| finnRex | 04-05-2004 07:11 AM |
Kevin, you're right in that the 19 is fastAr than last year's model. But the funny thing is, their reliability was semi-decent compared to this year. 0/3 is not a good way to start the season, especially this race. Blowing a motor up after 7 laps? What is that crap? Ugh, it's sickening as a McLaren fan. Sounds like I might have to join the tifosi...(how dare me say that;) )
Mika
Mika
| BillT | 04-05-2004 08:27 AM |
Welcome to 2002
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The Ferrari's were amazing (again) this weekend. MS made it look entirely effortless. Other than the 1-2 spots, the race was pretty exciting. The action with Ralf/Sato and Alonso/Webber made for some interesting moments. As much as I want to like Webber, he's driving is overly defensive when it comes to people trying to pass him.
I have to agree with Kevin's point about Kimi/DC and the Mercedes engine. Kimi has to be doing something different than DC to explain why he's blowing so many engines. My guess is that he is driving the car much more aggressively, while DC is dialing it back a notch or two to try to ensure a finish and at least some points.
I have to agree with Kevin's point about Kimi/DC and the Mercedes engine. Kimi has to be doing something different than DC to explain why he's blowing so many engines. My guess is that he is driving the car much more aggressively, while DC is dialing it back a notch or two to try to ensure a finish and at least some points.
| driggity | 04-05-2004 12:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bonzo[/i]
[B] It would be interesting if ferrari supplied the complete field with cars. A spec F1 series. Or a field of McLarens[/B][/QUOTE]
If it was a field of Mclarens you might end up with more cars left standing at the end of a demolition derby than at an F1 race. Is the same guy building Kimi's engines thats building Grunholm's power steering?
It should be interesting to see if the Renaults really pick up more power with the upcoming engine changes. There could be a lot of good battles behind the red cars this year.
[B] It would be interesting if ferrari supplied the complete field with cars. A spec F1 series. Or a field of McLarens[/B][/QUOTE]
If it was a field of Mclarens you might end up with more cars left standing at the end of a demolition derby than at an F1 race. Is the same guy building Kimi's engines thats building Grunholm's power steering?
It should be interesting to see if the Renaults really pick up more power with the upcoming engine changes. There could be a lot of good battles behind the red cars this year.
| erich_sc | 04-05-2004 04:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B] Is the same guy building Kimi's engines thats building Gronholm's power steering?[/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
What a strange turn of events. McLaren's engines are blowing up, and BAR's are going the distance. Kimi is starting to remind me of Jacque Villeneuve. I am very happy for the recent positive results BAR's been getting, lets hope they get a win this season. I'm hoping Sato at Suzuka. Too bad JV isn't driving for them still, it may take a long while before another Canadian is behind the wheel of an F1 car. I hope he gets a drive again, but it seems unlikely.
[B] Is the same guy building Kimi's engines thats building Gronholm's power steering?[/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
What a strange turn of events. McLaren's engines are blowing up, and BAR's are going the distance. Kimi is starting to remind me of Jacque Villeneuve. I am very happy for the recent positive results BAR's been getting, lets hope they get a win this season. I'm hoping Sato at Suzuka. Too bad JV isn't driving for them still, it may take a long while before another Canadian is behind the wheel of an F1 car. I hope he gets a drive again, but it seems unlikely.
| OnTheGas | 04-05-2004 05:10 PM |
Canadian F1 Drivers
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I wish Greg Moore was still with us, because I always thought he had a chance to make the show in F1... I could be wrong, but I thought if he was given a chance he could have done something.
I wonder if there are any Canadians in the junior formulas in Europe now which show some promise?
I wonder if there are any Canadians in the junior formulas in Europe now which show some promise?
| OnTheGas | 04-05-2004 05:45 PM |
McLaren 33% Finishing Rate So Far
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Out of 6 starts, (2 cars starting 3 races), McLaren has only had 2 finishes, (DC finished 8th @ OZ, and 6th @ Malaysia). The four starts ended in mechanical failure.
To paraphrase Animal House's Dean Wormer, "Underpowered, and unreliable is no way to build an F1 motor, son!"
I wonder if Mercedes takes on more responsibility for development and engineering of these engines. Currently these are a joint Ilmor/Mercedes production. Some folks believe that Ilmor, as an organization, has changed for the worse since co-founder Paul [b]Mor[/b]gan passed away in 2001.
To paraphrase Animal House's Dean Wormer, "Underpowered, and unreliable is no way to build an F1 motor, son!"
I wonder if Mercedes takes on more responsibility for development and engineering of these engines. Currently these are a joint Ilmor/Mercedes production. Some folks believe that Ilmor, as an organization, has changed for the worse since co-founder Paul [b]Mor[/b]gan passed away in 2001.
| AndyRoo | 04-05-2004 08:26 PM |
i know i've said it before but....SPEC TIRE PLEASE.
it wouldnt fix everything, but it would help.
it keeps the pre race predictions from sounding like "well he's on bridgestones, so hes gonna win"
it wouldnt fix everything, but it would help.
it keeps the pre race predictions from sounding like "well he's on bridgestones, so hes gonna win"
| TimStevens | 04-05-2004 08:49 PM |
Spec tire would help, but not by much. If the Bridgestones were that superior Sauber would be looking a lot better right now.
| Seeing StaRS | 04-06-2004 02:25 AM |
Re: McLaren 33% Finishing Rate So Far
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas [/i]
[B]To paraphrase Animal House's Dean Wormer, "Underpowered, and unreliable is no way to build an F1 motor, son!"
[/B][/QUOTE]
Bravo :lol:
[B]To paraphrase Animal House's Dean Wormer, "Underpowered, and unreliable is no way to build an F1 motor, son!"
[/B][/QUOTE]
Bravo :lol:
| mtbhadfield | 04-06-2004 12:04 PM |
Current standings for the impreza.net group at motorsport.com...
190. 139 Alex Hofstetter
267. 137 William Truett
424. 134 Ken March
553. 132 Brian Hadfield
625. 131 Jim Rider
866. 128 Wesley Slone
945. 127 Dylan Friedman
1027. 126 Erich Schmitke
1401. 122 Matt Phelps
122 Davis Powers
2019. 115 Lord Bass
2234. 112 Gary Lancaster
2822. 100 Andrew Sekellick
2943. 97 Steve Morris
3058. 92 Michael Fiyak
3656. 63 David Chikwem
/Brian
190. 139 Alex Hofstetter
267. 137 William Truett
424. 134 Ken March
553. 132 Brian Hadfield
625. 131 Jim Rider
866. 128 Wesley Slone
945. 127 Dylan Friedman
1027. 126 Erich Schmitke
1401. 122 Matt Phelps
122 Davis Powers
2019. 115 Lord Bass
2234. 112 Gary Lancaster
2822. 100 Andrew Sekellick
2943. 97 Steve Morris
3058. 92 Michael Fiyak
3656. 63 David Chikwem
/Brian
| AndyRoo | 04-06-2004 04:04 PM |
hmmm not doing quite as well as i did last year
| Dr. WOT | 04-07-2004 08:30 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AndyRoo [/i]
[B]i know i've said it before but....SPEC TIRE PLEASE.
it wouldnt fix everything, but it would help.
it keeps the pre race predictions from sounding like "well he's on bridgestones, so hes gonna win" [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't agree that a spec tire is the answer, and I never have. What do you do when all the cars are on the same rubber and Ferrari is still 1 second ahead? At least a tire war gives you the chance to shake up the pecking order.
Don't forget last year was a real dog fight, mostly because the Michelins were so competitive. No, spec tires are not the answer, any more than a spec motor or a spec chassis would be. That is not the point of F1.
[B]i know i've said it before but....SPEC TIRE PLEASE.
it wouldnt fix everything, but it would help.
it keeps the pre race predictions from sounding like "well he's on bridgestones, so hes gonna win" [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't agree that a spec tire is the answer, and I never have. What do you do when all the cars are on the same rubber and Ferrari is still 1 second ahead? At least a tire war gives you the chance to shake up the pecking order.
Don't forget last year was a real dog fight, mostly because the Michelins were so competitive. No, spec tires are not the answer, any more than a spec motor or a spec chassis would be. That is not the point of F1.
| TimStevens | 04-07-2004 08:37 AM |
There are reports that McLaren are planning on totally scrapping the 19 and going with a new car before Hungary... ugh...
| erich_sc | 04-07-2004 12:00 PM |
:rolleyes: oh well, can you blame them? They aren't getting anywhere with this car, again I say they should go back to the 17d or whatever it was and evolve that one.
| Arioch | 04-07-2004 12:04 PM |
Didn't McLaren say last year that they'd have the -18 out before Hungaroring...? Look where that got them. They'll be using the -18 for longer than they think, or are willing to admit.
| wrxinfx | 04-07-2004 12:11 PM |
I don't think the 18 ever raced. It was the 17-D that the used all last year, while the 18 was failing crash tests and such. This year they took a evo of the 18, called it a 19 and now they got a slow, engine eating monster on their hands. Ya, bring back the 17-D.
| BillT | 04-07-2004 12:26 PM |
Going back to the 17D is not the answer for McLaren. They want to win and not struggle to try to get into the points in 6th, 7th, or 8th position. The 17D was a good car for the 2003 season, but its performance has since been handily eclipsed by the most of the current 2004 cars. Last year KR set fastest lap in OZ with a 1:27.7, this year MS set fastest with a 1:24.1. I would think that a 3.6 second difference would be very hard, if not impossible to overcome, through development work on an already 'developed' car like the 17D. I wasn't able to find what the fastest lap set by McLaren for the 2003 Malaysian GP, but comparing fastest lap to fastest lap for that race it was 1.34.8 in 2004 by JPM and a 1.36.4 for MS - not as huge of a difference, but I couldn't find what Kimi or DC did for that race in 2003.
| gtguy | 04-07-2004 12:56 PM |
Random F1 thoughts...
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Apparently, the rumors about scrapping the -19 are true. They're coming from different sources, rather than everybody reporting on what one source said. Unfortunate. That also means that, despite what McLaren folks are saying, 2004 is a write-off for the team, which is too bad.
Man, does anyone remember the optimistic predictions about how this was going to be a five-team fight for the whole shebang, starring Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Renault and Toyota? Not so fast, says Ferrari. :lol: And nobody (I don't think) had BAR in the mix. Man, was I wrong to discount those lads.
In testing at Barcelona, Renault is testing a new-spec engine with more power, which Trulli likes a lot, but who knows? Can it get them a second a lap? It's creepy how far ahead Ferrari is right now. Then again, look at where Williams was last year, and where they ended up. And M. Schumacher had but eight points after three races last season, and look where he ended up.
The difference, some are saying, is that the cars were equally competitive last season. The Ferrari, many speculate, would have run off and hidden were they on Michelins rather than Bridgestones, but they weren't. It was a good season. But this year, Ferrari, in race trim, is impressive. Other teams can get close in single-lap situations, such as qualifying or practice. But during the first eight laps at Bahrain, Schumacher was lapping almost two seconds a lap faster than Montoya. That's huge.
Toyota is also working on getting more power and a better aero package, but the team admits that at present, Ferrari is too far gone.
The pace of development in F1 is fast, but that's for gaining tenths usually, not whole seconds. Williams should be on the pace at some point this season, and I'm not discounting Renault, either. Then there's the BAR bugbear. Davidson is always really fast in testing.
But it's that pesky race trim thing...
Finally, is anyone else sick of former F1 drivers whining about how things are? Eddie Irvine is constantly slagging Ferrari (as if it were their fault he couldn't get the job done the year Schumacher crashed---racing Irvine for a corner, one might add), and now Nigel Mansell is saying that the dollar amounts spent make the teams "look silly." "Back in my day," whine, whine, whine, says Mansell. It's as funny as when Niki Lauda said that "a monkey could drive a modern F1 car."
But when Lauda got a drive in the slow, sucky Jaguar, he made like a dervish. Give that man a banana and a turd to throw! :lol:
Kevin
Man, does anyone remember the optimistic predictions about how this was going to be a five-team fight for the whole shebang, starring Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Renault and Toyota? Not so fast, says Ferrari. :lol: And nobody (I don't think) had BAR in the mix. Man, was I wrong to discount those lads.
In testing at Barcelona, Renault is testing a new-spec engine with more power, which Trulli likes a lot, but who knows? Can it get them a second a lap? It's creepy how far ahead Ferrari is right now. Then again, look at where Williams was last year, and where they ended up. And M. Schumacher had but eight points after three races last season, and look where he ended up.
The difference, some are saying, is that the cars were equally competitive last season. The Ferrari, many speculate, would have run off and hidden were they on Michelins rather than Bridgestones, but they weren't. It was a good season. But this year, Ferrari, in race trim, is impressive. Other teams can get close in single-lap situations, such as qualifying or practice. But during the first eight laps at Bahrain, Schumacher was lapping almost two seconds a lap faster than Montoya. That's huge.
Toyota is also working on getting more power and a better aero package, but the team admits that at present, Ferrari is too far gone.
The pace of development in F1 is fast, but that's for gaining tenths usually, not whole seconds. Williams should be on the pace at some point this season, and I'm not discounting Renault, either. Then there's the BAR bugbear. Davidson is always really fast in testing.
But it's that pesky race trim thing...
Finally, is anyone else sick of former F1 drivers whining about how things are? Eddie Irvine is constantly slagging Ferrari (as if it were their fault he couldn't get the job done the year Schumacher crashed---racing Irvine for a corner, one might add), and now Nigel Mansell is saying that the dollar amounts spent make the teams "look silly." "Back in my day," whine, whine, whine, says Mansell. It's as funny as when Niki Lauda said that "a monkey could drive a modern F1 car."
But when Lauda got a drive in the slow, sucky Jaguar, he made like a dervish. Give that man a banana and a turd to throw! :lol:
Kevin
| totoherbs | 04-07-2004 01:25 PM |
Hell even the Ferrari pit crew is ahead of the others...
[img]http://www.allsportsmart.net/acatalog/mt032s.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.allsportsmart.net/acatalog/mt032s.jpg[/img]
| OnTheGas | 04-07-2004 06:06 PM |
McLaren and Mercedes On The MP4-19
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[quote][i][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=149629&FS=F1]David Coulthard being somewhat candid on the MP4-19 for BBC Radio[/URL][/i]
[b]I've certainly had winning cars more difficult to drive than this one, but it just doesn't give the necessary speed in the corners and on the straights to give you the lap time...
It's a combination of the entire package. One of the greatest strengths of the car is its ability to brake into the corners. Control systems are working very well. And it performs very strongly in that area relative to the competition. But leaving the corners, in the middle of the corners, positional ability is quite difficult, so that's where you lose the time.[/B][/quote]
Ouch! Bad news McLaren fans... Not only is the motor a problem, but the chassis is uncompetitive in the middle and exits of corners!
[quote][i][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=148460&FS=F1]Ron Denis after the Malaysian GP:[/URL][/i]
[b]We are hopeful of quite a bit coming on the car for the Spanish Grand Prix.[/b][/quote]So Kimi and DC must wrestle a slow chassis around Imola on April 23rd thru the 25th, and then hope the new bits provide a big improvement at Spain on May 7th - 9th. Keep the faith, boys! :D
So now let's here some good news from the motor boys, instead!
[quote][i][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=149520&FS=F1]Norbert Haug Vice president, Mercedes-Benz Motorsport, after both motors blew at Bahrain, giving a record of 4 blown motors in 6 starts:[/URL][/i]
[b]We now have to work even harder together as a team to put every effort into improving our reliability and competitiveness.[/b][/quote]So Mercedes is out to lunch... they're still trying to figure it out themselves!
On the other hand, to take the perspective that Ferrari currently has, things can change in a hurry. Just 4 races ago, at Suzuka, in the fall, Kimi was in a helluva good 3 way dogfight with Montoya and Michael, fighting for the championship. Maybe Mercedes and McLaren can pull rabbits out of their hats... Anything is possible in F1.
[b]I've certainly had winning cars more difficult to drive than this one, but it just doesn't give the necessary speed in the corners and on the straights to give you the lap time...
It's a combination of the entire package. One of the greatest strengths of the car is its ability to brake into the corners. Control systems are working very well. And it performs very strongly in that area relative to the competition. But leaving the corners, in the middle of the corners, positional ability is quite difficult, so that's where you lose the time.[/B][/quote]
Ouch! Bad news McLaren fans... Not only is the motor a problem, but the chassis is uncompetitive in the middle and exits of corners!
[quote][i][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=148460&FS=F1]Ron Denis after the Malaysian GP:[/URL][/i]
[b]We are hopeful of quite a bit coming on the car for the Spanish Grand Prix.[/b][/quote]So Kimi and DC must wrestle a slow chassis around Imola on April 23rd thru the 25th, and then hope the new bits provide a big improvement at Spain on May 7th - 9th. Keep the faith, boys! :D
So now let's here some good news from the motor boys, instead!
[quote][i][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=149520&FS=F1]Norbert Haug Vice president, Mercedes-Benz Motorsport, after both motors blew at Bahrain, giving a record of 4 blown motors in 6 starts:[/URL][/i]
[b]We now have to work even harder together as a team to put every effort into improving our reliability and competitiveness.[/b][/quote]So Mercedes is out to lunch... they're still trying to figure it out themselves!
On the other hand, to take the perspective that Ferrari currently has, things can change in a hurry. Just 4 races ago, at Suzuka, in the fall, Kimi was in a helluva good 3 way dogfight with Montoya and Michael, fighting for the championship. Maybe Mercedes and McLaren can pull rabbits out of their hats... Anything is possible in F1.
| AndyRoo | 04-07-2004 06:36 PM |
i agree...i dont think the season is over quite yet.
| TimStevens | 04-07-2004 07:41 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas[/i]
[B] Ouch! Bad news McLaren fans... Not only is the motor a problem, but the chassis is uncompetitive in the middle and exits of corners! [/B][/QUOTE]
I heard somewhere that McLaren were running lower downforce to try to cope with the engine's shortcomings, which would explain the lack of pace around the corners... but who knows for sure.
[B] Ouch! Bad news McLaren fans... Not only is the motor a problem, but the chassis is uncompetitive in the middle and exits of corners! [/B][/QUOTE]
I heard somewhere that McLaren were running lower downforce to try to cope with the engine's shortcomings, which would explain the lack of pace around the corners... but who knows for sure.
| finnRex | 04-07-2004 07:57 PM |
Give the only 6 time driver's champion 30 points and try to play catch up after 3 races? I think the only person that could stop Michael is Rubinho...and we all know that ain't going to happen.
Williams can do it with JPM, but it is not extremely likely. Button is surprising quite a few people, and that can aid him very much(upstart-type deal) in being a contender for the driver's championship.
I am hoping for someone to step up and give Michael and Ferrari a good run. BUT, I don't see too many teams stepping up to the plate. Then again, this is F1 and anything is possible in this crazy world.
As far as McLaren, I'd like to see them pull some amazing rabbits out of their hat, and I think they'll get their act together by season's end. Chances are it'll be too late though...
Mika
Williams can do it with JPM, but it is not extremely likely. Button is surprising quite a few people, and that can aid him very much(upstart-type deal) in being a contender for the driver's championship.
I am hoping for someone to step up and give Michael and Ferrari a good run. BUT, I don't see too many teams stepping up to the plate. Then again, this is F1 and anything is possible in this crazy world.
As far as McLaren, I'd like to see them pull some amazing rabbits out of their hat, and I think they'll get their act together by season's end. Chances are it'll be too late though...
Mika
| gtguy | 04-08-2004 11:46 AM |
I dunno, gang...I think the season is done. Stick a fork in it. Here are a few reasons why:
1. Last year was a dogfight because the cars were mostly equal, with Ferrari being held back by Bridgestone. In race trim, Ferrari is significantly faster over an extended run than anyone else. A lot faster. Teams can gain tenths. Seconds is something else altogether.
2. McLaren is scrapping the MP-4/19 for a new car to debut at Hungary. That means they aren't going to be working all that hard on the current car, which is more than a second a lap slower than the Ferrari in race trim. Wait til' next year for Woking.
3. Williams will get faster, but so will Ferrari. Don't forget that in four laps, Schumacher had almost a nine-second lead on Montoya. That's crazy. Particularly considering that both teams were on the same fuel strategy. The Ferrari is also easier to drive than any other car on the grid.
4. BAR is impressive, but Schumacher was over 30 seconds ahead of Button, until he eased up to let Barrichello form up for the team picture. And he wasn't pushing all that hard from the first pit stop on, as he knew he didn't have to. We still haven't seen the Ferrari go full-on from beginning to end, and unless some other team steps up to the plate this season, we won't.
5. Barrichello is the no. 2 driver at Ferrari. But he has the same car as Schumacher, and he still isn't as fast. He will have the odd weekend where he's unbeatable. Barrichello is good for two of those a year, and he hasn't had them yet. But race for race, lap for lap, he isn't as fast as Schumacher. Nobody is.
6. Last season, with inferior tires on the best car on the grid, Schumacher entered the fourth race of the season with only eight points, and no race wins. He proceeded to win the next three races, and went on from there. This year, he has competitive tires on the best car on the grid, and is entering the fourth race, at a track that he owns, a perfect three for three.
Barring any unreliability, which Ferrari has shown absolutely no indication of, or Schumacher hosing it off as he did with Trulli at Malaysia (helped by Coulthard, who didn't leave many options for Schumacher except for lifting, which a driver of his thuggish type is not going to do), the new points standings just don't allow a driver, barring a series of DNFs by the leader, to make up big chunks of points.
The season will still be entertaining, but Ferrari is only going to get better. And if they hire that engineer who designed the Renault "non launch control" system, as they are trying to do, it could be even worse, because Schumacher will be getting lighting starts from the front row.
Kevin
1. Last year was a dogfight because the cars were mostly equal, with Ferrari being held back by Bridgestone. In race trim, Ferrari is significantly faster over an extended run than anyone else. A lot faster. Teams can gain tenths. Seconds is something else altogether.
2. McLaren is scrapping the MP-4/19 for a new car to debut at Hungary. That means they aren't going to be working all that hard on the current car, which is more than a second a lap slower than the Ferrari in race trim. Wait til' next year for Woking.
3. Williams will get faster, but so will Ferrari. Don't forget that in four laps, Schumacher had almost a nine-second lead on Montoya. That's crazy. Particularly considering that both teams were on the same fuel strategy. The Ferrari is also easier to drive than any other car on the grid.
4. BAR is impressive, but Schumacher was over 30 seconds ahead of Button, until he eased up to let Barrichello form up for the team picture. And he wasn't pushing all that hard from the first pit stop on, as he knew he didn't have to. We still haven't seen the Ferrari go full-on from beginning to end, and unless some other team steps up to the plate this season, we won't.
5. Barrichello is the no. 2 driver at Ferrari. But he has the same car as Schumacher, and he still isn't as fast. He will have the odd weekend where he's unbeatable. Barrichello is good for two of those a year, and he hasn't had them yet. But race for race, lap for lap, he isn't as fast as Schumacher. Nobody is.
6. Last season, with inferior tires on the best car on the grid, Schumacher entered the fourth race of the season with only eight points, and no race wins. He proceeded to win the next three races, and went on from there. This year, he has competitive tires on the best car on the grid, and is entering the fourth race, at a track that he owns, a perfect three for three.
Barring any unreliability, which Ferrari has shown absolutely no indication of, or Schumacher hosing it off as he did with Trulli at Malaysia (helped by Coulthard, who didn't leave many options for Schumacher except for lifting, which a driver of his thuggish type is not going to do), the new points standings just don't allow a driver, barring a series of DNFs by the leader, to make up big chunks of points.
The season will still be entertaining, but Ferrari is only going to get better. And if they hire that engineer who designed the Renault "non launch control" system, as they are trying to do, it could be even worse, because Schumacher will be getting lighting starts from the front row.
Kevin
| AndyRoo | 04-08-2004 01:55 PM |
yeah so what
jk, things really arent looking good for anyone but the red cars. its kinda like the yankees...only they never choke, ever.
jk, things really arent looking good for anyone but the red cars. its kinda like the yankees...only they never choke, ever.
| BriDrive | 04-08-2004 02:26 PM |
Schumacher will have problems this year....I don't want to insult anyone here but I think its too early to tell and there's a little bit of overreacting on Ferrari's sealed championship at this stage.
Last year, Ferrari (Schumacher)looked dismal through the completion of race #3. Weather gave Giancarlo a victory in Brazil,
McLaren, Williams and Renault in some respect were looking like they had some key advantages that would leave Ferrari behind...
My only point is that there are many many circumstances, developments, factors, weather and qualifying and fuel strategy cards to be played over too many circuits and too many continents to make any conclusions yet.
McLaren is definitely a write-off this year...Williams, no way count them out, and BAR and Renault all the power to you both!
BriDrive ( Ferrari fan since 1984, the year they were slaughtered by McLaren-TAG )
Last year, Ferrari (Schumacher)looked dismal through the completion of race #3. Weather gave Giancarlo a victory in Brazil,
McLaren, Williams and Renault in some respect were looking like they had some key advantages that would leave Ferrari behind...
My only point is that there are many many circumstances, developments, factors, weather and qualifying and fuel strategy cards to be played over too many circuits and too many continents to make any conclusions yet.
McLaren is definitely a write-off this year...Williams, no way count them out, and BAR and Renault all the power to you both!
BriDrive ( Ferrari fan since 1984, the year they were slaughtered by McLaren-TAG )
| gtguy | 04-08-2004 04:50 PM |
Ridiculous, IMHO...
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From AutoSport:
<<FIA to put brakes on F1 speeds
Mosley voices his concern over dramatic reductions in lap times
Mosley is concerned by the rising speeds in F1
The president of the sport's governing body, Max Mosley of the FIA, is considering using his right of veto to slow the current generation of Formula 1 cars if teams cannot suggest adequate measures to do so.
Concerns have been aired recently by drivers due to rising speeds. Advances in aerodynamics, coupled to the performance gains caused by the tyre war between Bridgestone and Michelin, have caused lap times to drop dramatically as cornering speeds have escalated. Mosley says that the time to act is fast approaching.
"We are looking very carefully at possibly using powers that we have under the Concorde Agreement to reduce the performance of the cars," Mosley told the Reuters news agency. "If we conclude that the cars are too fast, then we can give notice to the teams under the Concorde Agreement which requires the technical working group to come up with proposals for slowing the cars. And they have to do that within a limited time. If they don't come up with the proposals, we have the right to impose something.
"It may be that we're worrying unnecessarily but it's all starting to look as though maybe we have got to do something. A lot of the teams have given us very accurate data. We can compare speeds, particularly in the high speed corners, with a year ago and that enables us to do it quite accurately."
Mosley can give the F1 Technical Working Group a two month deadline to come up with measures to address the situation, or else the FIA can suggest its own.
He added: "If they don't do this adequately, in our judgement obviously, then we give the technical working group three alternative packages of measures and they have to choose one of the three.">>
Jeez Louise, it's not as if the cars are flying off the track or anything. Everybody has plenty of grip to go along with that additional speed, from what I can see. And the cars are as safe as they have ever been.
If this is a backhanded approach to level the playing field, all they have to do is return to slicks, and give the cars cast iron brake rotors. You'll see plenty of passing. Minardi will still be Minardi, but passing would certainly increase.
Ferrari starts kicking out the jams and suddenly, stuff is wrong---points, speeds, money, testing, etc.
Ridiculous.
Kevin
<<FIA to put brakes on F1 speeds
Mosley voices his concern over dramatic reductions in lap times
Mosley is concerned by the rising speeds in F1
The president of the sport's governing body, Max Mosley of the FIA, is considering using his right of veto to slow the current generation of Formula 1 cars if teams cannot suggest adequate measures to do so.
Concerns have been aired recently by drivers due to rising speeds. Advances in aerodynamics, coupled to the performance gains caused by the tyre war between Bridgestone and Michelin, have caused lap times to drop dramatically as cornering speeds have escalated. Mosley says that the time to act is fast approaching.
"We are looking very carefully at possibly using powers that we have under the Concorde Agreement to reduce the performance of the cars," Mosley told the Reuters news agency. "If we conclude that the cars are too fast, then we can give notice to the teams under the Concorde Agreement which requires the technical working group to come up with proposals for slowing the cars. And they have to do that within a limited time. If they don't come up with the proposals, we have the right to impose something.
"It may be that we're worrying unnecessarily but it's all starting to look as though maybe we have got to do something. A lot of the teams have given us very accurate data. We can compare speeds, particularly in the high speed corners, with a year ago and that enables us to do it quite accurately."
Mosley can give the F1 Technical Working Group a two month deadline to come up with measures to address the situation, or else the FIA can suggest its own.
He added: "If they don't do this adequately, in our judgement obviously, then we give the technical working group three alternative packages of measures and they have to choose one of the three.">>
Jeez Louise, it's not as if the cars are flying off the track or anything. Everybody has plenty of grip to go along with that additional speed, from what I can see. And the cars are as safe as they have ever been.
If this is a backhanded approach to level the playing field, all they have to do is return to slicks, and give the cars cast iron brake rotors. You'll see plenty of passing. Minardi will still be Minardi, but passing would certainly increase.
Ferrari starts kicking out the jams and suddenly, stuff is wrong---points, speeds, money, testing, etc.
Ridiculous.
Kevin
| gtguy | 04-08-2004 04:58 PM |
And this from GrandPrix.com
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Is it all about F1 safety?
Experienced Formula 1 observers tend to be very cynical people because of the games that they have seen played over the years in Grand Prix racing. Thus when there appears to be a flash-bang grenade of news, the cynics tend to look elsewhere rather than concentrate on the news being broken because, like all good magicians, the F1 bosses are probably up to something less obvious than appears to be the case.
The Formula 1 cars are a lot faster than they used to be but is the increase in speed sufficient to have any real worries about safety? The FIA has very advanced computer modelling techniques which can predict the point at which things need to be changed but on the race tracks we have seen no obvious evidence that the cars have become too dangerous and need to be slowed down. We have not had a serious accident so far this year, in fact drivers are so worried about damaging their cars these days that the number of crashes has reduced considerably because the need to get through the weekend to race day without drama is vital. And the pressure is on to finish races as well because of the need for points.
Thus there are no obvious signs that safety is an issue, beyond the fact that the lap times are reducing.
This inevitably leads to the question of whether or not there is more to this than meets the eye. Clearly, from his comments, the FIA President Max Mosley has something in mind and knows that the Technical World Group is unlikely to agree on anything. Might his be a lever to get the teams to agree to something else? Or perhaps it is even more convoluted than that and the story is breaking because the FIA wants to draw attention away from other stories.
At the moment there is a lot of talk of crisis in F1 circles and throwing a new element into the picture may serve to draw attention away from the real problems and create debate on other matters.
Those who look at F1 in this light are often accused of being conspiracy theorists but, generally-speaking they are the ones who get closer to the truth rather than those who get dizzy chasing around after every scrap of meat thrown out by the big players in the sport.
Right now, it is impossible to judge what is going - but time will certainly reveal more.
We await developments with interest...
Experienced Formula 1 observers tend to be very cynical people because of the games that they have seen played over the years in Grand Prix racing. Thus when there appears to be a flash-bang grenade of news, the cynics tend to look elsewhere rather than concentrate on the news being broken because, like all good magicians, the F1 bosses are probably up to something less obvious than appears to be the case.
The Formula 1 cars are a lot faster than they used to be but is the increase in speed sufficient to have any real worries about safety? The FIA has very advanced computer modelling techniques which can predict the point at which things need to be changed but on the race tracks we have seen no obvious evidence that the cars have become too dangerous and need to be slowed down. We have not had a serious accident so far this year, in fact drivers are so worried about damaging their cars these days that the number of crashes has reduced considerably because the need to get through the weekend to race day without drama is vital. And the pressure is on to finish races as well because of the need for points.
Thus there are no obvious signs that safety is an issue, beyond the fact that the lap times are reducing.
This inevitably leads to the question of whether or not there is more to this than meets the eye. Clearly, from his comments, the FIA President Max Mosley has something in mind and knows that the Technical World Group is unlikely to agree on anything. Might his be a lever to get the teams to agree to something else? Or perhaps it is even more convoluted than that and the story is breaking because the FIA wants to draw attention away from other stories.
At the moment there is a lot of talk of crisis in F1 circles and throwing a new element into the picture may serve to draw attention away from the real problems and create debate on other matters.
Those who look at F1 in this light are often accused of being conspiracy theorists but, generally-speaking they are the ones who get closer to the truth rather than those who get dizzy chasing around after every scrap of meat thrown out by the big players in the sport.
Right now, it is impossible to judge what is going - but time will certainly reveal more.
We await developments with interest...
| wrxinfx | 04-08-2004 05:04 PM |
Max's agenda maybe to bring a rules shakeup (a.k.a. "the great equalizer") and bring the top teams in line with one another, yet again.
| gtguy | 04-08-2004 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrxinfx [/i]
[B]Max's agenda maybe to bring a rules shakeup (a.k.a. "the great equalizer") and bring the top teams in line with one another, yet again. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what most folks think, but is it Ferrari's fault that they've done their homework? I admit to not understanding this one, but I suppose further developments will clarify matters.
Kevin
[B]Max's agenda maybe to bring a rules shakeup (a.k.a. "the great equalizer") and bring the top teams in line with one another, yet again. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what most folks think, but is it Ferrari's fault that they've done their homework? I admit to not understanding this one, but I suppose further developments will clarify matters.
Kevin
| AndyRoo | 04-08-2004 10:13 PM |
bah thats ridiculous
| totoherbs | 04-08-2004 11:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gtguy[/i]
[B] That's what most folks think, but is it Ferrari's fault that they've done their homework? I admit to not understanding this one, but I suppose further developments will clarify matters.
Kevin [/B][/QUOTE]
Ya... im sorry ferrari did thier homework; spent thier money and time. They win the races thats the end of it. No "the great equalizer" will do anything but screw everything up and be a jip for the fans of f1.
[B] That's what most folks think, but is it Ferrari's fault that they've done their homework? I admit to not understanding this one, but I suppose further developments will clarify matters.
Kevin [/B][/QUOTE]
Ya... im sorry ferrari did thier homework; spent thier money and time. They win the races thats the end of it. No "the great equalizer" will do anything but screw everything up and be a jip for the fans of f1.
| OnTheGas | 04-09-2004 12:25 PM |
Strip The Wings Off Those Suckers
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gtguy [/i]
[B]From AutoSport:
...Concerns have been aired recently by drivers due to rising speeds. Advances in aerodynamics, coupled to the performance gains caused by the tyre war between Bridgestone and Michelin, have caused lap times to drop dramatically as cornering speeds have escalated...
Mosley said, "...A lot of the teams have given us very accurate data. We can compare speeds, particularly in the high speed corners, with a year ago and that enables us to do it quite accurately."[/B][/QUOTE]
Max and the drivers are problably correct. I don't see how we can deny their point when comparing the laptimes run this season at Sepang and Albert Park vs. last year, and the year prior. This is a legitimate problem.
The dangers seem obvious to me... Soon a track can't be built safe enough to run F1 cars, unless they emasculate the high speed corners by inserting chicanes before, in the middle, and at the end of such corners. Ironically, our next race on the calendar is Imola, a perfect example of such a dastardly emasculation to what was once a beautiful, flowing, challenging track. Those of you who saw Imola before 1995 know what I'm talking about. This was not always a point and squirt circuit.
Beyond the danger factor, [b]the racing would be much better[/b] with less aero grip. It would be nice to see F1 cars run nose to tail in high speed corners. There would likely be much more on-track passing, and the challenge would be greater to the drivers, as they will spend more time on the cornering limit feathering the throttle, instead of foot flat to floor full acceleration. If the wings are reduced, so that the cars are not as vulnerable to the aero wake of the car in front of them, racing would be tighter, on track passing would happen more frequently, and I would be a happy camper.
Finally, on a technical note, mechanical grip advances are much more likely to be seen on road cars.
Max, strip all the freaking wings off these suckers, so that they look like a parade of extremely expensive and powerful Formula Vee cars! It would be awesome to see F1 drivers in 5, and 10 car long trains dogfighting nose to tail around the track lap after lap...
:D
[B]From AutoSport:
...Concerns have been aired recently by drivers due to rising speeds. Advances in aerodynamics, coupled to the performance gains caused by the tyre war between Bridgestone and Michelin, have caused lap times to drop dramatically as cornering speeds have escalated...
Mosley said, "...A lot of the teams have given us very accurate data. We can compare speeds, particularly in the high speed corners, with a year ago and that enables us to do it quite accurately."[/B][/QUOTE]
Max and the drivers are problably correct. I don't see how we can deny their point when comparing the laptimes run this season at Sepang and Albert Park vs. last year, and the year prior. This is a legitimate problem.
The dangers seem obvious to me... Soon a track can't be built safe enough to run F1 cars, unless they emasculate the high speed corners by inserting chicanes before, in the middle, and at the end of such corners. Ironically, our next race on the calendar is Imola, a perfect example of such a dastardly emasculation to what was once a beautiful, flowing, challenging track. Those of you who saw Imola before 1995 know what I'm talking about. This was not always a point and squirt circuit.
Beyond the danger factor, [b]the racing would be much better[/b] with less aero grip. It would be nice to see F1 cars run nose to tail in high speed corners. There would likely be much more on-track passing, and the challenge would be greater to the drivers, as they will spend more time on the cornering limit feathering the throttle, instead of foot flat to floor full acceleration. If the wings are reduced, so that the cars are not as vulnerable to the aero wake of the car in front of them, racing would be tighter, on track passing would happen more frequently, and I would be a happy camper.
Finally, on a technical note, mechanical grip advances are much more likely to be seen on road cars.
Max, strip all the freaking wings off these suckers, so that they look like a parade of extremely expensive and powerful Formula Vee cars! It would be awesome to see F1 drivers in 5, and 10 car long trains dogfighting nose to tail around the track lap after lap...
:D
| gtguy | 04-09-2004 02:36 PM |
I dunno, OTG. It looks to me, and other observers that at present, the cars can handle the speed, no problem. Nobody is crashing, or showing any indicatiors of excessive speed being a problem. Lap times are coming down primarily as a result of the tire war. Move to a spec tire and give them cast iron rotors. Cornering speeds will have to come down, because the braking allowed by carbon rotors will no longer be a factor.
There is something else behind this "news." I don't know if there is some technical regulation that Mosley wants them to consent to, of if cost and or testing reductions are the real issue, but there's something working that we don't know about...yet.
Yes, the cars are going about three seconds per lap faster. In Formula One, that is definitely a lot of time gain. And I know, should we wait until people start flying off the tracks before doing something? Good question. Frankly, I don't think that will happen. Mechanical and aerodynamic grip are such that cars aren't having any problems at present.
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop...
Kevin
There is something else behind this "news." I don't know if there is some technical regulation that Mosley wants them to consent to, of if cost and or testing reductions are the real issue, but there's something working that we don't know about...yet.
Yes, the cars are going about three seconds per lap faster. In Formula One, that is definitely a lot of time gain. And I know, should we wait until people start flying off the tracks before doing something? Good question. Frankly, I don't think that will happen. Mechanical and aerodynamic grip are such that cars aren't having any problems at present.
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop...
Kevin
| finnRex | 04-09-2004 08:59 PM |
+Think it might have something to do with an already cash strapped F1? If Ferrari continues to walk away, who's gonna show up to the races besides the Ferrari fans(tifosi-sp?)? I don't think too many McLaren fans will show up this year. I mean, I'll go to the U.S. Grand Prix(as a McLaren fan, at that), but how many people will go?
I think a part has to do with $$$, and it's a bigger part than they would like to admit. Keep the competition close, and people who are on the fence may be more willing to drop some cash.
That's just a theory from me. But it makes sense. I agree with Kevin in that the technology and safety is there. Max has something in his mind, he's just trying to find a "legit" route.
Mika
I think a part has to do with $$$, and it's a bigger part than they would like to admit. Keep the competition close, and people who are on the fence may be more willing to drop some cash.
That's just a theory from me. But it makes sense. I agree with Kevin in that the technology and safety is there. Max has something in his mind, he's just trying to find a "legit" route.
Mika
| Lafora | 04-09-2004 10:00 PM |
Ferrari doens't have the biggest budget in F1
Toyota does
and loook where they are :rolleyes:.
Toyota does
and loook where they are :rolleyes:.
| gtguy | 04-09-2004 10:30 PM |
My guess is that Mosley wants testing reductions, and further cost cuts. I'm betting that all the development that went into the long-life engines didn't reduce costs all that much. I'm betting they will also go after absolutely no driver aids. Renault and their "clutch control" system is but one example. Now Ferrari is trying to hire the guy who designed that system for Renault, as it is apparently legal.
Give teams endless money and rules to figure a way around, and they will...every time.
Testing limitations would reduce budgets significantly. Ferrari is the biggest roadblock to a testing limitation, obviously because they own two tracks. :lol: But if the FIA says one tire manufacturer only, that limits testing, as the bulk of the test mileage was to figure out tires and how they worked.
Teams are going to figure out how to design a great car. That's unavoidable. I think the longevity of the Ferrari winning streak is driving the FIA nuts, because no matter what they do, those buggers just keep winning. :lol:
I don't like it, if whatever this is turns out to be aimed at Ferrari, because the other teams are supposed to raise their bar, rather than the FIA stepping like a regulatory nanny, to bring one team down to the others.
Kevin
Give teams endless money and rules to figure a way around, and they will...every time.
Testing limitations would reduce budgets significantly. Ferrari is the biggest roadblock to a testing limitation, obviously because they own two tracks. :lol: But if the FIA says one tire manufacturer only, that limits testing, as the bulk of the test mileage was to figure out tires and how they worked.
Teams are going to figure out how to design a great car. That's unavoidable. I think the longevity of the Ferrari winning streak is driving the FIA nuts, because no matter what they do, those buggers just keep winning. :lol:
I don't like it, if whatever this is turns out to be aimed at Ferrari, because the other teams are supposed to raise their bar, rather than the FIA stepping like a regulatory nanny, to bring one team down to the others.
Kevin
| AndyRoo | 04-10-2004 02:29 AM |
well toyota just started...they arent gonna instantly be the best just cause they are throwing a crapload of money at it. They are making some decent progress.
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