| RacerMike | 02-24-2006 04:11 PM |
About 15 of those DC members regularly compete in the Pro series, just FYI. If you extend the term "local" to Philly and Susquehanna that number more than doubles. FWIW.
Mike
[QUOTE=PhilC]To put things in perspective here I count 85 WDC region entries. Hey look at that my first off the cuff guess of 40% was pretty darn close.
I hope some of those 85 do in fact go on to join the series and travel to the big events. Two years ago when Toledo Pro was our first ever Pro I think there were probably 20 people total who were first timers. In DC we're literally looking at an event where half the field is first timers as far as I can tell.[/QUOTE]
Mike
[QUOTE=PhilC]To put things in perspective here I count 85 WDC region entries. Hey look at that my first off the cuff guess of 40% was pretty darn close.
I hope some of those 85 do in fact go on to join the series and travel to the big events. Two years ago when Toledo Pro was our first ever Pro I think there were probably 20 people total who were first timers. In DC we're literally looking at an event where half the field is first timers as far as I can tell.[/QUOTE]
| PhilC | 02-24-2006 04:20 PM |
[QUOTE=RacerMike]About 15 of those DC members regularly compete in the Pro series, just FYI. If you extend the term "local" to Philly and Susquehanna that number more than doubles. FWIW.
Mike[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I was lazy and gave up trying to keep track of names I recognized from other Pros and just started counting everyone with WDC as a region. And I did notice that the neighboring regions also had a high attendance. I still think it looks like 50% plus at this event will be first timers.
Mike[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I was lazy and gave up trying to keep track of names I recognized from other Pros and just started counting everyone with WDC as a region. And I did notice that the neighboring regions also had a high attendance. I still think it looks like 50% plus at this event will be first timers.
| solo2wrx | 02-24-2006 04:33 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Could do that.. but 1st event of the year has always been free anyways.
As far as one eventers 'stealing' spots... if they're that good, they should try and do the series. It's mostly a west coast thing this year.. and that has quite a few people pissed off. And in a way.. getting beat by a one eventer is like getting blocked from somoene that already has two event wins in place later in the season. It happens.
The only problem is, you USED TO be able to go to other events to make up for that block/one eventer. This year.. can't happen unless you live somewhere out west where you have 6 prosolos to choose from. Hence additional frustration.
--kC[/QUOTE]
So basically what you serious guys want is first time Prosoloist who can only, or choose to only make one Pro a year to just scrub so you guys can run your event without the possibility of getting beat by someone who is just out there for fun. Not everyone has the time or money to travel around the country to various events, even if we would like to.
As far as one eventers 'stealing' spots... if they're that good, they should try and do the series. It's mostly a west coast thing this year.. and that has quite a few people pissed off. And in a way.. getting beat by a one eventer is like getting blocked from somoene that already has two event wins in place later in the season. It happens.
The only problem is, you USED TO be able to go to other events to make up for that block/one eventer. This year.. can't happen unless you live somewhere out west where you have 6 prosolos to choose from. Hence additional frustration.
--kC[/QUOTE]
So basically what you serious guys want is first time Prosoloist who can only, or choose to only make one Pro a year to just scrub so you guys can run your event without the possibility of getting beat by someone who is just out there for fun. Not everyone has the time or money to travel around the country to various events, even if we would like to.
| jcroy66 | 02-24-2006 04:56 PM |
No, we'd love to have new folks out. But we think priority for a SERIES COMPETITION EVENT should be given to those folks that have committed to participating in the SERIES. If there are still spots available, then anyone who does not intend to participate in the series (not just first-timers) could register. But come on. At my first Pro, I wouldn't have wanted to have had the series regulars unable to participate because all the spots were taken up by me and my fellow locals. The whole point was to run against "the best of the best".
| rautox | 02-24-2006 05:22 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]At my first Pro, I wouldn't have wanted to have had the series regulars unable to participate because all the spots were taken up by me and my fellow locals. [/quote]
Me either. OTOH, I would have expected a system and ... communal awareness to be at a level where those people wouldn't have been outside lookin' in.
[quote]The whole point was to run against "the best of the best".[/QUOTE]
I have no idea if this has changed over the last few years but:
[quote=2006ProSoloRules.pdf]
20.3 PROGRAM OBJECTIVES and STRATEGIES
A. Primary Objective
The primary objective of the ProSolo National Series is to [b]develop and
sustain[/b] a marketable and commercially viable National Solo Series using the
unique format of mirror image Solo courses with a �drag race�-type start.
B. Core Strategies
[B]1. Provide participation opportunities for multiple levels of driver/team
experience and commitment (recreational, club, pro).[/B]
2. Insure effective, efficient, and enjoyable event operations for all
participants.
3. Pursue aggressive program marketing to build awareness and
acceptance within the autocross community, the motorsports
marketplace, and the automotive industry.
[/quote]
The mothership espouses more inclusion than "the best of the best." I'm not arguing that it's right or wrong. It just is. Write those letters.
Me either. OTOH, I would have expected a system and ... communal awareness to be at a level where those people wouldn't have been outside lookin' in.
[quote]The whole point was to run against "the best of the best".[/QUOTE]
I have no idea if this has changed over the last few years but:
[quote=2006ProSoloRules.pdf]
20.3 PROGRAM OBJECTIVES and STRATEGIES
A. Primary Objective
The primary objective of the ProSolo National Series is to [b]develop and
sustain[/b] a marketable and commercially viable National Solo Series using the
unique format of mirror image Solo courses with a �drag race�-type start.
B. Core Strategies
[B]1. Provide participation opportunities for multiple levels of driver/team
experience and commitment (recreational, club, pro).[/B]
2. Insure effective, efficient, and enjoyable event operations for all
participants.
3. Pursue aggressive program marketing to build awareness and
acceptance within the autocross community, the motorsports
marketplace, and the automotive industry.
[/quote]
The mothership espouses more inclusion than "the best of the best." I'm not arguing that it's right or wrong. It just is. Write those letters.
| solo2wrx | 02-24-2006 05:53 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]No, we'd love to have new folks out. But we think priority for a SERIES COMPETITION EVENT should be given to those folks that have committed to participating in the SERIES.[/QUOTE]
I can agree with the people who are participating in the series should get priority. I just don't like that there is negative feelings towards newcomers when they come out to try Prosolo. It is not a good way to advertise or bring new people into the sport.
I can agree with the people who are participating in the series should get priority. I just don't like that there is negative feelings towards newcomers when they come out to try Prosolo. It is not a good way to advertise or bring new people into the sport.
| KC | 02-24-2006 06:07 PM |
I have said from the beginning I have no problem with new people coming into the sport. I have been trying to get many into it for years. You will find that same answer from anyone that has been doing them.
However, this event, this year, for some reason, has an unusually large number of 1st timer single eventers... registered very early on, and it's bad timing when there are not many events to go around for those that take the series more seriously than casual inquisitiveness.
This is not a one time type of event. It is a series. A novice getting into it should be encouraged to do the SERIES.. not just one event just because its local to them. (which is what I saw in the e-mail.. no description that it WAS one of a series.. just 'an event that fills up fast'.)
However, this event, this year, for some reason, has an unusually large number of 1st timer single eventers... registered very early on, and it's bad timing when there are not many events to go around for those that take the series more seriously than casual inquisitiveness.
This is not a one time type of event. It is a series. A novice getting into it should be encouraged to do the SERIES.. not just one event just because its local to them. (which is what I saw in the e-mail.. no description that it WAS one of a series.. just 'an event that fills up fast'.)
| Corey | 02-24-2006 06:10 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]All I can say is... there are some locals on that list that have serious potential to swipe some points from the 2-eventers already. If their names aren't well-known now, they will be after this event or in the not-too-distant future thereafter. :eek: [/QUOTE]
Well, go out on a limb and call out some names... might as well get to know them sooner rather than later. :D
[QUOTE=solo2wrx]I just don't like that there is negative feelings towards newcomers when they come out to try Prosolo. [/QUOTE]
I don't think ANY of the regulars have any ill feeling tward any of the first timers. I've never seen it, never felt it... it just doesn't happen. You'll find that you are expected to know what's going on by reading the rules a bit, but questions are ALWAYS answered, and people are ALWAYS friendly.
Heck, at my first PROSolo event it was our very own KC and trhoppe that walked me through the challenge rounds, explaining everything I needed to know. I made it to the simi-final round that day where none other than WDCR's own Brian Garfield took me out. :furious:
Corey #89 STS
Well, go out on a limb and call out some names... might as well get to know them sooner rather than later. :D
[QUOTE=solo2wrx]I just don't like that there is negative feelings towards newcomers when they come out to try Prosolo. [/QUOTE]
I don't think ANY of the regulars have any ill feeling tward any of the first timers. I've never seen it, never felt it... it just doesn't happen. You'll find that you are expected to know what's going on by reading the rules a bit, but questions are ALWAYS answered, and people are ALWAYS friendly.
Heck, at my first PROSolo event it was our very own KC and trhoppe that walked me through the challenge rounds, explaining everything I needed to know. I made it to the simi-final round that day where none other than WDCR's own Brian Garfield took me out. :furious:
Corey #89 STS
| KC | 02-24-2006 06:13 PM |
IIRC, that was at Petersburg.
| mccanixx | 02-24-2006 06:23 PM |
It took me 1 year just to get registered to my 1st national event. Which was last years Toledo pro and Tour. 2004 I waited to long to register and was left out, in my own backyard. Fair or unfair, that's how it was.
So I learned: watch the website, register early. I probably wouldn't have noticed registration was open, for all the events, if I hadn't renwed my membership online this year. [Napolean] Lucky [Napolean]
I do feel for those who are committed to the series, I just think they were caught out, as I would have been, by thinking registration would be open a month or so before. On the otherside I've been there. I can't do Walnut ridge. So I'm doing DC and Peru with the hopes of an invite. So yeah I would have been bummed if I didn't get in.
This could have been as simple as someone linking registration to the member area without forethought of the consequences. Or without approval. It's just a website. [I]Communication[/I], hell my job lacks that.
I about crapped my pants last year working grid, too much intensity. It's all so serious when money is on the line. I would have rather been shaggin cones. I couldn't imagine the chaos that could happen from to many people like me, working critical areas. :lol:
ahh the drama
So I learned: watch the website, register early. I probably wouldn't have noticed registration was open, for all the events, if I hadn't renwed my membership online this year. [Napolean] Lucky [Napolean]
I do feel for those who are committed to the series, I just think they were caught out, as I would have been, by thinking registration would be open a month or so before. On the otherside I've been there. I can't do Walnut ridge. So I'm doing DC and Peru with the hopes of an invite. So yeah I would have been bummed if I didn't get in.
This could have been as simple as someone linking registration to the member area without forethought of the consequences. Or without approval. It's just a website. [I]Communication[/I], hell my job lacks that.
I about crapped my pants last year working grid, too much intensity. It's all so serious when money is on the line. I would have rather been shaggin cones. I couldn't imagine the chaos that could happen from to many people like me, working critical areas. :lol:
ahh the drama
| jcroy66 | 02-24-2006 06:34 PM |
Ditto the above comments about regulars loving first-timers coming out. That was the reason for all the comments a page ago about balancing between so many first-timers giving ProSolo a try and the series regulars who need the points -- because we think it's GREAT that you guys are coming out to try it!!
I seriously, seriously hope you guys all have the same experience we did - come out to your first one to "give it a try" and have such a blast that you start driving all over the country to get your "fix"! ;)
'Sides, didn't you see my post to Justin?? First-timers buy the first round. So we want ALL of you coming out with us.... ;) And we need to know where to find the best "ice cream parlors" too... Hmmm, "ice cream".......
I seriously, seriously hope you guys all have the same experience we did - come out to your first one to "give it a try" and have such a blast that you start driving all over the country to get your "fix"! ;)
'Sides, didn't you see my post to Justin?? First-timers buy the first round. So we want ALL of you coming out with us.... ;) And we need to know where to find the best "ice cream parlors" too... Hmmm, "ice cream".......
| crystalhelix | 02-24-2006 06:54 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
'Sides, didn't you see my post to Justin?? First-timers buy the first round. So we want ALL of you coming out with us.... ;) And we need to know where to find the best "ice cream parlors" too... Hmmm, "ice cream".......[/QUOTE]
Your going to hit cones on purpose for shots aren't you? :(
;)
Justin
'Sides, didn't you see my post to Justin?? First-timers buy the first round. So we want ALL of you coming out with us.... ;) And we need to know where to find the best "ice cream parlors" too... Hmmm, "ice cream".......[/QUOTE]
Your going to hit cones on purpose for shots aren't you? :(
;)
Justin
| mccanixx | 02-24-2006 06:59 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]Your going to hit cones on purpose for shots aren't you? :( [/QUOTE]
There's shots involved? Where have I been. :D
There's shots involved? Where have I been. :D
| PhilC | 02-24-2006 09:50 PM |
Apparently sleeping Greg. One shot for each cone hit on Saturday during dinner Saturday night.
At any rate speaking as someone who WAS a newbie to Pro just two years ago I don't think you'll ever find anything but what Corey describes. Our first Pro I found out that Hoppe was an ass, Mike King was a pretty cool guy because he also thought Hoppe was an ass, and that Kiko was an amazing help to any who had any questions at all. We were very freaked out and found that we had the Merideth's spending time to talk to us personally to try to get us to the next Pro on the schedule. We ended up doing three Pros plus the finale our first year. By the end of our first year amongst the group we were offering our car and utilizing other peoples tires to maximize our chances in Topeka just from the people we met at Pros, it really is that type of group and I would offer our car in a second to dozens of the people I only see three or four weekends a year.
We're kind of upset to see some of what we're seeing with regulars getting blocked out for people who have never shown any interest in national events much less the Pro series but we still like to see newbies coming out and this is honestly nothing against the people who have registered. There's 17 in STX and I recognize 6 names which sounds like a lot of rounds of drinks from the newbies to me.
At any rate speaking as someone who WAS a newbie to Pro just two years ago I don't think you'll ever find anything but what Corey describes. Our first Pro I found out that Hoppe was an ass, Mike King was a pretty cool guy because he also thought Hoppe was an ass, and that Kiko was an amazing help to any who had any questions at all. We were very freaked out and found that we had the Merideth's spending time to talk to us personally to try to get us to the next Pro on the schedule. We ended up doing three Pros plus the finale our first year. By the end of our first year amongst the group we were offering our car and utilizing other peoples tires to maximize our chances in Topeka just from the people we met at Pros, it really is that type of group and I would offer our car in a second to dozens of the people I only see three or four weekends a year.
We're kind of upset to see some of what we're seeing with regulars getting blocked out for people who have never shown any interest in national events much less the Pro series but we still like to see newbies coming out and this is honestly nothing against the people who have registered. There's 17 in STX and I recognize 6 names which sounds like a lot of rounds of drinks from the newbies to me.
| Lt. Dan | 02-24-2006 11:39 PM |
Before you take shots at the "first timers", maybe you should come out to a REGULAR D.C. event and see just what kind of event/course WE put on...
Dan
Dan
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-25-2006 01:16 AM |
I just registered for the Pro. Late obviously but still in. Hopefully they'll bump the number of allowed entries. They need more people in STU. I don't want Neary having it easy or anything. :devil:
Maybe we should see if the Susquehanna SCCA would/could put on a Pro Solo at Hershey. Anyone who has run there know how frikkin' HUGE that lot is. You could do three National Tours there simultaniously! I think this sould be a serious consideration. They'd need the manpower help, I'm sure they'd get it.
Dave Mac
P.S. WDCR events ROCK.
Maybe we should see if the Susquehanna SCCA would/could put on a Pro Solo at Hershey. Anyone who has run there know how frikkin' HUGE that lot is. You could do three National Tours there simultaniously! I think this sould be a serious consideration. They'd need the manpower help, I'm sure they'd get it.
Dave Mac
P.S. WDCR events ROCK.
| KC | 02-25-2006 08:15 AM |
Guys... this isn't knocking your local events. This has nothing to do with a local event/region. Why? This isn't a local event. This is one event in a national series that the local region agreed to let nationals use 2 of their days and their location. Ie: its a national event that is taking place near you through the graceousness of the host reigon for giving up 2 extra dates.
Because of that, the local region is expected to help staff the event... but this does not give 1st dibs in entry to local participants.
Because of that, the local region is expected to help staff the event... but this does not give 1st dibs in entry to local participants.
| rautox | 02-25-2006 08:38 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Because of that, the local region is expected to help staff the event... but this does not give 1st dibs in entry to local participants.[/QUOTE]
Obligatory preface of unbiasednessism and capacity to comprehend and respect view points other than my own.
Why? Is there something in the rules that backs that up? Is there other documentation that does? I'm asking because I don't know. All I've seen is to the contrary. Maybe there should be. Maybe erring for fresh blood's good for the future of the series. Keep in mind neither position's defendable with any sort of certainty.
I'd ask everyone to ask themselves, is no DC pro better than the one that's scheduled? Because, if there was ever a hospitality test, this is it.
Obligatory preface of unbiasednessism and capacity to comprehend and respect view points other than my own.
Why? Is there something in the rules that backs that up? Is there other documentation that does? I'm asking because I don't know. All I've seen is to the contrary. Maybe there should be. Maybe erring for fresh blood's good for the future of the series. Keep in mind neither position's defendable with any sort of certainty.
I'd ask everyone to ask themselves, is no DC pro better than the one that's scheduled? Because, if there was ever a hospitality test, this is it.
| KC | 02-25-2006 09:22 AM |
When those dedicated to the series cannot get in, then it is no better or worse than if it never materialized in the 1st place. Then there'd be an understanding of where everone from the area must go to compete to get their minimum 2 evets in to be possibly eligible for the fanale in Sept.
When only a portion of those who are doing the series get in, (remeber, this is a points series, and you can't get points if you can't go) it is no better or no worse than if the DC Pro didn't happen. Now, you have only 'some' series competitors that can get points instead of 'most' series competitors. This effects how things in Topeka at the ProFanale are played out.
--KC
When only a portion of those who are doing the series get in, (remeber, this is a points series, and you can't get points if you can't go) it is no better or no worse than if the DC Pro didn't happen. Now, you have only 'some' series competitors that can get points instead of 'most' series competitors. This effects how things in Topeka at the ProFanale are played out.
--KC
| ChrisDP | 02-25-2006 09:32 AM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Our first Pro I found out that Hoppe was an ass, Mike King was a pretty cool guy because he also thought Hoppe was an ass[/QUOTE]
Now that right there is comedy at it's finest!
Now that right there is comedy at it's finest!
| RacerMike | 02-25-2006 09:36 AM |
I'm sure AI (Susquehanna Region Club) would help, but getting that lot when we can use it (warm weather) has been a problem.
Mike
[QUOTE=Scoobie Doogie]I just registered for the Pro. Late obviously but still in. Hopefully they'll bump the number of allowed entries. They need more people in STU. I don't want Neary having it easy or anything. :devil:
Maybe we should see if the Susquehanna SCCA would/could put on a Pro Solo at Hershey. Anyone who has run there know how frikkin' HUGE that lot is. You could do three National Tours there simultaniously! I think this sould be a serious consideration. They'd need the manpower help, I'm sure they'd get it.
Dave Mac
P.S. WDCR events ROCK.[/QUOTE]
Mike
[QUOTE=Scoobie Doogie]I just registered for the Pro. Late obviously but still in. Hopefully they'll bump the number of allowed entries. They need more people in STU. I don't want Neary having it easy or anything. :devil:
Maybe we should see if the Susquehanna SCCA would/could put on a Pro Solo at Hershey. Anyone who has run there know how frikkin' HUGE that lot is. You could do three National Tours there simultaniously! I think this sould be a serious consideration. They'd need the manpower help, I'm sure they'd get it.
Dave Mac
P.S. WDCR events ROCK.[/QUOTE]
| RacerMike | 02-25-2006 09:57 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Because of that, the local region is expected to help staff the event... but this does not give 1st dibs in entry to local participants.[/QUOTE]
Man, you [I]really[/I] need to get off this. [B]There was no 1st dibs system.[/B] The event chair emailed the regular participants of his local events to let them know the event was open for registration; no law against that. Similarly, [B][I]you[/I][/B] or anyone else, for that matter, could maintain and email your own list of people (say all the people you feel are regular series competitors) and let them know that registration for events is open. Or, wait, I know, even better, everyone could be a damn adult and be responsible for their own inaction...wow that would be novel :eek: When I knew what events I was going to I was checking the Pro Solo schedule every other day (from the beginning of January) to see if the links were active. Not because I thought the events would fill up, but because I wanted register and have it done with in case I forgot to do it and they did fill up. In my case, I found out that I could register by logging into the members' section, but had I not discovered that I still would have gotten into the DC Pro, even if I weren't on the region's list.
The fact is most, if not all of the so-called dedicated series people could have gotten into this event had they been a bit more vigilant in watching to see when resitration was available. Could the SCCA have sent out an email to the membership (do they even maintain such an email list??) letting them know? Yes, but they didn't. Does everyone have a life and better things to do than check the SCCA's website everyday? Probably, but they manage to make it to these forums everyday, so that's not such a valid excuse. I'm empathetic to those that didn't get in, but this is most definitely [B]NOT[/B] the fault of the region or any of its members. If someone who needed to get in this event didn't, they should first look at themselves before pointing fingers.
Mike
Man, you [I]really[/I] need to get off this. [B]There was no 1st dibs system.[/B] The event chair emailed the regular participants of his local events to let them know the event was open for registration; no law against that. Similarly, [B][I]you[/I][/B] or anyone else, for that matter, could maintain and email your own list of people (say all the people you feel are regular series competitors) and let them know that registration for events is open. Or, wait, I know, even better, everyone could be a damn adult and be responsible for their own inaction...wow that would be novel :eek: When I knew what events I was going to I was checking the Pro Solo schedule every other day (from the beginning of January) to see if the links were active. Not because I thought the events would fill up, but because I wanted register and have it done with in case I forgot to do it and they did fill up. In my case, I found out that I could register by logging into the members' section, but had I not discovered that I still would have gotten into the DC Pro, even if I weren't on the region's list.
The fact is most, if not all of the so-called dedicated series people could have gotten into this event had they been a bit more vigilant in watching to see when resitration was available. Could the SCCA have sent out an email to the membership (do they even maintain such an email list??) letting them know? Yes, but they didn't. Does everyone have a life and better things to do than check the SCCA's website everyday? Probably, but they manage to make it to these forums everyday, so that's not such a valid excuse. I'm empathetic to those that didn't get in, but this is most definitely [B]NOT[/B] the fault of the region or any of its members. If someone who needed to get in this event didn't, they should first look at themselves before pointing fingers.
Mike
| KC | 02-25-2006 10:30 AM |
Mike... answer me this.. were there or were there not people registered for the event before the link was available from the SCCA.com home page > Solo > ProSolo > DC Pro > OnLine Registration? Answer me that. Tell me if that was OK that SCCA HQ let that happen. That's HQs problem.
Was there or was there not an e-mail sent telling people about this 'secret way' to register before the link was available from the event page? Yes or no? Don't even bother answering. See SCCA forums for my take on it. Good for thme for finding the loophole and getting in before the rest of the other national competitors could. (Not to mention I know many people on vacation this week because it's winter vacation and schools are closed).
Again... this is a SERIES not a single event type deal like a Tour. And for the last time... I'm not going to the event. I had no plans to even go. I'm not arguing this because *I* was blocked out. I'm making a point that there were MANY PEOPLE blocked out. I'm not personally effected by this as I have said before many times. So any thoughts/arguments thinking I'm arguing because *I* cvan't get in are MISSING THE POINT.
--KC
Was there or was there not an e-mail sent telling people about this 'secret way' to register before the link was available from the event page? Yes or no? Don't even bother answering. See SCCA forums for my take on it. Good for thme for finding the loophole and getting in before the rest of the other national competitors could. (Not to mention I know many people on vacation this week because it's winter vacation and schools are closed).
Again... this is a SERIES not a single event type deal like a Tour. And for the last time... I'm not going to the event. I had no plans to even go. I'm not arguing this because *I* was blocked out. I'm making a point that there were MANY PEOPLE blocked out. I'm not personally effected by this as I have said before many times. So any thoughts/arguments thinking I'm arguing because *I* cvan't get in are MISSING THE POINT.
--KC
| SCCA Cobra | 02-25-2006 11:28 AM |
Keith, you have been advised that one could simply mail in their registration before ANY online registration system opened. But, you have chosen not to recognize this, or any facts that anyone else has tried to tell you, even other NATIONAL LEVEL competitors. I have any email from the yahoo list that you have enjoyed mis-quoting for two days now where a NATIONAL LEVEL competitor actually advise newbies to try this event(the shock...the horror!)
You Keith, and almost exclusively you, are arguing about something that does not even effect you. Why? To champion a cause for those who...where on vacation...not paying attention...missing out on a series event, that if were that important to them, they should have been watching to see when it opened like Mike did above?
Take your complaints to National(which it looks like you may have done already.) Oh, tell them that you are not competing...but have some concerns. Problem is, they will see that you are not competing and wonder why, as many others, you are arguing for all of these "problems."
My crystal ball tells me there will be more issues with East Coast PRO's for the future. Thanks Keith for all of your input. Can we stop with this now, dragging it out over multiple forums? Can you take your issues to National, where the only changes can be made?
Thanks!
You Keith, and almost exclusively you, are arguing about something that does not even effect you. Why? To champion a cause for those who...where on vacation...not paying attention...missing out on a series event, that if were that important to them, they should have been watching to see when it opened like Mike did above?
Take your complaints to National(which it looks like you may have done already.) Oh, tell them that you are not competing...but have some concerns. Problem is, they will see that you are not competing and wonder why, as many others, you are arguing for all of these "problems."
My crystal ball tells me there will be more issues with East Coast PRO's for the future. Thanks Keith for all of your input. Can we stop with this now, dragging it out over multiple forums? Can you take your issues to National, where the only changes can be made?
Thanks!
| Lt. Dan | 02-25-2006 11:52 AM |
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]Exactly. Many of them refuse to drive 60-90 minutes to Aberdeen, yet complain if they can't get into a FedEx Field event because the 40 open slots not taken by season subscribers filled within 30 seconds of the registration opening. I've seen this discussed ad nauseum on the DC solo email list whenever "new sites" are discussed.
Karen[/QUOTE]
Karen, WDCR people not registering for events at Aberdeen has NOTHING to do with being lazy... Many people have families/obilgations that make commiting to more than one autocross a month difficult. And no offense to Philly region(because I do make the occasional drive up there, and they put on a great event), but given the choice between the 1 hour drive to Fedex, and the over 2hour drive to aberdeen, I'm going to choose Fedex every time. You need to remember how big of an area the D.C. region autocrosses serve. I personally come from Manassas, and I know of people that are even farther south and west than me.
Distance from my door to aberdeen- 105 miles
Distance from my door to fedex- 54 miles
Distance from my door to hershey-140 miles
Distance from my door to summit point-54 miles
So, let's double my driving distance, and add ANOTHER major metro area that I have to drive through... hmm... 4 hours of driving in congested traffic in one day is... tiring....
Dan
Karen[/QUOTE]
Karen, WDCR people not registering for events at Aberdeen has NOTHING to do with being lazy... Many people have families/obilgations that make commiting to more than one autocross a month difficult. And no offense to Philly region(because I do make the occasional drive up there, and they put on a great event), but given the choice between the 1 hour drive to Fedex, and the over 2hour drive to aberdeen, I'm going to choose Fedex every time. You need to remember how big of an area the D.C. region autocrosses serve. I personally come from Manassas, and I know of people that are even farther south and west than me.
Distance from my door to aberdeen- 105 miles
Distance from my door to fedex- 54 miles
Distance from my door to hershey-140 miles
Distance from my door to summit point-54 miles
So, let's double my driving distance, and add ANOTHER major metro area that I have to drive through... hmm... 4 hours of driving in congested traffic in one day is... tiring....
Dan
| RacerMike | 02-25-2006 11:55 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Mike... answer me this.. were there or were there not people registered for the event before the link was available from the SCCA.com home page > Solo > ProSolo > DC Pro > OnLine Registration? Answer me that. Tell me if that was OK that SCCA HQ let that happen. That's HQs problem.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, there were, but how many of those faxed in the registration form and how many found it by logging in to the members' section? Is it wrong for people to register that way?
[QUOTE=KC]
Was there or was there not an e-mail sent telling people about this 'secret way' to register before the link was available from the event page? Yes or no? [/QUOTE]
No, there wasn't, at least not to my knowledge and not to any large mail list.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, there were, but how many of those faxed in the registration form and how many found it by logging in to the members' section? Is it wrong for people to register that way?
[QUOTE=KC]
Was there or was there not an e-mail sent telling people about this 'secret way' to register before the link was available from the event page? Yes or no? [/QUOTE]
No, there wasn't, at least not to my knowledge and not to any large mail list.
| jcroy66 | 02-25-2006 12:33 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra]Keith, you have been advised that one could simply mail in their registration before ANY online registration system opened.[/QUOTE]The fact that you keep pushing this as a "look see, it could have been done!!" option says to me you've probably never actually registered in this manner for an event with the National office. I did. Once. For my first National event, because it was getting close to the event and I was worried it might fill up. A few weeks later, they opened online registration and I wasn't listed. IIRC, it took a couple days after online registration opened before my several-week-old-mail-in-registration finally got entered. And then I spent the couple months from then until the event trying to get my information corrected, because so much of it had been entered incorrectly. As I recall, they had the wrong sponsor names, wrong class, wrong tire manufacturer, wrong region... I think that might have been "all" that was wrong.
So after that, I knew I was far better off waiting until online registration opened and then entering. It was not only far less hassle, but I was more likely to actually get registered in a timely fashion.
So stop advocating "people should have faxed/mailed in their entries!!1!1!" as a valid alternative. A number of us do not feel that it IS a valid alternative.
And no "sour grapes" from me either, as I *am* registered. I was one of the folks who found out about the backdoor method (via an SCCAForums post) and registered a few weeks ago.
But that doesn't mean that I don't still see a problem. 7 reigning class champions (Brian Garfield, the 8th, is now registered I see) have been "blocked" from attending this event. Out of a total of 24 classes. Of the remaining 17, 13 of them were west-coast attendees. That means of the east coast champions, only 4 out of 11 of them were able to register. 63% of the east coast champions cannot attend. Do you honestly consider that non-detrimental to the Series?? :confused:
So after that, I knew I was far better off waiting until online registration opened and then entering. It was not only far less hassle, but I was more likely to actually get registered in a timely fashion.
So stop advocating "people should have faxed/mailed in their entries!!1!1!" as a valid alternative. A number of us do not feel that it IS a valid alternative.
And no "sour grapes" from me either, as I *am* registered. I was one of the folks who found out about the backdoor method (via an SCCAForums post) and registered a few weeks ago.
But that doesn't mean that I don't still see a problem. 7 reigning class champions (Brian Garfield, the 8th, is now registered I see) have been "blocked" from attending this event. Out of a total of 24 classes. Of the remaining 17, 13 of them were west-coast attendees. That means of the east coast champions, only 4 out of 11 of them were able to register. 63% of the east coast champions cannot attend. Do you honestly consider that non-detrimental to the Series?? :confused:
| SCCA Cobra | 02-25-2006 01:27 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
So stop advocating "people should have faxed/mailed in their entries!!1!1!" as a valid alternative. A number of us do not feel that it IS a valid alternative.[/quote]
Reread my post again. I stated that was simply an OPTION on how it could have been done before the online system opened up. You stated you did it because it was close to the event. This case is the opposite. Dates were known in DEC.
[quote]And no "sour grapes" from me either, as I *am* registered. I was one of the folks who found out about the backdoor method (via an SCCAForums post) and registered a few weeks ago.[/quote]
Don't tell Keith that. It would go against the secret that he believes was kept from the genral public.
[quote]But that doesn't mean that I don't still see a problem. 7 reigning class champions (Brian Garfield, the 8th, is now registered I see) have been "blocked" from attending this event. Out of a total of 24 classes. Of the remaining 17, 13 of them were west-coast attendees. That means of the east coast champions, only 4 out of 11 of them were able to register. 63% of the east coast champions cannot attend. Do you honestly consider that non-detrimental to the Series?? :confused:[/QUOTE]
They had a chance to look for when it was opened...just as Mike, or Brian or whomever National competitor you want to insert who did it without knowing any secret entry as is being tossed around. But, they did not watch closely, and combine that with National opening it up without letting anyone know, compounds the issue. What is detrimental to the series is the continued abuse of the novices/newbies/first-timers that did get in. How do you know that these are not the future full time competitors? I'm pretty sure that our area has a significant amount of National level driver's as well, that had to start somewhere.
Again, if the "regulars" have committed so much(time, vacation, sponsorship, ect.) why did they not watch more closely? I think that is a valid question. And when someone says they did not know it was open, point the finger at who opened the event, not who filled it.
So stop advocating "people should have faxed/mailed in their entries!!1!1!" as a valid alternative. A number of us do not feel that it IS a valid alternative.[/quote]
Reread my post again. I stated that was simply an OPTION on how it could have been done before the online system opened up. You stated you did it because it was close to the event. This case is the opposite. Dates were known in DEC.
[quote]And no "sour grapes" from me either, as I *am* registered. I was one of the folks who found out about the backdoor method (via an SCCAForums post) and registered a few weeks ago.[/quote]
Don't tell Keith that. It would go against the secret that he believes was kept from the genral public.
[quote]But that doesn't mean that I don't still see a problem. 7 reigning class champions (Brian Garfield, the 8th, is now registered I see) have been "blocked" from attending this event. Out of a total of 24 classes. Of the remaining 17, 13 of them were west-coast attendees. That means of the east coast champions, only 4 out of 11 of them were able to register. 63% of the east coast champions cannot attend. Do you honestly consider that non-detrimental to the Series?? :confused:[/QUOTE]
They had a chance to look for when it was opened...just as Mike, or Brian or whomever National competitor you want to insert who did it without knowing any secret entry as is being tossed around. But, they did not watch closely, and combine that with National opening it up without letting anyone know, compounds the issue. What is detrimental to the series is the continued abuse of the novices/newbies/first-timers that did get in. How do you know that these are not the future full time competitors? I'm pretty sure that our area has a significant amount of National level driver's as well, that had to start somewhere.
Again, if the "regulars" have committed so much(time, vacation, sponsorship, ect.) why did they not watch more closely? I think that is a valid question. And when someone says they did not know it was open, point the finger at who opened the event, not who filled it.
| KC | 02-25-2006 02:17 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra]And when someone says they did not know it was open, point the finger at who opened the event, not who filled it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=KC]were there or were there not people registered for the event before the link was available from the SCCA.com home page > Solo > ProSolo > DC Pro > OnLine Registration? Answer me that. Tell me if that was OK that SCCA HQ let that happen. That's HQs problem.[/QUOTE]
Yep..
[QUOTE=KC]were there or were there not people registered for the event before the link was available from the SCCA.com home page > Solo > ProSolo > DC Pro > OnLine Registration? Answer me that. Tell me if that was OK that SCCA HQ let that happen. That's HQs problem.[/QUOTE]
Yep..
| jcroy66 | 02-25-2006 02:25 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra]What is detrimental to the series is the continued abuse of the novices/newbies/first-timers that did get in.[/QUOTE]I think you're seeing something that isn't there. We have stated time and again that we LOVE having new people show up. The only "abuse" that I see being laid for this event is:
1) KC blaming the National office for allowing back-door pre-entries to stand.
2) Various people blaming the National office for not notifying people when registration was available.
3) KC noting (and it seems a valid observation to me) that the WDCR "management" now seems to be trying to finangle in their one-eventer folks (note: NOT necessarily the same as a "newbie") who did not register in time, using means that are not available to the general public (i.e. "you'll have to have an important position, what did you want to do again?").
NONE of that "abuse" is aimed at novices. Not a bit of it.
1) KC blaming the National office for allowing back-door pre-entries to stand.
2) Various people blaming the National office for not notifying people when registration was available.
3) KC noting (and it seems a valid observation to me) that the WDCR "management" now seems to be trying to finangle in their one-eventer folks (note: NOT necessarily the same as a "newbie") who did not register in time, using means that are not available to the general public (i.e. "you'll have to have an important position, what did you want to do again?").
NONE of that "abuse" is aimed at novices. Not a bit of it.
| Zoinks | 02-25-2006 02:30 PM |
Out of curiousity, can you ProSolo series regulars explains how the normal signup process works for these events? How do you normally know when registration opens up? Did this event open up early or without some standard announcement?
| CamaroFS34 | 02-25-2006 02:37 PM |
Josh, did you register on here just to troll? Seriously?
The fact is, those in this area know how the local -- non-National competing -- autocrossers are when it comes to registering for events at FedEx Field. I do believe "rabid" would be an appropriate term. I didn't know about the backdoor method of registering online, though I knew that you could mail in an entry at any time (in fact, suggested that to one particular Subaru driver last year who wanted to make sure he got the number he wanted for Nationals, since it was the number usually used by someone else in the class). However, when Craig sends out an email -- [i]not[/i] on the DC list, but via his own private list of area autocrossers -- I knew that he'd just "winched" the event registration into overdrive, and I registered then. I also let some other friends of mine know, and their response was, "It's four months away." When I explained [i]why[/i] they needed to register [i]then[/i], they did it, though complained about "tying up the money" for four months, but by the end of that day, they were happy they'd made the 200 cutoff.
Sam Strano didn't wait, but didn't go through online registration. He faxed his entry, and he was initially waitlisted.
Was there a conspiracy to fill up the event with people who aren't series committed? I don't think so, and I know Keith doesn't think so. The question -- because series committed people were blocked out of registration -- is whether or not the regular, points accruing ProSolo competitors should have priority when registering.
It is a difficult question, as has been shown in this thread, in the SCCAForums thread, etc. You need to have a local region presence to cover your coreworker positions, and to cover the Challenge worker positions. It is the [i]region[/i] who is [i]supposed[/i] to provide the workers for the Challenge, so it appears that we'll have [i]no[/i] shortage of Challenge workers at DC. ;) OTOH, it is the points-accruing ProSolo competitors who support the series, and if they can't register for one event, they may not register for others, and that hurts the series as a whole. Lastly, how are people who've never done a ProSolo supposed to experience it if they never attend one?
There is no easy answer. Coming here into this thread to misread and misinterpret what people are saying doesn't help the feeling from those outside the area that something "funny" happened with registration. And saying that Keith misquoted things from the yahoo group in the SCCAForums thread doesn't help either, when anyone can go to the yahoo group and read those messages for themselves (the lesson [i]there[/i] being that those in a position of authority ought to be much more careful about what they say in a public forum when it can be "miscontrued." I, for one, was appalled by the message from Craig that suggested faxing an entry and saying that you were a coreworker that got locked out... and it wasn't clear if he was kidding).
This isn't about the quality of local DC events, it isn't about the ability of local DC autocrossers, it is about how making sure that those who [i]are[/i] dedicated to the series as a whole are supported as much as they support the program. Saying that they "should have checked the website" isn't good enough. Not everyone has the same internet capability and not everyone trusts online registration security (and so faxes/emails entry forms). The entry for events should have a definite beginning/end time. DC region manages that much for their local events, so why can't National?
Karen
The fact is, those in this area know how the local -- non-National competing -- autocrossers are when it comes to registering for events at FedEx Field. I do believe "rabid" would be an appropriate term. I didn't know about the backdoor method of registering online, though I knew that you could mail in an entry at any time (in fact, suggested that to one particular Subaru driver last year who wanted to make sure he got the number he wanted for Nationals, since it was the number usually used by someone else in the class). However, when Craig sends out an email -- [i]not[/i] on the DC list, but via his own private list of area autocrossers -- I knew that he'd just "winched" the event registration into overdrive, and I registered then. I also let some other friends of mine know, and their response was, "It's four months away." When I explained [i]why[/i] they needed to register [i]then[/i], they did it, though complained about "tying up the money" for four months, but by the end of that day, they were happy they'd made the 200 cutoff.
Sam Strano didn't wait, but didn't go through online registration. He faxed his entry, and he was initially waitlisted.
Was there a conspiracy to fill up the event with people who aren't series committed? I don't think so, and I know Keith doesn't think so. The question -- because series committed people were blocked out of registration -- is whether or not the regular, points accruing ProSolo competitors should have priority when registering.
It is a difficult question, as has been shown in this thread, in the SCCAForums thread, etc. You need to have a local region presence to cover your coreworker positions, and to cover the Challenge worker positions. It is the [i]region[/i] who is [i]supposed[/i] to provide the workers for the Challenge, so it appears that we'll have [i]no[/i] shortage of Challenge workers at DC. ;) OTOH, it is the points-accruing ProSolo competitors who support the series, and if they can't register for one event, they may not register for others, and that hurts the series as a whole. Lastly, how are people who've never done a ProSolo supposed to experience it if they never attend one?
There is no easy answer. Coming here into this thread to misread and misinterpret what people are saying doesn't help the feeling from those outside the area that something "funny" happened with registration. And saying that Keith misquoted things from the yahoo group in the SCCAForums thread doesn't help either, when anyone can go to the yahoo group and read those messages for themselves (the lesson [i]there[/i] being that those in a position of authority ought to be much more careful about what they say in a public forum when it can be "miscontrued." I, for one, was appalled by the message from Craig that suggested faxing an entry and saying that you were a coreworker that got locked out... and it wasn't clear if he was kidding).
This isn't about the quality of local DC events, it isn't about the ability of local DC autocrossers, it is about how making sure that those who [i]are[/i] dedicated to the series as a whole are supported as much as they support the program. Saying that they "should have checked the website" isn't good enough. Not everyone has the same internet capability and not everyone trusts online registration security (and so faxes/emails entry forms). The entry for events should have a definite beginning/end time. DC region manages that much for their local events, so why can't National?
Karen
| CamaroFS34 | 02-25-2006 02:39 PM |
[QUOTE=Zoinks]Out of curiousity, can you ProSolo series regulars explains how the normal signup process works for these events? How do you normally know when registration opens up? Did this event open up early or without some standard announcement?[/QUOTE]
You don't normally know, that is the problem. This event didn't necessarily open early, but it did open without a [i]standard[/i] announcement to [i]all[/i] possible competitors. That's where the problem occurred.
Karen
You don't normally know, that is the problem. This event didn't necessarily open early, but it did open without a [i]standard[/i] announcement to [i]all[/i] possible competitors. That's where the problem occurred.
Karen
| SCCA Cobra | 02-25-2006 03:15 PM |
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]Josh, did you register on here just to troll? Seriously?
Karen[/QUOTE]
Yup, Karen you know me...the old troller. ;)
Karen, you know I see alot of people complaining, and not doing anything about it except taking it to a public forum and pointing fingers. We were told how people loved the DC events when they were put on. We were even accused of being selfish when we did not do the events last year. We decided to do this event this year because we wanted to serve the members. Now, that we have served the members, we are being told we are not serving the "right" members. You of all people, having put on events yourself, know that we are puts us in an awkward position.
Craig explained his comments, right or wrong. This whole backdooor thing needs to stop. If that was the case, I would be in myself...but I am on the waitlist as are many others. Also, do you think that if an announcement were made to all members before the event opened that it would be alot different than it is now as far as who signed up? Do you, knowing how our members are in the DC region, think that they would not sign up as quickly as the did now? It was inevitable with the one true east coast PRO. And THAT is the issue. If people put in this much effort into looking, obtaining, and puting on more east coasts events, maybe we could grow this back into what we had in the 80's.
Karen, I agree it sucks that the "dedicated" people did not get in. Again, I am mearly saying don't blame the region for this. And now, after two days, and two forums worth of mudslinging, it seems to be sinking in.
Karen[/QUOTE]
Yup, Karen you know me...the old troller. ;)
Karen, you know I see alot of people complaining, and not doing anything about it except taking it to a public forum and pointing fingers. We were told how people loved the DC events when they were put on. We were even accused of being selfish when we did not do the events last year. We decided to do this event this year because we wanted to serve the members. Now, that we have served the members, we are being told we are not serving the "right" members. You of all people, having put on events yourself, know that we are puts us in an awkward position.
Craig explained his comments, right or wrong. This whole backdooor thing needs to stop. If that was the case, I would be in myself...but I am on the waitlist as are many others. Also, do you think that if an announcement were made to all members before the event opened that it would be alot different than it is now as far as who signed up? Do you, knowing how our members are in the DC region, think that they would not sign up as quickly as the did now? It was inevitable with the one true east coast PRO. And THAT is the issue. If people put in this much effort into looking, obtaining, and puting on more east coasts events, maybe we could grow this back into what we had in the 80's.
Karen, I agree it sucks that the "dedicated" people did not get in. Again, I am mearly saying don't blame the region for this. And now, after two days, and two forums worth of mudslinging, it seems to be sinking in.
| jcroy66 | 02-25-2006 03:49 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra]If people put in this much effort into looking, obtaining, and puting on more east coasts events, maybe we could grow this back into what we had in the 80's.[/QUOTE]Don't presume to know what effort others put forth. :rolleyes:
| sstrano | 02-25-2006 03:51 PM |
Nobody is blaming the region that I see. And I'm *GLAD* folks want to come run Pro's. I only wish they'd run more than the one. :)
The registration was opened too early IMHO. It wasn't told to me, or anyone else I can think of. Someone found a backdoor online. Regulars should get some time, even just a week to enter before hand. Locals become regulars (none of use started running Pro's straight-away), so we certainly aren't out to tell them no you can't run....
On the other hand. The dates are published, anyone inclinded to go probably knew it. I'm really curious as to why the need arose to advertise it so hard, so early. Craig did nothing wrong, but I think it created un-needed panic, which led to this mess.
SCCA is working on keeping their series regulars happy AND trying to accomodate all who want to come. So arguing about it is useless.
In the end, I think this only hurt the non-regulars who didn't get in, and weren't aware of the problem. SCCA knows they need the series competitors for the series to work, so some how I'm sure most of us will get in. However, how do you pick the non series participants that get in? They are already more than full, so I'm guess anyone not already in might not get in.
Registering 4 MONTHS ahead of time is stupid. There is NO REASON that I should have to pay for/remember to register 120 days ahead of time. And unless some rational is shown, it'll only get worse. And FWIW, then the folks just coming in are the ones screwed. They don't know the details those of us do. And if they can't get in because everyone is greedy, then they won't come back. Is that any better?
The registration was opened too early IMHO. It wasn't told to me, or anyone else I can think of. Someone found a backdoor online. Regulars should get some time, even just a week to enter before hand. Locals become regulars (none of use started running Pro's straight-away), so we certainly aren't out to tell them no you can't run....
On the other hand. The dates are published, anyone inclinded to go probably knew it. I'm really curious as to why the need arose to advertise it so hard, so early. Craig did nothing wrong, but I think it created un-needed panic, which led to this mess.
SCCA is working on keeping their series regulars happy AND trying to accomodate all who want to come. So arguing about it is useless.
In the end, I think this only hurt the non-regulars who didn't get in, and weren't aware of the problem. SCCA knows they need the series competitors for the series to work, so some how I'm sure most of us will get in. However, how do you pick the non series participants that get in? They are already more than full, so I'm guess anyone not already in might not get in.
Registering 4 MONTHS ahead of time is stupid. There is NO REASON that I should have to pay for/remember to register 120 days ahead of time. And unless some rational is shown, it'll only get worse. And FWIW, then the folks just coming in are the ones screwed. They don't know the details those of us do. And if they can't get in because everyone is greedy, then they won't come back. Is that any better?
| sstrano | 02-25-2006 03:55 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra] If people put in this much effort into looking, obtaining, and puting on more east coasts events, maybe we could grow this back into what we had in the 80's.
[/QUOTE]
That statement is totally off-base. Have you tried procuring sites? I know it's a huge problem. Insurance, costs, useable lots, etc. Hell, we have a hard time finding sites that will handle a decent local event. DC region has a good thing going on, and I'm glad. But you are making a huge mistake in thinking everyone has it so good. What would happen should we lose FedEx???
Josh, I have no problem with you, never have. But that's not the wisest comment I've heard come out of your mouth... especially considering I haven't seen you run anywhere else I can recall besides DC events. I don't even see you @ AI events often.
[/QUOTE]
That statement is totally off-base. Have you tried procuring sites? I know it's a huge problem. Insurance, costs, useable lots, etc. Hell, we have a hard time finding sites that will handle a decent local event. DC region has a good thing going on, and I'm glad. But you are making a huge mistake in thinking everyone has it so good. What would happen should we lose FedEx???
Josh, I have no problem with you, never have. But that's not the wisest comment I've heard come out of your mouth... especially considering I haven't seen you run anywhere else I can recall besides DC events. I don't even see you @ AI events often.
| SCCA Cobra | 02-25-2006 04:05 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]Don't presume to know what effort others put forth. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Would like to provide any factual information to back up that statement? Do you know what effort is being put forth to put this event on? Have you ever put on a local event, a Divisional, National Tour event, or ProSolo event?
I'm doubting not, because if you HAD, you would understand the position we are in as a region. We have a great site and are very proud of the quality of the events we put on. We are trying to support National level events, yet some seem to think that it is our job to do so.
Sam,
You are right. I'm just a little pissed at all of the mudslinging in our direction. It was a jab, and I should have said it. My bad. And as far as me running other events, I can't seem to keep from wrecking my car!!! It is sitting in my driveway (again) with the front in need of much repair. When I do get it all together, I will play with all of the other ESP'ers, and at the National level events including Topeka. Oh, and we would love to see you at more of our DC events...only two last year beside the divisional as I remember. ;)
Would like to provide any factual information to back up that statement? Do you know what effort is being put forth to put this event on? Have you ever put on a local event, a Divisional, National Tour event, or ProSolo event?
I'm doubting not, because if you HAD, you would understand the position we are in as a region. We have a great site and are very proud of the quality of the events we put on. We are trying to support National level events, yet some seem to think that it is our job to do so.
Sam,
You are right. I'm just a little pissed at all of the mudslinging in our direction. It was a jab, and I should have said it. My bad. And as far as me running other events, I can't seem to keep from wrecking my car!!! It is sitting in my driveway (again) with the front in need of much repair. When I do get it all together, I will play with all of the other ESP'ers, and at the National level events including Topeka. Oh, and we would love to see you at more of our DC events...only two last year beside the divisional as I remember. ;)
| jcroy66 | 02-25-2006 04:12 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra]I see alot of people complaining, and not doing anything about it except taking it to a public forum and pointing fingers.[/QUOTE]What else would you EXPECT to see individuals do in a [b]public [/b]manner except posts on a public forum?? It's already been stated that several of us have made private suggestions to SCCA on ways to salvage this situation. Indeed I (and I'm sure others) have offered to help, in such ways that I/we can. Just because you see posts on a public forum doesn't mean that's the only thing that's happening!
| SCCA Cobra | 02-25-2006 04:27 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]What else would you EXPECT to see individuals do in a [b]public [/b]manner except posts on a public forum?? It's already been stated that several of us have made private suggestions to SCCA on ways to salvage this situation. Indeed I (and I'm sure others) have offered to help, in such ways that I/we can. Just because you see posts on a public forum doesn't mean that's the only thing that's happening![/QUOTE]
Well, than I thank you for efforts on trying to help out and help our members. Just remember, that we are all in this together, trying to work for the good of the whole, not the one or the few.
Well, than I thank you for efforts on trying to help out and help our members. Just remember, that we are all in this together, trying to work for the good of the whole, not the one or the few.
| RacerMike | 02-25-2006 04:33 PM |
[QUOTE=sstrano]
Registering 4 MONTHS ahead of time is stupid. There is NO REASON that I should have to pay for/remember to register 120 days ahead of time. [/QUOTE]
Sam, I'm going to disagree with you here. There IS a reason and that reason is the lack of events available to us, especially on the east coast. Last year when I heard there were going to be limited events I decided what events I wanted to go to and signed up for them via fax in January. This was the only way I could ensure that I'd get in. Was I over reacting? Probably, but I wasn't in the situation that a lot regulars are in regarding the DC Pro. I did the same thing this year (Walnut Ridge, Peru, DC) only electronically. The limited number of events within reasonable driving range for me personally, necessitates registering way early, sometimes more than 4 months out.
Mike
Registering 4 MONTHS ahead of time is stupid. There is NO REASON that I should have to pay for/remember to register 120 days ahead of time. [/QUOTE]
Sam, I'm going to disagree with you here. There IS a reason and that reason is the lack of events available to us, especially on the east coast. Last year when I heard there were going to be limited events I decided what events I wanted to go to and signed up for them via fax in January. This was the only way I could ensure that I'd get in. Was I over reacting? Probably, but I wasn't in the situation that a lot regulars are in regarding the DC Pro. I did the same thing this year (Walnut Ridge, Peru, DC) only electronically. The limited number of events within reasonable driving range for me personally, necessitates registering way early, sometimes more than 4 months out.
Mike
| adhowe70 | 02-25-2006 04:36 PM |
I remember a ProFinale back in '03 (I think) where so many people registered early they created a wait list. As I recall, so many people bailed at the last minute, the event wasn't even full when the time came.
I expect to see the same here.
I expect to see the same here.
| jcroy66 | 02-25-2006 04:38 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra]Would like to provide any factual information to back up that statement? Do you know what effort is being put forth to put this event on? Have you ever put on a local event, a Divisional, National Tour event, or ProSolo event?
I'm doubting not, because if you HAD, you would understand the position we are in as a region. [/QUOTE]*Deep breaths* *Deep breaths* :mad:
I think I'm now done talking to you. I've never even met you; I have made no negative assumptions about what effort you or others have put forth for this or any event. And yet you have now made public insults and presumptions about what I've done for this sport. Wow, that's balls. :p
I'm doubting not, because if you HAD, you would understand the position we are in as a region. [/QUOTE]*Deep breaths* *Deep breaths* :mad:
I think I'm now done talking to you. I've never even met you; I have made no negative assumptions about what effort you or others have put forth for this or any event. And yet you have now made public insults and presumptions about what I've done for this sport. Wow, that's balls. :p
| jcroy66 | 02-25-2006 04:43 PM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70]I remember a ProFinale back in '03 (I think) where so many people registered early they created a wait list. As I recall, so many people bailed at the last minute, the event wasn't even full when the time came.[/QUOTE]In the '03 Finale case, I'm told (it was "before my time") that a number of people saw they were blocked from the event, and therefore saw no point in competing in the season at all, since there was no shot at the ProFinale. Unfortunately, I think there's the potential to have THAT happen in this case as well. :furious:
| adhowe70 | 02-25-2006 05:15 PM |
Yup. Well, sort of... the ProFinale debacle happened mid-season. People had already committed resources to the season, so there was some incentive to stick with it. However:
People that were well down the wait list skipped late year Pros and ran the Warmup instead of the Pro. Then people that registered in the frenzy on the chance that they'd actually run the event bailed around September 1st because they couldn't really attend.
Event cap: 225
Actual attendance: 190 or so
People that were well down the wait list skipped late year Pros and ran the Warmup instead of the Pro. Then people that registered in the frenzy on the chance that they'd actually run the event bailed around September 1st because they couldn't really attend.
Event cap: 225
Actual attendance: 190 or so
| PhilC | 02-25-2006 05:59 PM |
[QUOTE=SCCA Cobra]Would like to provide any factual information to back up that statement? Do you know what effort is being put forth to put this event on? Have you ever put on a local event, a Divisional, National Tour event, or ProSolo event?[/QUOTE]
Since I think Jen will be kind enough to not answer this one I will for her. Jen and I were autocross chairs for a local club for two years so got to experience the whole gammut of putting on events INCLUDING losing our event sites which is something WDCR hasn't had to experience the way other regions have. We remain active with at least 4 different regions including NW-Ohio which didn't take their toys and go home the way WDCR did last year and put on both a Pro and Tour. We're both Solo Safety Stewards (the most thankless job in our sport) and Jen last year volunteered to be chief of safety for the Peru Tour which doesn't have a hosting region. That's right she volunteered to put forth the considerable extra time and effort to be a chief of event for an event that is 5 hours away from us each way.
Now I'm not saying any of that to sound high and mighty or anything else. Just to give you an idea of the type of people who don't know you at all who you've now joined a forum specifically to insult. We're typical for most Pro series competitors not the exception. I think you'll find that nearly every single person who competes in the Pro series on a regular basis can throw up a similar resume if not one orders of magnitude more impressive.
Since I think Jen will be kind enough to not answer this one I will for her. Jen and I were autocross chairs for a local club for two years so got to experience the whole gammut of putting on events INCLUDING losing our event sites which is something WDCR hasn't had to experience the way other regions have. We remain active with at least 4 different regions including NW-Ohio which didn't take their toys and go home the way WDCR did last year and put on both a Pro and Tour. We're both Solo Safety Stewards (the most thankless job in our sport) and Jen last year volunteered to be chief of safety for the Peru Tour which doesn't have a hosting region. That's right she volunteered to put forth the considerable extra time and effort to be a chief of event for an event that is 5 hours away from us each way.
Now I'm not saying any of that to sound high and mighty or anything else. Just to give you an idea of the type of people who don't know you at all who you've now joined a forum specifically to insult. We're typical for most Pro series competitors not the exception. I think you'll find that nearly every single person who competes in the Pro series on a regular basis can throw up a similar resume if not one orders of magnitude more impressive.
| CamaroFS34 | 02-25-2006 06:39 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]...We remain active with at least 4 different regions including NW-Ohio which didn't take their toys and go home the way WDCR did last year and put on both a Pro and Tour...[/QUOTE]
Careful, careful there, Phil. I know I'm not the staunchest DC Region supporter, but there is a [i]lot[/i] more to that story than you know. And it relates to why there isn't a Pro or Tour in Atlanta this year.
Karen
Careful, careful there, Phil. I know I'm not the staunchest DC Region supporter, but there is a [i]lot[/i] more to that story than you know. And it relates to why there isn't a Pro or Tour in Atlanta this year.
Karen
| cooleyjb | 02-25-2006 06:43 PM |
I've been on the fence about posting to this for a while.
But after the holier than thou approach of the SOME but not all regular ProSolo drivers I have very little desire to go to a ProSolo.
The attitude that has come across in the previous posts is abysmal. I have raced with a few of you at national tours and have dealt with you in the forums but I'm disappointed.
I know that many of you are not meaning to come across like this but give me a break. This is not the forum to complain about the issues with the national office. This is the subaru forum which has a fair number of grassroots autocrossers. The ProSolo is a First come first serve event. I'm sorry if you didn't make it on the list of participants but right now all of you are coming off as people I'd rather not race with. Yes your intent is not to harrass the newcomers or the one-time Prosolo racers but you are doing one heck of a job of making them feel guilty or just scaring them away from ever trying the event.
Your complaining would be better served with a single simple post about what you thought and then numerous conversations with the SCCA national office.
But after the holier than thou approach of the SOME but not all regular ProSolo drivers I have very little desire to go to a ProSolo.
The attitude that has come across in the previous posts is abysmal. I have raced with a few of you at national tours and have dealt with you in the forums but I'm disappointed.
I know that many of you are not meaning to come across like this but give me a break. This is not the forum to complain about the issues with the national office. This is the subaru forum which has a fair number of grassroots autocrossers. The ProSolo is a First come first serve event. I'm sorry if you didn't make it on the list of participants but right now all of you are coming off as people I'd rather not race with. Yes your intent is not to harrass the newcomers or the one-time Prosolo racers but you are doing one heck of a job of making them feel guilty or just scaring them away from ever trying the event.
Your complaining would be better served with a single simple post about what you thought and then numerous conversations with the SCCA national office.
| SCCA Cobra | 02-25-2006 08:21 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Since I think Jen will be kind enough to not answer this one I will for her. Jen and I were autocross chairs for a local club for two years so got to experience the whole gammut of putting on events INCLUDING losing our event sites which is something WDCR hasn't had to experience the way other regions have. We remain active with at least 4 different regions including NW-Ohio which didn't take their toys and go home the way WDCR did last year and put on both a Pro and Tour. We're both Solo Safety Stewards (the most thankless job in our sport) and Jen last year volunteered to be chief of safety for the Peru Tour which doesn't have a hosting region. That's right she volunteered to put forth the considerable extra time and effort to be a chief of event for an event that is 5 hours away from us each way.[/quote]
Well, I am a Safety Steward as well, and will be going through the process of being an instructor this year as well. While I haven't been active in as many regions as you have been, I am very active and passionate about the WDCR. I think we have alot more in common than we all knew.
[Quote]Now I'm not saying any of that to sound high and mighty or anything else. Just to give you an idea of the type of people who don't know you at all who you've now joined a forum specifically to insult. We're typical for most Pro series competitors not the exception. I think you'll find that nearly every single person who competes in the Pro series on a regular basis can throw up a similar resume if not one orders of magnitude more impressive.[/QUOTE]
Well, I was tired of Keith going on and on about it. Keith has been called out by many National level competitors as well, just not me. I will not sit by and watch people trash a region that has so many committee members that put so much into it. Would you not do the same for any region that your were a part of? Just so you know, we were racing in very, very small parking lot in Frederick, MD when I moved to this area. (Sam has raced there and knows what I am talking about.) We are very happy that we have been able to secure FedEX Field. But, it was through alot of very hard work from Craig(and family) and his predecessor Ernie Manzella. I feel like I have known both of their families forever, and I have only been in the region for 4 years. I was mearly sticking up for my "extended" family. Again, would you not do the same? Being a Safety Steward is not the only thankless job out there (oh, did I mention that almost our ENTIRE committee is trained as a Safety Steward) but so is being on a committee that has the problem of trying to please everyone, at all levels, both local and NAtional. It just simply can not be done.
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]Careful, careful there, Phil. I know I'm not the staunchest DC Region supporter, but there is a [i]lot[/i] more to that story than you know. And it relates to why there isn't a Pro or Tour in Atlanta this year.
Karen[/QUOTE]
*Deep Breaths* *Deep Breathes* :mad:
Thank you Karen for understanding this as well.
This where I understand about not calling someone out when you do not know the whole story. It is very hard to understand intent in the written form, and can so easily be misconstrued. Oh, and I have raced in the ATL region and they put on some great events. I bought my very first set of R-compounds after my first event with that region from a local competitor. :)
Well, I am a Safety Steward as well, and will be going through the process of being an instructor this year as well. While I haven't been active in as many regions as you have been, I am very active and passionate about the WDCR. I think we have alot more in common than we all knew.
[Quote]Now I'm not saying any of that to sound high and mighty or anything else. Just to give you an idea of the type of people who don't know you at all who you've now joined a forum specifically to insult. We're typical for most Pro series competitors not the exception. I think you'll find that nearly every single person who competes in the Pro series on a regular basis can throw up a similar resume if not one orders of magnitude more impressive.[/QUOTE]
Well, I was tired of Keith going on and on about it. Keith has been called out by many National level competitors as well, just not me. I will not sit by and watch people trash a region that has so many committee members that put so much into it. Would you not do the same for any region that your were a part of? Just so you know, we were racing in very, very small parking lot in Frederick, MD when I moved to this area. (Sam has raced there and knows what I am talking about.) We are very happy that we have been able to secure FedEX Field. But, it was through alot of very hard work from Craig(and family) and his predecessor Ernie Manzella. I feel like I have known both of their families forever, and I have only been in the region for 4 years. I was mearly sticking up for my "extended" family. Again, would you not do the same? Being a Safety Steward is not the only thankless job out there (oh, did I mention that almost our ENTIRE committee is trained as a Safety Steward) but so is being on a committee that has the problem of trying to please everyone, at all levels, both local and NAtional. It just simply can not be done.
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]Careful, careful there, Phil. I know I'm not the staunchest DC Region supporter, but there is a [i]lot[/i] more to that story than you know. And it relates to why there isn't a Pro or Tour in Atlanta this year.
Karen[/QUOTE]
*Deep Breaths* *Deep Breathes* :mad:
Thank you Karen for understanding this as well.
This where I understand about not calling someone out when you do not know the whole story. It is very hard to understand intent in the written form, and can so easily be misconstrued. Oh, and I have raced in the ATL region and they put on some great events. I bought my very first set of R-compounds after my first event with that region from a local competitor. :)
| KC | 02-25-2006 08:51 PM |
You know what? You wanted me to drop it... yet who is it that keeps bringing it up, bringing me up, constantly defending *their* position.... and bringing me back into it?
Go back and read my posts... and get off your horses back that seems to be in the stratosphere.
Something something pot something kettle.
--kC
Go back and read my posts... and get off your horses back that seems to be in the stratosphere.
Something something pot something kettle.
--kC
| SCCA Cobra | 02-25-2006 09:00 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]You know what? You wanted me to drop it... yet who is it that keeps bringing it up bringing me up, constantly defending *their* position.... and bringing me back into it?
Something something pot something kettle.
--kC[/QUOTE]
Nice. I really thought this was dying down. I was trying to "fix" things with the others on this board that I had offended. Hoping it would explain [paul havey voice] The rest of the story. [voice off]
Keith, I don't know you. I'll meet the others in DC and they can make their opinions of me finalized then. If you know Karen, ask her about me. Or Mike..or Sam. This is way out of character for me. But, I feel very strongly about my region. And will defend it.
I apoligize to the other members of this board. I did only join to defend my region and its members. I will now unsubscribe and not post here ever again.
Good night...
Something something pot something kettle.
--kC[/QUOTE]
Nice. I really thought this was dying down. I was trying to "fix" things with the others on this board that I had offended. Hoping it would explain [paul havey voice] The rest of the story. [voice off]
Keith, I don't know you. I'll meet the others in DC and they can make their opinions of me finalized then. If you know Karen, ask her about me. Or Mike..or Sam. This is way out of character for me. But, I feel very strongly about my region. And will defend it.
I apoligize to the other members of this board. I did only join to defend my region and its members. I will now unsubscribe and not post here ever again.
Good night...
| KC | 02-25-2006 09:03 PM |
Look... I get it. OK? Same with me. Those you mentioned know me too. I 'go off' on forums. It's a place that we can speak our mind, sometimes egos get bruised when things are said and carried out to the Nth degree. I've been here since '99... but am still a youngun' when it comes to auto-x only having been doing this for 9 years or so.
Just as you have a love for your region (as I do for mine) I also have another family in the ProSolo SERIES. Thats where some of the opions differ and the egos turn into bruised tomotoes. I feel strongly for it as it should be the pinnicle of Solo. To have members of regions, some higher up, just say 'too bad'... hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from.
I don't know you, you don't know me. But I'm sure we're both very amicable people. (As are the Garfields et al) Let's have a beer at Nats. :) I'll buy. (And not the free stuff)
And if you want to take out/vent your frustrations in a more creative manner... find your nearest dartboard, open up your March issue of SportsCar magazine to pages 24 and 25. Pin it to the dartboard and start throwing.
--kC
Just as you have a love for your region (as I do for mine) I also have another family in the ProSolo SERIES. Thats where some of the opions differ and the egos turn into bruised tomotoes. I feel strongly for it as it should be the pinnicle of Solo. To have members of regions, some higher up, just say 'too bad'... hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from.
I don't know you, you don't know me. But I'm sure we're both very amicable people. (As are the Garfields et al) Let's have a beer at Nats. :) I'll buy. (And not the free stuff)
And if you want to take out/vent your frustrations in a more creative manner... find your nearest dartboard, open up your March issue of SportsCar magazine to pages 24 and 25. Pin it to the dartboard and start throwing.
--kC
| RacerMike | 02-25-2006 09:29 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Look... I get it. OK? Same with me. Those you mentioned know me too. I 'go off' on forums. It's a place that we can speak our mind
[/QUOTE]
KC, the original e-thug :p
[SHAMELESS PLUG]
[QUOTE=KC]
And if you want to take out/vent your frustrations in a more creative manner... find your nearest dartboard, open up your March issue of SportsCar magazine to pages 24 and 25. Pin it to the dartboard and start throwing.
--kC[/QUOTE]
[/SHAMELESS PLUG]
Mike
[/QUOTE]
KC, the original e-thug :p
[SHAMELESS PLUG]
[QUOTE=KC]
And if you want to take out/vent your frustrations in a more creative manner... find your nearest dartboard, open up your March issue of SportsCar magazine to pages 24 and 25. Pin it to the dartboard and start throwing.
--kC[/QUOTE]
[/SHAMELESS PLUG]
Mike
| Scooby South | 02-25-2006 09:35 PM |
OK>>>ENOUGH ...Bickering...It you can't play nice....don't play at all...
Now .......KNOCK IT OFF...Personal ATTACKS will NOT be tolerated...
otherwise...this thread is DONE...understand...
Bill
Now .......KNOCK IT OFF...Personal ATTACKS will NOT be tolerated...
otherwise...this thread is DONE...understand...
Bill
| crystalhelix | 02-25-2006 11:08 PM |
Wow, I went snowboarding came back had to read for 30 minutes to catch up. All I can say is I hope everything works out in the end.
Justin
PS - phil and jen, there was a picture of the croymobile on SCCA.com's main page. I took a screen cap if it changes..
Justin
PS - phil and jen, there was a picture of the croymobile on SCCA.com's main page. I took a screen cap if it changes..
| CamaroFS34 | 02-26-2006 04:26 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South]otherwise...this thread is DONE...understand...[/QUOTE]
Yes, oh powerful moderator.....
Are you registered? Can I drive your car?
:lol:
Karen
Yes, oh powerful moderator.....
Are you registered? Can I drive your car?
:lol:
Karen
| jcroy66 | 02-26-2006 07:23 AM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]All I can say is... there are some locals on that list that have serious potential to swipe some points from the 2-eventers already. If their names aren't well-known now, they will be after this event or in the not-too-distant future thereafter. :eek:[/QUOTE]Excellent. More people to beat the pants off me. :o Chris, I hope you realize that I already fully expected a number of those rookies to beat up on me. I would not be at all surprised (disappointed certainly, but not surprised) if I'm DFL this season. Anything better than that at any event and it'll be a "victory".
| jcroy66 | 02-26-2006 07:25 AM |
Justin, thanks! Yeah, Keith gave us the FYI Friday night. So we turned around and let Brett at SoloRacer know. Too bad you can't really make out the "SoloRacer.com". :( If you already know what the Sherwin-Williams logo looks like, you can make that one out, but it kinda requires "knowing" what it looks like upfront. :lol:
P.S. Where do you go for snowboarding? Maybe we should get together a NASIOC Motorsports winter meet for those of us up here in "can't race the car yet" land. Phil and I both snowboard. So does Jason. Pretty sure Billy either skis and/or snowboards. I'd imagine there are others too.
P.S. Where do you go for snowboarding? Maybe we should get together a NASIOC Motorsports winter meet for those of us up here in "can't race the car yet" land. Phil and I both snowboard. So does Jason. Pretty sure Billy either skis and/or snowboards. I'd imagine there are others too.
| PhilC | 02-26-2006 07:49 AM |
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]Careful, careful there, Phil. I know I'm not the staunchest DC Region supporter, but there is a [i]lot[/i] more to that story than you know. And it relates to why there isn't a Pro or Tour in Atlanta this year.
Karen[/QUOTE]
I apologize for that comment in whole. I don't know what went on with Nationals and the WDCR last year that prevented a National event and should not have said it. I have heard a lot about what went on with Atlanta and can understand the issues involved.
Karen[/QUOTE]
I apologize for that comment in whole. I don't know what went on with Nationals and the WDCR last year that prevented a National event and should not have said it. I have heard a lot about what went on with Atlanta and can understand the issues involved.
| trhoppe | 02-26-2006 08:55 AM |
Who is this SCCA Cobra douchebag? What is your name?
-Tom
-Tom
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