| TyrannoSullyRex | 03-27-2003 02:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Its not actually 3 seperate cars, but 3 seperate TYPES of cars. 02 WRX 5spd, 02 WRX auto, etc etc.
So far it has 02 WRX 5spd on it. 03 WRX 5spd will be the 2nd car. I doubt we will be protesting many automatics :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, I thought it was three specific cars and went off the code or serial number or something off the ECU. Well then, no worries. Log some boost curves and put a bunch of them on the same graph. Of course I'll volunteer my car as stock baseline for any protests at nationals, but I'm sure it'll be sorted out by then.
[B]Its not actually 3 seperate cars, but 3 seperate TYPES of cars. 02 WRX 5spd, 02 WRX auto, etc etc.
So far it has 02 WRX 5spd on it. 03 WRX 5spd will be the 2nd car. I doubt we will be protesting many automatics :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, I thought it was three specific cars and went off the code or serial number or something off the ECU. Well then, no worries. Log some boost curves and put a bunch of them on the same graph. Of course I'll volunteer my car as stock baseline for any protests at nationals, but I'm sure it'll be sorted out by then.
| Davenow | 03-27-2003 04:28 PM |
wow LOL!!
�
�
Do you guys mind if us SM guys just back and laugh at your bickering?:rolleyes:
ECUtek IMHO is going to cause A LOT of problems this season.
If you can acutally trigger a map change with a hidden switch (rear defog or something) then there is NO way to tell if someone even HAS the ECUtek in his car. You can run the check on the ECU, it says "Hey! I am 100% stock untouched!" and then at the line the driver hits the defogger and picks up 30HP:mad:
ECUtek IMHO is going to cause A LOT of problems this season.
If you can acutally trigger a map change with a hidden switch (rear defog or something) then there is NO way to tell if someone even HAS the ECUtek in his car. You can run the check on the ECU, it says "Hey! I am 100% stock untouched!" and then at the line the driver hits the defogger and picks up 30HP:mad:
| Subdued | 03-27-2003 04:48 PM |
Re: wow LOL!!
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Davenow [/i]
[B]Do you guys mind if us SM guys just back and laugh at your bickering?:rolleyes:
ECUtek IMHO is going to cause A LOT of problems this season.
If you can acutally trigger a map change with a hidden switch (rear defog or something) then there is NO way to tell if someone even HAS the ECUtek in his car. You can run the check on the ECU, it says "Hey! I am 100% stock untouched!" and then at the line the driver hits the defogger and picks up 30HP:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]This will make life interesting for the stock classes also or any class where a boost map is required. Can this same scenario happen with the Audi's or Mini Coopers?
[B]Do you guys mind if us SM guys just back and laugh at your bickering?:rolleyes:
ECUtek IMHO is going to cause A LOT of problems this season.
If you can acutally trigger a map change with a hidden switch (rear defog or something) then there is NO way to tell if someone even HAS the ECUtek in his car. You can run the check on the ECU, it says "Hey! I am 100% stock untouched!" and then at the line the driver hits the defogger and picks up 30HP:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]This will make life interesting for the stock classes also or any class where a boost map is required. Can this same scenario happen with the Audi's or Mini Coopers?
| ChrisW | 03-27-2003 06:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zoomfactor [/i]
[B]Well with all the time and energy expended on this topic and the exhaust/cat discussions, I hope some of you Subaru pilots will make it worthwhile by winning most of the National events:devil:
I would hate to see all this time and effort bashed by the ITR's and MiniCooper S's:D [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: that would suck... However, the Mini cooper S has the same problem we do, forced induction. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]
[i]Originally posted by Jon [in CT][/i]
[B]I think, in the end, the rules will be interpreted to mean that all hardware associated with boost control must be unaltered, but ECU software may be freely updated. An important part of the boost control hardware is the restrictor in the boost line running from the turbo. It was my impression that, even after an ECU reflash, significantly higher-than-stock boost wouldn't be possible with the stock restrictor in place. It seems like a simple matter to inspect for this.[/B][/QUOTE]
I believe that is the intent of the rule. Like Dussander said, the boost seloniod does not control boost, only the wastegate. In fact, Vishnu recommends using the stock boost control hardware when re-flashing an ECU. The stage 0 kit does add a new peice to replace the stock restrictor, but that is easily detected on visual inspection. This new connector has a small hole in it to make the wastegate open a faction slower and allows a crisper wastegate response.
[B]Well with all the time and energy expended on this topic and the exhaust/cat discussions, I hope some of you Subaru pilots will make it worthwhile by winning most of the National events:devil:
I would hate to see all this time and effort bashed by the ITR's and MiniCooper S's:D [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: that would suck... However, the Mini cooper S has the same problem we do, forced induction. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]
[i]Originally posted by Jon [in CT][/i]
[B]I think, in the end, the rules will be interpreted to mean that all hardware associated with boost control must be unaltered, but ECU software may be freely updated. An important part of the boost control hardware is the restrictor in the boost line running from the turbo. It was my impression that, even after an ECU reflash, significantly higher-than-stock boost wouldn't be possible with the stock restrictor in place. It seems like a simple matter to inspect for this.[/B][/QUOTE]
I believe that is the intent of the rule. Like Dussander said, the boost seloniod does not control boost, only the wastegate. In fact, Vishnu recommends using the stock boost control hardware when re-flashing an ECU. The stage 0 kit does add a new peice to replace the stock restrictor, but that is easily detected on visual inspection. This new connector has a small hole in it to make the wastegate open a faction slower and allows a crisper wastegate response.
| ChrisW | 03-27-2003 06:27 PM |
Re: Re: wow LOL!!
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subdued [/i]
[B]This will make life interesting for the stock classes also or any class where a boost map is required. Can this same scenario happen with the Audi's or Mini Coopers? [/B][/QUOTE]
yes
[URL=http://www.goapr.com/Audi/products/ecu_upgrade_8ea418t.html]Audi & VW's answer to ECUTEK[/URL]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Davenow [/i]
[B]Do you guys mind if us SM guys just back and laugh at your bickering?:rolleyes:
ECUtek IMHO is going to cause A LOT of problems this season.
If you can acutally trigger a map change with a hidden switch (rear defog or something) then there is NO way to tell if someone even HAS the ECUtek in his car. You can run the check on the ECU, it says "Hey! I am 100% stock untouched!" and then at the line the driver hits the defogger and picks up 30HP:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
You don't have to run against any black supercharged E46 M3's, do ya? ;) [SIZE=1]like the SM national championship car 2 years running[/SIZE]
[B]This will make life interesting for the stock classes also or any class where a boost map is required. Can this same scenario happen with the Audi's or Mini Coopers? [/B][/QUOTE]
yes
[URL=http://www.goapr.com/Audi/products/ecu_upgrade_8ea418t.html]Audi & VW's answer to ECUTEK[/URL]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Davenow [/i]
[B]Do you guys mind if us SM guys just back and laugh at your bickering?:rolleyes:
ECUtek IMHO is going to cause A LOT of problems this season.
If you can acutally trigger a map change with a hidden switch (rear defog or something) then there is NO way to tell if someone even HAS the ECUtek in his car. You can run the check on the ECU, it says "Hey! I am 100% stock untouched!" and then at the line the driver hits the defogger and picks up 30HP:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
You don't have to run against any black supercharged E46 M3's, do ya? ;) [SIZE=1]like the SM national championship car 2 years running[/SIZE]
| Steve '02 WRX | 04-01-2003 10:19 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rankink [/i]
[B]See... Problems like tehse are why I decided to stay in stock class and not make teh jump to STX. Too much BS in my opinion.
K [/B][/QUOTE]
I think you have the same problem in stock class. How do you know someone hasn't made any ECU changes in stock? I think a lot of this stuff is going to be difficult to prove. My brother was asked to be on the PC at Nationals this year, I hope he said no. :)
[B]See... Problems like tehse are why I decided to stay in stock class and not make teh jump to STX. Too much BS in my opinion.
K [/B][/QUOTE]
I think you have the same problem in stock class. How do you know someone hasn't made any ECU changes in stock? I think a lot of this stuff is going to be difficult to prove. My brother was asked to be on the PC at Nationals this year, I hope he said no. :)
| Jaxx | 04-01-2003 10:41 AM |
[quote]There is anotehr issue here. Cobb is full of ****
There is no way that teh actual boost map can be read off of teh ECU. What CAN happen is teh car can be delta dashed and teh boost curve can be read. But teh actual boost map on a ECUtekked ECU CANNOT be read.
So teh issue still comes up. Run higher boost on track. Get in inpound, press teh defrost, and youre on teh stock boost map for testing.
How are you going to prevent THAT?
-Tom[/quote]
what the hell are you talking about
the ecu has two boost maps
compair the values in the tables to those of a stock tables voila .. if either table is changed bam you fail. easy less that 30 sec to test. the only other thing to check is that the stock connectors (3/16 vs 1/8) are in place
however you are going to need a differnt piece of software (unaviaiable) to do this as deltadash won't ..
cobb isn't using ecutek. he has done it himself
There is no way that teh actual boost map can be read off of teh ECU. What CAN happen is teh car can be delta dashed and teh boost curve can be read. But teh actual boost map on a ECUtekked ECU CANNOT be read.
So teh issue still comes up. Run higher boost on track. Get in inpound, press teh defrost, and youre on teh stock boost map for testing.
How are you going to prevent THAT?
-Tom[/quote]
what the hell are you talking about
the ecu has two boost maps
compair the values in the tables to those of a stock tables voila .. if either table is changed bam you fail. easy less that 30 sec to test. the only other thing to check is that the stock connectors (3/16 vs 1/8) are in place
however you are going to need a differnt piece of software (unaviaiable) to do this as deltadash won't ..
cobb isn't using ecutek. he has done it himself
| TyrannoSullyRex | 04-01-2003 11:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jaxx [/i]
[B]compair teh values in teh tables to those of a stock tables [/B][/QUOTE]
I hate to beat a dead horse here, but which stock table??
I think my suggestion is still a pretty good one, do a couple of delta dash logging runs and compare th***********e graph, th***********e graphed curve and data points should be very similar between all stock vehicles. Th***********en move teh graph up a hair at th***********e front end for cars with exhaust (as spoolup would be quicker) but th***********e curve should be essentially th***********e same.
Of course you could fool th***********e computer into thinking th***********ere was one boost value when it is really anoth***********er with a few well placed resistors or something. I don't know about this, just conjecture since it's all based on voltage delivered by th***********e intake meter.
So th***********e best bet is a calibrated common boost gauge.
wow, formatting all th***********e tehs is tiring..
[B]compair teh values in teh tables to those of a stock tables [/B][/QUOTE]
I hate to beat a dead horse here, but which stock table??
I think my suggestion is still a pretty good one, do a couple of delta dash logging runs and compare th***********e graph, th***********e graphed curve and data points should be very similar between all stock vehicles. Th***********en move teh graph up a hair at th***********e front end for cars with exhaust (as spoolup would be quicker) but th***********e curve should be essentially th***********e same.
Of course you could fool th***********e computer into thinking th***********ere was one boost value when it is really anoth***********er with a few well placed resistors or something. I don't know about this, just conjecture since it's all based on voltage delivered by th***********e intake meter.
So th***********e best bet is a calibrated common boost gauge.
wow, formatting all th***********e tehs is tiring..
| Jaxx | 04-01-2003 11:42 AM |
well there are what 2-3 versions of the 2002 ecu .. you would have to have the tables from those ecus (unless they are the same)
.....
[quote]few well placed resistors or something...intake meter[/quote]
that is an intersting idea.. if you placed a resistor in line with the map sensor you could have the stock boost map and the ecu would run higher boost
.....
[quote]few well placed resistors or something...intake meter[/quote]
that is an intersting idea.. if you placed a resistor in line with the map sensor you could have the stock boost map and the ecu would run higher boost
| TheWRX | 04-01-2003 11:57 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TyrannoSullyRex [/i]
[B]So th***********e best bet is a calibrated common boost gauge.[/B][/QUOTE]
This may help you to identify blatant cases of cheating, but I don't think it's good enough. As has been pointed out, boost can change as a side effect of legal mods (intake, exhaust).
[B]So th***********e best bet is a calibrated common boost gauge.[/B][/QUOTE]
This may help you to identify blatant cases of cheating, but I don't think it's good enough. As has been pointed out, boost can change as a side effect of legal mods (intake, exhaust).
| RiftsWRX | 04-01-2003 05:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Very easy. Do what shiv said. Run teh car and look at teh boost on a gauge. Then switch maps and check teh boost again. Same? Different? [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
As if I'd indulge anyone to drive >MY< car to the point of going to boost to prove it... :rolleyes:
I think "innocent till PROVEN guilty" comes to mind.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
[url]www.ProjectWRX.com[/url]
[B]Very easy. Do what shiv said. Run teh car and look at teh boost on a gauge. Then switch maps and check teh boost again. Same? Different? [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
As if I'd indulge anyone to drive >MY< car to the point of going to boost to prove it... :rolleyes:
I think "innocent till PROVEN guilty" comes to mind.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
[url]www.ProjectWRX.com[/url]
| WillRX | 04-02-2003 04:55 AM |
I just have one question....
Why the funk would you go to the trouble and expense of getting an Ecutek and then not changing your boost levels at all?
Call me stupid....
WillRx;)
Why the funk would you go to the trouble and expense of getting an Ecutek and then not changing your boost levels at all?
Call me stupid....
WillRx;)
| KC | 04-02-2003 07:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RiftsWRX [/i]
[B]
:lol:
As if I'd indulge anyone to drive >MY< car to the point of going to boost to prove it... :rolleyes:
I think "innocent till PROVEN guilty" comes to mind.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
[url]www.ProjectWRX.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]Jorge, while that would be great if it were the case, this is competition. What Tom is suggesting is a way around it before a protest even has to be filed.
I fully agree with the innocent until proven guilty. It's up to the protestor to prove you guilty if you're suspected of doing something that is beying the scope of the documented rules.
So really it can be settled one of 2 ways. Amicably before a formal protest (what tom was suggesting) or with the protest committe and posting of the bond.
Let me reiterate... this is competition. I would LOVE to have everyone be totally legal and believe that the case. But if you, or I, are BELIEVED to have something on the car that is BELIEVED to be against the rules, part of the competition is that you have (or I) to be receptive to the possibility protest. Once you get officially protested, theres ony two solutions.... You lose the protest or you win the protest. But as part of the protest, if filed, you MUST allow access to your car and driving it. If you decline, you lose the protest.
As Tom learned last year,... sometimes it's just part of the game. There are people that will 'push the envelope'. Not necessarily you, or anyone here... but there are people who will try to find a way around the rules to get the performance advantage.
--kC
[B]
:lol:
As if I'd indulge anyone to drive >MY< car to the point of going to boost to prove it... :rolleyes:
I think "innocent till PROVEN guilty" comes to mind.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
[url]www.ProjectWRX.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]Jorge, while that would be great if it were the case, this is competition. What Tom is suggesting is a way around it before a protest even has to be filed.
I fully agree with the innocent until proven guilty. It's up to the protestor to prove you guilty if you're suspected of doing something that is beying the scope of the documented rules.
So really it can be settled one of 2 ways. Amicably before a formal protest (what tom was suggesting) or with the protest committe and posting of the bond.
Let me reiterate... this is competition. I would LOVE to have everyone be totally legal and believe that the case. But if you, or I, are BELIEVED to have something on the car that is BELIEVED to be against the rules, part of the competition is that you have (or I) to be receptive to the possibility protest. Once you get officially protested, theres ony two solutions.... You lose the protest or you win the protest. But as part of the protest, if filed, you MUST allow access to your car and driving it. If you decline, you lose the protest.
As Tom learned last year,... sometimes it's just part of the game. There are people that will 'push the envelope'. Not necessarily you, or anyone here... but there are people who will try to find a way around the rules to get the performance advantage.
--kC
| Dussander | 04-02-2003 10:02 AM |
[QUOTE]Why the funk would you go to the trouble and expense of getting an Ecutek and then not changing your boost levels at all?[/QUOTE]
For the fuel and timing tuning. You also maintain all the stock ECU safe guards. Also, you don't get the partial throttle hesitation from a Unichip. With a different exhaust you *should* have some tuning. Because we run in STX, we can't touch the boost. Also, if you don't crank up the boost you can be a little more agressive with the timing and fuel.
For the fuel and timing tuning. You also maintain all the stock ECU safe guards. Also, you don't get the partial throttle hesitation from a Unichip. With a different exhaust you *should* have some tuning. Because we run in STX, we can't touch the boost. Also, if you don't crank up the boost you can be a little more agressive with the timing and fuel.
| sperry | 04-03-2003 12:17 AM |
Just out of curiosity, what class do you have to run in if you *want* to run modified boost levels?
--Scott (UniChiped Vishnu Stage 1)
--Scott (UniChiped Vishnu Stage 1)
| trhoppe | 04-03-2003 01:28 AM |
Street Modified would be the best one
-Tom
-Tom
| Davenow | 04-05-2003 10:44 AM |
Hey Sperry, come run SM with us and ignore all the drama going on in STX. :lol:
| ChrisW | 05-29-2003 10:02 PM |
[edit]
oh yeah... I recieved an email today from the SEB regaurding a rule clarification request on reprogramming our ECU's
below is the important part of the email.
[/edit]
[QUOTE]
Boost changes indirectly resulting from allowed modifications; inlet, exhaust, etc., are permissible, but directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls, either mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited. Competitors are allowed to modify ECU programming for fuel, timing, etc., but not the boost/turbo control programming; i.e., boost control map, bypass valve actuation, wastegate, boost safety and cutoff, etc., etc.. [/QUOTE]
So it looks like we can reprogram our ECU's as long as the stock boost map is maintained.
I know some of you had the vishnu reprogramming with his STX map... That map will need a few adjustments, sorry about that.
The bad side is you need adjustments, to your ECU reprogram. The good side is after you get these adjustments you will have more boost.
I still don't know how they will test to see if the boost map is changed. It may be as easy as somehow reading the stock boost parameters. Vishnu, like other vendors always encrypt the changes made to the ECU. A test could be done to see if any encryption was made to the boost map, if so then it has been altered.
I would like to know how many serious STX competitors are using the vishnu "STX" map Pm me if you are. I am going to work with Vishnu to develop a new map, but I have to warn you that now money is a serious issue, and I may not be able to address this issue right away. I hope to have this resolved before the fasttrack is released.
oh yeah... I recieved an email today from the SEB regaurding a rule clarification request on reprogramming our ECU's
below is the important part of the email.
[/edit]
[QUOTE]
Boost changes indirectly resulting from allowed modifications; inlet, exhaust, etc., are permissible, but directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls, either mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited. Competitors are allowed to modify ECU programming for fuel, timing, etc., but not the boost/turbo control programming; i.e., boost control map, bypass valve actuation, wastegate, boost safety and cutoff, etc., etc.. [/QUOTE]
So it looks like we can reprogram our ECU's as long as the stock boost map is maintained.
I know some of you had the vishnu reprogramming with his STX map... That map will need a few adjustments, sorry about that.
The bad side is you need adjustments, to your ECU reprogram. The good side is after you get these adjustments you will have more boost.
I still don't know how they will test to see if the boost map is changed. It may be as easy as somehow reading the stock boost parameters. Vishnu, like other vendors always encrypt the changes made to the ECU. A test could be done to see if any encryption was made to the boost map, if so then it has been altered.
I would like to know how many serious STX competitors are using the vishnu "STX" map Pm me if you are. I am going to work with Vishnu to develop a new map, but I have to warn you that now money is a serious issue, and I may not be able to address this issue right away. I hope to have this resolved before the fasttrack is released.
| ride5000 | 06-17-2003 03:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B] What we're worried about is someone holding 14-15psi until redline instead of 10 and 14-15psi in 1st instead of 10.
[/B][/QUOTE]
what's interesting here is that there are stories circulating of people with BONE STOCK cars getting close to full (14 psi) boost in 1st and 2nd gears.
and don't worry about holding 14-15 psi to redline. with the stock turbo, it's absolutely impossible.
jm2c
ken
[B] What we're worried about is someone holding 14-15psi until redline instead of 10 and 14-15psi in 1st instead of 10.
[/B][/QUOTE]
what's interesting here is that there are stories circulating of people with BONE STOCK cars getting close to full (14 psi) boost in 1st and 2nd gears.
and don't worry about holding 14-15 psi to redline. with the stock turbo, it's absolutely impossible.
jm2c
ken
| zosima | 09-17-2003 12:03 AM |
B U M P
yes, thread has been dead for several months, has anything come of this? Any protests at nats? Did anyone run EcuTek at Nats???
Also... no matter what, an EcuTek whose boost map differs IN EITHER MAP is illegal? Or just what you use in the event?
Inquiring minds want to know :D.
yes, thread has been dead for several months, has anything come of this? Any protests at nats? Did anyone run EcuTek at Nats???
Also... no matter what, an EcuTek whose boost map differs IN EITHER MAP is illegal? Or just what you use in the event?
Inquiring minds want to know :D.
| trhoppe | 09-17-2003 12:16 AM |
The dual boost map ecutek is ILLEGAL in STX class. The single map ECUtek is legal IMHO as long as the boost map is not modified in any way at all.
I deltadashed a few WRXs at nationals and we found all the ones so far to be running a legal boost map that was exactly the same as the stock one.
Honestly, its totally up in the air. I don't know how a protest would cut it, but if you have a single map ECUtek with a stock boost curve and spool times, you should be ok.
-Tom
I deltadashed a few WRXs at nationals and we found all the ones so far to be running a legal boost map that was exactly the same as the stock one.
Honestly, its totally up in the air. I don't know how a protest would cut it, but if you have a single map ECUtek with a stock boost curve and spool times, you should be ok.
-Tom
| ChrisW | 09-17-2003 09:18 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]The dual boost map ecutek is ILLEGAL in STX class. The single map ECUtek is legal IMHO as long as the boost map is not modified in any way at all.
I deltadashed a few WRXs at nationals and we found all the ones so far to be running a legal boost map that was exactly the same as the stock one.
Honestly, its totally up in the air. I don't know how a protest would cut it, but if you have a single map ECUtek with a stock boost curve and spool times, you should be ok.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
your problem will be actually [i]finding[/i] a dealer that will take the time to program your ECU with a "legal" ECUTEK... (I.E. load tuning computer with older ECUTEK tuning software just for you)
sigh... this kind of sucks, but was not totally unexpected.
[B]The dual boost map ecutek is ILLEGAL in STX class. The single map ECUtek is legal IMHO as long as the boost map is not modified in any way at all.
I deltadashed a few WRXs at nationals and we found all the ones so far to be running a legal boost map that was exactly the same as the stock one.
Honestly, its totally up in the air. I don't know how a protest would cut it, but if you have a single map ECUtek with a stock boost curve and spool times, you should be ok.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
your problem will be actually [i]finding[/i] a dealer that will take the time to program your ECU with a "legal" ECUTEK... (I.E. load tuning computer with older ECUTEK tuning software just for you)
sigh... this kind of sucks, but was not totally unexpected.
| trhoppe | 09-17-2003 09:24 AM |
[QUOTE](I.E. load tuning computer with older ECUTEK tuning software just for you)[/QUOTE] Well if they want your business then they will do it. If not, then they are not worth dealing with IMHO.
Since Vishnu programmed mine and does do a legal STX map, "finding" a dealer shouldn't be a problem :)
-Tom
Since Vishnu programmed mine and does do a legal STX map, "finding" a dealer shouldn't be a problem :)
-Tom
| Dussander | 09-17-2003 01:36 PM |
Tom, did you make any changes to the map for the header?
| TyrannoSullyRex | 09-17-2003 02:15 PM |
Tom, KC, were ya'll running the "illegal" header? You know of what I speak.
| KC | 09-17-2003 03:02 PM |
I was running the Stone Racing header/uppipe. Why would it be considered illegal?
--KC
--KC
| MNbiker | 09-17-2003 04:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TyrannoSullyRex [/i]
[B]Tom, KC, were ya'll running the "illegal" header? You know of what I speak. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not sure where you're coming from on this - headers are clearly STX-legal, and most non-Subies at Nationals had them installed.:rolleyes:
[B]Tom, KC, were ya'll running the "illegal" header? You know of what I speak. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not sure where you're coming from on this - headers are clearly STX-legal, and most non-Subies at Nationals had them installed.:rolleyes:
| Dussander | 09-17-2003 05:10 PM |
I'm guessing he meant the whole, warps the bottom undercarriage debate that went on the Street Touring mailing list.
[COLOR=silver][SIZE=1]me sucks at the spellingz[/SIZE] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver][SIZE=1]me sucks at the spellingz[/SIZE] [/COLOR]
| ChrisW | 09-17-2003 05:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]
Not sure where you're coming from on this - headers are clearly STX-legal, and most non-Subies at Nationals had them installed.:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
The STX rules state that headers must meet 49 state emissions. Since the stone racing header deletes the pre-cat, it's highly doubhtful that it could qualify for the federal emissions requirements, certainly not here in CA or NY.
So technicallly speaking, the header is illegal. ;) But, the new Nissan Sentra's with their rather stupid pre-cat in the header have the same problems that we do (although we can't suck the pre-cat back into the head :eek: )
[B]
Not sure where you're coming from on this - headers are clearly STX-legal, and most non-Subies at Nationals had them installed.:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
The STX rules state that headers must meet 49 state emissions. Since the stone racing header deletes the pre-cat, it's highly doubhtful that it could qualify for the federal emissions requirements, certainly not here in CA or NY.
So technicallly speaking, the header is illegal. ;) But, the new Nissan Sentra's with their rather stupid pre-cat in the header have the same problems that we do (although we can't suck the pre-cat back into the head :eek: )
| MNbiker | 09-17-2003 05:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]The STX rules state that headers must meet 49 state emissions. Since the stone racing header deletes the pre-cat, it's highly doubhtful that it could qualify for the federal emissions requirements, certainly not here in CA or NY.[/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, this isn't a function of the header. Virtually all aftermarket uppipes delete the pre-cat. The header has nothing to do with it. FWIW - I'm pretty certain any decently tuned WRX with a catless uppipe WILL pass 49 state emissions, as the pre-cat is mostly there for initial start-up and standard tests measure the car after it's already started and warmed up.
-Steve
[B]The STX rules state that headers must meet 49 state emissions. Since the stone racing header deletes the pre-cat, it's highly doubhtful that it could qualify for the federal emissions requirements, certainly not here in CA or NY.[/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, this isn't a function of the header. Virtually all aftermarket uppipes delete the pre-cat. The header has nothing to do with it. FWIW - I'm pretty certain any decently tuned WRX with a catless uppipe WILL pass 49 state emissions, as the pre-cat is mostly there for initial start-up and standard tests measure the car after it's already started and warmed up.
-Steve
| TyrannoSullyRex | 09-17-2003 05:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dussander [/i]
[B]I'm guessing he ment the whole, warps the bottom undercaridge(sp?) debate that went on the Street Touring mailing list. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what I meant.
[B]I'm guessing he ment the whole, warps the bottom undercaridge(sp?) debate that went on the Street Touring mailing list. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what I meant.
| trhoppe | 09-17-2003 05:46 PM |
1) That was a crap debate and totally pointless. Every car at nationals will have something bent or streched or deformed because of "legal" mods
2) The rules specifically state that you can remove all cats and replace them with 1.
-Tom
2) The rules specifically state that you can remove all cats and replace them with 1.
-Tom
| Dussander | 09-17-2003 05:51 PM |
[QUOTE]Tom, did you make any changes to the map for the header?[/QUOTE]
bump
bump
| TyrannoSullyRex | 09-17-2003 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]1) That was a crap debate and totally pointless. Every car at nationals will have something bent or streched or deformed because of "legal" mods
2) The rules specifically state that you can remove all cats and replace them with 1.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
1) I had a good time laughing at it.
2) I know.
The reason I asked is I looked at KCs header (when it was up on two wheels after day one) and it didn't seem to hang down as low as everyone was saying it did, I was wondering if it was the header in question.
[B]1) That was a crap debate and totally pointless. Every car at nationals will have something bent or streched or deformed because of "legal" mods
2) The rules specifically state that you can remove all cats and replace them with 1.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
1) I had a good time laughing at it.
2) I know.
The reason I asked is I looked at KCs header (when it was up on two wheels after day one) and it didn't seem to hang down as low as everyone was saying it did, I was wondering if it was the header in question.
| trhoppe | 09-17-2003 06:44 PM |
[QUOTE]Tom, did you make any changes to the map for the header?[/QUOTE] I've never dynoed the car, so this is a "regular" STX map
-Tom
-Tom
| TurbojonLS | 09-17-2003 07:40 PM |
I hate to beat a dead horse or start this whole thing up again, but I have a fairly basic n00b question. In other forms of racing, specifically USTCC, turbo'd cars are req'd to run a boost telltale that is basically an underhood peak hold boost gauge. While this obviously wouldn't do anything for any non-peak gains, it would make it easier to tell if someone's boost had increased, and could be used as a starting point for a more serious look at the car. My question is why isn't this used/required in any of the "no boost changes allowed" autocross classes? Is it mostly b/c mods are generally self governed?
| trhoppe | 09-18-2003 12:59 AM |
[QUOTE]Is it mostly b/c mods are generally self governed?[/QUOTE] Exactly................
-Tom
-Tom
| zosima | 09-19-2003 10:49 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]The dual boost map ecutek is ILLEGAL in STX class. [/B][/QUOTE]
Darn... I spend a couple days traveling and the thread is already dead. One point of concern for me: doesn't the stock ECU have 2 maps... regular and limp home. This is just me guessing, but I would think the EcuTek reuses the limp home map. Anyways, at nationals were you checking both maps?
Anyways, I my intent wasn't purely to open a can of worms here.... can someone tell me the procedure for requesting a clarification? Would anyone want to help me in the process, because I would be pretty much clueless (and very bad at interpretting rules)? I will submit the fee, if it is reasonable... I would really like to have this hammered out before I spend $$$ on an ECU/tune.
[B]The dual boost map ecutek is ILLEGAL in STX class. [/B][/QUOTE]
Darn... I spend a couple days traveling and the thread is already dead. One point of concern for me: doesn't the stock ECU have 2 maps... regular and limp home. This is just me guessing, but I would think the EcuTek reuses the limp home map. Anyways, at nationals were you checking both maps?
Anyways, I my intent wasn't purely to open a can of worms here.... can someone tell me the procedure for requesting a clarification? Would anyone want to help me in the process, because I would be pretty much clueless (and very bad at interpretting rules)? I will submit the fee, if it is reasonable... I would really like to have this hammered out before I spend $$$ on an ECU/tune.
| trhoppe | 09-19-2003 11:03 AM |
[QUOTE] Anyways, at nationals were you checking both maps?[/QUOTE] None of the cars I checked had dual maps. If they HAD dual maps, they would have been ILLEGAL
-Tom
-Tom
| ChrisW | 09-19-2003 11:46 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B] None of the cars I checked had dual maps. If they HAD dual maps, they would have been ILLEGAL
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
duel boost maps are illegal. However, if you have selectable maps for ignition or fuel, you should be OK. I have heard of this done.
If I am wrong, someone will have to quote specific rules that state that multiple maps for allowed modifications (I.E ignition and or fuel maps) are illegal
Anyhow, as Tom already pointed out, the map selection can be hidden, altered by the tuner which makes this prone to protest.
[B] None of the cars I checked had dual maps. If they HAD dual maps, they would have been ILLEGAL
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
duel boost maps are illegal. However, if you have selectable maps for ignition or fuel, you should be OK. I have heard of this done.
If I am wrong, someone will have to quote specific rules that state that multiple maps for allowed modifications (I.E ignition and or fuel maps) are illegal
Anyhow, as Tom already pointed out, the map selection can be hidden, altered by the tuner which makes this prone to protest.
| trhoppe | 09-19-2003 11:53 AM |
[QUOTE]However, if you have selectable maps for ignition or fuel, you should be OK. I have heard of this done.[/QUOTE] Yes, that would be legal....
[QUOTE]the map selection can be hidden, altered by the tuner which makes this prone to protest.[/QUOTE] It can be hidden from view, but it CANNOT be hidden from deltadash. DD can tell whether you have the dual map option installed, it can also tell WHAT parts of that option you have installed.
-Tom
[QUOTE]the map selection can be hidden, altered by the tuner which makes this prone to protest.[/QUOTE] It can be hidden from view, but it CANNOT be hidden from deltadash. DD can tell whether you have the dual map option installed, it can also tell WHAT parts of that option you have installed.
-Tom
| zosima | 09-19-2003 05:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B] Yes, that would be legal....
[/B][/QUOTE]
Okay... so was my "guess" about one map being a limp-home map correct? Does that mean you could get an EcuTek 2.0 if BOTH boost maps were the same as stock? Thanks for helping clear this up Tom & ChrisW... hopefully I am getting closer to deciding my ECU/engine tune :)
[B] Yes, that would be legal....
[/B][/QUOTE]
Okay... so was my "guess" about one map being a limp-home map correct? Does that mean you could get an EcuTek 2.0 if BOTH boost maps were the same as stock? Thanks for helping clear this up Tom & ChrisW... hopefully I am getting closer to deciding my ECU/engine tune :)
| trhoppe | 09-19-2003 05:09 PM |
NO, if you got a dual map ECUtek WITHOUT dual map boost, you would be OK. The deltadash SW could tell if you had dual map boost, and it is possible to get one with a single boost map, but dual timing and fuel maps.
-Tom
-Tom
| zosima | 09-19-2003 05:39 PM |
Glad to hear I can get an EcuTek 2.0 tune... thanks for the help Tom!!!
| MNbiker | 09-19-2003 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]NO, if you got a dual map ECUtek WITHOUT dual map boost, you would be OK. The deltadash SW could tell if you had dual map boost, and it is possible to get one with a single boost map, but dual timing and fuel maps.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
OK, since Tom let the cat out of the bag....
This is indeed possible - in fact, my car currently has an ECUtek reflash with stock boost and User Tune for timing & fuel. The work was done by Tuan at GRD in Naperville, IL. Tom verified it's legality with DD at Nationals.
If you decide to go this route A) make sure you find a tuner that knows what he's doing, so you don't end up with an illegal reflash and B) make sure you understand the implications of the variables in User Tune, before you start messing around with them.
-Steve
[B]NO, if you got a dual map ECUtek WITHOUT dual map boost, you would be OK. The deltadash SW could tell if you had dual map boost, and it is possible to get one with a single boost map, but dual timing and fuel maps.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
OK, since Tom let the cat out of the bag....
This is indeed possible - in fact, my car currently has an ECUtek reflash with stock boost and User Tune for timing & fuel. The work was done by Tuan at GRD in Naperville, IL. Tom verified it's legality with DD at Nationals.
If you decide to go this route A) make sure you find a tuner that knows what he's doing, so you don't end up with an illegal reflash and B) make sure you understand the implications of the variables in User Tune, before you start messing around with them.
-Steve
| briank | 09-20-2003 08:45 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rankink [/i]
[B]See... Problems like these are why I decided to stay in stock class and not make the jump to STX. Too much BS in my opinion.
K [/B][/QUOTE]
What makes you think people in stock class aren't cheating and using a reflashed ECU? Its sounds like its pretty difficult to detect whether you have had your car ECUTEK'd seeing as there are no new or modified parts on the car. Someone could easily sneak a reflashed car into stock class.
Of course I'm sure this doesn't happen at the national level.
-BrianK
[B]See... Problems like these are why I decided to stay in stock class and not make the jump to STX. Too much BS in my opinion.
K [/B][/QUOTE]
What makes you think people in stock class aren't cheating and using a reflashed ECU? Its sounds like its pretty difficult to detect whether you have had your car ECUTEK'd seeing as there are no new or modified parts on the car. Someone could easily sneak a reflashed car into stock class.
Of course I'm sure this doesn't happen at the national level.
-BrianK
| KC | 09-20-2003 09:04 AM |
Can they sneak one? Yes they can and this is of big concern to many other competitors.
Any time someone has a turbo car in a stock class, there'll always be suspicions about upping boost.
Tom and my car are set up almost the same, with almost the same exhaust and power mods and we both run stock boost.
His car was making around 205 hp to the wheels according to the deltadash.
Now here's the thing... I'm running a STOCK ECU in my car, and according to the deltadash software, (using the same set of tests in the same conditions as Tom's car... and others at the time) I'm making 202 hp to the wheels.
So what does this have to do with stock? Unless the car has upped boost, HP gains are NEGLIGIBLE with an Ecutek on a car that doesn't increase boost through electronic or mechanical means.
The way to tell if a Stock WRX is running this is to slap a tattletale boost gauge (if they don't have one) and go do some runs, or plug a deltadash on it. If they run more than 14psi, they're cheating. I think most cars only run boost in 1st gear up to 8-9psi.
So if they want to spend $800 on 1-2 hp in stock, then that can be beaten by driving better... let them. Ecutek in a stock car will do NOTHING to increase HP unless they up the boost.
--kC
Any time someone has a turbo car in a stock class, there'll always be suspicions about upping boost.
Tom and my car are set up almost the same, with almost the same exhaust and power mods and we both run stock boost.
His car was making around 205 hp to the wheels according to the deltadash.
Now here's the thing... I'm running a STOCK ECU in my car, and according to the deltadash software, (using the same set of tests in the same conditions as Tom's car... and others at the time) I'm making 202 hp to the wheels.
So what does this have to do with stock? Unless the car has upped boost, HP gains are NEGLIGIBLE with an Ecutek on a car that doesn't increase boost through electronic or mechanical means.
The way to tell if a Stock WRX is running this is to slap a tattletale boost gauge (if they don't have one) and go do some runs, or plug a deltadash on it. If they run more than 14psi, they're cheating. I think most cars only run boost in 1st gear up to 8-9psi.
So if they want to spend $800 on 1-2 hp in stock, then that can be beaten by driving better... let them. Ecutek in a stock car will do NOTHING to increase HP unless they up the boost.
--kC
| trhoppe | 09-20-2003 09:42 AM |
I was going to keep those HP #s shhhh dammit :lol: :lol:
Since we're not, two other ECUtek cars ALSO made 205hp and 205trq. All at the same RPMs as well. Those cars also had the same full mods as we do. All on the same exact strech of road, using a dead on weight, and the same gear and settings. Also, all at the same weather.
Two out of the Three ECUtek cars were NOT dynoed, but the 3rd one was and made the same HP as the not dynoed ones. All were 3hp and 3trq more then teh keif
-Tom
Since we're not, two other ECUtek cars ALSO made 205hp and 205trq. All at the same RPMs as well. Those cars also had the same full mods as we do. All on the same exact strech of road, using a dead on weight, and the same gear and settings. Also, all at the same weather.
Two out of the Three ECUtek cars were NOT dynoed, but the 3rd one was and made the same HP as the not dynoed ones. All were 3hp and 3trq more then teh keif
-Tom
| zosima | 09-20-2003 03:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Unless the car has upped boost, HP gains are NEGLIGIBLE with an Ecutek on a car that doesn't increase boost through electronic or mechanical means.[/B][/QUOTE]
Wow... was not expecting that. Thanks for the info!!!
Back to the drawing board :confused:
[B]Unless the car has upped boost, HP gains are NEGLIGIBLE with an Ecutek on a car that doesn't increase boost through electronic or mechanical means.[/B][/QUOTE]
Wow... was not expecting that. Thanks for the info!!!
Back to the drawing board :confused:
| MNbiker | 09-20-2003 11:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B].....Now here's the thing... I'm running a STOCK ECU in my car, and according to the deltadash software, (using the same set of tests in the same conditions as Tom's car... and others at the time) I'm making 202 hp to the wheels.
So what does this have to do with stock? Unless the car has upped boost, HP gains are NEGLIGIBLE with an Ecutek on a car that doesn't increase boost through electronic or mechanical means.......[/B][/QUOTE]
One important fact is missing from this equation - KC's car has a cold air intake. It's my suspicion that the reason his car is making similar horsepower to the reflashed cars is that the intake is leaning out his fuel mixture. The primary avenue for a reflash to make more power on a WRX without touching boost is to...you guessed it - lean out the fuel mixture.
The primary reason I got a reflash and dyno tune (with wideband 02 sensor) was to ensure that any power gains I get are predictable & safe for the engine. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any DD logs from KC's vehicle - it might be fine across all rpm's, it might not. And to be honest, DD might not be very useful without a wideband O2 sensor, as the stock 02 sensor has limited sensitivity.
Just my $.02
-Steve
p.s. the other reason to get a reflash involves 100 octane fuels. I'm still working on optimizing that piece of the puzzle.
[B].....Now here's the thing... I'm running a STOCK ECU in my car, and according to the deltadash software, (using the same set of tests in the same conditions as Tom's car... and others at the time) I'm making 202 hp to the wheels.
So what does this have to do with stock? Unless the car has upped boost, HP gains are NEGLIGIBLE with an Ecutek on a car that doesn't increase boost through electronic or mechanical means.......[/B][/QUOTE]
One important fact is missing from this equation - KC's car has a cold air intake. It's my suspicion that the reason his car is making similar horsepower to the reflashed cars is that the intake is leaning out his fuel mixture. The primary avenue for a reflash to make more power on a WRX without touching boost is to...you guessed it - lean out the fuel mixture.
The primary reason I got a reflash and dyno tune (with wideband 02 sensor) was to ensure that any power gains I get are predictable & safe for the engine. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any DD logs from KC's vehicle - it might be fine across all rpm's, it might not. And to be honest, DD might not be very useful without a wideband O2 sensor, as the stock 02 sensor has limited sensitivity.
Just my $.02
-Steve
p.s. the other reason to get a reflash involves 100 octane fuels. I'm still working on optimizing that piece of the puzzle.
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