| trhoppe | 03-25-2003 11:30 AM |
Good/Bad news for STX people *ECUtek info*
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Good if you do NOT have an ECUtek. Bad if you DO have an ECUtek. Its pretty much "officially" illegal now.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335146[/url]
Read this thread, anyone with an ECUtek can now change ecu values on the fly. Basically this DEFINETLY makes the ECUtek illegal in an STX car, and knowing this I will protest every single STX car that has an ECUtek.
The reason I wasnt going to protest an ECUtekked car before, was that you had to run the map that was burned onto the ECU. Now you can change to a high boost map, then on the way back to impound, you can change to a low boost map with the press of the throttle.
Just a heads up and warning. Any car that is fast, but does not have a unichip will be protested by me :) No hard feelings.
-Tom
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335146[/url]
Read this thread, anyone with an ECUtek can now change ecu values on the fly. Basically this DEFINETLY makes the ECUtek illegal in an STX car, and knowing this I will protest every single STX car that has an ECUtek.
The reason I wasnt going to protest an ECUtekked car before, was that you had to run the map that was burned onto the ECU. Now you can change to a high boost map, then on the way back to impound, you can change to a low boost map with the press of the throttle.
Just a heads up and warning. Any car that is fast, but does not have a unichip will be protested by me :) No hard feelings.
-Tom
| Subie Gal | 03-25-2003 11:31 AM |
but...
[i]how[/i] would anyone know if you DID have ECUtek?
:)
Jamie [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url] [img]http://www.baneverything.org/pictures/rally.gif[/img]
[i]how[/i] would anyone know if you DID have ECUtek?
:)
Jamie [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url] [img]http://www.baneverything.org/pictures/rally.gif[/img]
| trhoppe | 03-25-2003 11:34 AM |
Very easy. Do what shiv said. Run the car and look at the boost on a gauge. Then switch maps and check the boost again. Same? Different?
| KC | 03-25-2003 12:24 PM |
Because it has the capability, it will be protested. One other thing to note, I suspect you can set up any kind of parameters to 'trigger', not only the rear defogger, but you can change it to anything or any sequence.
Not good. Not good at all.
[QUOTE]how would anyone know if you DID have ECUtek?[/QUOTE][Wringing hand together]We have our ways. Muhhahahaha![/Wringing] :devil:
This isn't going to go over too lightly in the STX community. There's going to be protests... and protests, and protests some more.
--kC
Not good. Not good at all.
[QUOTE]how would anyone know if you DID have ECUtek?[/QUOTE][Wringing hand together]We have our ways. Muhhahahaha![/Wringing] :devil:
This isn't going to go over too lightly in the STX community. There's going to be protests... and protests, and protests some more.
--kC
| STX_REX | 03-25-2003 12:32 PM |
Or just listen for the wailing throttle in neutral as they return to the stageing area.
"Also nifty is the user-definable dual map feature which allows the user to design and toggle between a valet map, race gas map, fuel economy map, etc,. by flooring the throttle while pressing the rear defogger switch. This can even be done while driving (no need to key on/off)."
"Also nifty is the user-definable dual map feature which allows the user to design and toggle between a valet map, race gas map, fuel economy map, etc,. by flooring the throttle while pressing the rear defogger switch. This can even be done while driving (no need to key on/off)."
| Subie Gal | 03-25-2003 12:46 PM |
just curious.. as this is something that comes up in rally too :)
when protesting, you'd have to PROVE that they have ecutek....
so... how do you guys plan on going about doing this?
Jamie
when protesting, you'd have to PROVE that they have ecutek....
so... how do you guys plan on going about doing this?
Jamie
| trhoppe | 03-25-2003 12:54 PM |
Well not really. In autox, specifically STX class rules, it states that you cannot touch the boost control in any way.
All we have to prove is that they have modified the boost controller in any way. We don't have to prove that they have an ecutek or anything like that. We just have to prove that they have done *something* to their ECU so they are getting higher boost then otherwise.
Thats a LOT easier.
-Tom
All we have to prove is that they have modified the boost controller in any way. We don't have to prove that they have an ecutek or anything like that. We just have to prove that they have done *something* to their ECU so they are getting higher boost then otherwise.
Thats a LOT easier.
-Tom
| driggity | 03-25-2003 01:02 PM |
Well, since the regular ECUTEK has the ability to change the boost map and you guys seemed to think that you could have documentation that said your boost map was unchanged (if I remember correctly) I don't see what the huge issue is. I'm sure you could get an ECU remapped without the ability to change maps. You could then have something that stated this. I just don't see how this would be different than getting an ECU remapped without touching the boost map.
| trhoppe | 03-25-2003 01:07 PM |
What youre not seeing, is that only the people who were running the then "borderline illegal" ECUtek said they could get by with "documentation". All of us who were ready to protest ECUteks, said that documentation is bs. Documentation is still BS.
I could have a you a notarized document signed by George Bush that Im running stock boost. Then after obtaining that document I would go and modify the boost. I end up with a document that says Im running stock boost and Im actually running higher boost :rolleyes:
-Tom
I could have a you a notarized document signed by George Bush that Im running stock boost. Then after obtaining that document I would go and modify the boost. I end up with a document that says Im running stock boost and Im actually running higher boost :rolleyes:
-Tom
| driggity | 03-25-2003 01:19 PM |
Ok, I thought you guys were saying that the documentation would be enough but I guess you were on the other side. And of course you could get a notarized document and then change the boost map. You could do lots of things to cheat if you really wanted to. For example, take an exhaust with a single cat and then knock out everything in the cat section. I doubt people regularly get protested and checked to see if their cat is actually there.
I guess I just don't see how this makes the ECUtek more illegal than it was before. If documentation was bs before then it still is now. If it wasn't before then I don't see why it isn't now.
I guess I just don't see how this makes the ECUtek more illegal than it was before. If documentation was bs before then it still is now. If it wasn't before then I don't see why it isn't now.
| teiva-boy | 03-25-2003 01:30 PM |
I think you guys are poor losers :P :lol:
| KC | 03-25-2003 02:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]Ok, I thought you guys were saying that the documentation would be enough but I guess you were on the other side. And of course you could get a notarized document and then change the boost map. You could do lots of things to cheat if you really wanted to. For example, take an exhaust with a single cat and then knock out everything in the cat section. I doubt people regularly get protested and checked to see if their cat is actually there.
I guess I just don't see how this makes the ECUtek more illegal than it was before. If documentation was bs before then it still is now. If it wasn't before then I don't see why it isn't now. [/B][/QUOTE]This issue THEN was if Shiv said boost wasn't touched then MAYBE it could make it by a protest committee with the proper documentation.
However, with the advent of the delta dash being able to afford the user to change parameters at whim, before during or after an event, ANYONE can change the boost levels. That changes things. I would trust Shiv to be honest, also with the guys on this list, but what about the guys with WRXs that AREN'T on this list that would have no qualms about upping the boost a pound or two? What do you say to that?
[B]Ok, I thought you guys were saying that the documentation would be enough but I guess you were on the other side. And of course you could get a notarized document and then change the boost map. You could do lots of things to cheat if you really wanted to. For example, take an exhaust with a single cat and then knock out everything in the cat section. I doubt people regularly get protested and checked to see if their cat is actually there.
I guess I just don't see how this makes the ECUtek more illegal than it was before. If documentation was bs before then it still is now. If it wasn't before then I don't see why it isn't now. [/B][/QUOTE]This issue THEN was if Shiv said boost wasn't touched then MAYBE it could make it by a protest committee with the proper documentation.
However, with the advent of the delta dash being able to afford the user to change parameters at whim, before during or after an event, ANYONE can change the boost levels. That changes things. I would trust Shiv to be honest, also with the guys on this list, but what about the guys with WRXs that AREN'T on this list that would have no qualms about upping the boost a pound or two? What do you say to that?
| MNbiker | 03-25-2003 02:23 PM |
sure glad I went with an old-school Unichip!;)
IMHO - I agree w/Tom that the newest version of EcuTek changes the picture significantly. With the ability to change boost mapping on the fly, the new EcuTek really isn't any different than having a manual boost controller or a UTEC - both of which are clearly illegal in STX & ESP.
-Steve
IMHO - I agree w/Tom that the newest version of EcuTek changes the picture significantly. With the ability to change boost mapping on the fly, the new EcuTek really isn't any different than having a manual boost controller or a UTEC - both of which are clearly illegal in STX & ESP.
-Steve
| Dussander | 03-25-2003 02:30 PM |
Well, I better go clean off the "Vishnu" crap off the bottom of my ECU. Then bring on the protests. My boost is stock or lower.
| ChrisW | 03-25-2003 02:43 PM |
To prove that the ECUTEC is illegal you would have to prove that your a legal owner of delta dash. Anyhow I don't think this is a problem. We are already allowed to use a reprogrammed ECU, what does it matter when it is reprogrammed?
I can see this being a problem if your reprogramming on the fly while driving. But that is more of a safety issue, and your probably breaking a few other rules by having loose items like laptops flying around the cabin :lol: What's next? are the rivits going to start pop out of the floor panel? :rolleyes:
what does it matter if I reprogram the ECU or some tuner does it? How is that any different than some guy changing the timing on the distributer or leaning out the carb between runs?
[list=1][*]The street touring rules 17.10.1 states "Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters may not be altered.[*]If you use a S-AFC you can alter the signals on the fly as well. the S-AFC is already perfectly legal in STS and STX.[/list=1]
I can see this being a problem if your reprogramming on the fly while driving. But that is more of a safety issue, and your probably breaking a few other rules by having loose items like laptops flying around the cabin :lol: What's next? are the rivits going to start pop out of the floor panel? :rolleyes:
what does it matter if I reprogram the ECU or some tuner does it? How is that any different than some guy changing the timing on the distributer or leaning out the carb between runs?
[list=1][*]The street touring rules 17.10.1 states "Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters may not be altered.[*]If you use a S-AFC you can alter the signals on the fly as well. the S-AFC is already perfectly legal in STS and STX.[/list=1]
| trhoppe | 03-25-2003 03:17 PM |
But a reprogrammed ECU [b]CANNOT[/b] modify your boost levels.
If you would have read that other thread, you would have noticed that the new version of the ECUtek has two different USER SELECTABLE maps. You don't need to have a laptop, you need to be able to touch the gas to the floor while depressing the defrost button, to be able to set your boost higher.
Don't worry. If you have an ECUtek and your car appears faster then normal, you'll get protested, and you won't be able to talk your way out of it ;)
[QUOTE]Well, I better go clean off the "Vishnu" crap off the bottom of my ECU. Then bring on the protests. My boost is stock or lower.[/QUOTE] Dussander, don't take this next comment personally its said to make a point. Oh really? Do you have stock boost on one map and 17psi on another map? You could have just switched to the stock map when you pulled into inpound for all I know.
-Tom
If you would have read that other thread, you would have noticed that the new version of the ECUtek has two different USER SELECTABLE maps. You don't need to have a laptop, you need to be able to touch the gas to the floor while depressing the defrost button, to be able to set your boost higher.
Don't worry. If you have an ECUtek and your car appears faster then normal, you'll get protested, and you won't be able to talk your way out of it ;)
[QUOTE]Well, I better go clean off the "Vishnu" crap off the bottom of my ECU. Then bring on the protests. My boost is stock or lower.[/QUOTE] Dussander, don't take this next comment personally its said to make a point. Oh really? Do you have stock boost on one map and 17psi on another map? You could have just switched to the stock map when you pulled into inpound for all I know.
-Tom
| KC | 03-25-2003 03:47 PM |
I'm sorry it has to come down to this. People spent good money in the modifications of the car, to set it up to heed to the 'grey' areas of the rules.
Now, something came along that further changed the scope of this 'grey' area to the point where there exists the possibility the mod that was in the 'grey' area can no longer be considered a legal mod... this new announcement settled that argument. It's not legal.
Here's the point... ALL WRXs will be protested at national events most likely. Why? Because there are people out there NOT driving subarus that think we're ALL a bunch of cheaters. Why give them another reason?
It's illegal. You've changed the stock boost maps as delivered from the factory (The rules call this 'standard boost levels'. (you have to program A boost level during the Re-Flash. During the re-flash, there's no option NOT to.) Standard boost levels get changed when you get the re-flash.
Now, you can set a trigger to turn it on and off "Valet".
We've argued the point back and forth hearing from both sides of the argument. Sure, you can play the 'it's not up to me to prove I'm innocent' card, but then by doing that, you're throwing good sportsmanship to the wind.
--kC
Now, something came along that further changed the scope of this 'grey' area to the point where there exists the possibility the mod that was in the 'grey' area can no longer be considered a legal mod... this new announcement settled that argument. It's not legal.
Here's the point... ALL WRXs will be protested at national events most likely. Why? Because there are people out there NOT driving subarus that think we're ALL a bunch of cheaters. Why give them another reason?
It's illegal. You've changed the stock boost maps as delivered from the factory (The rules call this 'standard boost levels'. (you have to program A boost level during the Re-Flash. During the re-flash, there's no option NOT to.) Standard boost levels get changed when you get the re-flash.
Now, you can set a trigger to turn it on and off "Valet".
We've argued the point back and forth hearing from both sides of the argument. Sure, you can play the 'it's not up to me to prove I'm innocent' card, but then by doing that, you're throwing good sportsmanship to the wind.
--kC
| rankink | 03-25-2003 04:10 PM |
See... Problems like these are why I decided to stay in stock class and not make the jump to STX. Too much BS in my opinion.
K
K
| paultg | 03-25-2003 04:28 PM |
So,
If you have an ECUtek, and you run stock boost levels, and have dyno graphs to prove it, and your boost gauge after your run proves it, is there still an issue?
Are you guys saying even if you run it and you aren't modifing boost, since you can change the maps on the fly you don't believe any actual proof, and the item should be/will be illegal?
Paul G.
If you have an ECUtek, and you run stock boost levels, and have dyno graphs to prove it, and your boost gauge after your run proves it, is there still an issue?
Are you guys saying even if you run it and you aren't modifing boost, since you can change the maps on the fly you don't believe any actual proof, and the item should be/will be illegal?
Paul G.
| Dussander | 03-25-2003 04:56 PM |
This grey area is only going to get worse over time and I imagine they will just have to abandon remapped ECUs and maybe even piggy-back devices.
But in my eyes, the remapped ECU argument doesn't change ECUTek because there is new ECUTek technology. Call one ECUTek 1.0 and the new one 2.0. Because you *could* have 2.0 shouldn't invalidate 1.0. Visually you can not tell them apart AND you can not tell them apart from a stock ECU. You also can not tell them apart from an ECU with a Unichip attached to the top of it. What if someone finds a different way (new company or brand) to remap ECUs? You can not tell the difference there either. What if someone details how to read out your ECU memory, details where the maps are located and how to build a programmer?
[QUOTE](you have to program A boost level during the Re-Flash. During the re-flash, there's no option NOT to.)[/QUOTE]
Why can't you read out the old maps stored in the original flash and simply write the same values back in? Physically the gates holding the boost values won't change polarity.
You can't simply make a blanket statement saying, a Unichip is legal and ECUTek is illegal. You *could* make a Unichip illegal. You may think it would be easy to spot, but with some slight rewiring and some sly soldering you could make it very difficult to spot. This shouldn't mean that people shouldn't run Unichips. The legality should be proved by checking boost levels with a gauge and a drive.
Crap, I gotta work, finish this later.
But in my eyes, the remapped ECU argument doesn't change ECUTek because there is new ECUTek technology. Call one ECUTek 1.0 and the new one 2.0. Because you *could* have 2.0 shouldn't invalidate 1.0. Visually you can not tell them apart AND you can not tell them apart from a stock ECU. You also can not tell them apart from an ECU with a Unichip attached to the top of it. What if someone finds a different way (new company or brand) to remap ECUs? You can not tell the difference there either. What if someone details how to read out your ECU memory, details where the maps are located and how to build a programmer?
[QUOTE](you have to program A boost level during the Re-Flash. During the re-flash, there's no option NOT to.)[/QUOTE]
Why can't you read out the old maps stored in the original flash and simply write the same values back in? Physically the gates holding the boost values won't change polarity.
You can't simply make a blanket statement saying, a Unichip is legal and ECUTek is illegal. You *could* make a Unichip illegal. You may think it would be easy to spot, but with some slight rewiring and some sly soldering you could make it very difficult to spot. This shouldn't mean that people shouldn't run Unichips. The legality should be proved by checking boost levels with a gauge and a drive.
Crap, I gotta work, finish this later.
| elgorey | 03-25-2003 05:13 PM |
yikes. this is getting messy.
Evan
-who has no chip or piggyback and plans on staying that way.
Evan
-who has no chip or piggyback and plans on staying that way.
| KC | 03-25-2003 05:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]So,
If you have an ECUtek, and you run stock boost levels, and have dyno graphs to prove it, and your boost gauge after your run proves it, is there still an issue?
Are you guys saying even if you run it and you aren't modifing boost, since you can change the maps on the fly you don't believe any actual proof, and the item should be/will be illegal?
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]Paul, the argument, as far as I'm concerned, isn't that you run stock boost levels, is that they were altered from how the car was delivered because you cannot have an ecuteck and keep the stock ECU maps. The ECUTeck has to be programmed with *A* map. By doing so, you have changed/modified the stock map as it was delivered.
To me, it doesn't matter if you have paperwork etc, with the capability for it to be programmed now, it removes any leniency that I was going to give in allowing it. Why? The controls are no longer in the original tuners hands (ie: shiv).
[B]So,
If you have an ECUtek, and you run stock boost levels, and have dyno graphs to prove it, and your boost gauge after your run proves it, is there still an issue?
Are you guys saying even if you run it and you aren't modifing boost, since you can change the maps on the fly you don't believe any actual proof, and the item should be/will be illegal?
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]Paul, the argument, as far as I'm concerned, isn't that you run stock boost levels, is that they were altered from how the car was delivered because you cannot have an ecuteck and keep the stock ECU maps. The ECUTeck has to be programmed with *A* map. By doing so, you have changed/modified the stock map as it was delivered.
To me, it doesn't matter if you have paperwork etc, with the capability for it to be programmed now, it removes any leniency that I was going to give in allowing it. Why? The controls are no longer in the original tuners hands (ie: shiv).
| AUTOwrXER | 03-25-2003 05:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dussander [/i]
[B]This grey area is only going to get worse over time and I imagine they will just have to abandon remapped ECUs and maybe even piggy-back devices.
But in my eyes, the remapped ECU argument doesn't change ECUTek because there is new ECUTek technology. Call one ECUTek 1.0 and the new one 2.0. Because you *could* have 2.0 shouldn't invalidate 1.0. Visually you can not tell them apart AND you can not tell them apart from a stock ECU. You also can not tell them apart from an ECU with a Unichip attached to the top of it. What if someone finds a different way (new company or brand) to remap ECUs? You can not tell the difference there either. What if someone details how to read out your ECU memory, details where the maps are located and how to build a programmer?
Why can't you read out the old maps stored in the original flash and simply write the same values back in? Physically the gates holding the boost values won't change polarity.
You can't simply make a blanket statement saying, a Unichip is legal and ECUTek is illegal. You *could* make a Unichip illegal. You may think it would be easy to spot, but with some slight rewiring and some sly soldering you could make it very difficult to spot. This shouldn't mean that people shouldn't run Unichips. The legality should be proved by checking boost levels with a gauge and a drive.
Crap, I gotta work, finish this later. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with Mike on this one. Mike and I are running the same setup - ECUTek 1.0 with stock boost maps. IMO, as the rules read now there is nothing that makes this setup illegal. I am not modifying the boost map, and I can't change maps on the fly. I do agree that this is protestable if you can change maps on the fly (i.e. 2.0), but in my case I cannot. In a protest, you can push all the buttons you want and you still won't see my boost beyond what can be expected with exhaust mods.
Tom - If (and probably when) you protest me, my boost will read significantly lower than yours does. Will we accomplish anything if you protest me at SEDIV or would this need to be taken up at a National Tour event? I hope we can settle this over the weekend because I'll be on old undersized tires and a "soft" setup at the Black Lake, so I don't expect this to be my best event anyway. I'll split the protest fee with you just to settle this once and for all. How's that sound? I'd rather run legal and focus on driving rather than what's going to happen when I get back to impound.
Joel
[B]This grey area is only going to get worse over time and I imagine they will just have to abandon remapped ECUs and maybe even piggy-back devices.
But in my eyes, the remapped ECU argument doesn't change ECUTek because there is new ECUTek technology. Call one ECUTek 1.0 and the new one 2.0. Because you *could* have 2.0 shouldn't invalidate 1.0. Visually you can not tell them apart AND you can not tell them apart from a stock ECU. You also can not tell them apart from an ECU with a Unichip attached to the top of it. What if someone finds a different way (new company or brand) to remap ECUs? You can not tell the difference there either. What if someone details how to read out your ECU memory, details where the maps are located and how to build a programmer?
Why can't you read out the old maps stored in the original flash and simply write the same values back in? Physically the gates holding the boost values won't change polarity.
You can't simply make a blanket statement saying, a Unichip is legal and ECUTek is illegal. You *could* make a Unichip illegal. You may think it would be easy to spot, but with some slight rewiring and some sly soldering you could make it very difficult to spot. This shouldn't mean that people shouldn't run Unichips. The legality should be proved by checking boost levels with a gauge and a drive.
Crap, I gotta work, finish this later. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with Mike on this one. Mike and I are running the same setup - ECUTek 1.0 with stock boost maps. IMO, as the rules read now there is nothing that makes this setup illegal. I am not modifying the boost map, and I can't change maps on the fly. I do agree that this is protestable if you can change maps on the fly (i.e. 2.0), but in my case I cannot. In a protest, you can push all the buttons you want and you still won't see my boost beyond what can be expected with exhaust mods.
Tom - If (and probably when) you protest me, my boost will read significantly lower than yours does. Will we accomplish anything if you protest me at SEDIV or would this need to be taken up at a National Tour event? I hope we can settle this over the weekend because I'll be on old undersized tires and a "soft" setup at the Black Lake, so I don't expect this to be my best event anyway. I'll split the protest fee with you just to settle this once and for all. How's that sound? I'd rather run legal and focus on driving rather than what's going to happen when I get back to impound.
Joel
| AUTOwrXER | 03-25-2003 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Paul, the argument, as far as I'm concerned, isn't that you run stock boost levels, is that they were altered from how the car was delivered because you cannot have an ecuteck and keep the stock ECU maps. The ECUTeck has to be programmed with *A* map. By doing so, you have changed/modified the stock map as it was delivered.[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think that is a correct statement. You can program it with the same stock map as you had previously, so you haven't changed boost...
Joel
[B]Paul, the argument, as far as I'm concerned, isn't that you run stock boost levels, is that they were altered from how the car was delivered because you cannot have an ecuteck and keep the stock ECU maps. The ECUTeck has to be programmed with *A* map. By doing so, you have changed/modified the stock map as it was delivered.[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think that is a correct statement. You can program it with the same stock map as you had previously, so you haven't changed boost...
Joel
| TheWRX | 03-25-2003 05:48 PM |
Joel: While browsing through the rule book today, I saw that you can file a "Request for Clarification" (was rule 4.5 on page 59 last year, the 2003 book is in the car...), which is handled very much like a protest. So you don't need to talk somebody into protesting you if you want a decision.
I was reading the board on the Cobb web site recently, and remember seeing a remark that they would (plan to?) talk to the SCCA about having a setup at Nationals where they can pull ECU boost maps and check if they're modified. This also indicates that it's possible to get the current boost map, and write back the identical thing when doing a flash.
I was reading the board on the Cobb web site recently, and remember seeing a remark that they would (plan to?) talk to the SCCA about having a setup at Nationals where they can pull ECU boost maps and check if they're modified. This also indicates that it's possible to get the current boost map, and write back the identical thing when doing a flash.
| Dussander | 03-25-2003 05:58 PM |
....should still be working....
Here is my quandary. How do I get my stock map back? By KCs reasoning (which, I don't agree with), I can't get it flashed back to stock and have it be legal because my *map* may not be the same exact data found in the ECU I bought when I bought my car. Thus, I could have a different boost map.
Can you bring a lawyer to a protest? :D
Here is my quandary. How do I get my stock map back? By KCs reasoning (which, I don't agree with), I can't get it flashed back to stock and have it be legal because my *map* may not be the same exact data found in the ECU I bought when I bought my car. Thus, I could have a different boost map.
Can you bring a lawyer to a protest? :D
| Dussander | 03-25-2003 06:02 PM |
[QUOTE]I was reading the board on the Cobb web site recently, and remember seeing a remark that they would (plan to?) talk to the SCCA about having a setup at Nationals where they can pull ECU boost maps and check if they're modified. This also indicates that it's possible to get the current boost map, and write back the identical thing when doing a flash.[/QUOTE]
That would be pretty cool, but I wonder how many different stock boost maps there are nowadays. If there was only like 4 that would be cool to have that data, so we could just read out the map, compare the boost map data to see if it matches one of the 4.
That would be pretty cool, but I wonder how many different stock boost maps there are nowadays. If there was only like 4 that would be cool to have that data, so we could just read out the map, compare the boost map data to see if it matches one of the 4.
| ChrisW | 03-25-2003 06:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dussander [/i]
[B]....should still be working....
Here is my quandary. How do I get my stock map back? By KCs reasoning (which, I don't agree with), I can't get it flashed back to stock and have it be legal because my *map* may not be the same exact data found in the ECU I bought when I bought my car. Thus, I could have a different boost map.
Can you bring a lawyer to a protest? :D [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. Further more, with all the variance that Vishnu has discovered between different "stock" ECU's, what is the stock boost map? Vishnu has detected at least 5 acknowledged variations in the boost maps and other parameters on otherwise stock ECU's.
but wait a minute... Subaru has already reprogrammed my ECU to correct the PE1443 CEL error. According to your logic KC, my ECU has never been legal since I let SOA reprogram it.
[B]....should still be working....
Here is my quandary. How do I get my stock map back? By KCs reasoning (which, I don't agree with), I can't get it flashed back to stock and have it be legal because my *map* may not be the same exact data found in the ECU I bought when I bought my car. Thus, I could have a different boost map.
Can you bring a lawyer to a protest? :D [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. Further more, with all the variance that Vishnu has discovered between different "stock" ECU's, what is the stock boost map? Vishnu has detected at least 5 acknowledged variations in the boost maps and other parameters on otherwise stock ECU's.
but wait a minute... Subaru has already reprogrammed my ECU to correct the PE1443 CEL error. According to your logic KC, my ECU has never been legal since I let SOA reprogram it.
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-25-2003 07:26 PM |
Comic Relief!
�
�
All this has given me an IDEA :devil:
The next time someone calls a cone in on me or calls me off-course, Im going to demand an instant replay..:p
If im right the time is corrected. If im wrong its a 2 second penalty. :D
What do ya think :rolleyes:
The next time someone calls a cone in on me or calls me off-course, Im going to demand an instant replay..:p
If im right the time is corrected. If im wrong its a 2 second penalty. :D
What do ya think :rolleyes:
| paultg | 03-25-2003 09:18 PM |
Wait, I'm really trying to understand the issue here.
I thought it was the amount of "boost" at any given RPM being changed from the stock level (increased) at that RPM? So to me this means you can run an afermarket ECU, as long as the stock boost curve is maintained? Am I correct?
From what KC is saying (maybe this is only his opinion and not the rule), is that any altered engine map is illegal, since the car was not tuned that way from the factory. That to me means no aftermarket piggy back/ecu is legal?
Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:
Than why wouldn't an ECUtek tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?
I know this seems silly, but I've considered a reprogrammed ECU but with stock boost, because I'm not 100% down with running higher boost all day on the stock turbo. I'm not sure the gains will be worth the cost, but it is something I've thought about.
Paul G.
I thought it was the amount of "boost" at any given RPM being changed from the stock level (increased) at that RPM? So to me this means you can run an afermarket ECU, as long as the stock boost curve is maintained? Am I correct?
From what KC is saying (maybe this is only his opinion and not the rule), is that any altered engine map is illegal, since the car was not tuned that way from the factory. That to me means no aftermarket piggy back/ecu is legal?
Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:
Than why wouldn't an ECUtek tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?
I know this seems silly, but I've considered a reprogrammed ECU but with stock boost, because I'm not 100% down with running higher boost all day on the stock turbo. I'm not sure the gains will be worth the cost, but it is something I've thought about.
Paul G.
| TheWRX | 03-25-2003 09:20 PM |
Here is the quote from Trey Cobb that I was referring to earlier:
[QUOTE]We also plan on talking with the SCCA about providing a free �ECU Legality Check� for the Subaru�s competing in the STX class at Nationals. Simply checking boost maps to verify they are in fact stock to keep the competition between the drivers and not their ECUs.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]We also plan on talking with the SCCA about providing a free �ECU Legality Check� for the Subaru�s competing in the STX class at Nationals. Simply checking boost maps to verify they are in fact stock to keep the competition between the drivers and not their ECUs.[/QUOTE]
| Orion | 03-25-2003 10:12 PM |
Wow! I'm outta town for the day and I missed the whole thing!
Glad my intuition was right this time. Just goes to show we have 2 options the S-AFC and the Unichip w/o boost module.
Glad my intuition was right this time. Just goes to show we have 2 options the S-AFC and the Unichip w/o boost module.
| Orion | 03-25-2003 10:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]
Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:
Than why wouldn't an ECUtek tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Unichip is legal only if it does NOT have the boost module. TurboXS is instantly out. The Vishnu is perfectly legal since it relies on an MBC for boost control. I can't remember what the Cobb system uses.
[B]
Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:
Than why wouldn't an ECUtek tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Unichip is legal only if it does NOT have the boost module. TurboXS is instantly out. The Vishnu is perfectly legal since it relies on an MBC for boost control. I can't remember what the Cobb system uses.
| TheWRX | 03-25-2003 11:03 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]From what KC is saying (maybe this is only his opinion and not the rule), is that any altered engine map is illegal, since the car was not tuned that way from the factory.[/B][/QUOTE]
In my interpretation, an ECU reflash is legal if you leave the boost control map(s) unchanged. You can change other maps, like fuel and timing. If I understand KC correctly, he seems to doubt that it's technically possible to only change timing/fuel, and keep the original boost map?
Note that there's a subtle but important difference between "maintaining stock boost levels" and "not changing the boost maps". I'm personally in the camp with the opinion that maintaining stock boost levels is not enough, you can't touch the boost maps. On the other hand, if you gain boost as a side effect of other legal mods (like intake or exhaust), I believe that would be fine.
[B]From what KC is saying (maybe this is only his opinion and not the rule), is that any altered engine map is illegal, since the car was not tuned that way from the factory.[/B][/QUOTE]
In my interpretation, an ECU reflash is legal if you leave the boost control map(s) unchanged. You can change other maps, like fuel and timing. If I understand KC correctly, he seems to doubt that it's technically possible to only change timing/fuel, and keep the original boost map?
Note that there's a subtle but important difference between "maintaining stock boost levels" and "not changing the boost maps". I'm personally in the camp with the opinion that maintaining stock boost levels is not enough, you can't touch the boost maps. On the other hand, if you gain boost as a side effect of other legal mods (like intake or exhaust), I believe that would be fine.
| XT6Wagon | 03-25-2003 11:57 PM |
Problem with reading the boost maps is that the ECU is a smart ECU and can change the boost values ON ITS OWN w/o any flashing or other help.
Is it illegal for me to run higher than stock boost.... by running around on 104 octane unleaded for a good solid month before running?
Or should everyone be forced to run around since the car is brand new on 90 or 91 octane so there is no possiblity of higher boost values?
Is it illegal for me to run higher than stock boost.... by running around on 104 octane unleaded for a good solid month before running?
Or should everyone be forced to run around since the car is brand new on 90 or 91 octane so there is no possiblity of higher boost values?
| MNbiker | 03-26-2003 12:57 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:
Than why wouldn't an ECUtek tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Here's the pertinent language from Section 17.10 of the 2003 SCCA rulebook:
"D. The engine management system parameters and operation may be modified only via the methods listed below. Any and all modifications must meet or exceed the applicable US DOT emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car. These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted.
1. Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters may not be altered.
2. Electronic components may be installed inline between an engine's sensors and ECU. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU's operation of engine management system. Example: fuel controllers that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor."
Clear as mud yet?:(
I see two real issues with ECU reflashes that could affect legality:
1. Something like EcuTek V2.0 that adds multiple boost maps and a capability to change them on the fly would seem to be clearly illegal, since it would be akin to adding a manual boost controller. (Illegal to have installed on the car, as it modifies the cars stock boost control). In theory, a reflash without the V2.0 capabilities COULD be considered legal, however....
2. Even if you have a supposedly "STX-legal" re-flash, it's possible other parameters could be changed that would affect boost, even if the primary boost map remains "stock" (this assumes someone can supply a list of the 4-5 stock ECU maps for comparison). I've yet to see a definitive statement from EcuTek, indicating all the ways boost can be modified, via settings other than the primary boost map. Ultimately, it would come down to testing across the RPM range at various throttle positions. Variance from stock beyond x% at any point would be illegal. Problem is, the rules don't define x%, or account for the fact that legal exhaust system mods may affect boost levels as well. (oh, I forgot - we're not exactly sure what constitutes a legal exhaust system! :rolleyes: )
I can't wait to see what the SCCA comes up with.....
-Steve
[B]Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:
Than why wouldn't an ECUtek tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Here's the pertinent language from Section 17.10 of the 2003 SCCA rulebook:
"D. The engine management system parameters and operation may be modified only via the methods listed below. Any and all modifications must meet or exceed the applicable US DOT emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car. These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted.
1. Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters may not be altered.
2. Electronic components may be installed inline between an engine's sensors and ECU. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU's operation of engine management system. Example: fuel controllers that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor."
Clear as mud yet?:(
I see two real issues with ECU reflashes that could affect legality:
1. Something like EcuTek V2.0 that adds multiple boost maps and a capability to change them on the fly would seem to be clearly illegal, since it would be akin to adding a manual boost controller. (Illegal to have installed on the car, as it modifies the cars stock boost control). In theory, a reflash without the V2.0 capabilities COULD be considered legal, however....
2. Even if you have a supposedly "STX-legal" re-flash, it's possible other parameters could be changed that would affect boost, even if the primary boost map remains "stock" (this assumes someone can supply a list of the 4-5 stock ECU maps for comparison). I've yet to see a definitive statement from EcuTek, indicating all the ways boost can be modified, via settings other than the primary boost map. Ultimately, it would come down to testing across the RPM range at various throttle positions. Variance from stock beyond x% at any point would be illegal. Problem is, the rules don't define x%, or account for the fact that legal exhaust system mods may affect boost levels as well. (oh, I forgot - we're not exactly sure what constitutes a legal exhaust system! :rolleyes: )
I can't wait to see what the SCCA comes up with.....
-Steve
| paultg | 03-26-2003 06:40 AM |
Thanks for clarifying that, and I should have been more clear. When I typed "stock boost levels" I meant the entire boost map/curve unchanged, same boost levels as stock at any RPM.
Paul G.
Paul G.
| KC | 03-26-2003 08:47 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
I thought it was the amount of "boost" at any given RPM being changed from the stock level (increased) at that RPM? So to me this means you can run an aftermarket ECU, as long as the stock boost curve is maintained? Am I correct?[/quote]
Yes.
[QUOTE]From what KC is saying (maybe this is only his opinion and not the rule), is that any altered engine map is illegal, since the car was not tuned that way from the factory. That to me means no aftermarket piggy back/ecu is legal?[/QUOTE]
Opinion/Interpretation same thing. However you have misunderstood one of two things....
I never said anything about "Any altered engine map". My argument is when you buy the ECUTeck re-flash of your stock ECU, everything gets dumped of the code from the factory (or from SOA for those who have had the P1443 CEL problem).
When I say everything the part that is of issue, TO ME, is that since there is no ONE boost map, there are 4-5 different ones, the lower limits of one and the higher limits of another are put (or can be put) together into THE boost map that gets dumped to the ECU, effectively over writing the one that's already on the ECU. There is NO CONCEIVABLE WAY to get the ECUTec re-flash and ask not dump the boost maps (or any boost maps) onto the ECU.
[QUOTE]Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:[/QUOTE]
Correct. You are right. A Unichip without the boost module attached to the unit is perfectly legal since it does not alter boost.
[QUOTE]Than why wouldn't an ECUTec tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?[/QUOTE]See above... because the car no longer has the boost map that came with the car or was fixed under recall/warranty repair by SOA. (CE Light).
[QUOTE]I know this seems silly, but I've considered a reprogrammed ECU but with stock boost, because I'm not 100% down with running higher boost all day on the stock turbo. I'm not sure the gains will be worth the cost, but it is something I've thought about.[/QUOTE]Again it comes down to interpretation of the rules.
The rule states [B]except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted.
[/B] IMHO, and my interpretation of the rules, you have effectively changed the the 'standard' boost level once you get the ECU re-flash.
If I'm wrong or considered incorrect via an overturned protest, or even before it comes to that there is a ruling on the legality, then I will get one and have no qualms about the unit. However, I feel that is just not the case.
What I'm worried about is being accused of having one when I don't, not by the Subaru guys, but by other people who want to win as much as you or I do.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
[QUOTE]In my interpretation, an ECU re-flash is legal if you leave the boost control map(s) unchanged. You can change other maps, like fuel and timing. If I understand KC correctly, he seems to doubt that it's technically possible to only change timing/fuel, and keep the original boost map?[/QUOTE]In a nutshell, yep. In the Dump from the ECUTec, the tuner has no option to NOT load any boost map. One must be programmed at the time of the Dumping. (heheh I said 'Dump')
[QUOTE]if you gain boost as a side effect of other legal mods (like intake or exhaust), I believe that would be fine.[/QUOTE] And this is natural with turbo cars once you hit exhaust modifications. You WILL see increased boost from mods. And it is legal.
Again, my whole topic on my soapbox is 'Show me a tuner that doesn't have to program a boost map, any boostmap, stock or otherwise, at the time of the re-flash, and I can be bought to say it's legal.' I say this because I've confirmed there is no way of reading which boost map is on your car before the re-flash. Because that is the case, you will not be getting what came from the factory or was flashed onto your ecu as part of a warranty repair by SOA.... effectively changing the boost map on the ECU. (Or else it would be very easy and the case would be solved... you'd download your boost map from your ECU into the ECUTec and then get the reflash with the exact same boost map that came from your car. This would be the only, TO ME, conceivable way NOT to change the stock boost map on your car with an ECU re-flash.. but this cannot be done.)
--kC
I thought it was the amount of "boost" at any given RPM being changed from the stock level (increased) at that RPM? So to me this means you can run an aftermarket ECU, as long as the stock boost curve is maintained? Am I correct?[/quote]
Yes.
[QUOTE]From what KC is saying (maybe this is only his opinion and not the rule), is that any altered engine map is illegal, since the car was not tuned that way from the factory. That to me means no aftermarket piggy back/ecu is legal?[/QUOTE]
Opinion/Interpretation same thing. However you have misunderstood one of two things....
I never said anything about "Any altered engine map". My argument is when you buy the ECUTeck re-flash of your stock ECU, everything gets dumped of the code from the factory (or from SOA for those who have had the P1443 CEL problem).
When I say everything the part that is of issue, TO ME, is that since there is no ONE boost map, there are 4-5 different ones, the lower limits of one and the higher limits of another are put (or can be put) together into THE boost map that gets dumped to the ECU, effectively over writing the one that's already on the ECU. There is NO CONCEIVABLE WAY to get the ECUTec re-flash and ask not dump the boost maps (or any boost maps) onto the ECU.
[QUOTE]Can someone clarify what is allowed in STX? I thought a Unichip was legal because it didn't alter boost (only timing/fuel I think). If that is the case:[/QUOTE]
Correct. You are right. A Unichip without the boost module attached to the unit is perfectly legal since it does not alter boost.
[QUOTE]Than why wouldn't an ECUTec tuned by anyone "insert tuner name here or your name" mapped with stock boost levels be legal?[/QUOTE]See above... because the car no longer has the boost map that came with the car or was fixed under recall/warranty repair by SOA. (CE Light).
[QUOTE]I know this seems silly, but I've considered a reprogrammed ECU but with stock boost, because I'm not 100% down with running higher boost all day on the stock turbo. I'm not sure the gains will be worth the cost, but it is something I've thought about.[/QUOTE]Again it comes down to interpretation of the rules.
The rule states [B]except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted.
[/B] IMHO, and my interpretation of the rules, you have effectively changed the the 'standard' boost level once you get the ECU re-flash.
If I'm wrong or considered incorrect via an overturned protest, or even before it comes to that there is a ruling on the legality, then I will get one and have no qualms about the unit. However, I feel that is just not the case.
What I'm worried about is being accused of having one when I don't, not by the Subaru guys, but by other people who want to win as much as you or I do.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
[QUOTE]In my interpretation, an ECU re-flash is legal if you leave the boost control map(s) unchanged. You can change other maps, like fuel and timing. If I understand KC correctly, he seems to doubt that it's technically possible to only change timing/fuel, and keep the original boost map?[/QUOTE]In a nutshell, yep. In the Dump from the ECUTec, the tuner has no option to NOT load any boost map. One must be programmed at the time of the Dumping. (heheh I said 'Dump')
[QUOTE]if you gain boost as a side effect of other legal mods (like intake or exhaust), I believe that would be fine.[/QUOTE] And this is natural with turbo cars once you hit exhaust modifications. You WILL see increased boost from mods. And it is legal.
Again, my whole topic on my soapbox is 'Show me a tuner that doesn't have to program a boost map, any boostmap, stock or otherwise, at the time of the re-flash, and I can be bought to say it's legal.' I say this because I've confirmed there is no way of reading which boost map is on your car before the re-flash. Because that is the case, you will not be getting what came from the factory or was flashed onto your ecu as part of a warranty repair by SOA.... effectively changing the boost map on the ECU. (Or else it would be very easy and the case would be solved... you'd download your boost map from your ECU into the ECUTec and then get the reflash with the exact same boost map that came from your car. This would be the only, TO ME, conceivable way NOT to change the stock boost map on your car with an ECU re-flash.. but this cannot be done.)
--kC
| paultg | 03-26-2003 09:12 AM |
I wasn't aware of the claim that the "stock boost map" could not be re-entered/programmed into the ECU.
Maybe the SCCA needs to work with tuners to make a "legal" boost map for all cars competing in STX. The tuners could develope a boost map along with the other tuning features that would be considered legal, and the SCCA could check for that specific map on each ECU somehow.
To be honest KC, I think your really "reading into things". I see your case, but yikes..
Folks should just stick with the Unichip. They are getting real cheap too. :)
Confusing. Glad I don't compete with the SCCA.
Paul G.
Maybe the SCCA needs to work with tuners to make a "legal" boost map for all cars competing in STX. The tuners could develope a boost map along with the other tuning features that would be considered legal, and the SCCA could check for that specific map on each ECU somehow.
To be honest KC, I think your really "reading into things". I see your case, but yikes..
Folks should just stick with the Unichip. They are getting real cheap too. :)
Confusing. Glad I don't compete with the SCCA.
Paul G.
| KC | 03-26-2003 09:22 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]To be honest KC, I think your really "reading into things". I see your case, but yikes..[/B][/QUOTE]That may be the case and I gave an allowance for it that if the SEB or the STAC makes it legal, then fine. I'm cool with that. :)
And Paul, locally, go ahead and run it. (For those that don't know, Paul would be running in the same region I run in) I really won't care if anyone does. I know I'll be legal. That's no reason to 'keep you away' from running with the SCCA, especially the NER. Sure, we only get 3 runs, with about 180ish competitiors and it makes for a long day, but on a local level, rules tend to be a little more 'relaxed' than the national level.
The issue of 'protests' comes about at national competitions (tours/pros) where you really need to be 'by the book' and in the lack of a well defined rule, interpretations run amuck. :)
[B]To be honest KC, I think your really "reading into things". I see your case, but yikes..[/B][/QUOTE]That may be the case and I gave an allowance for it that if the SEB or the STAC makes it legal, then fine. I'm cool with that. :)
And Paul, locally, go ahead and run it. (For those that don't know, Paul would be running in the same region I run in) I really won't care if anyone does. I know I'll be legal. That's no reason to 'keep you away' from running with the SCCA, especially the NER. Sure, we only get 3 runs, with about 180ish competitiors and it makes for a long day, but on a local level, rules tend to be a little more 'relaxed' than the national level.
The issue of 'protests' comes about at national competitions (tours/pros) where you really need to be 'by the book' and in the lack of a well defined rule, interpretations run amuck. :)
| Dussander | 03-26-2003 10:44 AM |
[QUOTE]I say this because I've confirmed there is no way of reading which boost map is on your car before the re-flash.[/QUOTE]
And from Cobb:
[QUOTE]Simply checking boost maps to verify they are in fact stock to keep the competition between the drivers and not their ECUs.[/QUOTE]
If Cobb can read them, then they can be read. If they can be read, they can be written.
I think some people are reading way too much into this:
"no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls "
I got some bugs jammed in my intercooler. Does that count as a change?
[QUOTE]2. Even if you have a supposedly "STX-legal" re-flash, it's possible other parameters could be changed that would affect boost, even if the primary boost map remains "stock" (this assumes someone can supply a list of the 4-5 stock ECU maps for comparison).[/QUOTE]
As far as I understand turbos (in our car), you willl have the max boost map for each rpm/gear/throttle position. They they probably have a second map, for limp mode. When boost comes on and at what PSI builds is a physical aspect of the exhaust flow. There is no way to go into the ECU and say, please turn on my boost earlier. Though, potentially, if you could tune fuel and timing correctly, you may be able to build more exhaust pressure earlier and thus sort of bring boost on earlier, but this can be done with any fuel/timing system. The boost maps are for when to bleed off any extra boost. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think there is any other way for the ECU to change the boost.
And from Cobb:
[QUOTE]Simply checking boost maps to verify they are in fact stock to keep the competition between the drivers and not their ECUs.[/QUOTE]
If Cobb can read them, then they can be read. If they can be read, they can be written.
I think some people are reading way too much into this:
"no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls "
I got some bugs jammed in my intercooler. Does that count as a change?
[QUOTE]2. Even if you have a supposedly "STX-legal" re-flash, it's possible other parameters could be changed that would affect boost, even if the primary boost map remains "stock" (this assumes someone can supply a list of the 4-5 stock ECU maps for comparison).[/QUOTE]
As far as I understand turbos (in our car), you willl have the max boost map for each rpm/gear/throttle position. They they probably have a second map, for limp mode. When boost comes on and at what PSI builds is a physical aspect of the exhaust flow. There is no way to go into the ECU and say, please turn on my boost earlier. Though, potentially, if you could tune fuel and timing correctly, you may be able to build more exhaust pressure earlier and thus sort of bring boost on earlier, but this can be done with any fuel/timing system. The boost maps are for when to bleed off any extra boost. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think there is any other way for the ECU to change the boost.
| Dussander | 03-26-2003 10:47 AM |
KC,
I thought you were buying a different car for a different class? Did that not pan out?
I thought you were buying a different car for a different class? Did that not pan out?
| KC | 03-26-2003 10:55 AM |
Check your PMs. I'm pretty much committed to STX for a while. :) (Well, until the Elise gets here)
I may have looked at one or two cars, but nothing ever serious about getting out of the wagon.
I may have looked at one or two cars, but nothing ever serious about getting out of the wagon.
| trhoppe | 03-26-2003 11:31 AM |
There is another issue here. Cobb is full of **** ;)
There is no way that the actual boost map can be read off of the ECU. What CAN happen is the car can be delta dashed and the boost curve can be read. But the actual boost map on a ECUtekked ECU CANNOT be read.
So the issue still comes up. Run higher boost on track. Get in inpound, press the defrost, and youre on the stock boost map for testing.
How are you going to prevent THAT?
-Tom
There is no way that the actual boost map can be read off of the ECU. What CAN happen is the car can be delta dashed and the boost curve can be read. But the actual boost map on a ECUtekked ECU CANNOT be read.
So the issue still comes up. Run higher boost on track. Get in inpound, press the defrost, and youre on the stock boost map for testing.
How are you going to prevent THAT?
-Tom
| TheWRX | 03-26-2003 12:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]There is no way that the actual boost map can be read off of the ECU.[/B][/QUOTE]
No disrespect, but when you make a statement like this, I'd like to see something to back it up. Both Ecutek and Cobb managed to reengineer the code/maps on the ECU, that's how they figured out how to change them. I don't see how they could do that if they were unable to read the original data from the ECU memory in the first place.
Also, I thought that Shiv claimed to have found 4 or 5 different boost maps on stock ECUs. How would he know if he couldn't read them?
Dussander would probably have a better understanding of the technical details involved in something like this. Am I completely off track with the above?
[B]There is no way that the actual boost map can be read off of the ECU.[/B][/QUOTE]
No disrespect, but when you make a statement like this, I'd like to see something to back it up. Both Ecutek and Cobb managed to reengineer the code/maps on the ECU, that's how they figured out how to change them. I don't see how they could do that if they were unable to read the original data from the ECU memory in the first place.
Also, I thought that Shiv claimed to have found 4 or 5 different boost maps on stock ECUs. How would he know if he couldn't read them?
Dussander would probably have a better understanding of the technical details involved in something like this. Am I completely off track with the above?
| paultg | 03-26-2003 12:34 PM |
[QUOTE]The boost maps are for when to bleed off any extra boost. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think there is any other way for the ECU to change the boost.[/QUOTE]
I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that is 100% correct. I believe the ECU controls the electronic boost seloniod on are WRX (which may in fact just control the wastegate), but I'm not 100% sure on that.
KC:
I'm not worried about this at all. I find all these discussions very interesting though. I am hesitant to post here that I choose not to run with the local SCCA classes (or on a national level) because I fear folks who compete nationally (who are very serious) will discount my comments/questions. The club I run with (Ford club now) try to pax based on Scca classes, but they just ask me:
"What class you in" and wouldn't really no the rules in and out. I certainly don't want to cheat either though.
Tom pretty much cleared this up for me with his last statement. If the aftermartket engine management has the option to control boost it won't be considered legal (at least this seems to be the easiest way for the SCCA to clarify the rule, it stops the entire discussion). That's what I predict.
Start looking for a used Uni-chip (non-TXS). :D
Paul G.
I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that is 100% correct. I believe the ECU controls the electronic boost seloniod on are WRX (which may in fact just control the wastegate), but I'm not 100% sure on that.
KC:
I'm not worried about this at all. I find all these discussions very interesting though. I am hesitant to post here that I choose not to run with the local SCCA classes (or on a national level) because I fear folks who compete nationally (who are very serious) will discount my comments/questions. The club I run with (Ford club now) try to pax based on Scca classes, but they just ask me:
"What class you in" and wouldn't really no the rules in and out. I certainly don't want to cheat either though.
Tom pretty much cleared this up for me with his last statement. If the aftermartket engine management has the option to control boost it won't be considered legal (at least this seems to be the easiest way for the SCCA to clarify the rule, it stops the entire discussion). That's what I predict.
Start looking for a used Uni-chip (non-TXS). :D
Paul G.
| trhoppe | 03-26-2003 12:58 PM |
[QUOTE]No disrespect, but when you make a statement like this, I'd like to see something to back it up. [/QUOTE] Call shiv and ask him if any code that he puts on the ECU can be read back. NOPE. Its a one way thing. Maybe Cobb can read cobb's stuff. But cobb cannot "read" any maps of shiv's. The only thing they could do is delta dash it.
-Tom
-Tom
| KC | 03-26-2003 01:13 PM |
Poeple... don't confuse Cobbs AccessECU with the ECUTek... two VERY DIFFERENT products.
Cobbs tool will not be able to read Vishnus ECUs.
It's like Coke/Pepsi... two different products totally. While Cobbs Access ECU may be able to read the maps off the stock ECU, ECUtek certainly cannot (and by Cobbs admission... neither can the Factory SOA reader... it will not see neither Cobbs nor Vishnus ECUTek code)
Then if this means you run with the Cobb ECU... with a stock map PULLED from your car or unmodified, **if it has that capability** then go for it. But my e-mail to cobb regarding this issue has yet to be replied to from them.
Cobbs tool will not be able to read Vishnus ECUs.
It's like Coke/Pepsi... two different products totally. While Cobbs Access ECU may be able to read the maps off the stock ECU, ECUtek certainly cannot (and by Cobbs admission... neither can the Factory SOA reader... it will not see neither Cobbs nor Vishnus ECUTek code)
Then if this means you run with the Cobb ECU... with a stock map PULLED from your car or unmodified, **if it has that capability** then go for it. But my e-mail to cobb regarding this issue has yet to be replied to from them.
| 10th Warrior | 03-26-2003 01:49 PM |
Congratulations! you all have discovered why turbos are banned from nearly every form of motorsport. it is impossible to regulate boost. the best you can do is regulate the amount of air being sucked in (more or less) by restricting the piping. have fun!
| KC | 03-26-2003 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 10th Warrior [/i]
[B]Congratulations! you all have discovered why turbos are banned from nearly every form of motorsport. it is impossible to regulate boost. the best you can do is regulate the amount of air being sucked in (more or less) by restricting the piping. have fun! [/B][/QUOTE]:lol: Thanks. :) But turbos are gaining more popularity too. Banning them from Solo-II would be like banning Dodge from Nascar. Sure they weren't around for a while, but they have roots in the sport. ;)
[B]Congratulations! you all have discovered why turbos are banned from nearly every form of motorsport. it is impossible to regulate boost. the best you can do is regulate the amount of air being sucked in (more or less) by restricting the piping. have fun! [/B][/QUOTE]:lol: Thanks. :) But turbos are gaining more popularity too. Banning them from Solo-II would be like banning Dodge from Nascar. Sure they weren't around for a while, but they have roots in the sport. ;)
| 10th Warrior | 03-26-2003 03:55 PM |
i was in no way trying to imply that they are going to be or should be banned. that's one of the unique characteristics of solo 2. any production car in the country is elligible. but this is also why the solo 2 rules often make so little practical sense that people just love to whine about. this is going to be another thing. STX may have been made to encourage guys with modified street cars to start auto-xing, but just like SP it will grow into some trailer queen silly stuff. all the turbo stuff is just going to exasserbate that.
| ChrisW | 03-26-2003 04:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]There is another issue here. Cobb is full of **** ;)
There is no way that the actual boost map can be read off of the ECU. What CAN happen is the car can be delta dashed and the boost curve can be read. But the actual boost map on a ECUtekked ECU CANNOT be read.
So the issue still comes up. Run higher boost on track. Get in inpound, press the defrost, and youre on the stock boost map for testing.
How are you going to prevent THAT?
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Use the new version of Delta dash that lets you manually select between boost maps. You can do it either with the hidden dash switch or through the software.
Either way, with the latest version of delta dash it makes it just as easy to detect and profile the modified boost maps as it is to create them.
paultg: The ECU controls the boost seloniod. that is why this is such an issue. With a reprogrammed ECU you could run any boost curve you want, but the rules are pretty clear that the stock boost curve must be maintained.
The real question is a modified "boost map" the same as modifing the stock boost controller? If you modify the stock boost map to maintain the stock boost curve, are you still illegal?
[B]There is another issue here. Cobb is full of **** ;)
There is no way that the actual boost map can be read off of the ECU. What CAN happen is the car can be delta dashed and the boost curve can be read. But the actual boost map on a ECUtekked ECU CANNOT be read.
So the issue still comes up. Run higher boost on track. Get in inpound, press the defrost, and youre on the stock boost map for testing.
How are you going to prevent THAT?
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Use the new version of Delta dash that lets you manually select between boost maps. You can do it either with the hidden dash switch or through the software.
Either way, with the latest version of delta dash it makes it just as easy to detect and profile the modified boost maps as it is to create them.
paultg: The ECU controls the boost seloniod. that is why this is such an issue. With a reprogrammed ECU you could run any boost curve you want, but the rules are pretty clear that the stock boost curve must be maintained.
The real question is a modified "boost map" the same as modifing the stock boost controller? If you modify the stock boost map to maintain the stock boost curve, are you still illegal?
| Dussander | 03-27-2003 11:03 AM |
[QUOTE]The ECU controls the boost seloniod. that is why this is such an issue. With a reprogrammed ECU you could run any boost curve you want[/QUOTE]
I just want to clearify this. There is a purely physical aspect of the boost building that the seloniod can't control. The seloniod can't build boost, it just opens the wastegate (AFAIK). You can't change the boost map to get 16psi at 1k rpm. Also, the seloniod works slowly, thus why you can get spikes with exhaust changes. As you build boost low in a gear, the wastegate is fully closed, as the boost gauge reads too high of psi in a rpm range it opens the wastegate to bleed out some of the pressure. It usually over compensates so that it will get to the desired pressure quicker (see basic control theory). So, the boost map is really the desired max pressure for each rpm per throttle position.
Does anyone have a good picture of the ECU (without the cover)? I'm curious but I don't feel like opening mine up.
I'm also curious to what precision the boost map is stored in. What precision the boost seloniod functions on.
I just want to clearify this. There is a purely physical aspect of the boost building that the seloniod can't control. The seloniod can't build boost, it just opens the wastegate (AFAIK). You can't change the boost map to get 16psi at 1k rpm. Also, the seloniod works slowly, thus why you can get spikes with exhaust changes. As you build boost low in a gear, the wastegate is fully closed, as the boost gauge reads too high of psi in a rpm range it opens the wastegate to bleed out some of the pressure. It usually over compensates so that it will get to the desired pressure quicker (see basic control theory). So, the boost map is really the desired max pressure for each rpm per throttle position.
Does anyone have a good picture of the ECU (without the cover)? I'm curious but I don't feel like opening mine up.
I'm also curious to what precision the boost map is stored in. What precision the boost seloniod functions on.
| trhoppe | 03-27-2003 11:13 AM |
Well I have one more thing to say. I just picked up a DeltaDash. Any event I will go to, there will be a DeltaDash available. This will be the new version that will actually be able to see whether you have ECUtek 2.0 (the one with the switchable map). Also if you have ECUtek 1.0, we will be able to do a 1st and 2nd gear run in the car and check the boost map, to see if you are running higher boost.
Problem solved.
-Tom
Problem solved.
-Tom
| zoomfactor | 03-27-2003 11:51 AM |
Well with all the time and energy expended on this topic and the exhaust/cat discussions, I hope some of you Subaru pilots will make it worthwhile by winning most of the National events:devil:
I would hate to see all this time and effort bashed by the ITR's and MiniCooper S's:D
I would hate to see all this time and effort bashed by the ITR's and MiniCooper S's:D
| trhoppe | 03-27-2003 11:53 AM |
We're 3 for 3 as of right now :devil:
-Tom
-Tom
| Jon [in CT] | 03-27-2003 01:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Well I have one more thing to say. I just picked up a DeltaDash. Any event I will go to, there will be a DeltaDash available. This will be the new version that will actually be able to see whether you have ECUtek 2.0 (the one with the switchable map). Also if you have ECUtek 1.0, we will be able to do a 1st and 2nd gear run in the car and check the boost map, to see if you are running higher boost.
Problem solved.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]What if pins 4 and 5 of the OBD-II Data Link Connector happened not to be connected to anything? A generic OBD-II scan tool would continue to work fine in this situation and be able to report on the health of the emissions control systems, but a DeltaDash would be unable to report anything. Do SCCA rules require that DeltaDash function properly when connected to a WRX?
I think, in the end, the rules will be interpreted to mean that all hardware associated with boost control must be unaltered, but ECU software may be freely updated. An important part of the boost control hardware is the restrictor in the boost line running from the turbo. It was my impression that, even after an ECU reflash, significantly higher-than-stock boost wouldn't be possible with the stock restrictor in place. It seems like a simple matter to inspect for this.
[B]Well I have one more thing to say. I just picked up a DeltaDash. Any event I will go to, there will be a DeltaDash available. This will be the new version that will actually be able to see whether you have ECUtek 2.0 (the one with the switchable map). Also if you have ECUtek 1.0, we will be able to do a 1st and 2nd gear run in the car and check the boost map, to see if you are running higher boost.
Problem solved.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]What if pins 4 and 5 of the OBD-II Data Link Connector happened not to be connected to anything? A generic OBD-II scan tool would continue to work fine in this situation and be able to report on the health of the emissions control systems, but a DeltaDash would be unable to report anything. Do SCCA rules require that DeltaDash function properly when connected to a WRX?
I think, in the end, the rules will be interpreted to mean that all hardware associated with boost control must be unaltered, but ECU software may be freely updated. An important part of the boost control hardware is the restrictor in the boost line running from the turbo. It was my impression that, even after an ECU reflash, significantly higher-than-stock boost wouldn't be possible with the stock restrictor in place. It seems like a simple matter to inspect for this.
| trhoppe | 03-27-2003 01:48 PM |
[QUOTE]What if pins 4 and 5 of the OBD-II Data Link Connector happened not to be connected to anything?[/QUOTE] Its illegal to touch that. If the DeltaDash doesnt work youre doing *something* illegal :lol:
Also, we're not worried about "significantly" higher then stock boost. What we're worried about is someone holding 14-15psi until redline instead of 10 and 14-15psi in 1st instead of 10.
-Tom
Also, we're not worried about "significantly" higher then stock boost. What we're worried about is someone holding 14-15psi until redline instead of 10 and 14-15psi in 1st instead of 10.
-Tom
| TyrannoSullyRex | 03-27-2003 02:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]I just picked up a DeltaDash. Any event I will go to, there will be a DeltaDash available. [/B][/QUOTE]
Is this the "professional" one that can read anything? Not the "enthusiast" one that can read only 3 separate cars, right?
Go find yourself a person with a stock WRX and do some 2nd gear pulls to get a RPM vs. boost map for stock then do the same for your car and others (ones with ECUTEKs, unichips and others), I think overlaying the graphs would give a nice indication of legality. Of course there would be variations for the exhaust but those variations should be consistent amongst cars with similar exhaust.
[B]I just picked up a DeltaDash. Any event I will go to, there will be a DeltaDash available. [/B][/QUOTE]
Is this the "professional" one that can read anything? Not the "enthusiast" one that can read only 3 separate cars, right?
Go find yourself a person with a stock WRX and do some 2nd gear pulls to get a RPM vs. boost map for stock then do the same for your car and others (ones with ECUTEKs, unichips and others), I think overlaying the graphs would give a nice indication of legality. Of course there would be variations for the exhaust but those variations should be consistent amongst cars with similar exhaust.
| trhoppe | 03-27-2003 02:41 PM |
Its not actually 3 seperate cars, but 3 seperate TYPES of cars. 02 WRX 5spd, 02 WRX auto, etc etc.
So far it has 02 WRX 5spd on it. 03 WRX 5spd will be the 2nd car. I doubt we will be protesting many automatics :lol:
-Tom
So far it has 02 WRX 5spd on it. 03 WRX 5spd will be the 2nd car. I doubt we will be protesting many automatics :lol:
-Tom
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