| Ferg | 02-06-2005 11:27 AM |
F1, 2005 Style...now with 100% more Season Preview! (pg3)
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Here's a great little read from AtlasF1.com contemplating all the new rules for this year...
[QUOTE]Formula One 2005-style will be a totally different animal to what was before. That is the loud message coming through very clearly from the teams after the first four launches of the year.
Although pitstops will still feature, most technical directors believe their number will reduce by an average of one per race. "There will still be pitstops," said Toyota's Technical Director Mike Gascoyne, "and you still need to qualify with a load of fuel, but you will most likely see one less stop per race. The balance between qualifying weight and race performance will remain crucial, but, without the opportunity of changing to fresher rubber, there is less need to stop frequently."
So, a typical two-stopper circuit should now see just see a single refuel halt; a three-stop strategy in 2004 could mutate to just two replenishments this year. Of greater significance, though, is the loss of what Sir Frank Williams calls the "fine choreography" around the car.
"You won't see the fine choreography, of 19 people changing tyres anymore, and that is a real loss," said the 63-year old on Monday. "You'll still see stops, of course, but they could be a bit of an anti-climax with just four or five people attending solely to the task of refuelling."
The Williams team boss also believes, too, that the new-look Formula One will present more overtaking opportunities than hitherto, surprisingly singling out reduced engine revs (due to the double Grand Prix engine distance requirement) rather than reduced aerodynamics as the root cause. Theoretically lower drag co-efficients should increase top speeds due to lower drag co-efficients, but Sir Frank believes "the straights will appear longer, thus providing more overtaking opportunities under braking".
But will revs, and hence speeds, really be reduced significantly? Dr Mario Theissen, BMW Motorsport Director, believes revs will not necessarily be lower; rather that teams will be more selective with shift points. "I believe that we will see the same maximum revs, certainly on our engine, just that you won't see them as often," he said. He refused to be drawn on the question of power loss, but seemed confident that BMW's engine would be the benchmark engine in 2005.
Durability during Grand Prix weekends can be achieved via two routes, particularly during free practice sessions, explained the good doctor. "That can be achieved in different ways: driving fewer laps or reducing engines speeds. We don't want to drive less because that cuts down on valuable set-up time, particularly as we want to cut down on test drives (between races).
"Curtailing maximum engine speed is the preferred option. You don't need peak revs for set-up work and tyre selection," he explained before pointing out that the same set of tyres will be required to last through qualifying and the race.
Williams Technical Director Sam Michael expects the latter aspect to most change the face of races. The Australian pointed out that drivers would need to drive sensitively to conserve rubber, but a bigger factor would be the state of play immediately after pitstops. "In the past," said the 33-year old, "it would be impossible to get past a heavier car immediately after a pitstop, because it had a fresh rubber advantage. So, even if the car behind was lighter (faster), overtaking was out of the question due to the grip factor of the new tyres.
"This year, though, their tyres will be roughly the same, but the heavier car will have an even greater disadvantage as its tyres would have cooled down during the pitstop."
Patrick Head, Engineering Director of the Anglo-German team, believes the tyre regulations will require vigorous policing. "The way I understand it is that a tyre may be changed in the event of a puncture, or if it wears down to the canvas (for safety reasons, and then only for one with the same or greater wear), but such changes may not take place during scheduled fuel stops. A team wishing to change a punctured or worn tyre will have to do so outside of a scheduled stop. This will impose some sort of penalty.
"But," he continued, "I believe (Race Director/Safety Delegate) Charlie (Whiting) will take a close interest in any team regularly changing tyres at half distance, and, if it continues without good reason, some sort of sanction will be imposed."
New aerodynamic limitations, estimated at reducing downforce by 30% via front wing endplates raised by 50 millimeters, rear wings longer by 150mm, reduced diffuser heights and narrower floors, should see laptimes increase by approximately three seconds on average. Will spectators actually notice these increases?
Overall consensus is that the speed reductions will not be generally evident and even less so for television viewers, all of which is good news. Even better news is that the spectacle should increase, and drivers � Sauber's Jacques Villeneuve, in particular � have commented upon the increased twitchiness of 2005-style cars.
The 33-year old French-Canadian, who took a sabbatical last year before returning to contest the final three Grands Prix for Renault, believes this season will be more about "strategy than a string of flat-out laps". Good drivers, he said, will consider the effects of their driving styles on engine and tyre wear whilst maintaining maximum racing speeds. "We're going to have to connect speed with intelligence," added the 1997 World Champion, "so drivers' responsibility will increase."
The requirement for increased responsibility will be most acute between 13.00 and 14.00 on Saturday, when drivers will slam in an empty tank "pre-qualifier" in order to determine run order for Sunday's (10.00 to 11.00) fuelled definitive qualifying lap. BMW points out that Saturday's pre-qualifying constitutes half the battle despite not counting for grid position: the grid will be determined by the combined times of both Saturday's and Sunday's flying laps.
Complicated to say the least, and here's hoping that the technology will be in place to properly educate 350 million television viewers, who may not be fully up to speed with the new regulations. After all, somehow they need to be informed that Driver A, who just creamed fastest time by 0.20 seconds, will start from tenth because he was forced to conserve his engine 20 hours ago? Seems like TV commentators will really start earning their keep come Sunday morning in Melbourne. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Formula One 2005-style will be a totally different animal to what was before. That is the loud message coming through very clearly from the teams after the first four launches of the year.
Although pitstops will still feature, most technical directors believe their number will reduce by an average of one per race. "There will still be pitstops," said Toyota's Technical Director Mike Gascoyne, "and you still need to qualify with a load of fuel, but you will most likely see one less stop per race. The balance between qualifying weight and race performance will remain crucial, but, without the opportunity of changing to fresher rubber, there is less need to stop frequently."
So, a typical two-stopper circuit should now see just see a single refuel halt; a three-stop strategy in 2004 could mutate to just two replenishments this year. Of greater significance, though, is the loss of what Sir Frank Williams calls the "fine choreography" around the car.
"You won't see the fine choreography, of 19 people changing tyres anymore, and that is a real loss," said the 63-year old on Monday. "You'll still see stops, of course, but they could be a bit of an anti-climax with just four or five people attending solely to the task of refuelling."
The Williams team boss also believes, too, that the new-look Formula One will present more overtaking opportunities than hitherto, surprisingly singling out reduced engine revs (due to the double Grand Prix engine distance requirement) rather than reduced aerodynamics as the root cause. Theoretically lower drag co-efficients should increase top speeds due to lower drag co-efficients, but Sir Frank believes "the straights will appear longer, thus providing more overtaking opportunities under braking".
But will revs, and hence speeds, really be reduced significantly? Dr Mario Theissen, BMW Motorsport Director, believes revs will not necessarily be lower; rather that teams will be more selective with shift points. "I believe that we will see the same maximum revs, certainly on our engine, just that you won't see them as often," he said. He refused to be drawn on the question of power loss, but seemed confident that BMW's engine would be the benchmark engine in 2005.
Durability during Grand Prix weekends can be achieved via two routes, particularly during free practice sessions, explained the good doctor. "That can be achieved in different ways: driving fewer laps or reducing engines speeds. We don't want to drive less because that cuts down on valuable set-up time, particularly as we want to cut down on test drives (between races).
"Curtailing maximum engine speed is the preferred option. You don't need peak revs for set-up work and tyre selection," he explained before pointing out that the same set of tyres will be required to last through qualifying and the race.
Williams Technical Director Sam Michael expects the latter aspect to most change the face of races. The Australian pointed out that drivers would need to drive sensitively to conserve rubber, but a bigger factor would be the state of play immediately after pitstops. "In the past," said the 33-year old, "it would be impossible to get past a heavier car immediately after a pitstop, because it had a fresh rubber advantage. So, even if the car behind was lighter (faster), overtaking was out of the question due to the grip factor of the new tyres.
"This year, though, their tyres will be roughly the same, but the heavier car will have an even greater disadvantage as its tyres would have cooled down during the pitstop."
Patrick Head, Engineering Director of the Anglo-German team, believes the tyre regulations will require vigorous policing. "The way I understand it is that a tyre may be changed in the event of a puncture, or if it wears down to the canvas (for safety reasons, and then only for one with the same or greater wear), but such changes may not take place during scheduled fuel stops. A team wishing to change a punctured or worn tyre will have to do so outside of a scheduled stop. This will impose some sort of penalty.
"But," he continued, "I believe (Race Director/Safety Delegate) Charlie (Whiting) will take a close interest in any team regularly changing tyres at half distance, and, if it continues without good reason, some sort of sanction will be imposed."
New aerodynamic limitations, estimated at reducing downforce by 30% via front wing endplates raised by 50 millimeters, rear wings longer by 150mm, reduced diffuser heights and narrower floors, should see laptimes increase by approximately three seconds on average. Will spectators actually notice these increases?
Overall consensus is that the speed reductions will not be generally evident and even less so for television viewers, all of which is good news. Even better news is that the spectacle should increase, and drivers � Sauber's Jacques Villeneuve, in particular � have commented upon the increased twitchiness of 2005-style cars.
The 33-year old French-Canadian, who took a sabbatical last year before returning to contest the final three Grands Prix for Renault, believes this season will be more about "strategy than a string of flat-out laps". Good drivers, he said, will consider the effects of their driving styles on engine and tyre wear whilst maintaining maximum racing speeds. "We're going to have to connect speed with intelligence," added the 1997 World Champion, "so drivers' responsibility will increase."
The requirement for increased responsibility will be most acute between 13.00 and 14.00 on Saturday, when drivers will slam in an empty tank "pre-qualifier" in order to determine run order for Sunday's (10.00 to 11.00) fuelled definitive qualifying lap. BMW points out that Saturday's pre-qualifying constitutes half the battle despite not counting for grid position: the grid will be determined by the combined times of both Saturday's and Sunday's flying laps.
Complicated to say the least, and here's hoping that the technology will be in place to properly educate 350 million television viewers, who may not be fully up to speed with the new regulations. After all, somehow they need to be informed that Driver A, who just creamed fastest time by 0.20 seconds, will start from tenth because he was forced to conserve his engine 20 hours ago? Seems like TV commentators will really start earning their keep come Sunday morning in Melbourne. [/QUOTE]
| criscross79 | 02-06-2005 05:08 PM |
I found this on Formula1.com, it basically says the same thing though.
FIA Rules & Regulations Sporting Regulations
2005 season changes
Rules & Regulations - 2004 season changes Rules & Regulations - 2004 season changes
A number of changes to both the Sporting and Technical Regulations have been made by the FIA for the 2005 Formula One season.
Qualifying
The 2005 race weekend will feature one qualifying session on Saturday afternoon and another on Sunday morning.
The first session will run from 1300 to 1400 on Saturday and will, as in 2004, be single lap qualifying, with the cars going out in the reverse order of their finishing positions at the previous race.
The second session, from 1000 to 1100 on Sunday, will also use the single lap format, with the cars going out in the reverse order of the qualifying on Saturday (i.e. the fastest car on Saturday runs last on Sunday).
The cars will run on Saturday with unrestricted fuel. They will then go into parc ferme after this qualifying session and for the Sunday qualifying session they will run with race fuel, having been allowed to refuel before the second qualifying session. They will not be allowed to refuel again before the race starts.
The times of the two sessions will be aggregated to determine the grid, with the shortest aggregate time in pole position.
Tyres
Drivers will have access to far fewer tyres in 2005 and will have to make a single set last through both qualifying sessions and the entire race. A tyre can only be changed during this time if it is punctured or damaged.
On Fridays, drivers will be able to test two different dry tyre compounds. Ahead of Saturday practice they must choose one of these for the remainder of the weekend. They will then be allocated three sets of this compound � one will be used in practice, one in qualifying and the race, and one kept in reserve in case of punctures or accident damage.
These changes will require harder compounds than in 2004 and will force drivers to drive with tyre preservation in mind. The knock-on effects will be slower lap times and much-revised race strategies.
Drivers will also have access to wet and extreme-weather tyres. These can only be used when the track is declared wet by the race director.
Engines
In 2004 engines had to last one race weekend. From 2005 they must last two � equivalent to a distance of around 1,500 kilometres (close to 1000 miles). If a driver requires an engine change ahead of qualifying, he will drop ten places on the grid for that race. If an engine is changed between the start of qualifying and the race the driver will be put to the back of the grid.
In both instances the driver concerned must use his new engine for the remainder of that meeting and the entire following grand prix weekend. If a driver fails to finish a race, he may start the next meeting with a new engine without penalty.
With even greater reliability required from the engines, these changes are likely to cut rev limits and power outputs, hence reducing car performance.
Aerodynamics
Aerodynamic regulations have been dramatically revised in a bid to reduce downforce and hence cut performance. The key changes are a higher nose and front wing section, a changed rear diffuser profile, and the bringing forward of the rear wing structure.
Initial estimates suggest that the changes could cut downforce by as much as 25 percent over 2004. Designers are likely to claw much of this back as their 2005 machines evolve, but slower laps times and trickier-handling cars would seem inevitable.
FIA Rules & Regulations Sporting Regulations
2005 season changes
Rules & Regulations - 2004 season changes Rules & Regulations - 2004 season changes
A number of changes to both the Sporting and Technical Regulations have been made by the FIA for the 2005 Formula One season.
Qualifying
The 2005 race weekend will feature one qualifying session on Saturday afternoon and another on Sunday morning.
The first session will run from 1300 to 1400 on Saturday and will, as in 2004, be single lap qualifying, with the cars going out in the reverse order of their finishing positions at the previous race.
The second session, from 1000 to 1100 on Sunday, will also use the single lap format, with the cars going out in the reverse order of the qualifying on Saturday (i.e. the fastest car on Saturday runs last on Sunday).
The cars will run on Saturday with unrestricted fuel. They will then go into parc ferme after this qualifying session and for the Sunday qualifying session they will run with race fuel, having been allowed to refuel before the second qualifying session. They will not be allowed to refuel again before the race starts.
The times of the two sessions will be aggregated to determine the grid, with the shortest aggregate time in pole position.
Tyres
Drivers will have access to far fewer tyres in 2005 and will have to make a single set last through both qualifying sessions and the entire race. A tyre can only be changed during this time if it is punctured or damaged.
On Fridays, drivers will be able to test two different dry tyre compounds. Ahead of Saturday practice they must choose one of these for the remainder of the weekend. They will then be allocated three sets of this compound � one will be used in practice, one in qualifying and the race, and one kept in reserve in case of punctures or accident damage.
These changes will require harder compounds than in 2004 and will force drivers to drive with tyre preservation in mind. The knock-on effects will be slower lap times and much-revised race strategies.
Drivers will also have access to wet and extreme-weather tyres. These can only be used when the track is declared wet by the race director.
Engines
In 2004 engines had to last one race weekend. From 2005 they must last two � equivalent to a distance of around 1,500 kilometres (close to 1000 miles). If a driver requires an engine change ahead of qualifying, he will drop ten places on the grid for that race. If an engine is changed between the start of qualifying and the race the driver will be put to the back of the grid.
In both instances the driver concerned must use his new engine for the remainder of that meeting and the entire following grand prix weekend. If a driver fails to finish a race, he may start the next meeting with a new engine without penalty.
With even greater reliability required from the engines, these changes are likely to cut rev limits and power outputs, hence reducing car performance.
Aerodynamics
Aerodynamic regulations have been dramatically revised in a bid to reduce downforce and hence cut performance. The key changes are a higher nose and front wing section, a changed rear diffuser profile, and the bringing forward of the rear wing structure.
Initial estimates suggest that the changes could cut downforce by as much as 25 percent over 2004. Designers are likely to claw much of this back as their 2005 machines evolve, but slower laps times and trickier-handling cars would seem inevitable.
| artkevin | 02-07-2005 09:32 AM |
Thanks guys, that answers all of the questions that I had that can be answeered before the cars take to the track.
| Alpha_32 | 02-07-2005 11:32 AM |
arn't they makeing the engines v8's now instead of v10s?
| artkevin | 02-07-2005 11:50 AM |
[QUOTE=Alpha_32]arn't they makeing the engines v8's now instead of v10s?[/QUOTE]
In '06. I think they are supposed to be 2.6 or 2.8 liters. They want to reduce the revs too. Not a fan of that.
In '06. I think they are supposed to be 2.6 or 2.8 liters. They want to reduce the revs too. Not a fan of that.
| bemani | 02-07-2005 02:58 PM |
[QUOTE=criscross79]Engines
If a driver fails to finish a race, he may start the next meeting with a new engine without penalty.
[/QUOTE]
I wonder if people will just crash if they don't score just so they can put in a fresh engine for the next race ...
If a driver fails to finish a race, he may start the next meeting with a new engine without penalty.
[/QUOTE]
I wonder if people will just crash if they don't score just so they can put in a fresh engine for the next race ...
| polaris | 02-07-2005 03:08 PM |
Im sure there will be regulations on that. Faking a failure is more likely than putting the car into the sand on purpose to get a new engine for the next race I think.
| johnei | 02-07-2005 03:20 PM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]In '06. I think they are supposed to be 2.6 or 2.8 liters. They want to reduce the revs too. Not a fan of that.[/QUOTE]
Actually I think it will be even smaller at about 2.4L.
Actually I think it will be even smaller at about 2.4L.
| Ferg | 02-07-2005 04:42 PM |
[QUOTE=johnei]Actually I think it will be even smaller at about 2.4L.[/QUOTE]
Spot on.
From the FIA website:
[QUOTE]Engines
The introduction of a 2.4 litre V8 engine together with a number of restrictions concerning design and permitted materials.
Reason: reducing capacity is a sure way to reduce power (as repeatedly requested by the TWG), while technical restrictions will limit the rate of power increase. It is estimated that power will drop to about 700 bhp compared to the 1000 bhp that existing engines will reach by 2006.
In order not to prejudice the smaller independent teams the existing 3.0 litre V10 engines may continue to be used in 2006 and 2007, subject to a restriction on revs to be determined by the FIA
Reason: having reduced engine power, we need an inexpensive but competitive engine for the smaller independent teams, including newcomers. A rev-limited 3 litre can be adjusted to be competitive with factory 2.4 litre units, but will be far less costly.[/QUOTE]
Spot on.
From the FIA website:
[QUOTE]Engines
The introduction of a 2.4 litre V8 engine together with a number of restrictions concerning design and permitted materials.
Reason: reducing capacity is a sure way to reduce power (as repeatedly requested by the TWG), while technical restrictions will limit the rate of power increase. It is estimated that power will drop to about 700 bhp compared to the 1000 bhp that existing engines will reach by 2006.
In order not to prejudice the smaller independent teams the existing 3.0 litre V10 engines may continue to be used in 2006 and 2007, subject to a restriction on revs to be determined by the FIA
Reason: having reduced engine power, we need an inexpensive but competitive engine for the smaller independent teams, including newcomers. A rev-limited 3 litre can be adjusted to be competitive with factory 2.4 litre units, but will be far less costly.[/QUOTE]
| srf | 02-07-2005 05:40 PM |
Maybe we'll only see the points finishers actually finish races this year. Everyone else stops just before the start line. ;)
| artkevin | 02-07-2005 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]Spot on.
From the FIA website:[/QUOTE]
I don't understand how that will cut cost. It seems like they teams will all be scrambling to get 800 bhp sooner then the next guy and then 900 and then 1000. Wasn't the V-10 introduced to reduce cost of turbos?
From the FIA website:[/QUOTE]
I don't understand how that will cut cost. It seems like they teams will all be scrambling to get 800 bhp sooner then the next guy and then 900 and then 1000. Wasn't the V-10 introduced to reduce cost of turbos?
| polaris | 02-07-2005 06:50 PM |
The smaller engines arent being brought in to reduce cost, but to reduce speeds. This will increase costs in the short term as the engines are developed.
smaller teams can use the old V10 in a crippled state to save money while the bigger teams develop the V8 engines.
In the hay-days of CART the 2.5L V8 engines they used put out 900 horsepower....
smaller teams can use the old V10 in a crippled state to save money while the bigger teams develop the V8 engines.
In the hay-days of CART the 2.5L V8 engines they used put out 900 horsepower....
| Phrint | 02-07-2005 07:09 PM |
Wow. Looks like F1 will eventually be an open-wheeled NASCAR. So many restrictions. It's going to dull down the sport. I have heard that they are also mandating a change back to manual shifted trannies instead of the paddle-shifters.
| Ferg | 02-07-2005 08:11 PM |
[QUOTE=polaris]In the hay-days of CART the 2.5L V8 engines they used put out 900 horsepower....[/QUOTE]
Yeah but remember those were turbocharged and ran on methanol. Sounded amazing in person though :eek:
Yeah but remember those were turbocharged and ran on methanol. Sounded amazing in person though :eek:
| artkevin | 02-07-2005 10:39 PM |
How many of these radical changes woulod be in place if Ferrari had not "dominated" over the past few years? I say "dominated" becuase '03 was actually a really good season. I can't help but feel that these changes are at least in some way a backdoor way of getting a different color on the top step more often. I may not sound like it but i am actually a Williams fan.
| polaris | 02-08-2005 12:52 AM |
Lately its come out/been rumored Ferrari had heavy influence on rule changes, and thus tailored them to their advantage. I read up on an F1 board I look at during the seasons in resonse to this thread, and some of the news is very disapointing. Ferrari renewing the contract with FIA by breaking ranks with the other teams, etc...
F1 will have to earn my attention back. I dont see myself watching the start of the season right now.
F1 will have to earn my attention back. I dont see myself watching the start of the season right now.
| Dussander | 02-08-2005 01:03 PM |
Ack! The MP4:20 has horns!
| artkevin | 02-08-2005 02:15 PM |
[QUOTE=Dussander]Ack! The MP4:20 has horns![/QUOTE]
The MP4:20 is just saying "ROCK ON!" :devil:
[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/39477.jpg[/IMG]
The MP4:20 is just saying "ROCK ON!" :devil:
[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/39477.jpg[/IMG]
| finnRex | 02-08-2005 02:34 PM |
If the MP4:20 is half as reliable as it is beautiful, I'm lookin' forward to a good season. If they can just make the motors last....
Mika(go Kimi;) )
Mika(go Kimi;) )
| gtguy | 02-08-2005 02:51 PM |
[QUOTE=polaris]Lately its come out/been rumored Ferrari had heavy influence on rule changes, and thus tailored them to their advantage. I read up on an F1 board I look at during the seasons in resonse to this thread, and some of the news is very disapointing. Ferrari renewing the contract with FIA by breaking ranks with the other teams, etc...
F1 will have to earn my attention back. I dont see myself watching the start of the season right now.[/QUOTE]
Don't treat nattering from the UK-based, Ferrari-hating press as gospel. That's a dangerous thing. Cost-cutting, something that Ferrari is actually not all that interested in, is at the core of the rules changes. Also at the core of the rules changes is the "show," which can be translated into "let's try anything to slow Ferrari down."
Ferrari does have an advantage because they are one of the few teams with its own complete car designed and built in-house, rather than someone's engine, someone else's gearbox, etc, etc. This gives them a competitive advantage as regards car evolutions, as does owning their own test track.
But the GPWC brouhaha is again, instigated by the UK press to make Ferrari evil. Nobody cared what Ferrari was doing when Alesi and Berger were suffering through bad handling cars and 10-second pit stops. Now that Todt/Brawn/Schumacher have made them into winners, they're cheaters, and evil. Sorry, but reality doesn't support this contention. Teams have salad days, and bad days. Williams, Benetton and McLaren have all had their times in the sun. This season, it might well be some other team. But man, I wish the Ferrari hating would cease.
Yes, they used leverage to broker a better deal with the FIA. Duh. Any other team would, too, if they could. It says something about Ferrari's value that everyone is so freaked out about it, too. They know that, in reality, like what used to be Indy Car, they can't co-exist without the other. The GPWC is a joke without Ferrari, just as Formula One as it stands today is tarnished with Ferrari and a few "other," probably Ecclestone-financed teams.
Thankfully, neither reality will come to pass. The teams will realize that a bit less of something is better than a whole lot of nothing.
As for not watching the start of the season, you're on your own for that one. For me, this is one of the most exciting seasons on record, because of the uncertainty. A tire-saving technician can do well this year, even with an inferior car. All the teams are going to have to re-learn how to race, and the new McLaren seems to be very fast (note: So did its predecessor, which was setting all kinds of records in pre-season testing, but still...). The Renault is easy on tires, the new Sauber has moved away from the Ferrari mother ship, will Jordan actually having money help them become better, will BAR continue trending upward, and there's always Williams, and the perpetual hope that Toyota will get it all worked out.
The new tire rules have completely changed the racing equation, particularly for a driver such as M. Schumacher, who likes to set the car up at the limit, then use talent to get 'round the track. And what about the "scruff of the neck" drivers such as Montoya and Raikkonen, who haven't exactly been known as tire conservators. :D And then there's the engine life rule, which will, of necessity, change the way the drivers work the car. It has to. And more than ever this year, driver and car will have to be a package. No more 10-lap sprints, tires be damned. They will have to balance speed and tire conservation, making the winner, in most cases, the best package of pure driver and car. The cars should be trickier at the limits, to boot, which means more overcooked corner passes, etc.
Take all these things, and you're talking mucho uncertainty, and a legitimate new start for the non-Ferrari contenders: Williams, McLaren, BAR, Renault, even Toyota and potentially, Sauber.
Add to the top of the pile the fact that Ferrari is bringing out a hybrid car, hoping to simply hang on until the F2005 comes out, four races into the season, and you have major, major excitement.
I am so looking forward to it all. :banana: :banana:
Kevin
F1 will have to earn my attention back. I dont see myself watching the start of the season right now.[/QUOTE]
Don't treat nattering from the UK-based, Ferrari-hating press as gospel. That's a dangerous thing. Cost-cutting, something that Ferrari is actually not all that interested in, is at the core of the rules changes. Also at the core of the rules changes is the "show," which can be translated into "let's try anything to slow Ferrari down."
Ferrari does have an advantage because they are one of the few teams with its own complete car designed and built in-house, rather than someone's engine, someone else's gearbox, etc, etc. This gives them a competitive advantage as regards car evolutions, as does owning their own test track.
But the GPWC brouhaha is again, instigated by the UK press to make Ferrari evil. Nobody cared what Ferrari was doing when Alesi and Berger were suffering through bad handling cars and 10-second pit stops. Now that Todt/Brawn/Schumacher have made them into winners, they're cheaters, and evil. Sorry, but reality doesn't support this contention. Teams have salad days, and bad days. Williams, Benetton and McLaren have all had their times in the sun. This season, it might well be some other team. But man, I wish the Ferrari hating would cease.
Yes, they used leverage to broker a better deal with the FIA. Duh. Any other team would, too, if they could. It says something about Ferrari's value that everyone is so freaked out about it, too. They know that, in reality, like what used to be Indy Car, they can't co-exist without the other. The GPWC is a joke without Ferrari, just as Formula One as it stands today is tarnished with Ferrari and a few "other," probably Ecclestone-financed teams.
Thankfully, neither reality will come to pass. The teams will realize that a bit less of something is better than a whole lot of nothing.
As for not watching the start of the season, you're on your own for that one. For me, this is one of the most exciting seasons on record, because of the uncertainty. A tire-saving technician can do well this year, even with an inferior car. All the teams are going to have to re-learn how to race, and the new McLaren seems to be very fast (note: So did its predecessor, which was setting all kinds of records in pre-season testing, but still...). The Renault is easy on tires, the new Sauber has moved away from the Ferrari mother ship, will Jordan actually having money help them become better, will BAR continue trending upward, and there's always Williams, and the perpetual hope that Toyota will get it all worked out.
The new tire rules have completely changed the racing equation, particularly for a driver such as M. Schumacher, who likes to set the car up at the limit, then use talent to get 'round the track. And what about the "scruff of the neck" drivers such as Montoya and Raikkonen, who haven't exactly been known as tire conservators. :D And then there's the engine life rule, which will, of necessity, change the way the drivers work the car. It has to. And more than ever this year, driver and car will have to be a package. No more 10-lap sprints, tires be damned. They will have to balance speed and tire conservation, making the winner, in most cases, the best package of pure driver and car. The cars should be trickier at the limits, to boot, which means more overcooked corner passes, etc.
Take all these things, and you're talking mucho uncertainty, and a legitimate new start for the non-Ferrari contenders: Williams, McLaren, BAR, Renault, even Toyota and potentially, Sauber.
Add to the top of the pile the fact that Ferrari is bringing out a hybrid car, hoping to simply hang on until the F2005 comes out, four races into the season, and you have major, major excitement.
I am so looking forward to it all. :banana: :banana:
Kevin
| Dussander | 02-08-2005 03:10 PM |
One of Michael's abilities that has helped him many times in the past, is to put in a couple of really fast laps before a pit stop. With less pit stops this year, AND not being able to drop on new tires in the pit stop, it would seem this ability will not be as helpful this season.
| BriDrive | 02-08-2005 03:52 PM |
[QUOTE=gtguy]
I am so looking forward to it all. :banana: :banana:
Kevin[/QUOTE]
INDEED..............
BriDrive
I am so looking forward to it all. :banana: :banana:
Kevin[/QUOTE]
INDEED..............
BriDrive
| johnfelstead | 02-08-2005 04:27 PM |
You must be reading diferent British Motorsport press to me Kevin. :D
| BriDrive | 02-08-2005 04:40 PM |
That's kind of weak......care to ellaborate.
My perception of the British view of Scuderia Ferrari is less than "positive".
BTW...finally saw and enjoyed the video........
BriDrive
My perception of the British view of Scuderia Ferrari is less than "positive".
BTW...finally saw and enjoyed the video........
BriDrive
| Kwyjibo | 02-08-2005 04:52 PM |
Well, Ferrari must be looking to cut costs if they want to sell Maseratti back to Fiat...and the whole Fiat/GM fiasco is interesting as well (although not F1 related).
Ferarri will probably dominate again...with an amazing 2.4L powerplant.
You need to have losers, becasue they determine the winner :D
Ferarri will probably dominate again...with an amazing 2.4L powerplant.
You need to have losers, becasue they determine the winner :D
| gtguy | 02-08-2005 05:08 PM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]That's kind of weak......care to ellaborate.
My perception of the British view of Scuderia Ferrari is less than "positive".
BTW...finally saw and enjoyed the video........
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
Tis true. Mr. Felstead himself is on record in this forum as having said that Ferrari and Schumacher are cheaters. About the only neutral F1 site I have run across, and even they have a tinge of the anti-Ferrari slant, is GrandPrix.com, though they also have offices in New York and ???.
PlanetF1 is almost certainly the worst, and when I read the Telegraph and the Guardian during my French vacations, they are generally respectful, but negative "Ferrari won, boy was it boring and sucky!" :lol:
It's also worth noting that print media shades more closely to neutral than Web-based media.
Kevin
My perception of the British view of Scuderia Ferrari is less than "positive".
BTW...finally saw and enjoyed the video........
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
Tis true. Mr. Felstead himself is on record in this forum as having said that Ferrari and Schumacher are cheaters. About the only neutral F1 site I have run across, and even they have a tinge of the anti-Ferrari slant, is GrandPrix.com, though they also have offices in New York and ???.
PlanetF1 is almost certainly the worst, and when I read the Telegraph and the Guardian during my French vacations, they are generally respectful, but negative "Ferrari won, boy was it boring and sucky!" :lol:
It's also worth noting that print media shades more closely to neutral than Web-based media.
Kevin
| Ferg | 02-08-2005 05:15 PM |
Eh, I've been reading Autosport every week for the last twelve years or so and the only negative feeling I get from them is that they're a little tired of Schumacher and Ferrari being so dominant. It's more a case of, "Well here's the same story." then anything else. They certainly don't refraim from criticising the British teams for dropping the ball season after season. I've always found their reporting to be very fair and unbiased, and they almost always get it right.
As for web based news, I really only read Autosport.com and AtlasF1. They have the best in depth coverage I've found. It sucks that they're subscription only sites, but for me it's a small price to pay.
I'm jealous that Mr. Felstead gets to read Autosport (assuming he does of course) when it comes out and not a week later when it finally reaches the west coast. There's nothing like reading a race preview the Tuesday after the race...
25 days and counting....
As for web based news, I really only read Autosport.com and AtlasF1. They have the best in depth coverage I've found. It sucks that they're subscription only sites, but for me it's a small price to pay.
I'm jealous that Mr. Felstead gets to read Autosport (assuming he does of course) when it comes out and not a week later when it finally reaches the west coast. There's nothing like reading a race preview the Tuesday after the race...
25 days and counting....
| johnfelstead | 02-08-2005 05:30 PM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]Eh, I've been reading Autosport every week for the last twelve years or so and the only negative feeling I get from them is that they're a little tired of Schumacher and Ferrari being so dominant. It's more a case of, "Well here's the same story." then anything else. They certainly don't refraim from criticising the British teams for dropping the ball season after season. I've always found their reporting to be very fair and unbiased, and they almost always get it right.
[/QUOTE]
Precisely, you cant reference the tabloids for motorsport reporting Kevin, i was refering to Autosport and Motorsport News, i dont read any of that tabloid tripe, no serious motorsport fan does.
As to cheating, Ferrari have in the past, so has every other decent team, it's their job to push the rules as far as posible and sometimes they do go over the limit, even if that wasnt intended. Some of the old stories are quite good fun, such as bolting on wheels in a last lap pitstop that were filled with water so the car didnt fail weight scrutineering, or using the chassis tubes as a secondary fuel tank. :lol:
[/QUOTE]
Precisely, you cant reference the tabloids for motorsport reporting Kevin, i was refering to Autosport and Motorsport News, i dont read any of that tabloid tripe, no serious motorsport fan does.
As to cheating, Ferrari have in the past, so has every other decent team, it's their job to push the rules as far as posible and sometimes they do go over the limit, even if that wasnt intended. Some of the old stories are quite good fun, such as bolting on wheels in a last lap pitstop that were filled with water so the car didnt fail weight scrutineering, or using the chassis tubes as a secondary fuel tank. :lol:
| Ferg | 02-08-2005 05:32 PM |
My personal favorite has always been the "water cooled brakes" from the 1980s.
| johnfelstead | 02-08-2005 05:36 PM |
P.S Shuey has been a cheater in the past, he had all his points removed from him in 1997 and was struck off the season results for trying to bash JV off at the last race in Japan. He also won his first title by smashing his oponent off the track in the last race. He was also the driver on the team that was found cheating with their fuel rig flow rates in 1995, the senior guys responsible for that are now at Ferrari.
This doesnt take away the fact he is an awesome driver and that Brawn and Byrne are brilliant at their jobs, but they arent whiter than white. ;)
This doesnt take away the fact he is an awesome driver and that Brawn and Byrne are brilliant at their jobs, but they arent whiter than white. ;)
| BriDrive | 02-08-2005 08:02 PM |
After reading Matchett's books, I would only say that there are at least two sides to every story...I'm not convinced the fuel rig debacle held any water...and with regard to the Schumacher/Benetton points stripping, one must wonder just how badly "everyone else" wanted someone....anyone....to beat him out (D. Hill).
Its interesting to note that Schumacher has been somewhat stiffed in many ways and in many times right from the second year of his career onward.
BriDrive
Its interesting to note that Schumacher has been somewhat stiffed in many ways and in many times right from the second year of his career onward.
BriDrive
| johnfelstead | 02-08-2005 08:50 PM |
it was JV that beat Schuey when he had his points stripped, not DH, DH was in the Arrows That year. The FIA stripped his entire seasons points for good reason, the title was already lost at that point, it was a punishment for trying to bash his oponent off track, unlike with the DH incident, he didnt get away with it this time.
The fuel rig was found to have been tampered with, the flow restrictor had been removed which was a factor in the pit fire on Verstapens pit stop. Without that fire they probably would have gone all season with that cheat in place.
The fuel rig was found to have been tampered with, the flow restrictor had been removed which was a factor in the pit fire on Verstapens pit stop. Without that fire they probably would have gone all season with that cheat in place.
| OAKOS Automotive | 02-08-2005 09:56 PM |
I am excited for the new season to get underway! I just got the 2004 review DVD in the mail today to help get me more excited. :D
-Dave
-Dave
| BriDrive | 02-08-2005 10:19 PM |
Sure ...you're right about JV.
I'm not trying to degenerate this thread into some long drawn out argument in defense of Schumacher et al....BUT...........it wasn't a flow restrictor that was removed. Benetton had removed an add-on filter, which was retrofitted to the original specification Intertechnique rigs after many teams had complained of machining bits left over from the machining process of the rig itself. Benetton cleaned their rigs following every Grand Prix weekend and indicated they never saw evidence of this alleged machining debris and furthermore, filtered their fuel through far finer meshes before ever entering their rigs making the part redundant. They had received permission in fact to remove said item. If that was illegal, the team had plenty of time to "cover-up" the slight, as the rig was not even re-examined until Tuesday following the weekend. They obviously did not view the removal of the filter as an infringement.
Finally, the generally accepted media / FIA explanation that this "mod" was a cause in the fire was pure BS. The company that was hired to investigate the incident (AFTA) concluded that the Intertechnique rigs were not fail safe and that indeed misalignments could and did occur with the regard to the mating of the couplings. There was in fact no lock-out on the rigs, only the fueler's direct pressure on the coupling which opens the valve. Further, when requested during the investigation by AFTA, Intertechnique declined to provide engineering drawings to substantiate the tolerances, claiming confidentiality and quickly wisked up ALL the valves back to France and issued the FIA their very own report on the "cause" of the incident.
So....at least 2 sides to every story....
The injustices of the fated 1994 season from Benetton's standpoint are very well documented in Matchett's book "Life in the Fast Lane" .
I guess all of our opinions are a direct result of what each of us DOES and DOESN'T read.
BriDrive
I'm not trying to degenerate this thread into some long drawn out argument in defense of Schumacher et al....BUT...........it wasn't a flow restrictor that was removed. Benetton had removed an add-on filter, which was retrofitted to the original specification Intertechnique rigs after many teams had complained of machining bits left over from the machining process of the rig itself. Benetton cleaned their rigs following every Grand Prix weekend and indicated they never saw evidence of this alleged machining debris and furthermore, filtered their fuel through far finer meshes before ever entering their rigs making the part redundant. They had received permission in fact to remove said item. If that was illegal, the team had plenty of time to "cover-up" the slight, as the rig was not even re-examined until Tuesday following the weekend. They obviously did not view the removal of the filter as an infringement.
Finally, the generally accepted media / FIA explanation that this "mod" was a cause in the fire was pure BS. The company that was hired to investigate the incident (AFTA) concluded that the Intertechnique rigs were not fail safe and that indeed misalignments could and did occur with the regard to the mating of the couplings. There was in fact no lock-out on the rigs, only the fueler's direct pressure on the coupling which opens the valve. Further, when requested during the investigation by AFTA, Intertechnique declined to provide engineering drawings to substantiate the tolerances, claiming confidentiality and quickly wisked up ALL the valves back to France and issued the FIA their very own report on the "cause" of the incident.
So....at least 2 sides to every story....
The injustices of the fated 1994 season from Benetton's standpoint are very well documented in Matchett's book "Life in the Fast Lane" .
I guess all of our opinions are a direct result of what each of us DOES and DOESN'T read.
BriDrive
| Ferg | 02-08-2005 10:40 PM |
I've read all of Matchett's books, and I have tremendous respect for him as an author and F1 pundit. To be fair though, he was only a front end mechanic and rear jack man at Bennetton, not exactly the inner circle. His take on the events have to taken with a grain of salt as he freely admits to being very biased towards his old team. Great books though, I read The Chariot Makers in one sitting.
Personally I don't really care if the teams Schumacher has driven for have bent some rules in the past (although I do blame Ferrari for F1 being stuck with traction control) it's mostly his on track antics that bother me. I think he's without a doubt the most talented driver of his generation, but why he feels it's necessary to bang wheels, chop noses, and basically behave like a prat at times is beyond me. And no matter how many titles he wraps up it's always going to bother me that he's never allowed a truely fast team mate to get his hands on the other Ferrari.
In the end though it doesn't matter, he's probably going to win more than lose this year (once the new car gets sorted anyways) since I don't think he'll have much trouble adapting to the new regulations. The guy spent years driving sports cars and looking after his tires is very much old hat.
Personally I don't really care if the teams Schumacher has driven for have bent some rules in the past (although I do blame Ferrari for F1 being stuck with traction control) it's mostly his on track antics that bother me. I think he's without a doubt the most talented driver of his generation, but why he feels it's necessary to bang wheels, chop noses, and basically behave like a prat at times is beyond me. And no matter how many titles he wraps up it's always going to bother me that he's never allowed a truely fast team mate to get his hands on the other Ferrari.
In the end though it doesn't matter, he's probably going to win more than lose this year (once the new car gets sorted anyways) since I don't think he'll have much trouble adapting to the new regulations. The guy spent years driving sports cars and looking after his tires is very much old hat.
| polaris | 02-09-2005 12:07 AM |
[QUOTE=Kwyjibo]Well, Ferrari must be looking to cut costs if they want to sell Maseratti back to Fiat...and the whole Fiat/GM fiasco is interesting as well (although not F1 related).
Ferarri will probably dominate again...with an amazing 2.4L powerplant.
You need to have losers, becasue they determine the winner :D[/QUOTE]
Im under the impression that FIAT owns Ferrari. I get this from being a huge soccer fan, and I know the family that controls FIAT also controls Juventus Football Club, and there have been stories of Ferrari and FIAT ownership and what not. Schumacher practiced with the team a year or two ago. I have the pics :P
Ferarri will probably dominate again...with an amazing 2.4L powerplant.
You need to have losers, becasue they determine the winner :D[/QUOTE]
Im under the impression that FIAT owns Ferrari. I get this from being a huge soccer fan, and I know the family that controls FIAT also controls Juventus Football Club, and there have been stories of Ferrari and FIAT ownership and what not. Schumacher practiced with the team a year or two ago. I have the pics :P
| gtguy | 02-09-2005 10:53 AM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]Precisely, you cant reference the tabloids for motorsport reporting Kevin, i was refering to Autosport and Motorsport News, i dont read any of that tabloid tripe, no serious motorsport fan does.
As to cheating, Ferrari have in the past, so has every other decent team, it's their job to push the rules as far as posible and sometimes they do go over the limit, even if that wasnt intended. Some of the old stories are quite good fun, such as bolting on wheels in a last lap pitstop that were filled with water so the car didnt fail weight scrutineering, or using the chassis tubes as a secondary fuel tank. :lol:[/QUOTE]
I agree that Autosport is one of the winners. I'd forgotten about them because when they went all "premium" and whatnot, I stopped visiting the site.
I tend to gather F1 info wherever I can. Sometimes it's junk, sometimes there's actual information.
And yes, Polaris is right. Fiat does own Ferrari, not the other way 'round. And I would bet that the family is more distressed about Juventus suddenly looking very mortal, than the possibility of Ferrari's losing races. :lol:
And speaking of soccer, I suppose that once Mr. Felstead discovers that I'm an Arsenal fan, he'll never post to me again, except to crow about the spanking my lads got at the hands of Man. U.
Not to completely digress, but here in Chicago we have Fox Soccer Channel (Eng. Premier League, Bundesliga, etc.) and GolTV (Serie A, La Liga, etc). It's pretty cool to be able to watch EPL games, then other Euro stuff. One great Sunday, I was able to watch a live FA Cup match, a delayed EPL match, then La Liga and Serie A on GolTV. It was pretty amazing.
But to return to regularly scheduled programming, everybody (not just Ferrari) does cheat, which I'm glad people are acknowledging. And further, that Ferrari isn't any more evil than anyone else, which some folks might NOT be willing to acknowledge. :lol:
Kevin
As to cheating, Ferrari have in the past, so has every other decent team, it's their job to push the rules as far as posible and sometimes they do go over the limit, even if that wasnt intended. Some of the old stories are quite good fun, such as bolting on wheels in a last lap pitstop that were filled with water so the car didnt fail weight scrutineering, or using the chassis tubes as a secondary fuel tank. :lol:[/QUOTE]
I agree that Autosport is one of the winners. I'd forgotten about them because when they went all "premium" and whatnot, I stopped visiting the site.
I tend to gather F1 info wherever I can. Sometimes it's junk, sometimes there's actual information.
And yes, Polaris is right. Fiat does own Ferrari, not the other way 'round. And I would bet that the family is more distressed about Juventus suddenly looking very mortal, than the possibility of Ferrari's losing races. :lol:
And speaking of soccer, I suppose that once Mr. Felstead discovers that I'm an Arsenal fan, he'll never post to me again, except to crow about the spanking my lads got at the hands of Man. U.
Not to completely digress, but here in Chicago we have Fox Soccer Channel (Eng. Premier League, Bundesliga, etc.) and GolTV (Serie A, La Liga, etc). It's pretty cool to be able to watch EPL games, then other Euro stuff. One great Sunday, I was able to watch a live FA Cup match, a delayed EPL match, then La Liga and Serie A on GolTV. It was pretty amazing.
But to return to regularly scheduled programming, everybody (not just Ferrari) does cheat, which I'm glad people are acknowledging. And further, that Ferrari isn't any more evil than anyone else, which some folks might NOT be willing to acknowledge. :lol:
Kevin
| Ferg | 02-09-2005 12:28 PM |
from Autosport this morning
[QUOTE]Ferrari managing director Jean Todt has claimed that the recent $100 million incentive payment offered to the team by Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone to renew its commitment to compete in the FIA championship saved the Italian car manufacturer from having to leave the series.
The controversial deal has drawn harsh criticism for both Ferrari, which has left its GPWC co-founders high and dry to arrange a deal without the support of the reigning champions, and Ecclestone, who has been accused of engaging once again in divide and conquer tactics.
�We are a small company and we have to cover the costs of Formula 1,� Todt claimed in an interview with The Times. �We discussed very often leaving Formula 1 because it was costing too much money. Ferrari could have been in a position to stop being in Formula 1 - yes, that is sure. The trend of the evolution of rising costs without extra revenues put the question on the agenda. At the end of the day, we have to act in the interests of Ferrari.�
The Italian team, which is owned by global automotive giant Fiat, has traditionally had a far larger budget than any of its rivals, with a string of multinational sponsors and a history of disposing of smaller, long term supporting companies for newer, larger sponsors.
Todt claimed that, in making the deal with Ecclestone, Ferrari has led the way to an improved deal for the other nine teams. �Sooner or later, the reality and the logic will take over. I understand that, for some, it doesn't make sense, but it will.� Todt noted, before acknowledging his principal rationale behind the deal.
�We needed to agree the future for the sake of security. We couldn't just go off blind in a new direction and it was up to us to secure the future of Ferrari inside Formula 1.�
Todt's comments are in line with Ferrari's traditional line in the sport � team founder Enzo Ferrari, for example, refused to send his cars to the first ever world championship race, the British Grand Prix in 1950, because he felt that his team wasn't being adequately remunerated. The powers that be relented and the Ferraris were in Monaco for the next round.
With less than a month to go until the opening round of this year's championship it remains to be seen if the other nine teams will be quite so accepting of Ferrari's deal this time around.[/QUOTE]
24 days and counting...
[QUOTE]Ferrari managing director Jean Todt has claimed that the recent $100 million incentive payment offered to the team by Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone to renew its commitment to compete in the FIA championship saved the Italian car manufacturer from having to leave the series.
The controversial deal has drawn harsh criticism for both Ferrari, which has left its GPWC co-founders high and dry to arrange a deal without the support of the reigning champions, and Ecclestone, who has been accused of engaging once again in divide and conquer tactics.
�We are a small company and we have to cover the costs of Formula 1,� Todt claimed in an interview with The Times. �We discussed very often leaving Formula 1 because it was costing too much money. Ferrari could have been in a position to stop being in Formula 1 - yes, that is sure. The trend of the evolution of rising costs without extra revenues put the question on the agenda. At the end of the day, we have to act in the interests of Ferrari.�
The Italian team, which is owned by global automotive giant Fiat, has traditionally had a far larger budget than any of its rivals, with a string of multinational sponsors and a history of disposing of smaller, long term supporting companies for newer, larger sponsors.
Todt claimed that, in making the deal with Ecclestone, Ferrari has led the way to an improved deal for the other nine teams. �Sooner or later, the reality and the logic will take over. I understand that, for some, it doesn't make sense, but it will.� Todt noted, before acknowledging his principal rationale behind the deal.
�We needed to agree the future for the sake of security. We couldn't just go off blind in a new direction and it was up to us to secure the future of Ferrari inside Formula 1.�
Todt's comments are in line with Ferrari's traditional line in the sport � team founder Enzo Ferrari, for example, refused to send his cars to the first ever world championship race, the British Grand Prix in 1950, because he felt that his team wasn't being adequately remunerated. The powers that be relented and the Ferraris were in Monaco for the next round.
With less than a month to go until the opening round of this year's championship it remains to be seen if the other nine teams will be quite so accepting of Ferrari's deal this time around.[/QUOTE]
24 days and counting...
| Ferg | 02-09-2005 12:33 PM |
The latest testing times from Jerez to ponder...
[QUOTE]Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya dominated the second day of this week's testing at the Jerez circuit in Cadiz, Spain.
The McLaren driver, again at the wheel of the MP4-20 with the radical "horn" wing, was nearly half a second faster than Williams rival Nick Heidfeld. The German had a productive session with the new Williams FW27, covering a total of 125 laps to outpace his teammate Mark Webber by over half a second.
Brazilian Felipe Massa had another good day at Jerez and posted the third quickest time as the Sauber team continued working on the development of the new Petronas-powered C24. Massa's teammate Jacques Villeneuve, slowest yesterday, was only 12th fastest today.
"Today we worked with Felipe on further improvements of the car's set-up, and also ran Michelin tyre and brake tests," explained Sauber's race engineer Jacky Eeckelaert. "With Jacques we focused on brake evaluations and compared different dampers.
"For tomorrow we have scheduled for both drivers to work with Michelin on a tyre programme for Melbourne. Overall I'm quite happy with the performances today and the reliability of the C24."
Ferrari's Rubens Barrichello, testing a new construction of Bridgestone tyres, managed the fourth quickest time in the F2004M while test driver Luca Badoer wound up 13th in the hybrid F2004 machine.
The Renault team did not have their strongest of days and could not complete 100 laps between their two drivers Fernando Alonso and Giancarlo Fisichella. The Spanish driver, hit by mechanical problems during the day, was the quickest of the two after only 37 laps.
Austrian Christian Klien continued putting miles in the new Red Bull RB1 car debuted this week. Klien worked alongside Scot David Coulthard, eighth fastest on the day.
Japanese driver Takuma Sato had another disastrous day and, after being hit by mechanical problems early in the day, he crashed again after losing control of his car at the Peluqui corner.
The BAR-Honda driver, who had already crashed yesterday after losing his rear wing at the end of the straight, called it a day earlier than planned and only completed 15 laps to finish slowest. His teammate Anthony Davidson had a better day and covered a massive 155 laps with the second 007 car.
The Toyota team, who had a good session yesterday, were close to the bottom of the times. Jarno Trulli and Ricardo Zonta were 14th and 15th fastest respectively, both men working with the TF105.
Testing continues tomorrow.
Today's times:
Pos Driver Team-Engine Tyres Time Laps
1. Montoya McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:16.803 102
2. Heidfeld Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.379 125
3. Massa Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:17.395 99
4. Barrichello Ferrari (B) 1:17.447 70
5. Alonso Renault (M) 1:17.530 37
6. Klien Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.582 110
7. Fisichella Renault (M) 1:17.630 59
8. Coulthard Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.915 80
9. Webber Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.933 33
10. de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:17.953 98
11. Davidson BAR-Honda (M) 1:18.272 155
12. Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:18.610 95
13. Badoer Ferrari (B) 1:18.674 74
14. Trulli Toyota (M) 1:19.044 91
15. Zonta Toyota (M) 1:19.770 74
16. Sato BAR-Honda (M) 1:20.060 15[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya dominated the second day of this week's testing at the Jerez circuit in Cadiz, Spain.
The McLaren driver, again at the wheel of the MP4-20 with the radical "horn" wing, was nearly half a second faster than Williams rival Nick Heidfeld. The German had a productive session with the new Williams FW27, covering a total of 125 laps to outpace his teammate Mark Webber by over half a second.
Brazilian Felipe Massa had another good day at Jerez and posted the third quickest time as the Sauber team continued working on the development of the new Petronas-powered C24. Massa's teammate Jacques Villeneuve, slowest yesterday, was only 12th fastest today.
"Today we worked with Felipe on further improvements of the car's set-up, and also ran Michelin tyre and brake tests," explained Sauber's race engineer Jacky Eeckelaert. "With Jacques we focused on brake evaluations and compared different dampers.
"For tomorrow we have scheduled for both drivers to work with Michelin on a tyre programme for Melbourne. Overall I'm quite happy with the performances today and the reliability of the C24."
Ferrari's Rubens Barrichello, testing a new construction of Bridgestone tyres, managed the fourth quickest time in the F2004M while test driver Luca Badoer wound up 13th in the hybrid F2004 machine.
The Renault team did not have their strongest of days and could not complete 100 laps between their two drivers Fernando Alonso and Giancarlo Fisichella. The Spanish driver, hit by mechanical problems during the day, was the quickest of the two after only 37 laps.
Austrian Christian Klien continued putting miles in the new Red Bull RB1 car debuted this week. Klien worked alongside Scot David Coulthard, eighth fastest on the day.
Japanese driver Takuma Sato had another disastrous day and, after being hit by mechanical problems early in the day, he crashed again after losing control of his car at the Peluqui corner.
The BAR-Honda driver, who had already crashed yesterday after losing his rear wing at the end of the straight, called it a day earlier than planned and only completed 15 laps to finish slowest. His teammate Anthony Davidson had a better day and covered a massive 155 laps with the second 007 car.
The Toyota team, who had a good session yesterday, were close to the bottom of the times. Jarno Trulli and Ricardo Zonta were 14th and 15th fastest respectively, both men working with the TF105.
Testing continues tomorrow.
Today's times:
Pos Driver Team-Engine Tyres Time Laps
1. Montoya McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:16.803 102
2. Heidfeld Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.379 125
3. Massa Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:17.395 99
4. Barrichello Ferrari (B) 1:17.447 70
5. Alonso Renault (M) 1:17.530 37
6. Klien Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.582 110
7. Fisichella Renault (M) 1:17.630 59
8. Coulthard Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.915 80
9. Webber Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.933 33
10. de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:17.953 98
11. Davidson BAR-Honda (M) 1:18.272 155
12. Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:18.610 95
13. Badoer Ferrari (B) 1:18.674 74
14. Trulli Toyota (M) 1:19.044 91
15. Zonta Toyota (M) 1:19.770 74
16. Sato BAR-Honda (M) 1:20.060 15[/QUOTE]
| finnRex | 02-09-2005 10:13 PM |
Sato...crashed? Are you sure? How am I not surprised. I like Takuma, and I'd like to see him do well. But you can't do well when you can't keep the rubber on the road.
MB so far looks promising. JPM is doing well regarding the MP4-20, and I firmly believe Kimi is going to be right up there with said Pablo. I may be seeing some light for the Benz crew for the '05 season.
Mika(please don't crush my hopes and aspirations :lol: )
MB so far looks promising. JPM is doing well regarding the MP4-20, and I firmly believe Kimi is going to be right up there with said Pablo. I may be seeing some light for the Benz crew for the '05 season.
Mika(please don't crush my hopes and aspirations :lol: )
| BillT | 02-10-2005 09:07 AM |
Sato's crash was apparantly caused by a rear wing failure and not his somewhat erratic driving style [EDIT - Sato crashed again today - running wide, going off course and smacking the tire barrier]. I think this year we'll once again see Ferrari at the top and see both Honda and Renault slip a bit relative to last year. I can't wait for the season to start.
| johnfelstead | 02-10-2005 03:48 PM |
Webber is getting his arse kicked by Nick, which is nice. :D
Button crashed today too, it sounds like BAR have a few issues to solve!
Button crashed today too, it sounds like BAR have a few issues to solve!
| Ferg | 02-10-2005 03:58 PM |
Today's testing report and times from Jezez.
[QUOTE]Spaniard Fernando Alonso set a blistering pace at the Jerez circuit, coming close to breaking the unofficial track record held by World Champion Michael Schumacher, on the third day of this week's testing.
The Renault driver stopped the clock at 1:15.732, less than one tenth of a second behind Schumacher's time of 1:15.650, set in September last year. Alonso, driving the French squad's R25 car, was the only man who lapped in less than 76 seconds.
"Yesterday we didn't manage a lot of laps, but today we did and we achieved good times," said Alonso, who also admitted the team ran with low fuel loads. His teammate Giancarlo Fisichella also had a good session and finished as third quickest in the second R25.
"We have learned a lot from our running this week, and it was pleasing to complete a full day's work with both drivers today," said Renault's chief test engineer Christian Silk. "There is still a lot of work to do before the first race in Melbourne, and we have two busy tests ahead of us.
"However, we have confirmed the car's strong performance from Valencia here in Jerez, on a more typical circuit, and we hope to see these corroborated next week at Barcelona, an active Grand Prix venue. Certainly, our results so far lead us to believe that we are in very good shape for the first race of the year."
Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya split the Renault drivers in the only McLaren on track today after working on tyre selection for the Malaysian Grand Prix. Montoya was hit by clutch problems in the afternoon and could only complete one lap.
"We think the tyre testing we have done today will ensure we have the good rear stability and high speed consistency that is suited to the demands of the Sepang circuit," said Montoya. "It was unfortunate that we had to stop today's testing programme early, however I am looking forward to getting back behind the wheel tomorrow."
Montoya's teammate Kimi Raikkonen did not take part in today's session as scheduled after the team discovered a damaged suspension part on his MP4-20 late last night. The damaged part was flown back to the McLaren Technology Centre early this morning for checks and the Finn is expected to test tomorrow.
Jarno Trulli was fourth quickest in the first of the Toyotas, outpacing his teammate Ralf Schumacher by a whole second. Both men drove the new TF105.
The Sauber team completed their three-day test with both Felipe Massa and Jacques Villeneuve driving the C24 chassis. Massa was again the fastest of the two, outpacing Villeneuve by nearly two seconds after the Canadian's day finished early due to mechanical problems.
"Today we compared different pre-selected Michelin tyres in long-runs to simulate race conditions whereby Felipe focused on preparations for the Australian Grand Prix and Jacques on Sepang," explained Jacky Eeckelaert, Sauber's chief race engineer.
"Jacques also ran further damper tests. He was forced to stop just before the end of today's test session due to technical problems which now need to be investigated. Despite of the bad weather and track conditions on Tuesday morning we were able to complete our scheduled programme for the week.
"Compared to our last test in Barcelona we improved the car and made progress. We believe that we can expect another step forward at our final pre-season test in Imola."
The Red Bull Racing team had three drivers in action today, with Scot David Coulthard finishing as the quickest of the trio. Austrian Christian Klien was 13th, while Italian Vitantonio Liuzzi, who joined the test today, was slowest after 62 laps.
Jenson Button finished as eighth quickest. The Briton was involved in an accident at the Peluqui corner, the same place where teammate Takuma Sato had crashed yesterday. Button worked with the 007 car, while Sato drove last year's 006.
Michael Schumacher took over from Ferrari's test driver Luca Badoer as the World Champions worked with two F2004M cars for the first time. The second car driven by Rubens Barrichello. Ferrari's technical programme focussed on set-up, engine and Bridgestone tyre testing.
Renault and Sauber completed their work today, while the rest of the teams continue testing tomorrow.
Today's times:
Pos Driver Team-Engine Tyres Time Laps
1. Alonso Renault (M) 1:15.732 97
2. Montoya McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:16.442 50
3. Fisichella Renault (M) 1:16.647 70
4. Trulli Toyota (M) 1:16.748 96
5. Massa Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:17.268 103
6. Coulthard Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.525 87
7. R.Schumacher Toyota (M) 1:17.776 74
8. Button BAR-Honda (M) 1:17.985 72
9. Webber Williams-BMW (M) 1:18.038 93
10. M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 1:18.111 110
11. Sato BAR-Honda (M) 1:18.134 129
12. Barrichello Ferrari (B) 1:18.257 77
13. Klien Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:18.509 58
14. Heidfeld Williams-BMW (M) 1:18.719 56
15. Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:19.022 120
16. Liuzzi Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:20.110 62
All Timing Unofficial[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Spaniard Fernando Alonso set a blistering pace at the Jerez circuit, coming close to breaking the unofficial track record held by World Champion Michael Schumacher, on the third day of this week's testing.
The Renault driver stopped the clock at 1:15.732, less than one tenth of a second behind Schumacher's time of 1:15.650, set in September last year. Alonso, driving the French squad's R25 car, was the only man who lapped in less than 76 seconds.
"Yesterday we didn't manage a lot of laps, but today we did and we achieved good times," said Alonso, who also admitted the team ran with low fuel loads. His teammate Giancarlo Fisichella also had a good session and finished as third quickest in the second R25.
"We have learned a lot from our running this week, and it was pleasing to complete a full day's work with both drivers today," said Renault's chief test engineer Christian Silk. "There is still a lot of work to do before the first race in Melbourne, and we have two busy tests ahead of us.
"However, we have confirmed the car's strong performance from Valencia here in Jerez, on a more typical circuit, and we hope to see these corroborated next week at Barcelona, an active Grand Prix venue. Certainly, our results so far lead us to believe that we are in very good shape for the first race of the year."
Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya split the Renault drivers in the only McLaren on track today after working on tyre selection for the Malaysian Grand Prix. Montoya was hit by clutch problems in the afternoon and could only complete one lap.
"We think the tyre testing we have done today will ensure we have the good rear stability and high speed consistency that is suited to the demands of the Sepang circuit," said Montoya. "It was unfortunate that we had to stop today's testing programme early, however I am looking forward to getting back behind the wheel tomorrow."
Montoya's teammate Kimi Raikkonen did not take part in today's session as scheduled after the team discovered a damaged suspension part on his MP4-20 late last night. The damaged part was flown back to the McLaren Technology Centre early this morning for checks and the Finn is expected to test tomorrow.
Jarno Trulli was fourth quickest in the first of the Toyotas, outpacing his teammate Ralf Schumacher by a whole second. Both men drove the new TF105.
The Sauber team completed their three-day test with both Felipe Massa and Jacques Villeneuve driving the C24 chassis. Massa was again the fastest of the two, outpacing Villeneuve by nearly two seconds after the Canadian's day finished early due to mechanical problems.
"Today we compared different pre-selected Michelin tyres in long-runs to simulate race conditions whereby Felipe focused on preparations for the Australian Grand Prix and Jacques on Sepang," explained Jacky Eeckelaert, Sauber's chief race engineer.
"Jacques also ran further damper tests. He was forced to stop just before the end of today's test session due to technical problems which now need to be investigated. Despite of the bad weather and track conditions on Tuesday morning we were able to complete our scheduled programme for the week.
"Compared to our last test in Barcelona we improved the car and made progress. We believe that we can expect another step forward at our final pre-season test in Imola."
The Red Bull Racing team had three drivers in action today, with Scot David Coulthard finishing as the quickest of the trio. Austrian Christian Klien was 13th, while Italian Vitantonio Liuzzi, who joined the test today, was slowest after 62 laps.
Jenson Button finished as eighth quickest. The Briton was involved in an accident at the Peluqui corner, the same place where teammate Takuma Sato had crashed yesterday. Button worked with the 007 car, while Sato drove last year's 006.
Michael Schumacher took over from Ferrari's test driver Luca Badoer as the World Champions worked with two F2004M cars for the first time. The second car driven by Rubens Barrichello. Ferrari's technical programme focussed on set-up, engine and Bridgestone tyre testing.
Renault and Sauber completed their work today, while the rest of the teams continue testing tomorrow.
Today's times:
Pos Driver Team-Engine Tyres Time Laps
1. Alonso Renault (M) 1:15.732 97
2. Montoya McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:16.442 50
3. Fisichella Renault (M) 1:16.647 70
4. Trulli Toyota (M) 1:16.748 96
5. Massa Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:17.268 103
6. Coulthard Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.525 87
7. R.Schumacher Toyota (M) 1:17.776 74
8. Button BAR-Honda (M) 1:17.985 72
9. Webber Williams-BMW (M) 1:18.038 93
10. M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 1:18.111 110
11. Sato BAR-Honda (M) 1:18.134 129
12. Barrichello Ferrari (B) 1:18.257 77
13. Klien Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:18.509 58
14. Heidfeld Williams-BMW (M) 1:18.719 56
15. Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas (M) 1:19.022 120
16. Liuzzi Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:20.110 62
All Timing Unofficial[/QUOTE]
| Lafora | 02-11-2005 01:38 AM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]P.S Shuey has been a cheater in the past, he had all his points removed from him in 1997 and was struck off the season results for trying to bash JV off at the last race in Japan. He also won his first title by smashing his oponent off the track in the last race. He was also the driver on the team that was found cheating with their fuel rig flow rates in 1995, the senior guys responsible for that are now at Ferrari.
This doesnt take away the fact he is an awesome driver and that Brawn and Byrne are brilliant at their jobs, but they arent whiter than white. ;)[/QUOTE]
it's actually at Jerez and not japan :)
This doesnt take away the fact he is an awesome driver and that Brawn and Byrne are brilliant at their jobs, but they arent whiter than white. ;)[/QUOTE]
it's actually at Jerez and not japan :)
| johnfelstead | 02-11-2005 07:29 AM |
yep, your right. :)
| gtguy | 02-11-2005 08:42 AM |
Mind you, I would also quibble with the characterization of Schumacher's first title as having been won by "smashing his opponent off the track." When you watch the replays, clearly, Schumacher was doing what any driver would do, which is try to get back onto the racing line and get on with business. Had Hill shown circumspection, and waited (he was clearly faster than Schumacher at that point, before the latter found his way off the course), he could have passed easily and cleanly, rather than trying to rush past in a moment of ill-considered haste.
Of course, as we all know, Schumacher was so deeply into Hill's head at that point, that none of that stuff occurred to the then-Williams driver. All he could think was "Now's my chance!"
The Speed Channel commentators, particularly Hobbs, during the "F1 Decade" rebroadcast of that race, were something of the same mind. That Schumacher wasn't really thinking about anything except getting back on the racing line, and what the heck was Hill doing. The Villeneuve thing was certainly an example of poor sportsmanship, no question. But perhaps once Schumacher is dead, that move will become a sign of "competitive fire" as it has become with Senna, who had a pretty full roster of collisions with other drivers on his record, 15 or 16 over a decade or so, I recall reading somewhere.
Kevin
Of course, as we all know, Schumacher was so deeply into Hill's head at that point, that none of that stuff occurred to the then-Williams driver. All he could think was "Now's my chance!"
The Speed Channel commentators, particularly Hobbs, during the "F1 Decade" rebroadcast of that race, were something of the same mind. That Schumacher wasn't really thinking about anything except getting back on the racing line, and what the heck was Hill doing. The Villeneuve thing was certainly an example of poor sportsmanship, no question. But perhaps once Schumacher is dead, that move will become a sign of "competitive fire" as it has become with Senna, who had a pretty full roster of collisions with other drivers on his record, 15 or 16 over a decade or so, I recall reading somewhere.
Kevin
| johnfelstead | 02-11-2005 10:32 AM |
We are going over very old ground, but there is no way MS didnt know Hill was there, he made a deliberate move into him. If you care to examine it again you will see MS hit the wall then drove back online to the left, hill came behind him and started to look to pass on his left at which point MS drove agresively left to block that line, hill then went to the right at which point MS accelerated hard once hill was starting his pass on the right and then MS turned in on hill deliberately. MS knew he was there, he reacted like any racer would to hill's first intended move to his left, once he knew his car was hobbled he decided to try and take hill out. Watch the film again, it's about as clear an incident as you will see in racing if you see the entire sequence from where MS hits the wall. Michaels anctics with JV in 1997 proved he was capable of such tactics and intent, so even that slight doubt was erased.
Shuey had a raw deal in 94 in terms of the number of points he stacked up verses how superior he was when he was racing that year, but that doesnt excuse the fact he deliberately took out an oponent to win his first championship, Hill knows thats the case and so does Michael.
The only time i remember Senna deliberately taking out an opononet was Japan, after he qualified on pole position in the last race of the championship and then JM Balstre moved the pole spot to the dirty side of the track. Senna was furious and predicted, rightly that this would give Prost the lead into the first corner. Senna said he would keep his foot in, and he did.
Shuey had a raw deal in 94 in terms of the number of points he stacked up verses how superior he was when he was racing that year, but that doesnt excuse the fact he deliberately took out an oponent to win his first championship, Hill knows thats the case and so does Michael.
The only time i remember Senna deliberately taking out an opononet was Japan, after he qualified on pole position in the last race of the championship and then JM Balstre moved the pole spot to the dirty side of the track. Senna was furious and predicted, rightly that this would give Prost the lead into the first corner. Senna said he would keep his foot in, and he did.
| gtguy | 02-11-2005 12:30 PM |
Charlie Whiting wins this week's Pollyanna award...
�
�
11/02/05 - 13:16]
Rule loophole over race finishing
How to gain a fresh engine by parking the car
Stopping on track could be an advantage
Finishing a race outside of the points could be a thing of the past for many runners. With the latest raft if regulations determining that an engine must last for two races drivers could park healthy cars on the final lap of the race in order to gain a fresh engine for the next race the March edition of F1 Racing magazine has highlighted.
The 2005 FIA rules state that �Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two events may start the second with a different engine without incurring a penalty.�
Naturally this rule �anomaly� will play nicely into the hand of those drivers who have had a poor first race or those who have simply not had the performance to break into a points scoring position. By simply pulling to a halt on the final lap and not finishing the race the race driver is entitled to a fresh V10 for the following event.
The definition of finishing race in this instance is taking the chequered flag, not completing a majority of the race distance or even completing 90 percent in order to be classified as a race finisher.
[b]FIA Race Director and Safety Delegate Charlie Whiting told F1 Racing Magazine that he believes teams will not take advantage of this loophole in the rules[/b] and that a ten position penalty for a car that failed to last the distance would be too harsh. It should also be noted that a ten position penalty still applies to those who have an engine change during practice or qualification.
Earl ALEXANDER
� CAPSIS International
Rule loophole over race finishing
How to gain a fresh engine by parking the car
Stopping on track could be an advantage
Finishing a race outside of the points could be a thing of the past for many runners. With the latest raft if regulations determining that an engine must last for two races drivers could park healthy cars on the final lap of the race in order to gain a fresh engine for the next race the March edition of F1 Racing magazine has highlighted.
The 2005 FIA rules state that �Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two events may start the second with a different engine without incurring a penalty.�
Naturally this rule �anomaly� will play nicely into the hand of those drivers who have had a poor first race or those who have simply not had the performance to break into a points scoring position. By simply pulling to a halt on the final lap and not finishing the race the race driver is entitled to a fresh V10 for the following event.
The definition of finishing race in this instance is taking the chequered flag, not completing a majority of the race distance or even completing 90 percent in order to be classified as a race finisher.
[b]FIA Race Director and Safety Delegate Charlie Whiting told F1 Racing Magazine that he believes teams will not take advantage of this loophole in the rules[/b] and that a ten position penalty for a car that failed to last the distance would be too harsh. It should also be noted that a ten position penalty still applies to those who have an engine change during practice or qualification.
Earl ALEXANDER
� CAPSIS International
| kfoote | 02-11-2005 12:37 PM |
[QUOTE=gtguy]
...[b]FIA Race Director and Safety Delegate Charlie Whiting told F1 Racing Magazine that he believes teams will not take advantage of this loophole in the rules[/b]... [/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: Best laugh I've had all day. 8 cars will take the checkered flag at every race until this loophole is closed. IMO, it would be a bad move for any F1 team to not take advantage of this. I certainly would if I was a F1 team manager.
...[b]FIA Race Director and Safety Delegate Charlie Whiting told F1 Racing Magazine that he believes teams will not take advantage of this loophole in the rules[/b]... [/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: Best laugh I've had all day. 8 cars will take the checkered flag at every race until this loophole is closed. IMO, it would be a bad move for any F1 team to not take advantage of this. I certainly would if I was a F1 team manager.
| Rick Hunter | 02-11-2005 03:14 PM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]We are going over very old ground, but there is no way MS didnt know Hill was there, he made a deliberate move into him. If you care to examine it again you will see MS hit the wall then drove back online to the left, hill came behind him and started to look to pass on his left at which point MS drove agresively left to block that line, hill then went to the right at which point MS accelerated hard once hill was starting his pass on the right and then MS turned in on hill deliberately. MS knew he was there, he reacted like any racer would to hill's first intended move to his left, once he knew his car was hobbled he decided to try and take hill out. Watch the film again, it's about as clear an incident as you will see in racing if you see the entire sequence from where MS hits the wall. Michaels anctics with JV in 1997 proved he was capable of such tactics and intent, so even that slight doubt was erased.
Shuey had a raw deal in 94 in terms of the number of points he stacked up verses how superior he was when he was racing that year, but that doesnt excuse the fact he deliberately took out an oponent to win his first championship, Hill knows thats the case and so does Michael.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.virgeweb.com/rage2/misc/schumacher94.wmv[/url] << the collision.
I agree that Schumi blocked him once by driving to the left, but he was techically on the race line and followed it to the apex. Yes, you can see him turn the steering wheel right 3-4 times as he's approaching the apex, perhaps possibly indicating that the car's suspension was damaged or out of alignment, but Schumi was a half car length ahead of Hill at the time of the collision and was on the racing line, Hill wasn't. Schumi did not yeild for Hill's passing attempt and closed the door. Granted, it wasn't a very gentleman-like move, but as you mentioned, Schumi did indeed get a raw deal regarding points in 94, and Hill should have known that (from their previous collisions that year and unjust removal of Schumi's points from the British GP for passing on the formation lap). Hill should have chilled out and waited for a better opportunity. Schumi should have already won that season earlier. It's not as clear cut as you're making it sound, please go watch the clip again.
Shuey had a raw deal in 94 in terms of the number of points he stacked up verses how superior he was when he was racing that year, but that doesnt excuse the fact he deliberately took out an oponent to win his first championship, Hill knows thats the case and so does Michael.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.virgeweb.com/rage2/misc/schumacher94.wmv[/url] << the collision.
I agree that Schumi blocked him once by driving to the left, but he was techically on the race line and followed it to the apex. Yes, you can see him turn the steering wheel right 3-4 times as he's approaching the apex, perhaps possibly indicating that the car's suspension was damaged or out of alignment, but Schumi was a half car length ahead of Hill at the time of the collision and was on the racing line, Hill wasn't. Schumi did not yeild for Hill's passing attempt and closed the door. Granted, it wasn't a very gentleman-like move, but as you mentioned, Schumi did indeed get a raw deal regarding points in 94, and Hill should have known that (from their previous collisions that year and unjust removal of Schumi's points from the British GP for passing on the formation lap). Hill should have chilled out and waited for a better opportunity. Schumi should have already won that season earlier. It's not as clear cut as you're making it sound, please go watch the clip again.
| bemani | 02-11-2005 07:29 PM |
[QUOTE=gtguy]11/02/05 - 13:16]
Rule loophole over race finishing
How to gain a fresh engine by parking the car
[/QUOTE]
Haha, I KNEW IT!
:banana:
Rule loophole over race finishing
How to gain a fresh engine by parking the car
[/QUOTE]
Haha, I KNEW IT!
:banana:
| gtguy | 02-11-2005 07:51 PM |
It will be pretty interesting to see how the FIA closes the engine loophole. It's too bad that two-way telemetry is banned, or the teams could just shut the car down from the pit wall, tow it in, and off we go to the new engine shop. :lol:
I'm sure that there will have to be some implementation of a "legitimate technical difficulty" rule, the only question being who and what constitutes legitimate? Presumably, the FIA scrutineers know when a car is for-real busticated (my bicycle mechanic made that word up...pretty funny), so when does the boondoggling begin?
That's a crazy rule, that I'm sure they are now sorry they added to the agreement. :lol: But as others (and Whiting himself) have pointed out, if you aren't going to finish in the points, you might as well start afresh with a new engine. The only bugbear I see is if you have a power issue, you have a power issue, new engine or not. But certainly, if someone has a minor engine problem that would preclude their having full mojo for the next GP, heck yeah, they'll just park the car and pop in a new powerplant for next time.
Kevin
I'm sure that there will have to be some implementation of a "legitimate technical difficulty" rule, the only question being who and what constitutes legitimate? Presumably, the FIA scrutineers know when a car is for-real busticated (my bicycle mechanic made that word up...pretty funny), so when does the boondoggling begin?
That's a crazy rule, that I'm sure they are now sorry they added to the agreement. :lol: But as others (and Whiting himself) have pointed out, if you aren't going to finish in the points, you might as well start afresh with a new engine. The only bugbear I see is if you have a power issue, you have a power issue, new engine or not. But certainly, if someone has a minor engine problem that would preclude their having full mojo for the next GP, heck yeah, they'll just park the car and pop in a new powerplant for next time.
Kevin
| johnfelstead | 02-11-2005 08:39 PM |
[QUOTE=Rick Hunter][url]http://www.virgeweb.com/rage2/misc/schumacher94.wmv[/url] << the collision.
I agree that Schumi blocked him once by driving to the left, but he was techically on the race line and followed it to the apex. Yes, you can see him turn the steering wheel right 3-4 times as he's approaching the apex, perhaps possibly indicating that the car's suspension was damaged or out of alignment, but Schumi was a half car length ahead of Hill at the time of the collision and was on the racing line, Hill wasn't. Schumi did not yeild for Hill's passing attempt and closed the door. Granted, it wasn't a very gentleman-like move, but as you mentioned, Schumi did indeed get a raw deal regarding points in 94, and Hill should have known that (from their previous collisions that year and unjust removal of Schumi's points from the British GP for passing on the formation lap). Hill should have chilled out and waited for a better opportunity. Schumi should have already won that season earlier. It's not as clear cut as you're making it sound, please go watch the clip again.[/QUOTE]
He didnt close the door, he ramed the guy so hard he ended up on two wheels and nearly flipped over. I wasnt just ungentlemanly, it brought the sport into disrepute, something that in 97 got him thrown out of the championship standings. What you dont see in that clip is the view from Damon Hills car, i have that on tape and watched it before i posted last time, it's plain as day whats going on from that angle. The view facing the cars as they aproach shows well how hobbled MS car is, any driver with anything about him would not have taken the racing line with a car so damaged unless the intent was to damage your oponents car, it was obvious the car was dead and MS knew that so decided to wipe hill out.
As to MS getting his points taken away at Silverstone, that wasnt for passing hill on the parade lap, that was for ignoring the black flag, which is about as serious as it gets in motor racing, drivers in lesser formula lose their race licence for that offence.
As to hill chilling out, he had been on MS arse all race and couldnt find a way past when his car was faster, shuey cut his nose off a few times. At the point of the crash MS had been pulling away from hill after the last pitstop so when he saw MS had made a mistake and had been off he had to make a move there and then, he didnt see MS hit the wall so had no knowledge of the posibility his car would be damaged, as far as he was concerned it might have been the only chance in the race to get past.
MS, great driver but seriously flawed in some aspects of his driving early on, he often pushed his luck too far with Hill, Spa being a good example where after the race Damon gave him a right good ear bashing for forcing him off track, famously murrey walker was comentating about how hill and MS obviously got on OK because they were having a chat, as usual he was wrong. :lol:
I agree that Schumi blocked him once by driving to the left, but he was techically on the race line and followed it to the apex. Yes, you can see him turn the steering wheel right 3-4 times as he's approaching the apex, perhaps possibly indicating that the car's suspension was damaged or out of alignment, but Schumi was a half car length ahead of Hill at the time of the collision and was on the racing line, Hill wasn't. Schumi did not yeild for Hill's passing attempt and closed the door. Granted, it wasn't a very gentleman-like move, but as you mentioned, Schumi did indeed get a raw deal regarding points in 94, and Hill should have known that (from their previous collisions that year and unjust removal of Schumi's points from the British GP for passing on the formation lap). Hill should have chilled out and waited for a better opportunity. Schumi should have already won that season earlier. It's not as clear cut as you're making it sound, please go watch the clip again.[/QUOTE]
He didnt close the door, he ramed the guy so hard he ended up on two wheels and nearly flipped over. I wasnt just ungentlemanly, it brought the sport into disrepute, something that in 97 got him thrown out of the championship standings. What you dont see in that clip is the view from Damon Hills car, i have that on tape and watched it before i posted last time, it's plain as day whats going on from that angle. The view facing the cars as they aproach shows well how hobbled MS car is, any driver with anything about him would not have taken the racing line with a car so damaged unless the intent was to damage your oponents car, it was obvious the car was dead and MS knew that so decided to wipe hill out.
As to MS getting his points taken away at Silverstone, that wasnt for passing hill on the parade lap, that was for ignoring the black flag, which is about as serious as it gets in motor racing, drivers in lesser formula lose their race licence for that offence.
As to hill chilling out, he had been on MS arse all race and couldnt find a way past when his car was faster, shuey cut his nose off a few times. At the point of the crash MS had been pulling away from hill after the last pitstop so when he saw MS had made a mistake and had been off he had to make a move there and then, he didnt see MS hit the wall so had no knowledge of the posibility his car would be damaged, as far as he was concerned it might have been the only chance in the race to get past.
MS, great driver but seriously flawed in some aspects of his driving early on, he often pushed his luck too far with Hill, Spa being a good example where after the race Damon gave him a right good ear bashing for forcing him off track, famously murrey walker was comentating about how hill and MS obviously got on OK because they were having a chat, as usual he was wrong. :lol:
| Ferg | 02-12-2005 12:00 AM |
It was ten years ago people...even Damon has gotten over it by now :p
Today's times and report from Jerez...
[QUOTE]Briton Jenson Button upped the pace of his BAR-Honda 007 on Friday to top the times on the final day of this week's testing at the Jerez circuit.
Button finished with a best time of 1:15.680, just .030 seconds off the unofficial track record held by Michael Schumacher. The BAR driver, however, could not escape problems and his car stopped twice on track during the session.
The Briton's lap was the best of the week after he improved on Fernando Alonso's time from yesterday.
Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya was second quickest but over half a second behind Button. Montoya was joined today by teammate Kimi Raikkonen in the second MP4-20 after the Finn was forced to miss yesterday's session due to a problem with the suspension of his car.
Ferrari driver Michael Schumacher posted the third fastest time of the day in the F2004M as the World Champions completed their work at Jerez. Luca Badoer was also in action for the Italian squad, the test driver finishing the day slowest.
The Red Bull Racing team completed the first test with their new RB1, which was unveiled earlier this week. David Coulthard was once again the fastest of the Red Bull drivers, while Italian Vitantonio Liuzzi was seventh on the timesheets.
Mark Webber and Nick Heidfeld wrapped up Williams' work for the week, the Australian being the fastest of the two after 114 laps. Heidfeld, in the second FW27, was the busiest man with 136 laps completed.
Brazilian Ricardo Zonta was eighth and quickest of the two Toyota TF105 cars on track, outpacing German Ralf Schumacher. Zonta, who returned to action today after taking over from Italian Jarno Trulli, will be working on tyre testing over the weekend.
"I spent Tuesday doing set-up work because it was my first day driving the new car in Jerez," said Zonta. "On Wednesday we did some tyre work and some longer runs. I had one enforced stoppage with a gearbox problem but it was good to learn more about how the car behaves in race conditions.
"I returned to the cockpit on Friday to continue the work on long runs. I also completed a small shakedown of the TF104B that I will be using for some wet tyre testing here over the weekend."
BAR and Toyota will carry out wet weather testing behind closed doors over the weekend.
Today's times:
Pos Driver Team-Engine Tyres Time Laps
1. Button BAR-Honda (M) 1:15.680 130
2. Montoya McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:16.192 96
3. M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 1:16.662 127
4. Coulthard Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:16.797 101
5. Raikkonen McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:17.356 102
6. Webber Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.411 114
7. Liuzzi Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.436 109
8. Zonta Toyota (M) 1:17.710 116
9. Heidfeld Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.921 136
10. R.Schumacher Toyota (M) 1:18.062 110
11. Bernoldi BAR-Honda (M) 1:18.578 122
12. Badoer Ferrari (B) 1:18.773 80
All Timing Unofficial[/QUOTE]
Today's times and report from Jerez...
[QUOTE]Briton Jenson Button upped the pace of his BAR-Honda 007 on Friday to top the times on the final day of this week's testing at the Jerez circuit.
Button finished with a best time of 1:15.680, just .030 seconds off the unofficial track record held by Michael Schumacher. The BAR driver, however, could not escape problems and his car stopped twice on track during the session.
The Briton's lap was the best of the week after he improved on Fernando Alonso's time from yesterday.
Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya was second quickest but over half a second behind Button. Montoya was joined today by teammate Kimi Raikkonen in the second MP4-20 after the Finn was forced to miss yesterday's session due to a problem with the suspension of his car.
Ferrari driver Michael Schumacher posted the third fastest time of the day in the F2004M as the World Champions completed their work at Jerez. Luca Badoer was also in action for the Italian squad, the test driver finishing the day slowest.
The Red Bull Racing team completed the first test with their new RB1, which was unveiled earlier this week. David Coulthard was once again the fastest of the Red Bull drivers, while Italian Vitantonio Liuzzi was seventh on the timesheets.
Mark Webber and Nick Heidfeld wrapped up Williams' work for the week, the Australian being the fastest of the two after 114 laps. Heidfeld, in the second FW27, was the busiest man with 136 laps completed.
Brazilian Ricardo Zonta was eighth and quickest of the two Toyota TF105 cars on track, outpacing German Ralf Schumacher. Zonta, who returned to action today after taking over from Italian Jarno Trulli, will be working on tyre testing over the weekend.
"I spent Tuesday doing set-up work because it was my first day driving the new car in Jerez," said Zonta. "On Wednesday we did some tyre work and some longer runs. I had one enforced stoppage with a gearbox problem but it was good to learn more about how the car behaves in race conditions.
"I returned to the cockpit on Friday to continue the work on long runs. I also completed a small shakedown of the TF104B that I will be using for some wet tyre testing here over the weekend."
BAR and Toyota will carry out wet weather testing behind closed doors over the weekend.
Today's times:
Pos Driver Team-Engine Tyres Time Laps
1. Button BAR-Honda (M) 1:15.680 130
2. Montoya McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:16.192 96
3. M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 1:16.662 127
4. Coulthard Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:16.797 101
5. Raikkonen McLaren-Mercedes (M) 1:17.356 102
6. Webber Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.411 114
7. Liuzzi Red Bull-Cosworth (M) 1:17.436 109
8. Zonta Toyota (M) 1:17.710 116
9. Heidfeld Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.921 136
10. R.Schumacher Toyota (M) 1:18.062 110
11. Bernoldi BAR-Honda (M) 1:18.578 122
12. Badoer Ferrari (B) 1:18.773 80
All Timing Unofficial[/QUOTE]
| johnfelstead | 02-12-2005 06:41 AM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]It was ten years ago people...even Damon has gotten over it by now :p
[/QUOTE]
Just responding to Kevin who brought the subject up. :p
We might get to see MS playing his games again this year, he hasnt had the need for the last couple. ;)
[/QUOTE]
Just responding to Kevin who brought the subject up. :p
We might get to see MS playing his games again this year, he hasnt had the need for the last couple. ;)
| gtguy | 02-12-2005 08:53 AM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]It was ten years ago people...even Damon has gotten over it by now :p
Today's times and report from Jerez...[/QUOTE]
Ferg, I don't think anyone from the Isles will EVER get over that one! :lol: Hats off to John for having a sense of humor about a racing incident that is clearly open to interpretation. You'd need asbestos undies were you to bring the incident up in some spaces. :D
What's interesting is how off the pace Ferrari is. Some folks think that they aren't showing the whole enchilada, other folks think they're doomed, and that the F2005 won't come fast enough for them, after they take a whippin' in the first four races of the season.
Kevin
Today's times and report from Jerez...[/QUOTE]
Ferg, I don't think anyone from the Isles will EVER get over that one! :lol: Hats off to John for having a sense of humor about a racing incident that is clearly open to interpretation. You'd need asbestos undies were you to bring the incident up in some spaces. :D
What's interesting is how off the pace Ferrari is. Some folks think that they aren't showing the whole enchilada, other folks think they're doomed, and that the F2005 won't come fast enough for them, after they take a whippin' in the first four races of the season.
Kevin
| Lafora | 02-12-2005 11:22 AM |
Same thing happened last preseason when people were HOPING that Williams would kick their asses too.
and then look what happened lol
and then look what happened lol
| gargleblaster | 02-12-2005 03:02 PM |
Looking at those timesheets, I had the same impression - Button's going all out in the BAR, and Schuey's going about 4/5's of the Ferrari's potential. For the sake of excitement this year, I really hope I'm wrong.
| Ferg | 02-12-2005 06:04 PM |
I hate trying to predict the season from just the testing times..although things do look pretty close. Hard to say who's really fast and who's playing it cool. Next week at Barcelona should reveal which teams have gotten on top of the new regulations...watch this space.
I agree that Ferrari is not really showing their hand yet, they managed to sandbag most of last season until Monza afterall... I do think that they'll have an upper hand in the first races as far as setup goes. Everyone else is starting from zero again and the red boys have all of last year's data to pull from. New tires and aero regs sure, but Ferrari should be right up there from the start.
21 days to go.
I agree that Ferrari is not really showing their hand yet, they managed to sandbag most of last season until Monza afterall... I do think that they'll have an upper hand in the first races as far as setup goes. Everyone else is starting from zero again and the red boys have all of last year's data to pull from. New tires and aero regs sure, but Ferrari should be right up there from the start.
21 days to go.
| gtguy | 02-12-2005 08:48 PM |
Indeed...
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Latest News
Max urges Ferrari's rivals to up their game
Friday February 11 2005
Max Mosley has called on the Formula One teams to stop "whinging" and up their game if they are to topple Ferrari.
The Italian team have won the drivers' and constructors' championship double for the last five years thanks to Michael Schumacher's dominance, prompting some to call for new rules to slow them down.
But Mosley, president of world governing body the FIA, insists it is down to the rival teams to stop the Ferrari steamroller.
He said: "I wouldn't say Ferrari are killing the sport. What I would say is that Williams, McLaren, Renault and BAR are killing the sport because they are doing a rubbish job. It's not down to Ferrari to lose."
"What's worse is that they say we are helping Ferrari - if I could slow down Ferrari, and in particular Michael, I would."
"It's up to the engineers in the other teams to catch Ferrari."
"Instead of whinging about Ferrari's success, all they have to do is design a quick car and put a fast driver in it and all this nonsense will stop."
Mosley believes rival teams are hiding behind excuses after seasons of under-achievement.
Ferrari are widely believed to have the biggest budget in Formula One, but Mosley claims that is not actually the case.
He believes the budgets of McLaren or Williams added to the cash spent by respective engine suppliers Mercedes and BMW, easily outweigh the resources at Ferrari's disposal.
"One of the great fallacies in Formula One is that Ferrari have more money," he said.
"They have more sponsors but they have to pay for their own engines. Mercedes and BMW offer these for nothing."
"You go to BMW and the facilities are just awesome - Ferrari is like a cottage industry."
"I am sure the total budget, certainly of McLaren and Williams and I suspect BAR and Renault, is greater than Ferrari's to get two cars on the grid."
"You could put [Ferrari sporting director] Jean Todt in any of the top five teams the last few years and he would have done the same job."
Mosley concedes even with a raft of new rules for 2005, Formula One fans can still expect to see Schumacher and Ferrari among the winners.
However, he does not expect a repeat of Schumacher's runaway success last year and tipped two of the sport's young guns to spring a surprise.
"A bookmaker would say Schumacher [for the title] on past form," he said.
"I think Jenson Button is a very strong possibility and I think Fernando Alonso is also a very strong possibility."
"I would be very surprised if Michael won the first six races because the other teams know what they have to do."
Max urges Ferrari's rivals to up their game
Friday February 11 2005
Max Mosley has called on the Formula One teams to stop "whinging" and up their game if they are to topple Ferrari.
The Italian team have won the drivers' and constructors' championship double for the last five years thanks to Michael Schumacher's dominance, prompting some to call for new rules to slow them down.
But Mosley, president of world governing body the FIA, insists it is down to the rival teams to stop the Ferrari steamroller.
He said: "I wouldn't say Ferrari are killing the sport. What I would say is that Williams, McLaren, Renault and BAR are killing the sport because they are doing a rubbish job. It's not down to Ferrari to lose."
"What's worse is that they say we are helping Ferrari - if I could slow down Ferrari, and in particular Michael, I would."
"It's up to the engineers in the other teams to catch Ferrari."
"Instead of whinging about Ferrari's success, all they have to do is design a quick car and put a fast driver in it and all this nonsense will stop."
Mosley believes rival teams are hiding behind excuses after seasons of under-achievement.
Ferrari are widely believed to have the biggest budget in Formula One, but Mosley claims that is not actually the case.
He believes the budgets of McLaren or Williams added to the cash spent by respective engine suppliers Mercedes and BMW, easily outweigh the resources at Ferrari's disposal.
"One of the great fallacies in Formula One is that Ferrari have more money," he said.
"They have more sponsors but they have to pay for their own engines. Mercedes and BMW offer these for nothing."
"You go to BMW and the facilities are just awesome - Ferrari is like a cottage industry."
"I am sure the total budget, certainly of McLaren and Williams and I suspect BAR and Renault, is greater than Ferrari's to get two cars on the grid."
"You could put [Ferrari sporting director] Jean Todt in any of the top five teams the last few years and he would have done the same job."
Mosley concedes even with a raft of new rules for 2005, Formula One fans can still expect to see Schumacher and Ferrari among the winners.
However, he does not expect a repeat of Schumacher's runaway success last year and tipped two of the sport's young guns to spring a surprise.
"A bookmaker would say Schumacher [for the title] on past form," he said.
"I think Jenson Button is a very strong possibility and I think Fernando Alonso is also a very strong possibility."
"I would be very surprised if Michael won the first six races because the other teams know what they have to do."
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