| NC2.5RS | 05-27-2004 11:58 PM |
Why would they even really consider moving a car that is by no means dominant in one class to a class where the car wouldnt even be competitive at all? Stupid stupid idea for an RS to be in STX.
| bvondran | 05-28-2004 06:50 AM |
Sent my letter in. With all the negative talk here and on the ST yahoo group, I hope this thing can be defeated! A big thank you to everyone who wrote letters in support of the RS. I certainly dont want to compete against KC and Tom and Steve in my lightly powered RS!!!
Brian
Brian
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 08:35 AM |
The way I look at it.....The RS has 2 advantages on the WRX....Weight...and gearing......other than that its the WRX that has all the check marks....SCCA should have a standard class for Everything....and if you think they do...then you havn't seen a Porsche Ceyanne turbo with its 5000 lbs go around the course in FS... and actually do pretty decent....I am not saying they need a Subaru Specific class....just something for todays cars....the classes they have now and some of them since the beginning of SOLO 2....are outdated....the Stock classes are OK for the most part....Where the revamp needs to happen is the Street Prepared, prepared, Street touring and modified classes. I mean...maybe the SCCA should compile ALL the results from every region, including all Local, Regional, and national events.. for like 6 monthes and do an analysis on it....to come up with a fairer classes....Better Pax index....and better knowledge of where a car would go...( What class a new vehicle goes into)....if it were done this way....Not everyone is national level driver...SCCA Solo2 is more popular than ever..with an avg of 100 cars per event being the norm...for more populated areas....SCCA should be able to complile all the data....and realistically come up with better classes for everyone.....It should also be a requirement for each Region to submit those results to the SCCA for evaluation....Why would that help, it would provide some relief for Local drivers that either can't afford to FULLY prep a Car for their class...it would give those guys (the back bone of the sport) a chance to be more competitive...and if be more fair....My understanding is that the SCCA is going to reevaluate PAX this year anyways.... and that STX/STU/STS is going to get a higher index....based off the national events so far....so the 'cushion' that most have enjoyed in those classes for overall is going to be jeapordized in 05....(This is according to my REGION rep, that is on the SEB and listens to complaints VERY carefully, said to me the other day)....Most of us that do this, do it for fun and try to better our driving skills, But to outright make someone not competitive because of how someone did at a national event is ludacris...The fallout from this potential burr in the saddle will be felt all the way down to the kid that just got a RS and wants to learn how to drive it....how it reacts....and somewhat be competitive with his peers....
Sorry for the rant....
Bill
Sorry for the rant....
Bill
| TheWRX | 05-28-2004 08:45 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby South [/i]
[B]My understanding is that the SCCA is going to reevaluate PAX this year anyways....[/B][/QUOTE]
The SCCA has nothing to do with the PAX. One or two people in the Chicago region come up with the numbers, and they are adopted by many regions for their index competition.
I'm not sure if compiling local results would be very useful to help classing. On that level, results often have very little to do with what cars people are driving. The variation in skill level is just too large to get significant data out of that.
I agree that the current class structure is far from ideal. But if you completely revise it, you'll screw all the people who prepared their car for a certain class. Which means a lot of unhappy SCCA members...
[B]My understanding is that the SCCA is going to reevaluate PAX this year anyways....[/B][/QUOTE]
The SCCA has nothing to do with the PAX. One or two people in the Chicago region come up with the numbers, and they are adopted by many regions for their index competition.
I'm not sure if compiling local results would be very useful to help classing. On that level, results often have very little to do with what cars people are driving. The variation in skill level is just too large to get significant data out of that.
I agree that the current class structure is far from ideal. But if you completely revise it, you'll screw all the people who prepared their car for a certain class. Which means a lot of unhappy SCCA members...
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 08:57 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B] The variation in skill level is just too large to get significant data out of that.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thats the point.....then you take the avg out of all that and revamp the classes with REAL data....not some hotshoe that can jump into any car and do well....Do it for the REAL people...that would make it fairer....as for the PAX....The national guys SWEAR by it.....on tour or whatever....ASK TH....he's a PAX lubber..;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]I agree that the current class structure is far from ideal. But if you completely revise it, you'll screw all the people who prepared their car for a certain class. Which means a lot of unhappy SCCA members... [/B][/QUOTE]
True that...I am not saying dump the whole thing like that...just RECLASS them....if a car is prepped for Street prepared...then it would not matter if it were ASP or DSP.....Same Rules...So to think that some SCCA members....would be mad...there car is still prepped for that arena...just might not be that particular class. I don't think it be the fallout that your saying...a Reclassing yes...but not out of modified....prepared or street prep.....if you see what I am sayiing...
if a car is in DSP normally.....and now its moved because the car got reclassed....to say ESP...he's still a SP car.....
Bill
[B] The variation in skill level is just too large to get significant data out of that.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thats the point.....then you take the avg out of all that and revamp the classes with REAL data....not some hotshoe that can jump into any car and do well....Do it for the REAL people...that would make it fairer....as for the PAX....The national guys SWEAR by it.....on tour or whatever....ASK TH....he's a PAX lubber..;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]I agree that the current class structure is far from ideal. But if you completely revise it, you'll screw all the people who prepared their car for a certain class. Which means a lot of unhappy SCCA members... [/B][/QUOTE]
True that...I am not saying dump the whole thing like that...just RECLASS them....if a car is prepped for Street prepared...then it would not matter if it were ASP or DSP.....Same Rules...So to think that some SCCA members....would be mad...there car is still prepped for that arena...just might not be that particular class. I don't think it be the fallout that your saying...a Reclassing yes...but not out of modified....prepared or street prep.....if you see what I am sayiing...
if a car is in DSP normally.....and now its moved because the car got reclassed....to say ESP...he's still a SP car.....
Bill
| trhoppe | 05-28-2004 09:29 AM |
Bill, PAX and classing HAS to be done for national events and their drivers. Like theWRX said, at the local/regional level there is too much variation in driver skill to class cars.
One region might have some awesome drivers in MR2s while another will have awesome drivers in corvettes or subarus or whatever. You can't base classing or pax on that.
If you did that in THSCC, you would think that a Celica, MR2 Spyder, 325is, and Subarus are the best autox cars evAr. That would be making a huge mistake. It just happens that the better drivers in the club are in those cars......
-Tom
One region might have some awesome drivers in MR2s while another will have awesome drivers in corvettes or subarus or whatever. You can't base classing or pax on that.
If you did that in THSCC, you would think that a Celica, MR2 Spyder, 325is, and Subarus are the best autox cars evAr. That would be making a huge mistake. It just happens that the better drivers in the club are in those cars......
-Tom
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 09:44 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Bill, PAX and classing HAS to be done for national events and their drivers. Like theWRX said, at the local/regional level there is too much variation in driver skill to class cars.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
But you KNOW it would be more fair especially for the Variation...that would take a GOOD avg of all those to get proper pax and Classing...I mean I understand what your saying....But the REST of the chaps suffer just because some dude took off 3 sec in a MR2 at the nationals....in a FULLY prepped car....How is that fair to the little guy who has a MR2 that can't afford tires...but wants to be as competive as the next guy...Look...everyone that goes to a national event spends BUKOO dollars to ensure they have the right setup.....so everyone suffers from that guy who spent $XXXX to make his car competitive at nationals...You know that MOST of the local guys don't even have tires ....maybe they should reimplement a Street tire class for all....split it up like they were thinking about a couple of years ago....and come out with seperate indexs for the two.....not everyone can afford new stickies every couple of events.....You know what I am saying I think....
Example: Your WRX fully prepped for D stock back in the day versus some NooB with a brand new WRX that maybe autox'd his old caviliar....and knows Basically what he's doing....He has a brand new car....with RE92's on...and you on your Hoosiers...and just for giggle...he is as good a driver as you are....So Thats fair for him to try and beat you just because you had your car to the extreme limits of the rules....I don't think so...at nationals thats different....I aggree with all that... but for local/Divisonal's...it should be looked at closer..thats what I am saying....
Bill
[B]Bill, PAX and classing HAS to be done for national events and their drivers. Like theWRX said, at the local/regional level there is too much variation in driver skill to class cars.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
But you KNOW it would be more fair especially for the Variation...that would take a GOOD avg of all those to get proper pax and Classing...I mean I understand what your saying....But the REST of the chaps suffer just because some dude took off 3 sec in a MR2 at the nationals....in a FULLY prepped car....How is that fair to the little guy who has a MR2 that can't afford tires...but wants to be as competive as the next guy...Look...everyone that goes to a national event spends BUKOO dollars to ensure they have the right setup.....so everyone suffers from that guy who spent $XXXX to make his car competitive at nationals...You know that MOST of the local guys don't even have tires ....maybe they should reimplement a Street tire class for all....split it up like they were thinking about a couple of years ago....and come out with seperate indexs for the two.....not everyone can afford new stickies every couple of events.....You know what I am saying I think....
Example: Your WRX fully prepped for D stock back in the day versus some NooB with a brand new WRX that maybe autox'd his old caviliar....and knows Basically what he's doing....He has a brand new car....with RE92's on...and you on your Hoosiers...and just for giggle...he is as good a driver as you are....So Thats fair for him to try and beat you just because you had your car to the extreme limits of the rules....I don't think so...at nationals thats different....I aggree with all that... but for local/Divisonal's...it should be looked at closer..thats what I am saying....
Bill
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 09:56 AM |
look ....most of that are replying to this thread....know what we are doing...for the most part.....most here have national level experience in whatever classes...I am just trying to think of your friend that just got his....XXXX car and wants to race, and be competive....Everyone knows theres a learning curve....but just because dude put a blow off valve on a STOCK WRX....with RE92's and everything...makes him automatically go to SM....Real fair huh....not in my opinion... It just erkesss me to no end that stuff like that is dictacted by WHAT happens at the national level...
Bill
Bill
| trhoppe | 05-28-2004 10:02 AM |
It can't be though!!!! I don't understand how you can't see that.
What if that region only runs Subarus on RE92s. Then I come in with my car and Hoosiers on the car and wipe everyone out on pax by 2 seconds. How fair would THAT be.
What youre suggesting is that we allow anyone out there to win. No, if you want to win, you need to prepare your car according to the rules and prepare your driving to be good. If you come out on RE92s in a D-stock car, prepare to have FUN, but not to WIN.
Also, youre forgetting the driver skill factor. A lot of people think that the national level guys are fast because they have a nationally prepped car. Talking **** here, (and man does it sound cocky) but Mike King and I could come out to a Subaru Challenge event, take out a bone stock WRX on RE92s and wipe out STX (and probably pax near the very very top) . It would have nothing to do with "car prep" ;)
-Tom
What if that region only runs Subarus on RE92s. Then I come in with my car and Hoosiers on the car and wipe everyone out on pax by 2 seconds. How fair would THAT be.
What youre suggesting is that we allow anyone out there to win. No, if you want to win, you need to prepare your car according to the rules and prepare your driving to be good. If you come out on RE92s in a D-stock car, prepare to have FUN, but not to WIN.
Also, youre forgetting the driver skill factor. A lot of people think that the national level guys are fast because they have a nationally prepped car. Talking **** here, (and man does it sound cocky) but Mike King and I could come out to a Subaru Challenge event, take out a bone stock WRX on RE92s and wipe out STX (and probably pax near the very very top) . It would have nothing to do with "car prep" ;)
-Tom
| jbrennen | 05-28-2004 10:12 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby South [/i]
[B]I am just trying to think of your friend that just got his....XXXX car and wants to race, and be competive...
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm with you except for the part about being competitive.
Being competitive in any sport requires a commitment -- either of time or of money or both. Mess with that formula and you might as well call it an exhibition rather than a competition. Give everybody a prize just for participating -- like the track meet I attended when I was like 9 or 10 years old; hey, 4th place in the one mile run, here's your ribbon!
Last year I was in the situation you describe -- I just got a new Evo and I took it autoXing, totally bone stock. Of course, I didn't win. But I didn't expect to. And I had a blast.
[B]I am just trying to think of your friend that just got his....XXXX car and wants to race, and be competive...
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm with you except for the part about being competitive.
Being competitive in any sport requires a commitment -- either of time or of money or both. Mess with that formula and you might as well call it an exhibition rather than a competition. Give everybody a prize just for participating -- like the track meet I attended when I was like 9 or 10 years old; hey, 4th place in the one mile run, here's your ribbon!
Last year I was in the situation you describe -- I just got a new Evo and I took it autoXing, totally bone stock. Of course, I didn't win. But I didn't expect to. And I had a blast.
| del105 | 05-28-2004 10:16 AM |
[QUOTE]Talking **** here, (and man does it sound cocky) but Mike King and I could come out to a Subaru Challenge event, take out a bone stock WRX on RE92s and wipe out STX (and probably pax near the very very top) . It would have nothing to do with "car prep" [/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
| wrx2.0 555 | 05-28-2004 10:17 AM |
Maybe, what some are missing from Bill's point is the fact that a National average from local events would include all of the national competitors. AND, we need to understand how many people we're talking about here that will make up the average. How many people run solo II across the country?
I agree with Bill. It doesnt make much sense to have what one person does at nationals, in a particular car, effect the entire nation of auto-x's.
Scott
P.S. I'm still confused on how a stock WRX is expected to be competitive with a stock ITR :confused:
I agree with Bill. It doesnt make much sense to have what one person does at nationals, in a particular car, effect the entire nation of auto-x's.
Scott
P.S. I'm still confused on how a stock WRX is expected to be competitive with a stock ITR :confused:
| trhoppe | 05-28-2004 10:19 AM |
Just to emphasize my (and jbrennen's) point. It takes national level prep and commitment to win. If you want to have fun all it takes is a car. Don't expect to come out with a stock car and win, I just don't see how thats "unfair".
It seems like what you want is to have a class for every car. Oh, you have a blue WRX with a BOV valve and a boost controller on RE92s? Yea, your class will be BWBC9 and you'll be car #1.....You can collect your 1st place trophy after the event....
-Tom
It seems like what you want is to have a class for every car. Oh, you have a blue WRX with a BOV valve and a boost controller on RE92s? Yea, your class will be BWBC9 and you'll be car #1.....You can collect your 1st place trophy after the event....
-Tom
| del105 | 05-28-2004 10:21 AM |
PAX should be broken up Prosolo, national, divisional, regional.
I just seems like a huge pain in the ass for no reason.
I just seems like a huge pain in the ass for no reason.
| trhoppe | 05-28-2004 10:23 AM |
BUT IT CAN'T BE BROKEN UP REGIONALLY. Some regions have fast drivers in some cars and not in others. It would be artificial and be TOTALLY ****ED if someone switched cars or a new driver showed up.
ProSolo pax is already different the Solo2 pax.
-Tom
ProSolo pax is already different the Solo2 pax.
-Tom
| del105 | 05-28-2004 10:29 AM |
Tom, don't you need to start driving to DC or something?
| KC | 05-28-2004 10:36 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] BUT IT CAN'T BE BROKEN UP REGIONALLY. Some regions have fast drivers in some cars and not in others. It would be artificial and be TOTALLY ****ED if someone switched cars or a new driver showed up.
ProSolo pax is already different the Solo2 pax.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
To illustrate this point... the east coast doesn't have many fast drivers in RWD cars... how many corvettes at nationals come from Texas, Fl, Cali, vs the rest?
There are areas in ths coutry where a certain type of car is the dominant one.
If we ever had a shootout between South, East Coast, West Coast, Midwest and North West Subarus, I would say that, for the most part, east coast would win... becuase for the weather and such, we drive these cars... just like RWD cars in the south.
Try doing something nationally where all cars are the same and eqaul? Let's not forget temperature/weather differences on any different sunday in this country. :)
--kC
[B] BUT IT CAN'T BE BROKEN UP REGIONALLY. Some regions have fast drivers in some cars and not in others. It would be artificial and be TOTALLY ****ED if someone switched cars or a new driver showed up.
ProSolo pax is already different the Solo2 pax.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
To illustrate this point... the east coast doesn't have many fast drivers in RWD cars... how many corvettes at nationals come from Texas, Fl, Cali, vs the rest?
There are areas in ths coutry where a certain type of car is the dominant one.
If we ever had a shootout between South, East Coast, West Coast, Midwest and North West Subarus, I would say that, for the most part, east coast would win... becuase for the weather and such, we drive these cars... just like RWD cars in the south.
Try doing something nationally where all cars are the same and eqaul? Let's not forget temperature/weather differences on any different sunday in this country. :)
--kC
| MNbiker | 05-28-2004 10:51 AM |
Bill,
You have me in a near-total state of confusion:confused:
(not that it's a new feeling...:p )
First, regarding PAX - have you actually read the description of how it's calculated? Rick Ruth of Chicago Region SCCA spends TONS of time trying to come up with PAX factors that most accurately represent the relative competitiveness of various classes, across a wide range of events. Also, the PAX factors change every year, based on ACTUAL results. Is it perfect? No. Could I do a better job? No way!
From personal experience, I can tell you PAX generally does work. Locally, we run most events on small, asphalt lots that don't really match the conditions used at most events PAX calculations are based on. Even considering this, the acknowledged top drivers in our region typically PAX at or near the top at events, NO MATTER WHAT CAR THEY DRIVE. There are exceptions, like a top driver in a REALLY inferior car (think 70's-era Caprice Classic on UTOQ 500 tires) or a mid-pack driver in a REALLY well-prepped car, but they're relatively rare.
Regarding classing, SCCA classing MUST be based on National-level competitiveness, as SCCA's direct responsibility is at a national level. There will ALWAYS be some cars that are more competitive than others - unless you create a class for every single car and every single level of preparation, there will always be "cars to have" and "dogs". Of course, everyone wants THEIR car to be the "one to have", but it simply doesn't work that way.
NOTHING in the rules precludes local/regional clubs from coming up with their own classing that more accurately reflects the local mix of cars. Many clubs, including my local club, have created our own classes to supplement the SCCA classes. IMHO - the best way to "fix" things at a local level is to create classes for the extremes in driver skill - a PRO class for the top drivers and a NOVICE class for the newbies. With these two extremes removed from the equation, things tend to equal out pretty well.
-Steve
You have me in a near-total state of confusion:confused:
(not that it's a new feeling...:p )
First, regarding PAX - have you actually read the description of how it's calculated? Rick Ruth of Chicago Region SCCA spends TONS of time trying to come up with PAX factors that most accurately represent the relative competitiveness of various classes, across a wide range of events. Also, the PAX factors change every year, based on ACTUAL results. Is it perfect? No. Could I do a better job? No way!
From personal experience, I can tell you PAX generally does work. Locally, we run most events on small, asphalt lots that don't really match the conditions used at most events PAX calculations are based on. Even considering this, the acknowledged top drivers in our region typically PAX at or near the top at events, NO MATTER WHAT CAR THEY DRIVE. There are exceptions, like a top driver in a REALLY inferior car (think 70's-era Caprice Classic on UTOQ 500 tires) or a mid-pack driver in a REALLY well-prepped car, but they're relatively rare.
Regarding classing, SCCA classing MUST be based on National-level competitiveness, as SCCA's direct responsibility is at a national level. There will ALWAYS be some cars that are more competitive than others - unless you create a class for every single car and every single level of preparation, there will always be "cars to have" and "dogs". Of course, everyone wants THEIR car to be the "one to have", but it simply doesn't work that way.
NOTHING in the rules precludes local/regional clubs from coming up with their own classing that more accurately reflects the local mix of cars. Many clubs, including my local club, have created our own classes to supplement the SCCA classes. IMHO - the best way to "fix" things at a local level is to create classes for the extremes in driver skill - a PRO class for the top drivers and a NOVICE class for the newbies. With these two extremes removed from the equation, things tend to equal out pretty well.
-Steve
| Warp3 | 05-28-2004 10:52 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by del105 [/i]
[B]PAX should be broken up Prosolo, national, divisional, regional.[/B][/QUOTE]
I can see this having 3 effects on the "regional" PAX if this were done:
(a) The Stock, Street Touring and Street Prepared PAX indices will be virtual clones of their "national" counterparts (not in actual values, but related to other S/ST/SP classes) as many regional competitors are actually decently close to their class prep rules in these classes.
(b) The Street Modified, Prepared and Modified indices would be horribly skewed (on the low side) due to woefully unprepared cars at a regional level.
(c) The people that actually prepare their cars to the class limits would absolutely destroy PAX in the new "weaker" upper classes on a regional level.
(Supplemental: ...and people will still cry "unfair" that their WRX with a BOV is facing off against Bob Tunnel's M3 in Street Modified, so it doesn't really change anything in that regard anyway.)
While I completely see your reasoning (and I used to think the same way), it's just not practical. Expecting to be competitive in a car that does not meet the car prep rules, is simply insane. You wouldn't show up at a bike marathon on the cheapest 10-speed bike you could find from Wal-mart and expect to win, would you? :lol:
Shane -- SM 729
[B]PAX should be broken up Prosolo, national, divisional, regional.[/B][/QUOTE]
I can see this having 3 effects on the "regional" PAX if this were done:
(a) The Stock, Street Touring and Street Prepared PAX indices will be virtual clones of their "national" counterparts (not in actual values, but related to other S/ST/SP classes) as many regional competitors are actually decently close to their class prep rules in these classes.
(b) The Street Modified, Prepared and Modified indices would be horribly skewed (on the low side) due to woefully unprepared cars at a regional level.
(c) The people that actually prepare their cars to the class limits would absolutely destroy PAX in the new "weaker" upper classes on a regional level.
(Supplemental: ...and people will still cry "unfair" that their WRX with a BOV is facing off against Bob Tunnel's M3 in Street Modified, so it doesn't really change anything in that regard anyway.)
While I completely see your reasoning (and I used to think the same way), it's just not practical. Expecting to be competitive in a car that does not meet the car prep rules, is simply insane. You wouldn't show up at a bike marathon on the cheapest 10-speed bike you could find from Wal-mart and expect to win, would you? :lol:
Shane -- SM 729
| wrx2.0 555 | 05-28-2004 10:57 AM |
Not to argue. I certainly respect all of the comments I've been reading.
BUT, it would seem that you still dont get Bill's point of "average".
An "average" would take into consideration
1. Driver Ability
2. Type of car
3. Car prep
4. Weather
etc
etc
thats why its called an "average".
To take it a step further, include all Nationals, Divisionals and Pro events in the average.
Scott
BUT, it would seem that you still dont get Bill's point of "average".
An "average" would take into consideration
1. Driver Ability
2. Type of car
3. Car prep
4. Weather
etc
etc
thats why its called an "average".
To take it a step further, include all Nationals, Divisionals and Pro events in the average.
Scott
| del105 | 05-28-2004 11:01 AM |
I guess the my point that I didn't illustrate very well is; I just think PAX is far to generalized and based on far to little information in its current form. It works in its current form but it's far from perfect. I don't have a solution for though.
| MNbiker | 05-28-2004 11:13 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]Not to argue. I certainly respect all of the comments I've been reading.
BUT, it would seem that you still dont get Bill's point of "average".
An "average" would take into consideration
1. Driver Ability
2. Type of car
3. Car prep
4. Weather
etc
etc
thats why its called an "average".
To take it a step further, include all Nationals, Divisionals and Pro events in the average.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
Scott,
It's not that we don't "get" Bill's point - we just don't see how it could actually be implemented.
Items 1 & 4 are continuums, not accurately defined by discrete numbers. I suppose you could come up with some sort of driver rating system that splits drivers into a number of categories, but the categories would be TOTALLY arbitrary. Weather is even more difficult, with differences in temperature, surface, precipitation, elevation (and probably a few I've forgotten) all influencing results. I have NO IDEA how you could quantify weather variables.
Items 2 and 3 are already differentiated. #2 by car classing, #3 by the different classes. The only system I've seen that could possibly enhance this area is a points system for modifications. However, race series' that use points systems still experience the same complaints we're talking about, as humans still have to make decisions about car classing and points assignments.
-Steve
[B]Not to argue. I certainly respect all of the comments I've been reading.
BUT, it would seem that you still dont get Bill's point of "average".
An "average" would take into consideration
1. Driver Ability
2. Type of car
3. Car prep
4. Weather
etc
etc
thats why its called an "average".
To take it a step further, include all Nationals, Divisionals and Pro events in the average.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
Scott,
It's not that we don't "get" Bill's point - we just don't see how it could actually be implemented.
Items 1 & 4 are continuums, not accurately defined by discrete numbers. I suppose you could come up with some sort of driver rating system that splits drivers into a number of categories, but the categories would be TOTALLY arbitrary. Weather is even more difficult, with differences in temperature, surface, precipitation, elevation (and probably a few I've forgotten) all influencing results. I have NO IDEA how you could quantify weather variables.
Items 2 and 3 are already differentiated. #2 by car classing, #3 by the different classes. The only system I've seen that could possibly enhance this area is a points system for modifications. However, race series' that use points systems still experience the same complaints we're talking about, as humans still have to make decisions about car classing and points assignments.
-Steve
| Warp3 | 05-28-2004 11:14 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]To illustrate this point... the east coast doesn't have many fast drivers in RWD cars... how many corvettes at nationals come from Texas, Fl, Cali, vs the rest?
[/B][/QUOTE]
This is a perfect example that Scooby South should be familiar with since he has run in the Asheville, NC and Charlotte, NC areas previously.
Highlands Sports Car Club has a few Corvette drivers (AS, SS and ASP) and, no offense to the drivers, but they aren't really driving at the full capabilities of those cars. I've been all the local vettes several times running in STS and later in DSP both of which have a much lower PAX index than even AS. Yes the Highlands courses are smaller than national level courses, but even on some of the smoother courses where they should have been faster, they simply weren't.
An even better example of the local SCCA Region (Central Carolina Region) which primarily runs in the Charlotte, NC area. I have rarely, if ever, seen a Vette running in ANY class at these events. I'm sure this throws the local PAX off for the classes that Vettes dominate at nationals.
Now don't get me wrong, this is still an argument AGAINST a separate regional PAX. My point is that the results LOOK skewed by the lack of drivers that can drive the car to its potential, or in some cases the class-leading car isn't even present, but that doesn't mean the values are wrong. If the indices are skewed to accomodate this, then a national-level driver in a SS-prepped Z06 shows up and not only takes the SS win, but also takes Fastest Time PAX by a huge margin that is unfair to the competitors in the other classes.
The best way to eliminate "driver issues" with class indices is not to average the best, average and worst drivers, but to grab the best drivers (in most cases, national champs) to actually show what the car is capable of in the right hands.
If you make rules, people will always prepare cars to meet those rules and you can't really blame them for doing so (even with a points-based system, you can always work out a "best combination for a given points value" given enough time/resources).
Shane -- SM 729
[B]To illustrate this point... the east coast doesn't have many fast drivers in RWD cars... how many corvettes at nationals come from Texas, Fl, Cali, vs the rest?
[/B][/QUOTE]
This is a perfect example that Scooby South should be familiar with since he has run in the Asheville, NC and Charlotte, NC areas previously.
Highlands Sports Car Club has a few Corvette drivers (AS, SS and ASP) and, no offense to the drivers, but they aren't really driving at the full capabilities of those cars. I've been all the local vettes several times running in STS and later in DSP both of which have a much lower PAX index than even AS. Yes the Highlands courses are smaller than national level courses, but even on some of the smoother courses where they should have been faster, they simply weren't.
An even better example of the local SCCA Region (Central Carolina Region) which primarily runs in the Charlotte, NC area. I have rarely, if ever, seen a Vette running in ANY class at these events. I'm sure this throws the local PAX off for the classes that Vettes dominate at nationals.
Now don't get me wrong, this is still an argument AGAINST a separate regional PAX. My point is that the results LOOK skewed by the lack of drivers that can drive the car to its potential, or in some cases the class-leading car isn't even present, but that doesn't mean the values are wrong. If the indices are skewed to accomodate this, then a national-level driver in a SS-prepped Z06 shows up and not only takes the SS win, but also takes Fastest Time PAX by a huge margin that is unfair to the competitors in the other classes.
The best way to eliminate "driver issues" with class indices is not to average the best, average and worst drivers, but to grab the best drivers (in most cases, national champs) to actually show what the car is capable of in the right hands.
If you make rules, people will always prepare cars to meet those rules and you can't really blame them for doing so (even with a points-based system, you can always work out a "best combination for a given points value" given enough time/resources).
Shane -- SM 729
| jbrennen | 05-28-2004 11:25 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Warp3 [/i]
[B](b) The Street Modified, Prepared and Modified indices would be horribly skewed (on the low side) due to woefully unprepared cars at a regional level.[/B][/QUOTE]
IMO, PAX shouldn't factor in the performance of uncompetitive cars. At our most recent local SCCA event, 19 of the 27 Street Modified entrants would have finished out of the trophies had they been running in G Stock. :o With all due respect to those drivers and their cars, their performance should mean nothing when calculating PAX. Who would benefit most from giving SM an easier PAX? Not those drivers, they'd still be mid-pack at best; no, the top 2 or 3 SM cars would get "bonus points" for racing against a mob of people who can't (or won't) invest serious effort into building up a car.
The fact that minor modifications kick some people into SM (and that they may be 10+ seconds off the leader's pace) doesn't diminish the fact that the winning SM car has had about $8000 and 50+ hours of labor invested, with a specific intent to be a highly competitive SM car.
[B](b) The Street Modified, Prepared and Modified indices would be horribly skewed (on the low side) due to woefully unprepared cars at a regional level.[/B][/QUOTE]
IMO, PAX shouldn't factor in the performance of uncompetitive cars. At our most recent local SCCA event, 19 of the 27 Street Modified entrants would have finished out of the trophies had they been running in G Stock. :o With all due respect to those drivers and their cars, their performance should mean nothing when calculating PAX. Who would benefit most from giving SM an easier PAX? Not those drivers, they'd still be mid-pack at best; no, the top 2 or 3 SM cars would get "bonus points" for racing against a mob of people who can't (or won't) invest serious effort into building up a car.
The fact that minor modifications kick some people into SM (and that they may be 10+ seconds off the leader's pace) doesn't diminish the fact that the winning SM car has had about $8000 and 50+ hours of labor invested, with a specific intent to be a highly competitive SM car.
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 12:02 PM |
i am on you guys side...I am really....If something I can work to my advantage in the rules, driving, Weather, what ever...I will take it...I know all guys have to pay their dues.and not one of us hasn't.....Maybe i think to hard about this stuff....Back to the original topic...the RS should stay in STS....not STX...
thanks for listening to my rant....I appologize if I stirred the pot, I definately don't want to take anything away from you guys thats worked so hard on being the best driver you can be...I just thought I would spill my 2 pesos...But if you don't try...then things appear to be unchangable....I not saying to reinvent the wheel....just trying to improve the mouse trap....
Bill
thanks for listening to my rant....I appologize if I stirred the pot, I definately don't want to take anything away from you guys thats worked so hard on being the best driver you can be...I just thought I would spill my 2 pesos...But if you don't try...then things appear to be unchangable....I not saying to reinvent the wheel....just trying to improve the mouse trap....
Bill
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 12:34 PM |
thanks Shane...I Fully understand that...If you took Tom or Mike or KC or Steve. and threw them in the SAME car...I bet there would probably be less than a 1/10th between them....you put me or you in that same car...we might be close...(within a sec maybe) so I understand...its all driver...at that point....
Bill
Bill
| KC | 05-28-2004 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby South[/i]
[B] thanks Shane...I Fully understand that...If you took Tom or Mike or KC or Steve. and threw them in the SAME car...I bet there would probably be less than a 1/10th between them....you put me or you in that same car...we might be close...(within a sec maybe) so I understand...its all driver...at that point....
Bill [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't buy that... maybe between Tom and Mike.. sure... but I'm thinking I'd be about 1 second ahead of the both of them. :lol:
[B] thanks Shane...I Fully understand that...If you took Tom or Mike or KC or Steve. and threw them in the SAME car...I bet there would probably be less than a 1/10th between them....you put me or you in that same car...we might be close...(within a sec maybe) so I understand...its all driver...at that point....
Bill [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't buy that... maybe between Tom and Mike.. sure... but I'm thinking I'd be about 1 second ahead of the both of them. :lol:
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 01:07 PM |
:lol: :lol: :lol: Here it comes......I knew someone couldn't remain unobjective...;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] I don't buy that... maybe between Tom and Mike.. sure... but I'm thinking I'd be about 1 second ahead of the both of them. :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: So your saying Steve would be the closest to you...;)
Bill
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] I don't buy that... maybe between Tom and Mike.. sure... but I'm thinking I'd be about 1 second ahead of the both of them. :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: So your saying Steve would be the closest to you...;)
Bill
| KC | 05-28-2004 01:13 PM |
Steve? Yeah, right! :lol: :p
--kC
(*All in good fun ppl!)
--kC
(*All in good fun ppl!)
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 01:18 PM |
KC.....
not getting a [IMG]http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/turb/smile.gif[/IMG] Are you......:cool:
not getting a [IMG]http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/turb/smile.gif[/IMG] Are you......:cool:
| Scooby South | 05-28-2004 01:38 PM |
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... A little birdy JUST told me...that TH is getting engaged?????:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: REALLY.....hmmmm no more DC PRO for you...;) ;)
Bill
Bill
| KC | 05-28-2004 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby South[/i]
[B] Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... A little birdy JUST told me...that TH is getting engaged?????:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: REALLY.....hmmmm no more DC PRO for you...;) ;)
Bill [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah... right. And a monkey will fly out my butt
[B] Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... A little birdy JUST told me...that TH is getting engaged?????:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: REALLY.....hmmmm no more DC PRO for you...;) ;)
Bill [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah... right. And a monkey will fly out my butt
| Sparks | 05-28-2004 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] Yeah... right. And a monkey will fly out my butt [/B][/QUOTE]
Ummmmmmmm k.....I might hold you that.....:lol: :lol:
[B] Yeah... right. And a monkey will fly out my butt [/B][/QUOTE]
Ummmmmmmm k.....I might hold you that.....:lol: :lol:
| Warp3 | 05-28-2004 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby South [/i]
[B]Back to the original topic...the RS should stay in STS....not STX...[/B][/QUOTE]
No argument there. N/A Subarus simply cannot compete with the ITRs and WRXs in STX. As mentioned previously, only on occasion (and even then it's usually only at a ProSolo) do the STS 2.5RSs even catch the STS Civics.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I don't buy that... maybe between Tom and Mike.. sure... but I'm thinking I'd be about 1 second ahead of the both of them. :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: LMAO :lol:
Shane -- SM 729
[B]Back to the original topic...the RS should stay in STS....not STX...[/B][/QUOTE]
No argument there. N/A Subarus simply cannot compete with the ITRs and WRXs in STX. As mentioned previously, only on occasion (and even then it's usually only at a ProSolo) do the STS 2.5RSs even catch the STS Civics.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I don't buy that... maybe between Tom and Mike.. sure... but I'm thinking I'd be about 1 second ahead of the both of them. :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: LMAO :lol:
Shane -- SM 729
| MNbiker | 05-28-2004 03:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby South [/i]
[B]thanks Shane...I Fully understand that...If you took Tom or Mike or KC or Steve. and threw them in the SAME car...I bet there would probably be less than a 1/10th between them....you put me or you in that same car...we might be close...(within a sec maybe) so I understand...its all driver...at that point....
Bill [/B][/QUOTE]
Nahh, I'd be a second behind those guys - still too much of a rookie to play even with those hotshoes. Josh migh give 'em a run for their money, though. (I guess we'll see in September! ;) )
-Steve
(Who thinks KC may be picking monkey fur out of his butt soon....)
[B]thanks Shane...I Fully understand that...If you took Tom or Mike or KC or Steve. and threw them in the SAME car...I bet there would probably be less than a 1/10th between them....you put me or you in that same car...we might be close...(within a sec maybe) so I understand...its all driver...at that point....
Bill [/B][/QUOTE]
Nahh, I'd be a second behind those guys - still too much of a rookie to play even with those hotshoes. Josh migh give 'em a run for their money, though. (I guess we'll see in September! ;) )
-Steve
(Who thinks KC may be picking monkey fur out of his butt soon....)
| Orion | 05-30-2004 10:41 AM |
Checking the Day 1 results for STX at the DC Tour reminded me of a good point that I have a problem with in the ST world.
Cars being eligible for more than one class within the category.
Yes, I know that ST isn't a Category, but running the STS cars in STX is a joke.
If that trend continues we'll have Civic Si's winning STS, STX, and STU at every big event. I don't know what Jesse and Joel's reasoning is for running there with one, but my first guess is the obvious addition of a diff to it. I know Jesse is one heck of a driver, but how soon will we see slower STS drivers move over in Si's to compete more favorably in STX (or even STU) becuase it looks easier to compete there?
With all the problems in the ST world, I'm wondering why I want to bother with it. SP may have it's own big issues, but at least there's a well established system there.
Cars being eligible for more than one class within the category.
Yes, I know that ST isn't a Category, but running the STS cars in STX is a joke.
If that trend continues we'll have Civic Si's winning STS, STX, and STU at every big event. I don't know what Jesse and Joel's reasoning is for running there with one, but my first guess is the obvious addition of a diff to it. I know Jesse is one heck of a driver, but how soon will we see slower STS drivers move over in Si's to compete more favorably in STX (or even STU) becuase it looks easier to compete there?
With all the problems in the ST world, I'm wondering why I want to bother with it. SP may have it's own big issues, but at least there's a well established system there.
| bvondran | 05-30-2004 06:41 PM |
[QUOTE]I have a suspiscion that it's linked to the 2.5RS in ProSolo.. but that cannot be proved... [/QUOTE]
Consider this proved. I had a conversation with Ron Conrad (STAC member) at this weekend's Cen-Div, and one of the first things he brought up was the domination of the RS in Prosolo. He seemed fairly unmoved by my arguments regarding prosolo having the ability to class cars as they see fit and the lack of competitiveness now in STS. The STAC still thinks the RS will be competitive in STX, because it's lighter and torquier than the WRX. Right.
Also mentioned was cometitors complaints about having one-wheel drive rather than 4 (well, 3 really), and national level drivers leaving the class. Well, we had 17 drivers in our class, more than any other class.
I just don't get this. Not at all. Guess I"ll be going to DSP next year.
Brian:(
Consider this proved. I had a conversation with Ron Conrad (STAC member) at this weekend's Cen-Div, and one of the first things he brought up was the domination of the RS in Prosolo. He seemed fairly unmoved by my arguments regarding prosolo having the ability to class cars as they see fit and the lack of competitiveness now in STS. The STAC still thinks the RS will be competitive in STX, because it's lighter and torquier than the WRX. Right.
Also mentioned was cometitors complaints about having one-wheel drive rather than 4 (well, 3 really), and national level drivers leaving the class. Well, we had 17 drivers in our class, more than any other class.
I just don't get this. Not at all. Guess I"ll be going to DSP next year.
Brian:(
| KC | 05-30-2004 09:44 PM |
If it is prosolo, consider one datapoint... me driving Hiroos 2.5RS in the San Bernardino Pro....
It's not even competitive in Pros.
It's not even competitive in Pros.
| MNbiker | 05-30-2004 11:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]If it is prosolo, consider one datapoint... me driving Hiroos 2.5RS in the San Bernardino Pro....
It's not even competitive in Pros. [/B][/QUOTE]
To be fair, Hiroo won STS in the same car at that event, against top-flight competition (McCormick, Motonishi, Hollis, etc.). In addition, Hiroo would have finished 2nd in STX - albiet 1.6 seconds behind Josh. I'd call that at least competitive in Pro's.
However, I'd agree that results for the RS have been spotty at other Pro's and Solo2 Tour events.
-Steve
[B]If it is prosolo, consider one datapoint... me driving Hiroos 2.5RS in the San Bernardino Pro....
It's not even competitive in Pros. [/B][/QUOTE]
To be fair, Hiroo won STS in the same car at that event, against top-flight competition (McCormick, Motonishi, Hollis, etc.). In addition, Hiroo would have finished 2nd in STX - albiet 1.6 seconds behind Josh. I'd call that at least competitive in Pro's.
However, I'd agree that results for the RS have been spotty at other Pro's and Solo2 Tour events.
-Steve
| KC | 05-31-2004 11:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] albiet 1.6 seconds behind Josh. I'd call that at least competitive in Pro's. [/B][/QUOTE]
You call 1.5 seconds behind close? I strongly disagree. When times come down to .2 seconds between the top STX cars at the ProSolo finale?
1.5 Seconds back is NOT competitive in a ProSolo.
[B] albiet 1.6 seconds behind Josh. I'd call that at least competitive in Pro's. [/B][/QUOTE]
You call 1.5 seconds behind close? I strongly disagree. When times come down to .2 seconds between the top STX cars at the ProSolo finale?
1.5 Seconds back is NOT competitive in a ProSolo.
| Warp3 | 05-31-2004 11:54 AM |
BTW, I saw some of the Saturday results posted to the EVO list from the DC Tour and saw Richard West quite a ways back (like 2+ seconds) in STX. Is he still driving the 2.5RS? If so, that's proof enough to me that the 2.5RS simply cannot compete in STX unless he was having a really off day.
Shane -- SM 729
Shane -- SM 729
| zzyzx | 05-31-2004 12:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Warp3 [/i]
[B]Is he still driving the 2.5RS?
Shane -- SM 729 [/B][/QUOTE]
Cooper S.
- Steve
[B]Is he still driving the 2.5RS?
Shane -- SM 729 [/B][/QUOTE]
Cooper S.
- Steve
| mofugga | 05-31-2004 10:21 PM |
funny with all this talk of the RS being too much of an overdog in sts that an sts civic comes along & wins stx in DC. :lol:
has an RS won an sts national tour event yet this year or last?
has an RS won an sts national tour event yet this year or last?
| Corey | 06-01-2004 10:09 AM |
By the way, I talked to an SEB member at the DC Tour this past weekend. He said that the responce to the call for member comment on the issue of moving AWD cars to STX has been "almost nill".
GET YOUR LETTERS OUT!
Corey #89 STS
GET YOUR LETTERS OUT!
Corey #89 STS
| KC | 06-01-2004 10:11 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Corey[/i]
[B] By the way, I talked to an SEB member at the DC Tour this past weekend. He said that the responce to the call for member comment on the issue of moving AWD cars to STX has been "almost nill".
GET YOUR LETTERS OUT!
Corey #89 STS [/B][/QUOTE]
Then Doug Gill hasn't been forwarding the informaiton.
[B] By the way, I talked to an SEB member at the DC Tour this past weekend. He said that the responce to the call for member comment on the issue of moving AWD cars to STX has been "almost nill".
GET YOUR LETTERS OUT!
Corey #89 STS [/B][/QUOTE]
Then Doug Gill hasn't been forwarding the informaiton.
| trhoppe | 06-01-2004 10:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] Then Doug Gill hasn't been forwarding the informaiton. [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly. Stuff that is sent to [email][email�protected][/email] gets filtered by Doug Gill as well. I think I will give him a call tomorow sometime. I should have talked to him at the event, but for some reason I never thought about it :huh:
-Tom
[B] Then Doug Gill hasn't been forwarding the informaiton. [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly. Stuff that is sent to [email][email�protected][/email] gets filtered by Doug Gill as well. I think I will give him a call tomorow sometime. I should have talked to him at the event, but for some reason I never thought about it :huh:
-Tom
| trojan9x | 06-01-2004 07:07 PM |
Well, I tried to do my part in proving that my car, while competitive, could not win at DC (well, I didn't drive well the first day, but no excuses here :D )
3rd at DC in a competitive, yet not dominating RS and no were near light (300lbs heavier than Corey's approx.)
Tom
39 STS
I think I did quite well on Sunday though considering I was in started Sunday in 2nd, went to 5th after 2nd runs, was back in 2nd after my last run, but got edged out by Jeff after his re-run. Time was still out there on both days for sure.
3rd at DC in a competitive, yet not dominating RS and no were near light (300lbs heavier than Corey's approx.)
Tom
39 STS
I think I did quite well on Sunday though considering I was in started Sunday in 2nd, went to 5th after 2nd runs, was back in 2nd after my last run, but got edged out by Jeff after his re-run. Time was still out there on both days for sure.
| ScoobyShak | 06-01-2004 09:21 PM |
Well my letter has been sent.
We will see how this weekend goes at the Pro-Solo in D.C.
Dan #35 STS
And if I continue to suck any body can find my car at the bottom of some cliff.
We will see how this weekend goes at the Pro-Solo in D.C.
Dan #35 STS
And if I continue to suck any body can find my car at the bottom of some cliff.
| Grintch | 06-21-2004 03:24 PM |
New ST proposals (attention STi owners)
�
�
As reported in the July '04 FasTrack (Solo Street Touring category changes/proposals):
A) Item 5 - OE seats which contain integral airbags may not be replaced.
B) Tech bulletin # 5 (apparently my lucky number) - An OE spoiler may not be removed unless the model was availible from the factory without a spoiler.
Write the SEB ([email�protected]) and let them know that you do not like these changes.
Both of these are of particular concern to STi owners. "A" if the stock seat doesn't fit you well (pretty common) or you don't have adequate headroom when wearing a helmet. And "B" if you've considered going wingless (I am assuming replacement would be allowed by exisiting body kit/spoiler/wing provisions).
A) Item 5 - OE seats which contain integral airbags may not be replaced.
B) Tech bulletin # 5 (apparently my lucky number) - An OE spoiler may not be removed unless the model was availible from the factory without a spoiler.
Write the SEB ([email�protected]) and let them know that you do not like these changes.
Both of these are of particular concern to STi owners. "A" if the stock seat doesn't fit you well (pretty common) or you don't have adequate headroom when wearing a helmet. And "B" if you've considered going wingless (I am assuming replacement would be allowed by exisiting body kit/spoiler/wing provisions).
| sperry | 06-21-2004 04:09 PM |
Not allowing the seats is gonna piss off a lot of WRX owners that are sitting in Sparco's having sold their WRX seats to '01 RS owners. :(
| KC | 06-21-2004 04:16 PM |
Big discussion already:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=566384&highlight=fastrack[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=566384&highlight=fastrack[/url]
| Opie | 06-21-2004 04:36 PM |
Threads Merged....
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