fully adjustable. What should I use for ride hight adjustment, the spring perch or the bracket? How much preload should I put on the springs with the spring perch adjustments? I have tons of experience with installing subie suspensions, but never coilovers. I am almost lost in the adjustments. In most situations I just max out stock camber and "0 out" the toe. Where should I start with camber, ride height, and dampening? The goal here is a car that can be driven to the track, but still about 90% race car.
I am thinking of setting the car up like this:
-Camber: 3deg. front/ 2deg. rear
-Ride height: get front a-arms "flat"/ rears with slightly higher roll center (latteral arms not flat) so that if helps the back end do a little more of the work in the corners.
-Dampening: Will have to wait to see what the suspension feels like before I can make a guess.
Later,
Seth E.
| xstar | 11-06-2004 10:46 PM |
Brake question/problem
�
�
My question:
What is the problem with my braking system? The best diagnosis so far is badly boiled brake fluid. I am trying to gather more opinions to pin-point what went wrong.
Story:
I recently attended a 2 day track event at NHIS, running North Oval/South Chicane. During the last session in the second day, around lap 6, I approached turn 1 (chicane) at around 110+ mph. Hit the brakes a little past the "4" sign. Brake pedal to the floor, no brakes.
I immediately turn into a human ABS system, pumping the brakes on-off as I head toward the South Oval wall. I killed a cone. Then attempted to add little bits of steering to turn into the oval. The steering felt like it was working and the banking was scrubbing off my speed. I continued around the oval, pumping the brakes the entire time. I can get very minimal braking each pump. As I approached turn 3, I realized I still didn't have enough braking available to easily make the rest of the road course. I took the escape route in turn 3, then pitted in...
I let the car sit for around 1-2 hours to cool down. Then I did absolutely nothing. Then the pedal is back to normal! Full Strength and good feel!
Here is my brake setup (stock weight):
Subaru 4 pot front calipers
OEM WRX front rotors
Carbotech XP9 brake pads
OEM WRX rear caipers
H6 rear rotors
Carbotech XP8 brake pads
Motul RBF600 brake fluid (bled at the start of the event)
Goodridge SS brake lines
Front brake rotor backing plates removed
No brake ducts
Selected text was retrieved from this thread: [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645560&page=2]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645560&page=2[/URL]
What is the problem with my braking system? The best diagnosis so far is badly boiled brake fluid. I am trying to gather more opinions to pin-point what went wrong.
Story:
I recently attended a 2 day track event at NHIS, running North Oval/South Chicane. During the last session in the second day, around lap 6, I approached turn 1 (chicane) at around 110+ mph. Hit the brakes a little past the "4" sign. Brake pedal to the floor, no brakes.
I immediately turn into a human ABS system, pumping the brakes on-off as I head toward the South Oval wall. I killed a cone. Then attempted to add little bits of steering to turn into the oval. The steering felt like it was working and the banking was scrubbing off my speed. I continued around the oval, pumping the brakes the entire time. I can get very minimal braking each pump. As I approached turn 3, I realized I still didn't have enough braking available to easily make the rest of the road course. I took the escape route in turn 3, then pitted in...
I let the car sit for around 1-2 hours to cool down. Then I did absolutely nothing. Then the pedal is back to normal! Full Strength and good feel!
Here is my brake setup (stock weight):
Subaru 4 pot front calipers
OEM WRX front rotors
Carbotech XP9 brake pads
OEM WRX rear caipers
H6 rear rotors
Carbotech XP8 brake pads
Motul RBF600 brake fluid (bled at the start of the event)
Goodridge SS brake lines
Front brake rotor backing plates removed
No brake ducts
Selected text was retrieved from this thread: [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645560&page=2]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645560&page=2[/URL]
| Templar | 11-07-2004 12:11 AM |
[QUOTE=Ru fan]Here is my delima:
I recently picked up a set of D2 coilovers from a group buy in the Vendor section. Yeah, they are not Zeals, but for the money I having coming in right now, even these were hard to justify for a summer only/track car.
The D2 suspension:
-36 way combined dampening/rebound
-8k fronts 6k rear
-front and rear camber plates
-spring perch and lower strut adjustable ride height
-wicked light when compaired to stock struts/springs
The coilovers themselves are of a design I have never seen. The strut is fully threaded and the lower bracket where the strut attaches to the hub, is threaded and fully adjustable. What should I use for ride hight adjustment, the spring perch or the bracket? How much preload should I put on the springs with the spring perch adjustments? I have tons of experience with installing subie suspensions, but never coilovers. I am almost lost in the adjustments. In most situations I just max out stock camber and "0 out" the toe. Where should I start with camber, ride height, and dampening? The goal here is a car that can be driven to the track, but still about 90% race car.
I am thinking of setting the car up like this:
-Camber: 3deg. front/ 2deg. rear
-Ride height: get front a-arms "flat"/ rears with slightly higher roll center (latteral arms not flat) so that if helps the back end do a little more of the work in the corners.
-Dampening: Will have to wait to see what the suspension feels like before I can make a guess.
Later,
Seth E.[/QUOTE]
Seth,
You want no preload on the springs. You simply want them to be sitting firm in the perches, with no additional preload on them. The lower bracket is what you will use for height and corner weight adjustment.
Also, don't say that the D2s are not Zeals just yet. I had several folks look at the D2 strut that I took with me to the Atlanta Subaru challenge and most were very impressed with it. Judging by the damping feel in them, they actually do not suffer the same affliction most Japanese coilovers have which is not enough rebound damping. The D2s seems to have a bit extra rebound over the other suspensions I have looked at, not to mention the set the I spec'd for my car with extra rebound. They are a monotube design, and have a very good reputation in Japan and Australia. I look forward to getting my set in the car (as soon as the damn new gearset actually arrives) and get the car on the road.
I recently picked up a set of D2 coilovers from a group buy in the Vendor section. Yeah, they are not Zeals, but for the money I having coming in right now, even these were hard to justify for a summer only/track car.
The D2 suspension:
-36 way combined dampening/rebound
-8k fronts 6k rear
-front and rear camber plates
-spring perch and lower strut adjustable ride height
-wicked light when compaired to stock struts/springs
The coilovers themselves are of a design I have never seen. The strut is fully threaded and the lower bracket where the strut attaches to the hub, is threaded and fully adjustable. What should I use for ride hight adjustment, the spring perch or the bracket? How much preload should I put on the springs with the spring perch adjustments? I have tons of experience with installing subie suspensions, but never coilovers. I am almost lost in the adjustments. In most situations I just max out stock camber and "0 out" the toe. Where should I start with camber, ride height, and dampening? The goal here is a car that can be driven to the track, but still about 90% race car.
I am thinking of setting the car up like this:
-Camber: 3deg. front/ 2deg. rear
-Ride height: get front a-arms "flat"/ rears with slightly higher roll center (latteral arms not flat) so that if helps the back end do a little more of the work in the corners.
-Dampening: Will have to wait to see what the suspension feels like before I can make a guess.
Later,
Seth E.[/QUOTE]
Seth,
You want no preload on the springs. You simply want them to be sitting firm in the perches, with no additional preload on them. The lower bracket is what you will use for height and corner weight adjustment.
Also, don't say that the D2s are not Zeals just yet. I had several folks look at the D2 strut that I took with me to the Atlanta Subaru challenge and most were very impressed with it. Judging by the damping feel in them, they actually do not suffer the same affliction most Japanese coilovers have which is not enough rebound damping. The D2s seems to have a bit extra rebound over the other suspensions I have looked at, not to mention the set the I spec'd for my car with extra rebound. They are a monotube design, and have a very good reputation in Japan and Australia. I look forward to getting my set in the car (as soon as the damn new gearset actually arrives) and get the car on the road.
| Butt Dyno | 11-16-2004 01:37 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]Obviously contact Koni Lee for specifics on getting dyno work done, [/QUOTE]How can you contact Koni Lee? :)
john
john
| DrBiggly | 11-16-2004 01:46 PM |
I think he means Lee Grimes from Koni. :)
| Butt Dyno | 11-16-2004 02:16 PM |
I know - I have seen him referenced on h-t threads - I am just not sure what I have to do to get in touch.
I would just be interested to see what my soon-to-be-coilovers' dyno sheet looks like :)
john
I would just be interested to see what my soon-to-be-coilovers' dyno sheet looks like :)
john
| DrBiggly | 11-16-2004 02:39 PM |
It won't look near as good as some; JICs really do not have enough rebound.
| Butt Dyno | 11-16-2004 03:00 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]It won't look near as good as some; JICs really do not have enough rebound.[/QUOTE]Eh, either way, I haven't found any for the JIC's yet, it would be like doing a public service or something :)
I finally found the right thread, so just to get it in the NASIOC archives if it's not already there:
[quote=CRX Lee]I would be happy to dyno the Type R Bilstein Sports that you have and really about any other brand or model of dampers within reason in the name of data comparisons. Please ship them with a cover letter including all pertinent info to:
KONI North America
ATTN: Lee Grimes
1961A International Way
Hebron, KY 41048[/quote]
I don't have a phone number, but other info is here:
[url]http://www.honda-tech.com/zerouser?cmd=viewprofile&id=999327915[/url]
john
I finally found the right thread, so just to get it in the NASIOC archives if it's not already there:
[quote=CRX Lee]I would be happy to dyno the Type R Bilstein Sports that you have and really about any other brand or model of dampers within reason in the name of data comparisons. Please ship them with a cover letter including all pertinent info to:
KONI North America
ATTN: Lee Grimes
1961A International Way
Hebron, KY 41048[/quote]
I don't have a phone number, but other info is here:
[url]http://www.honda-tech.com/zerouser?cmd=viewprofile&id=999327915[/url]
john
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