| AndrewSS | 02-06-2006 05:52 PM |
Check out this cusco bolt in "cage" - seems very unsafe!
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I dont understand how this item can be sold... it seems like to me it wont help much in a motorsports accident, it seems very incomplete, no good side impact protection...
People experienced with cages and race car setup weigh in on this, because to me it seems extremely unsafe, especially since this guys drives this on the street with no helmet!
[url]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=182799&page=1&pp=15[/url]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/bmxpert57/IMG_1821.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/bmxpert57/IMG_1818.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/bmxpert57/IMG_1822.jpg[/img]
-Andrew
People experienced with cages and race car setup weigh in on this, because to me it seems extremely unsafe, especially since this guys drives this on the street with no helmet!
[url]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=182799&page=1&pp=15[/url]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/bmxpert57/IMG_1821.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/bmxpert57/IMG_1818.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/bmxpert57/IMG_1822.jpg[/img]
-Andrew
| REX8 | 02-06-2006 05:59 PM |
No good side impact protection compared to what!!!
It is certainly safer than stock is concerned as far as side impact and roll-over. So your asking how they can sell something that is safer than stock???
I must say its probably pretty easy to sell something that makes your car SAFER than it was.
Its not the best design, but it serves a purpose in a street car that does double duty. I know what it is like to get a production cage certified for resale, I'm sure that passed AOK. Let alone the steps their insurance company must make then do to get it approved.
But anyway....easy to get in and out of + improvement over stock = MUCH better than nothing....
It might not meet every sanctioning bodies requirements, but I'm sure it will pass many of them.
It is certainly safer than stock is concerned as far as side impact and roll-over. So your asking how they can sell something that is safer than stock???
I must say its probably pretty easy to sell something that makes your car SAFER than it was.
Its not the best design, but it serves a purpose in a street car that does double duty. I know what it is like to get a production cage certified for resale, I'm sure that passed AOK. Let alone the steps their insurance company must make then do to get it approved.
But anyway....easy to get in and out of + improvement over stock = MUCH better than nothing....
It might not meet every sanctioning bodies requirements, but I'm sure it will pass many of them.
| leecea | 02-06-2006 06:05 PM |
The bar on the C pillar looks like it will cause big problems for rear passenger's head in a side impact. That is one of the things they check for in side impact crash tests and I think that aspect is worse than stock.
| ChrisDP | 02-06-2006 06:07 PM |
There is nothing safe about a bare metal pipe beside your head. It has no diagonal x-bracing for the main hoop. All of the joints on it are pinned. Pins swivel. They're not as strong as a good welded fishmouth in axial loading either. The bends in the rear hoop supports destroy any contribution to structural integrity they might have otherwise had.
Compared to a GOOD cage, this thing will crumple like a tincan. I would MUCH prefer rolling a car with the factory roll structures than this contraption around me. At least I have a chance of not having my car play Frog Baseball with my brain. (Beavis and Butthead, anyone?)
But I do like the shade of blue. That's hot.
Compared to a GOOD cage, this thing will crumple like a tincan. I would MUCH prefer rolling a car with the factory roll structures than this contraption around me. At least I have a chance of not having my car play Frog Baseball with my brain. (Beavis and Butthead, anyone?)
But I do like the shade of blue. That's hot.
| AndrewSS | 02-06-2006 06:13 PM |
look at this bolt in cage on an STi, it seems significantly better than the cusco one in that evo.
[img]http://www.iwsti.com/images/racecar/roof-liner-off.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.iwsti.com/images/racecar/1.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.iwsti.com/images/cage10.jpg[/img]
it looks way better designed, like it actually will work... im not an expert, I am asking those of you who are experienced in this to weigh in!
[img]http://www.iwsti.com/images/racecar/roof-liner-off.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.iwsti.com/images/racecar/1.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.iwsti.com/images/cage10.jpg[/img]
it looks way better designed, like it actually will work... im not an expert, I am asking those of you who are experienced in this to weigh in!
| zzyzx | 02-06-2006 06:31 PM |
If safety were your priority, you wouldn't be using a bolt in cage in the first place. A rollbar, perhaps, but not a cage. The CUSCO cage looks like it isn't worth the DOM tubing it took to manufacturer it.
| nate49509 | 02-06-2006 06:35 PM |
It seems fine for what it is. A glorified roll bar.
| greg donovan | 02-06-2006 06:50 PM |
in the Japanese Dirt trial series there is a very large class that doesnt allow weld in cages. it is meant to keep costs down. my guess is that they assume that if the cage is marginally safe (at best) that drivers wont build a ton of power in their cars and speeds will be lower.
the dirt trial series is a combination of a high speed track day and american rallycross.
the dirt trial series is a combination of a high speed track day and american rallycross.
| AlexP | 02-06-2006 08:06 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8]
It might not meet every sanctioning bodies requirements, but I'm sure it will pass many of them.[/QUOTE]
It won't meet any of the following sanctioning bodies requirements (even for a "roll bar"):
SCCA
NASA
EMRA
Rally-America
I would bet that this cage won't meet ANY sanctioning bodies requirements in North America.
It might not meet every sanctioning bodies requirements, but I'm sure it will pass many of them.[/QUOTE]
It won't meet any of the following sanctioning bodies requirements (even for a "roll bar"):
SCCA
NASA
EMRA
Rally-America
I would bet that this cage won't meet ANY sanctioning bodies requirements in North America.
| Butt Dyno | 02-06-2006 08:19 PM |
The guys at evolutionm.net are already smacking him down, not sure why you posted this here...
| Zoinks | 02-06-2006 08:48 PM |
I don't know who you guys think you are. Cusco is mad JDM.
[i]JDM![/i]
Plus it's blue, and it says Cusco [b][u]Racing[/u][/b] right on it. What are your weakass USDM sanctioning bodies gonna say to that?
[i]JDM![/i]
Plus it's blue, and it says Cusco [b][u]Racing[/u][/b] right on it. What are your weakass USDM sanctioning bodies gonna say to that?
| bjorn240 | 02-06-2006 08:57 PM |
This thread makes me sad. I'm especially sad it's in motorsports. I think it should be in "I like to play dress-up." Both those "cages" are hopeless.
Oh, and REX8, that thing is much [u]less[/u] safe than stock!
- Christian
Oh, and REX8, that thing is much [u]less[/u] safe than stock!
- Christian
| Eleazar | 02-06-2006 09:06 PM |
dress up.. exactly. Notice the Bride seats that say...
BRIDE
BRIDE
BRIDE
BRIDE
...letting everyone know you have the bestest, most blingin and overpriced seats up in here.
BRIDE
BRIDE
BRIDE
BRIDE
...letting everyone know you have the bestest, most blingin and overpriced seats up in here.
| JDO | 02-06-2006 09:09 PM |
Ewww bolt in. Pretty much useless. Its welds or nothing.
| Butt Dyno | 02-06-2006 09:10 PM |
[QUOTE=mydaddy'slambo]no the bars will just go through my dash lol. This is a show cage..had no intent to be for racing plus i wanted to maintain rear seat for passengers[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Butt Dyno]You're going to have people sitting back there????[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=mydaddy'slambo]um yes this is a 4dr is it not? also the only bars that could "possibly" be harmfull is the one next to the b pillar..but thats why they make seatbelts. I thinnk it sohuld be fine...only people who ride back there are my freinds and they know the consequences if i did(knock on wood) get ina wreck. but rarley i ever have people back there[/QUOTE]
umm... yeah...
[QUOTE=Butt Dyno]You're going to have people sitting back there????[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=mydaddy'slambo]um yes this is a 4dr is it not? also the only bars that could "possibly" be harmfull is the one next to the b pillar..but thats why they make seatbelts. I thinnk it sohuld be fine...only people who ride back there are my freinds and they know the consequences if i did(knock on wood) get ina wreck. but rarley i ever have people back there[/QUOTE]
umm... yeah...
| Draken | 02-06-2006 09:35 PM |
Didn't realize we had so many "experts" on this forum.
| WRXster | 02-06-2006 09:43 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]Didn't realize we had so many "experts" on this forum.[/QUOTE]
You must be new here... :disco:
You must be new here... :disco:
| DrBiggly | 02-06-2006 10:54 PM |
I saw this thing in their demo cars on a TV show just earlier this evening and thought "Uh, what the heck is that bizarre banana-like bend by the A-pillar?" I didn't see the one by the C-pillar.
Looks like bling to me. :)
-Biggly
Looks like bling to me. :)
-Biggly
| akuhner | 02-07-2006 09:17 AM |
Rice...
| Chromer | 02-07-2006 09:34 AM |
[QUOTE=AlexP]It won't meet any of the following sanctioning bodies requirements (even for a "roll bar"):
SCCA
NASA
EMRA
Rally-America
I would bet that this cage won't meet ANY sanctioning bodies requirements in North America.[/QUOTE]
Maybe NHRA < 11 second > 9 second or something. Don't quote me on that.
SCCA
NASA
EMRA
Rally-America
I would bet that this cage won't meet ANY sanctioning bodies requirements in North America.[/QUOTE]
Maybe NHRA < 11 second > 9 second or something. Don't quote me on that.
| ChrisDP | 02-07-2006 10:33 AM |
Drag cages are a lot more sturdy than this.
| ratt_finkel | 02-07-2006 11:01 AM |
I'll take one!
| awesome2.5rs | 02-07-2006 11:11 AM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]Drag cages are a lot more sturdy than this.[/QUOTE]
Quite true, my dad has a car and runs at NHRA events, his cage must get inspected before each event, and something like this would never even come close to passing!! Would probably give the tech guys a good laugh
Quite true, my dad has a car and runs at NHRA events, his cage must get inspected before each event, and something like this would never even come close to passing!! Would probably give the tech guys a good laugh
| endeavor | 02-07-2006 11:31 AM |
The guy says in his OP on EvoM that the cage is just for show, not motorsports. If he wants to do weird things to his car, I am not going to try and stop him.
| bjorn240 | 02-07-2006 11:38 AM |
[QUOTE=endeavor]The guy says in his OP on EvoM that the cage is just for show, not motorsports.[/QUOTE]
/thread in Motorsports.
- Christian
/thread in Motorsports.
- Christian
| dowroa | 02-07-2006 12:22 PM |
Wow. If this was posted on NASIOC anywhere EXCEPT for the ICE section, he == OTtered. I think this should be put in the motorsports FAQ of how NOT to do things in the name of saftey.
- dow
- dow
| enduroshark | 02-07-2006 12:24 PM |
Just as bad as those A-pillar mounted extinguishers just asking to become a projectile in an accident.
As a multiple time racing accident survivor, I am not afraid of a bolt-in cage as long as it is well designed, built and installed. I am afraid of that cage, even on the street. It would most likely fold like a mousetrap.
As a multiple time racing accident survivor, I am not afraid of a bolt-in cage as long as it is well designed, built and installed. I am afraid of that cage, even on the street. It would most likely fold like a mousetrap.
| Safe Drives | 02-07-2006 01:09 PM |
Hi All,
The original poster asked for experienced opinions. Since I love NASIOC and all I do all day is work with / sell safety related product through my bussiness ([url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]), I felt compelled to respond. :) I am a SFI /Rally America certified scrutineer but not a mechanical engineer so you can base your judgement of my opinion on these facts.
My opinion:
I think that anything that adds structure and mass to a vehicle could be said to add safety so long as it does not compromise safety in another way (read "no padding"). So in that respect this poor excuse for a roll cage could be said that it adds safety so long as the owner pads the heck out of it in the head impact areas and it is mounted according to the manufacturers instructions... Would I sell a roll cage like that on safedrives.com? No, to me it's not a true safety product and all we sell at Safe Drives LLC are auto safety products. All of the cage products at safedrives.com (four cage kit manufacturers) will pass technical scrutineering at some form of sanctioned race here in North America. I think that the pictured cage was designed with "show" in mind. I know Cusco makes some better designed, even FIA homologated bolt in roll cage kits but that is not the FIA rated kit.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
The original poster asked for experienced opinions. Since I love NASIOC and all I do all day is work with / sell safety related product through my bussiness ([url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]), I felt compelled to respond. :) I am a SFI /Rally America certified scrutineer but not a mechanical engineer so you can base your judgement of my opinion on these facts.
My opinion:
I think that anything that adds structure and mass to a vehicle could be said to add safety so long as it does not compromise safety in another way (read "no padding"). So in that respect this poor excuse for a roll cage could be said that it adds safety so long as the owner pads the heck out of it in the head impact areas and it is mounted according to the manufacturers instructions... Would I sell a roll cage like that on safedrives.com? No, to me it's not a true safety product and all we sell at Safe Drives LLC are auto safety products. All of the cage products at safedrives.com (four cage kit manufacturers) will pass technical scrutineering at some form of sanctioned race here in North America. I think that the pictured cage was designed with "show" in mind. I know Cusco makes some better designed, even FIA homologated bolt in roll cage kits but that is not the FIA rated kit.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
| MFR Sweep | 02-07-2006 01:26 PM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]Would I sell a roll cage like that on safedrives.com? No, to me it's not a true safety product and all we sell at Safe Drives LLC are auto safety products. [/QUOTE]
Now that you stuck your head out........ did you or did you not sell [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932504&page=1]this cage?[/URL] Now we have a discussion as this cage appears to be quite dangerous even if padded and wearing a helmet.
Now that you stuck your head out........ did you or did you not sell [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932504&page=1]this cage?[/URL] Now we have a discussion as this cage appears to be quite dangerous even if padded and wearing a helmet.
| Butt Dyno | 02-07-2006 02:01 PM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]So in that respect this poor excuse for a roll cage could be said that it adds safety so long as the owner pads the heck out of it in the head impact areas [/QUOTE]So it's your position that rollbar padding is sufficient to prevent an unhelmeted head from being injured in an accident?
| MFR Sweep | 02-07-2006 02:40 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno]So it's your position that rollbar padding is sufficient to prevent an unhelmeted head from being injured in an accident?[/QUOTE]
Sounds like
[IMG]http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/336829/2/istockphoto_336829_bullsh_t.jpg[/IMG]
To me!
Sounds like
[IMG]http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/336829/2/istockphoto_336829_bullsh_t.jpg[/IMG]
To me!
| trhoppe | 02-07-2006 02:52 PM |
While we are piming out cages :p
This is what a proper cage looks like. Even this one doesn't have any "extra" protection as we didn't want too much weight in the cage. This was a Robinson Racing cage from here in GA.
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/pictures/2005_08_29_Cage_Done/images/IMG_3103.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/pictures/2005_08_29_Cage_Done/images/IMG_3115.jpg[/img]
Lots more pictures here [url]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/gallery.asp[/url]
(yes that padding was just to not scratch it, there is proper FIA padding in there now :)
-Tom
This is what a proper cage looks like. Even this one doesn't have any "extra" protection as we didn't want too much weight in the cage. This was a Robinson Racing cage from here in GA.
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/pictures/2005_08_29_Cage_Done/images/IMG_3103.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/pictures/2005_08_29_Cage_Done/images/IMG_3115.jpg[/img]
Lots more pictures here [url]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/gallery.asp[/url]
(yes that padding was just to not scratch it, there is proper FIA padding in there now :)
-Tom
| PARANOID56 | 02-07-2006 03:03 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]
(yes that padding was just to not scratch it, there is proper FIA padding in there now :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Good, i was just about to post someting about that padding :D
(yes that padding was just to not scratch it, there is proper FIA padding in there now :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Good, i was just about to post someting about that padding :D
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 03:32 PM |
What is the 4 gauge red wire for, your amp? ;)
| zzyzx | 02-07-2006 03:37 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]What is the 4 gauge red wire for, your amp? ;)[/QUOTE]
It's called "Touring" for a reason, ya know. :)
It's called "Touring" for a reason, ya know. :)
| rex n effect | 02-07-2006 03:44 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]What is the 4 gauge red wire for, your amp? ;)[/QUOTE]maybe the battery ;)
| cooleyjb | 02-07-2006 03:48 PM |
I was hoping to use the backseat with this cage. Is that okay/safe?? :confused:
[IMG]http://www.rally.subaru.com/rally/images/b28.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.rally.subaru.com/rally/images/b28.jpg[/IMG]
| PARANOID56 | 02-07-2006 03:55 PM |
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep]Now that you stuck your head out........ did you or did you not sell [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932504&page=1]this cage?[/URL] Now we have a discussion as this cage appears to be quite dangerous even if padded and wearing a helmet.[/QUOTE]
Yea, i second this. do tell.
Shane
Yea, i second this. do tell.
Shane
| GEARHEAD23 | 02-07-2006 03:57 PM |
^^^^^Sure throw a couple of ,umpa lumpa's in the back seat and let them pinball all around, Then you will have a nice interior ,red and purple paint job.
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 03:59 PM |
[QUOTE=rex n effect]maybe the battery ;)[/QUOTE]
Not in an SCCA Touring car.
Not in an SCCA Touring car.
| leecea | 02-07-2006 04:16 PM |
So, how do you know when a cage is good enough for its purpose?
Mr Hoppe's cage (touring car) is presumably a pretty serious cage but is a lot different than the one posted by cooleyjb (rally?).
How much is art versus science when doing a cage?
Mr Hoppe's cage (touring car) is presumably a pretty serious cage but is a lot different than the one posted by cooleyjb (rally?).
How much is art versus science when doing a cage?
| cooleyjb | 02-07-2006 04:23 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]So, how do you know when a cage is good enough for its purpose?
Mr Hoppe's cage (touring car) is presumably a pretty serious cage but is a lot different than the one posted by cooleyjb (rally?).
How much is art versus science when doing a cage?[/QUOTE]
the previous pic I posted is one of the subaru rally cars being build. I think Hoppe had a thread about it a while back. It showed from bare chassis and seam welding to finished product.
Mr Hoppe's cage (touring car) is presumably a pretty serious cage but is a lot different than the one posted by cooleyjb (rally?).
How much is art versus science when doing a cage?[/QUOTE]
the previous pic I posted is one of the subaru rally cars being build. I think Hoppe had a thread about it a while back. It showed from bare chassis and seam welding to finished product.
| BraveUlysses | 02-07-2006 04:42 PM |
Bolt in rollcage? More like LOLCAGE
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 04:42 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]So, how do you know when a cage is good enough for its purpose?
Mr Hoppe's cage (touring car) is presumably a pretty serious cage but is a lot different than the one posted by cooleyjb (rally?).
How much is art versus science when doing a cage?[/QUOTE]
It's "good enough" when it passes tech for the event being entered into.
The rally one from a weight to function perspective would not appear to have been seeking efficiency. With as busy as it is throwing tubes everywhere between the main hoop and the rear strut tops there isn't a single horizontal tube in the main hoop.
It's good enough and would pass tech but I would feel a lot better at the prospect of a rock or tree jumping out and t-boning me with some horiztonal cross car support across the bottom and middle of the main hoop and remove about 6 extraneous tubes from the rear (IMO).
Mr Hoppe's cage (touring car) is presumably a pretty serious cage but is a lot different than the one posted by cooleyjb (rally?).
How much is art versus science when doing a cage?[/QUOTE]
It's "good enough" when it passes tech for the event being entered into.
The rally one from a weight to function perspective would not appear to have been seeking efficiency. With as busy as it is throwing tubes everywhere between the main hoop and the rear strut tops there isn't a single horizontal tube in the main hoop.
It's good enough and would pass tech but I would feel a lot better at the prospect of a rock or tree jumping out and t-boning me with some horiztonal cross car support across the bottom and middle of the main hoop and remove about 6 extraneous tubes from the rear (IMO).
| trhoppe | 02-07-2006 05:13 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]What is the 4 gauge red wire for, your amp? ;)[/QUOTE]
Eat me :p
This was for the amp and it was before the alarm/keyless/etc etc etc etc got removed.
My cage was made for an impact with a barrier or another car. The rally cage is made for multiple imacts with trees. Ends up being a different design. Also, the WRC can strip weight in other places and we have to try to stay as light on the cage as possible as we are already overweight. According to the cage builders we are the optimum "safety for weight" point with ours. The only thing I was considering adding was a "cross bar" from the front top left A pillar to the rear right of the B pillar across the roof and triangulate the rear bars that go to the shock towers. That should add maybe 15lbs but should add some definete structual integrity. It'll happen right before the runoffs, when we remove the windows.
-Tom
edit: tittywop of the two bars we will be adding
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/misc_pics/brace1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/misc_pics/brace2.jpg[/img]
Eat me :p
This was for the amp and it was before the alarm/keyless/etc etc etc etc got removed.
My cage was made for an impact with a barrier or another car. The rally cage is made for multiple imacts with trees. Ends up being a different design. Also, the WRC can strip weight in other places and we have to try to stay as light on the cage as possible as we are already overweight. According to the cage builders we are the optimum "safety for weight" point with ours. The only thing I was considering adding was a "cross bar" from the front top left A pillar to the rear right of the B pillar across the roof and triangulate the rear bars that go to the shock towers. That should add maybe 15lbs but should add some definete structual integrity. It'll happen right before the runoffs, when we remove the windows.
-Tom
edit: tittywop of the two bars we will be adding
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/misc_pics/brace1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/misc_pics/brace2.jpg[/img]
| fliz | 02-07-2006 05:21 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]It's "good enough" when it passes tech for the event being entered into.
The rally one from a weight to function perspective would not appear to have been seeking efficiency. With as busy as it is throwing tubes everywhere between the main hoop and the rear strut tops there isn't a single horizontal tube in the main hoop.
It's good enough and would pass tech but I would feel a lot better at the prospect of a rock or tree jumping out and t-boning me with some horiztonal cross car support across the bottom and middle of the main hoop and remove about 6 extraneous tubes from the rear (IMO).[/QUOTE]
:lol:
And now the real experts chime in...
Not to devalue your expert opinion...but I'd trust Vermont Sportscar to build a safe cage.
From the wrecks I saw last year, they are VERY well built and allow drivers to walk away from a wide variety of nasty accidents.
The rally one from a weight to function perspective would not appear to have been seeking efficiency. With as busy as it is throwing tubes everywhere between the main hoop and the rear strut tops there isn't a single horizontal tube in the main hoop.
It's good enough and would pass tech but I would feel a lot better at the prospect of a rock or tree jumping out and t-boning me with some horiztonal cross car support across the bottom and middle of the main hoop and remove about 6 extraneous tubes from the rear (IMO).[/QUOTE]
:lol:
And now the real experts chime in...
Not to devalue your expert opinion...but I'd trust Vermont Sportscar to build a safe cage.
From the wrecks I saw last year, they are VERY well built and allow drivers to walk away from a wide variety of nasty accidents.
| kwh29 | 02-07-2006 05:46 PM |
Nice cage Tom. I assume the straight bars on the side are required by the rules? (vs NASCAR bars that bend out into the doors)
Edit: TurboICE, that VT Car cage is an FIA homologated group-n cage IIRC from reading the VT Car website. If you go check out the FIA specs and the rulebook whatever was homologated has to be built exactly as-is. There is no room for the builder to interpret on the cage. I trust the FIA's computational simulations a lot more than some yahoo on teh InArnet saying "oh that looks too heavy" lol.
--Kevin H.
Edit: TurboICE, that VT Car cage is an FIA homologated group-n cage IIRC from reading the VT Car website. If you go check out the FIA specs and the rulebook whatever was homologated has to be built exactly as-is. There is no room for the builder to interpret on the cage. I trust the FIA's computational simulations a lot more than some yahoo on teh InArnet saying "oh that looks too heavy" lol.
--Kevin H.
| javid | 02-07-2006 05:53 PM |
A bolt in is certainly 'safer' than stock. Likewise, argueing about safety on the internet is 'safer' than driving a car on track. Most anyone that is serious about road race or rally will have a very strong cage welded in because they are dedicating the car to the sport.
Of course, the more padding on a caged car the better...
It will make your cage feel softer than say the B and C pillars that even pretentious motor sport gurus can hit their heads on.
The "cheep padding" (like in Hoppe's car before he finished) is actually much nicer to bang your head on compared to the "good padding" that most will end up using around the driver's area. The reason for buying the good stuff is because it will last much longer and with a helmet on the two feel about the same. The cheap padding is not 'unsafe'; just has to be replace more often cause it falls apart after being climbed on.
Of course, the more padding on a caged car the better...
It will make your cage feel softer than say the B and C pillars that even pretentious motor sport gurus can hit their heads on.
The "cheep padding" (like in Hoppe's car before he finished) is actually much nicer to bang your head on compared to the "good padding" that most will end up using around the driver's area. The reason for buying the good stuff is because it will last much longer and with a helmet on the two feel about the same. The cheap padding is not 'unsafe'; just has to be replace more often cause it falls apart after being climbed on.
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 06:01 PM |
Tom absolutely optimum in efficiency and safety - I have thought from the beginning it was ideal for Touring 2! And you know I was busting your chops on the 2 pounds of distributed ballast!
To the others learn how to read before you cheerlead down someone's throat. Where did I once say it wasn't safe? Where did I once say that it wouldn't pass FIA?
FIA has minimums you can add from there and that cage is beyond FIA minimums and as stated IMO weighs more than it needs to for its effect (at least 6 of those bars do not add more to safety of the driver and co-driver) and the same weight could have been better spent elsewhere in the cage. Anything beyond the minimum sanctioning body requirement is a matter of opinion and it was stated as such that my opinion (based on laws of physics) is that a main hoop with a horizontal tube at the bottom and middle of the main hoop is safer than without them. But again if either of you could read what was written instead of spouting off because you thought someone was dissing - you would have seen I never said any of the things you thought I said.
Ed H.
To the others learn how to read before you cheerlead down someone's throat. Where did I once say it wasn't safe? Where did I once say that it wouldn't pass FIA?
FIA has minimums you can add from there and that cage is beyond FIA minimums and as stated IMO weighs more than it needs to for its effect (at least 6 of those bars do not add more to safety of the driver and co-driver) and the same weight could have been better spent elsewhere in the cage. Anything beyond the minimum sanctioning body requirement is a matter of opinion and it was stated as such that my opinion (based on laws of physics) is that a main hoop with a horizontal tube at the bottom and middle of the main hoop is safer than without them. But again if either of you could read what was written instead of spouting off because you thought someone was dissing - you would have seen I never said any of the things you thought I said.
Ed H.
| trhoppe | 02-07-2006 06:15 PM |
[QUOTE=kwh29]Nice cage Tom. I assume the straight bars on the side are required by the rules? (vs NASCAR bars that bend out into the doors)
--Kevin H.[/QUOTE]
No, those are by definition NASCAR bars ;) The drivers side extends into the door. If you look in the gallery you can see we cut away all the door paneling. It actually hits the metal too, so that will be cut away and the glass removed when its time for teh runoffs. I'd rather do the regional/national stuff with the glass still in for towing :)
-Tom
--Kevin H.[/QUOTE]
No, those are by definition NASCAR bars ;) The drivers side extends into the door. If you look in the gallery you can see we cut away all the door paneling. It actually hits the metal too, so that will be cut away and the glass removed when its time for teh runoffs. I'd rather do the regional/national stuff with the glass still in for towing :)
-Tom
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 06:17 PM |
Apparently some Vermont SportsCar customers agree:
[IMG]http://www.vtcar.com/gallery/red_wrx/img/wrx12_lg.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.vtcar.com/update/cars/vr4/g10_800.jpg[/IMG]
I am sure VT SC will build anything a team or driver wants that goes beyond FIA requirements. Again I never dissed VT I said it wouldn't be the way I would go about it. And apparently VT is willing to do it whatever way their customer asks that has the FIA minimum.
FIA does not mandate horizontals, they are optional; but an option I would myself prefer and it is exactly that a matter of preference. Many rally cars are not built with them for a reason their teams and drivers can explain, some are and I agree with those parties.
[IMG]http://www.vtcar.com/gallery/red_wrx/img/wrx12_lg.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.vtcar.com/update/cars/vr4/g10_800.jpg[/IMG]
I am sure VT SC will build anything a team or driver wants that goes beyond FIA requirements. Again I never dissed VT I said it wouldn't be the way I would go about it. And apparently VT is willing to do it whatever way their customer asks that has the FIA minimum.
FIA does not mandate horizontals, they are optional; but an option I would myself prefer and it is exactly that a matter of preference. Many rally cars are not built with them for a reason their teams and drivers can explain, some are and I agree with those parties.
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 06:20 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]No, those are by definition NASCAR bars ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
By SCCA definition! Funny that they would use NASCAR as a term they define in their glossary!
Yeah the SCCA GCR mandates touring to have "NASCAR bar" on the driver door but the definition in the glossary is one that may not be agreed to by those in NASCAR. Passenger door is optional to put a "NASCAR bar" in. (Not for you obviously Tom but to expand for others.)
Ed H.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
By SCCA definition! Funny that they would use NASCAR as a term they define in their glossary!
Yeah the SCCA GCR mandates touring to have "NASCAR bar" on the driver door but the definition in the glossary is one that may not be agreed to by those in NASCAR. Passenger door is optional to put a "NASCAR bar" in. (Not for you obviously Tom but to expand for others.)
Ed H.
| bjorn240 | 02-07-2006 07:56 PM |
[QUOTE=javid]The reason for buying the good stuff is because it will last much longer and with a helmet on the two feel about the same. The cheap padding is not 'unsafe'; just has to be replace more often cause it falls apart after being climbed on.[/QUOTE]
The above statement is false. SFI/FIA padding functions much like EPS foam, and acts to manage and dissipate the energy from an impact while it crushes. The padding pictured has such marginal energy absorption effects as to be completely useless in a real accident.
There is a difference between banging your head getting in the car and being involved in a significant accident where your helmeted head might touch a part of the roll cage. Plumbing insulation is not safety equipment.
FIA norms for rollcage padding: [url]http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/65259021__FIA_Stand_8857_2001_Rollcage.pdf[/url]
- Christian
The above statement is false. SFI/FIA padding functions much like EPS foam, and acts to manage and dissipate the energy from an impact while it crushes. The padding pictured has such marginal energy absorption effects as to be completely useless in a real accident.
There is a difference between banging your head getting in the car and being involved in a significant accident where your helmeted head might touch a part of the roll cage. Plumbing insulation is not safety equipment.
FIA norms for rollcage padding: [url]http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/65259021__FIA_Stand_8857_2001_Rollcage.pdf[/url]
- Christian
| bjorn240 | 02-07-2006 08:06 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]FIA has minimums you can add from there and that cage is beyond FIA minimums and as stated IMO weighs more than it needs to for its effect (at least 6 of those bars do not add more to safety of the driver and co-driver) and the same weight could have been better spent elsewhere in the cage.[/QUOTE]
This is incorrect, when it comes to homologated cages, as pictured. Per article 253, no modifications to a homologated cage are allowed. Art. 253 is conveniently hyperlinked, here: [url]http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/848909206__AppJ_2004_Art_253.pdf[/url]
The part you need to reference is paragraph 8.6 in its entirety.
Also, the red car you took a picture of is a PGT car. PGT cars don't require FIA homologated cages, though one could, if one wanted to, fit one.
- Christian
This is incorrect, when it comes to homologated cages, as pictured. Per article 253, no modifications to a homologated cage are allowed. Art. 253 is conveniently hyperlinked, here: [url]http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/848909206__AppJ_2004_Art_253.pdf[/url]
The part you need to reference is paragraph 8.6 in its entirety.
Also, the red car you took a picture of is a PGT car. PGT cars don't require FIA homologated cages, though one could, if one wanted to, fit one.
- Christian
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 08:08 PM |
[IMG]http://www.rallylights.com/BSCI/BSCI%20Images/FIA_Roll_Bar_Padding.jpg[/IMG]
The economy foam stuff has been shown in testing to not be much different from hitting the bar directly - which if you are putting padding in order to be "safer" than a bare bar is essentially unsafe.
And while SFI hasn't made their way to total joke yet - they have shown pretty clearly that thier saftey standards are more concerned about their manufacturing members profits than driver safety at least relative to FIA standards which are pretty clearly designed first and foremost to the safety of the user of their homologated equipment.
The economy foam stuff has been shown in testing to not be much different from hitting the bar directly - which if you are putting padding in order to be "safer" than a bare bar is essentially unsafe.
And while SFI hasn't made their way to total joke yet - they have shown pretty clearly that thier saftey standards are more concerned about their manufacturing members profits than driver safety at least relative to FIA standards which are pretty clearly designed first and foremost to the safety of the user of their homologated equipment.
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 08:32 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240]This is incorrect, when it comes to homologated cages, as pictured. Per article 253, no modifications to a homologated cage are allowed. Art. 253 is conveniently hyperlinked, here: [url]http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/848909206__AppJ_2004_Art_253.pdf[/url]
The part you need to reference is paragraph 8.6 in its entirety.
Also, the red car you took a picture of is a PGT car. PGT cars don't require FIA homologated cages, though one could, if one wanted to, fit one.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Your response is only accurate as far as you take it, but your failure to take it within the context of the full rule set makes your conclusion regarding my comments flawed. The implication above is that there is one and only one homologated cage design and that design is the only one available. When in fact there is no single mandated design that can not be varied from.
[quote]8.4 Homologation by an ASN
Not valid for the safety cages for Super 1600, Super 2000 and World Rally Cars that must be mandatorily homologated by the FIA according to Article 8.5.
Safety cage manufacturers may submit a safety cage of their own design to an ASN for approval.
The safety cage must comply with the following:...
8.5 FIA homologation
Any car manufacturer has the possibility of having steel safety rollcages homologated with the FIA.
The design of theses rollcages is free but:...[/quote]
There are compulsory members for homologation and there are optional members which may be utilized and receive homologation. The design for the Subaru team has both compulsory components and optional components in its homologated cage. There are other designs that have also been homologated by submission to the FIA that include other optional components. There are still other designs that can be arrived at that would also receive homologation but for the lack of being submitted.
So while its true once the cage installed is homologated it can not be deviated from - an alernate design may still be homologated.
The various alternate designs that are specifically listed in article 253 are conveniently hyperlinked here:
[URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/76161938__P06_2006.pdf]Board N�06 Drawings N� 253-1 to 11 - document update: 14.12.2005[/URL]
and
[URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/549480881__P07_2006.pdf]Board N�07 Drawings N� 253-12 to 17c - document update: 14.12.2005[/URL]
While the cage pictured for the Subaru team is homologated and itself can not be modified at least 6 of those bars were not required for it to be homologated in the first place they were chosen to be included in the homologation request. An alternative design could have been developed and submitted and still received homolgation, including one that utilized horizontal members in the main hoop. It comes down to team and builder choices in meeting the requirements to receive a successful homologation of their cage.
The part you need to reference is paragraph 8.6 in its entirety.
Also, the red car you took a picture of is a PGT car. PGT cars don't require FIA homologated cages, though one could, if one wanted to, fit one.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Your response is only accurate as far as you take it, but your failure to take it within the context of the full rule set makes your conclusion regarding my comments flawed. The implication above is that there is one and only one homologated cage design and that design is the only one available. When in fact there is no single mandated design that can not be varied from.
[quote]8.4 Homologation by an ASN
Not valid for the safety cages for Super 1600, Super 2000 and World Rally Cars that must be mandatorily homologated by the FIA according to Article 8.5.
Safety cage manufacturers may submit a safety cage of their own design to an ASN for approval.
The safety cage must comply with the following:...
8.5 FIA homologation
Any car manufacturer has the possibility of having steel safety rollcages homologated with the FIA.
The design of theses rollcages is free but:...[/quote]
There are compulsory members for homologation and there are optional members which may be utilized and receive homologation. The design for the Subaru team has both compulsory components and optional components in its homologated cage. There are other designs that have also been homologated by submission to the FIA that include other optional components. There are still other designs that can be arrived at that would also receive homologation but for the lack of being submitted.
So while its true once the cage installed is homologated it can not be deviated from - an alernate design may still be homologated.
The various alternate designs that are specifically listed in article 253 are conveniently hyperlinked here:
[URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/76161938__P06_2006.pdf]Board N�06 Drawings N� 253-1 to 11 - document update: 14.12.2005[/URL]
and
[URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/549480881__P07_2006.pdf]Board N�07 Drawings N� 253-12 to 17c - document update: 14.12.2005[/URL]
While the cage pictured for the Subaru team is homologated and itself can not be modified at least 6 of those bars were not required for it to be homologated in the first place they were chosen to be included in the homologation request. An alternative design could have been developed and submitted and still received homolgation, including one that utilized horizontal members in the main hoop. It comes down to team and builder choices in meeting the requirements to receive a successful homologation of their cage.
| akuhner | 02-07-2006 09:14 PM |
[QUOTE=javid]A bolt in is certainly 'safer' than stock. [/QUOTE]
The point that you are missing is that a cage in a modern street car is NOT safer than stock, especially if said cage is built for show rather than to the well thought out rules of a motorsports sactioning body. If you have a cage and wear a 3 point (or even those lame 4 point) seat belt you stand a good chance of cracking your head open on the cage.
I drive my rally car on the street (not daily, just a couple times a month) and I have mixed feelings about my safety. If I'm in an accident I think that the chances of the roof caving in are much less, but I assume my head will take some hard hits. I wear my 5 points 'race tight' at all times because I want to keep myself in the seat and away from the cage or airbag-less wheel. In reality, I'm probably safer in my wife's '98 Forester than in my rally car with no helmet...
Does anyone even know what kind of tubing was used? It could be paper thin wall junk for all we know from those pictures.
The point that you are missing is that a cage in a modern street car is NOT safer than stock, especially if said cage is built for show rather than to the well thought out rules of a motorsports sactioning body. If you have a cage and wear a 3 point (or even those lame 4 point) seat belt you stand a good chance of cracking your head open on the cage.
I drive my rally car on the street (not daily, just a couple times a month) and I have mixed feelings about my safety. If I'm in an accident I think that the chances of the roof caving in are much less, but I assume my head will take some hard hits. I wear my 5 points 'race tight' at all times because I want to keep myself in the seat and away from the cage or airbag-less wheel. In reality, I'm probably safer in my wife's '98 Forester than in my rally car with no helmet...
Does anyone even know what kind of tubing was used? It could be paper thin wall junk for all we know from those pictures.
| MFR Sweep | 02-07-2006 09:28 PM |
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep]Now that you stuck your head out........ did you or did you not sell [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932504&page=1]this cage?[/URL] Now we have a discussion as this cage appears to be quite dangerous even if padded and wearing a helmet.[/QUOTE]
Ok I think it is really lame to quote one's self. But on this occasion I really want to know what this vendor has for a response. :furious:
Ok I think it is really lame to quote one's self. But on this occasion I really want to know what this vendor has for a response. :furious:
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 09:54 PM |
[QUOTE=Car #187]Does anyone even know what kind of tubing was used? It could be paper thin wall junk for all we know from those pictures.[/QUOTE]
[quote]CUSCO ROLLBAR AND ROLLCAGE
[B]*40mm chrome molybdenum pipes [/B] used 33% percent lighter that a similar steel roll bar.
*Lightweight joints used Increased safety with competition roll bar layout.
*Mounted such to increase body rigidity.
Our bar layout is designed from extensive experience. Bar structures based on feedback from the track that looks good as it's effective. Designed from our extensive experience, the rigidity seen in the interior extensive piping is a feedback from our racing experience.
Japanese MOT recognized roll bar.
Price is set by roll bar type, not car type.
* Seating capacity maybe restricted on some roll bars.
* There are two types of rollbars. Please ask your local dealer for details.
* 8 point roll bar may not be fitted on some cars.
[B]*Some chrome molybdenum roll bars are not for competition .[/B][/quote]
Well the tube diameter is insufficient for the weight for both the Impreza and Lancer by most North American sanctioning bodies (and FIA as well) I know of. Most would call for 1.75" X 0.120" (FIA will allow 0.095 wall thickness) or 45mm tube diameter.
Assuming it is even 4130 alloy probably a pretty safe bet (and totally a guess) that it is not only too thin but not DOM, probably ERM. I wouldn't think it adds any safety even to the structure and could just as likely become sheared off and take some nice core samples out of you.
[quote]CUSCO ROLLBAR AND ROLLCAGE
[B]*40mm chrome molybdenum pipes [/B] used 33% percent lighter that a similar steel roll bar.
*Lightweight joints used Increased safety with competition roll bar layout.
*Mounted such to increase body rigidity.
Our bar layout is designed from extensive experience. Bar structures based on feedback from the track that looks good as it's effective. Designed from our extensive experience, the rigidity seen in the interior extensive piping is a feedback from our racing experience.
Japanese MOT recognized roll bar.
Price is set by roll bar type, not car type.
* Seating capacity maybe restricted on some roll bars.
* There are two types of rollbars. Please ask your local dealer for details.
* 8 point roll bar may not be fitted on some cars.
[B]*Some chrome molybdenum roll bars are not for competition .[/B][/quote]
Well the tube diameter is insufficient for the weight for both the Impreza and Lancer by most North American sanctioning bodies (and FIA as well) I know of. Most would call for 1.75" X 0.120" (FIA will allow 0.095 wall thickness) or 45mm tube diameter.
Assuming it is even 4130 alloy probably a pretty safe bet (and totally a guess) that it is not only too thin but not DOM, probably ERM. I wouldn't think it adds any safety even to the structure and could just as likely become sheared off and take some nice core samples out of you.
| javid | 02-07-2006 10:57 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]
The economy foam stuff has been shown in testing to not be much different from hitting the bar directly - which if you are putting padding in order to be "safer" than a bare bar is essentially unsafe.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying the cheap stuff is not much different than hitting the bar its self?
I've cracked my head open on a metal pipe before, I never done so on a padded surface, even if it's padded with the cheaper pads sold at race shops that
[QUOTE=bjorn240]has such marginal energy absorption effects as to be completely useless in a real accident.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Car #187] The point that you are missing is that a cage in a modern street car is NOT safer than stock, especially if said cage is built for show rather than to the well thought out rules of a motorsports sactioning body. If you have a cage and wear a 3 point (or even those lame 4 point) seat belt you stand a good chance of cracking your head open on the cage.[/QUOTE]
I realize that a cage in a street car is unsafe compared to stock in the case that you could hit your head on a bar. I pointed out that padding is going to reduce this risk. The Cusco may be thin, but I feel confident that it will improve the structural integrity of the car. To all that disagree, please explain why (not with quotes from racing regulators but with physics and the mechanics of materials).
In any event, I couldn�t quote the FIA to save my life so I�ll back away slowly� :) :)
Drive safe.
The economy foam stuff has been shown in testing to not be much different from hitting the bar directly - which if you are putting padding in order to be "safer" than a bare bar is essentially unsafe.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying the cheap stuff is not much different than hitting the bar its self?
I've cracked my head open on a metal pipe before, I never done so on a padded surface, even if it's padded with the cheaper pads sold at race shops that
[QUOTE=bjorn240]has such marginal energy absorption effects as to be completely useless in a real accident.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Car #187] The point that you are missing is that a cage in a modern street car is NOT safer than stock, especially if said cage is built for show rather than to the well thought out rules of a motorsports sactioning body. If you have a cage and wear a 3 point (or even those lame 4 point) seat belt you stand a good chance of cracking your head open on the cage.[/QUOTE]
I realize that a cage in a street car is unsafe compared to stock in the case that you could hit your head on a bar. I pointed out that padding is going to reduce this risk. The Cusco may be thin, but I feel confident that it will improve the structural integrity of the car. To all that disagree, please explain why (not with quotes from racing regulators but with physics and the mechanics of materials).
In any event, I couldn�t quote the FIA to save my life so I�ll back away slowly� :) :)
Drive safe.
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