| jumbo | 03-29-2005 01:00 PM |
Kumho 710 autocross tire pressures
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I realize I'm going against the grain autocrossing my wrx wagon in DS. But who knows, maybe there is some other masochist out there...
Last year my standard setup was Victo's 225/50/16, SA Koni inserts (full stiff minus 1/2 front, full soft plus 3/4 rear), alignment with max front camber, and a little bit of toe in the rear. I started the year at 45f-40r but as the year went on I settled on 50f-45r.
This year i've taken the plunge and gone for 710's 215/40/16 (edited to correct tire size :rolleyes: ). Same width, 2 inches shorter. Around here I don't have a problem running out of 2nd gear, I have a problem chugging thru tight turns at 4K rpm.
The only other change is a big front sway bar. Everyone local swears it is going to make Suebee push like pig, but we'll see. It's a cheap experiment. A heck of a lot cheaper than the 710 experiment.
So the question is, what pressures to start with? It's all pavement here. Any ideas?
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url]
Last year my standard setup was Victo's 225/50/16, SA Koni inserts (full stiff minus 1/2 front, full soft plus 3/4 rear), alignment with max front camber, and a little bit of toe in the rear. I started the year at 45f-40r but as the year went on I settled on 50f-45r.
This year i've taken the plunge and gone for 710's 215/40/16 (edited to correct tire size :rolleyes: ). Same width, 2 inches shorter. Around here I don't have a problem running out of 2nd gear, I have a problem chugging thru tight turns at 4K rpm.
The only other change is a big front sway bar. Everyone local swears it is going to make Suebee push like pig, but we'll see. It's a cheap experiment. A heck of a lot cheaper than the 710 experiment.
So the question is, what pressures to start with? It's all pavement here. Any ideas?
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url]
| ratt_finkel | 03-29-2005 01:06 PM |
The FSB will help drastically. You will be able to hold a much tighter line. Honestly, pressures are just something you're going to have to expirement with. But I would say start with 35 front, 32 rear, cold. And go from there.
| zzyzx | 03-29-2005 01:24 PM |
Start with 50 F/R and go up/down from there.
| leecea | 03-29-2005 02:14 PM |
I'd be really interested in your results since my setup is the same as yours except I'm running a sedan. I'm going to run the first two events on last year's Victoracers then decide what tire to go with. Please keep us posted on how these work out.
As you say, going to anything other than Victoracers can be an expensive experiment, so it's best when others try it first :)
As you say, going to anything other than Victoracers can be an expensive experiment, so it's best when others try it first :)
| 10th Warrior | 03-29-2005 02:19 PM |
hard to say. from my limited experience with the 710s, they seem to like less pressure then 700s and way less pressure then hoosiers. problem is, i haven't run the 710s on a stock class vehicle, so its hard to say if this will generalize to a softly sprung, camber-challenged car. I'd probably adjust the pressures of the 700s to account for the FSB, and then use that as a starting point (maybe minus a few pounds) for the 710s, and play around with it.
| del105 | 03-29-2005 02:26 PM |
710's don't like alot of air like other tires, 50 is way to much. I think 36 all around would be about perfect.
| Rick Hunter | 03-29-2005 04:18 PM |
[QUOTE=jumbo]I realize I'm going against the grain autocrossing my wrx wagon in DS. But who knows, maybe there is some other masochist out there...
This year i've taken the plunge and gone for 710's 215/45/16. Same width, 2 inches shorter. Around here I don't have a problem running out of 2nd gear, I have a problem chugging thru tight turns at 4K rpm.
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url][/QUOTE]
Just wondering though, I don't see 215/45/16 on Kumho's website, only 215/40/16:
[url]http://www.kumhousa.com/Products/PtnDetails.asp?mainCatID=1&PtnID=EV710[/url]
I'm considering these tires as well for this season, but might prefer 225/50/16 on stock 2000 RS (7 inch) rims as the 215's recommend 7 to 8.5 inch rims while the 225s recommend 6 to 8 inch rims.
I used to run my Escta 225/50/16 v70a (not the old victos) at 42 front, 38 rear with -2 camber in the front, -1 in the rear on v7 sti suspension. That lasted me 2 seasons easily, never really hurt the shoulders much.
This year i've taken the plunge and gone for 710's 215/45/16. Same width, 2 inches shorter. Around here I don't have a problem running out of 2nd gear, I have a problem chugging thru tight turns at 4K rpm.
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url][/QUOTE]
Just wondering though, I don't see 215/45/16 on Kumho's website, only 215/40/16:
[url]http://www.kumhousa.com/Products/PtnDetails.asp?mainCatID=1&PtnID=EV710[/url]
I'm considering these tires as well for this season, but might prefer 225/50/16 on stock 2000 RS (7 inch) rims as the 215's recommend 7 to 8.5 inch rims while the 225s recommend 6 to 8 inch rims.
I used to run my Escta 225/50/16 v70a (not the old victos) at 42 front, 38 rear with -2 camber in the front, -1 in the rear on v7 sti suspension. That lasted me 2 seasons easily, never really hurt the shoulders much.
| ratt_finkel | 03-29-2005 04:50 PM |
FYI, the 225/50/16's will fit on WRX rims. I run those obviously on RS rims, but had them accidently mounted on WRX rims.
| Patrick Olsen | 03-30-2005 01:15 AM |
I ran some 205/50-15s on the Legacy when the V710s first came out. I was running about the same as what I've always run with my 225/50-15 Victoracers - somewhere in the 34-36# range.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I've never run anything even remotely close to 45+ psi in my race tires. I've run 225/50-15 Victoracers for about 3 years (basically a new set each year), and in the past year I've experimented with the 205/50-15 V710s (too small) and now 225/45-15 Avon Tech Rs. Even when I had the stock suspension back on the car for a year or so between coil-over setups I still ran the Victos in the mid-30s and had perfectly even wear across the tread. Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing, because I've never tried pressures that high - maybe my car would be even faster?
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I've never run anything even remotely close to 45+ psi in my race tires. I've run 225/50-15 Victoracers for about 3 years (basically a new set each year), and in the past year I've experimented with the 205/50-15 V710s (too small) and now 225/45-15 Avon Tech Rs. Even when I had the stock suspension back on the car for a year or so between coil-over setups I still ran the Victos in the mid-30s and had perfectly even wear across the tread. Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing, because I've never tried pressures that high - maybe my car would be even faster?
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| mtnbkrcr | 03-30-2005 01:50 AM |
I agree with Pat. I have run the ECSTA V700 and ran pressures of around 32-36psi on MY01 RS, these were 205/45/26. There was one guy running 50psi on his MY04RS. I thought that this was a little high. Alot of the people I have talked to say to run the lowest tire pressure possible.
| KC | 03-30-2005 08:27 AM |
In stock, I know people that were running around 60psi in the rear... for rotation. :devil:
| jumbo | 03-30-2005 01:07 PM |
Oops, sorry, actual size is 215/40/16.
Thanks for the suggestions. And I thought I was the only one who'd care.
Sounds like I should start in the mid-30's and see from there.
With victos i had super-high edge temps at lower pressures, 45-40 was fairly even and I stuck with that for 1/2 the year. At some point i tried 50-45 and the car was definitely faster as opposed to 45-40. It felt better and ran faster, that seemed like a good combination so i went with it.
I was hoping to run a couple of events on the old victos with just the front bar changed to see what kind of diff it makes. I only got one event in before they finally corded at about 125 runs but it was so cold and the course so different from usual that I couldn't make any kind of comparison at all. I might as well been on street tires.
So the new 710's with a new bar are going to be an all new experience.
jim
Thanks for the suggestions. And I thought I was the only one who'd care.
Sounds like I should start in the mid-30's and see from there.
With victos i had super-high edge temps at lower pressures, 45-40 was fairly even and I stuck with that for 1/2 the year. At some point i tried 50-45 and the car was definitely faster as opposed to 45-40. It felt better and ran faster, that seemed like a good combination so i went with it.
I was hoping to run a couple of events on the old victos with just the front bar changed to see what kind of diff it makes. I only got one event in before they finally corded at about 125 runs but it was so cold and the course so different from usual that I couldn't make any kind of comparison at all. I might as well been on street tires.
So the new 710's with a new bar are going to be an all new experience.
jim
| 10th Warrior | 03-30-2005 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]In stock, I know people that were running around 60psi in the rear... for rotation. :devil:[/QUOTE]
with the Hoosiers, i was running 57 in the rear on concrete ;)
with the Hoosiers, i was running 57 in the rear on concrete ;)
| Midnight_Gold | 03-30-2005 03:08 PM |
Hmm.. the 710's I've run on never seemed to have any trouble sitting in the 40's cold.
| MulletSlayer | 03-30-2005 03:11 PM |
On Concrete, how many 60 second runs can someone expect to get out of a set of 710s?
| del105 | 03-30-2005 03:31 PM |
[QUOTE=MulletSlayer]On Concrete, how many 60 second runs can someone expect to get out of a set of 710s?[/QUOTE]
They will get hard before they cord. Probably 100 runs before they cord. 40 before the tires start getting hard.
Also 710s do not need to be heat cycled just put them on and go they are good right out the box.
They will get hard before they cord. Probably 100 runs before they cord. 40 before the tires start getting hard.
Also 710s do not need to be heat cycled just put them on and go they are good right out the box.
| AUTOwrXER | 03-30-2005 03:48 PM |
We had better results after one heat cycle.
Pressures are 33 F and R compared to 51 F and R on the Hoosiers. Start in the mid 30s, mark the sidewalls, and adjust from there.
Pressures are 33 F and R compared to 51 F and R on the Hoosiers. Start in the mid 30s, mark the sidewalls, and adjust from there.
| zzyzx | 03-30-2005 03:51 PM |
Does nobody here who spends thousands on car setup and tires, own a pyrometer? :lol:
Marking sidewalls on R-compunds is like performing brain surgery with a butter knife. ;)
Marking sidewalls on R-compunds is like performing brain surgery with a butter knife. ;)
| AUTOwrXER | 03-30-2005 04:06 PM |
Actually we used the probe-type pyrometer to arrive at 33/33. You can still see rollover with chalk even if you don't have a pyrometer (which the thread starter probably doesn't have or he wouldn't have needed to ask the question).
| zzyzx | 03-30-2005 04:15 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER](which the thread starter probably doesn't have or he wouldn't have needed to ask the question).[/QUOTE]
Probably true, but considering the relatively cheap cost of a pyrometer compared to a set of R-compunds, many would be well advised to start using one.
Probably true, but considering the relatively cheap cost of a pyrometer compared to a set of R-compunds, many would be well advised to start using one.
| trhoppe | 03-30-2005 04:30 PM |
$40 at radio shack for an IR one. The probe type of course is betterer, but i've had great results with the IR one.
-Tom
-Tom
| Draken | 03-30-2005 04:34 PM |
wow...V710 do differ alot in pressures. I was on 275/40-17 Hoosiers at nationals (on narrow 8-inch rims, which might have made it worse) and was around 46/46 for pressures. Camber and temps were just right. Also in and ESP STi.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| 10th Warrior | 03-30-2005 04:38 PM |
[QUOTE=zzyzx]Does nobody here who spends thousands on car setup and tires, own a pyrometer? :lol:[/QUOTE]
a pyrometer does no good on a stock class subaru. tried it once, all it told me was i needed more camber. very informative :rolleyes: :)
a pyrometer does no good on a stock class subaru. tried it once, all it told me was i needed more camber. very informative :rolleyes: :)
| trhoppe | 03-30-2005 04:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]wow...V710 do differ alot in pressures. I was on 275/40-17 Hoosiers at nationals (on narrow 8-inch rims, which might have made it worse) and was around 46/46 for pressures. Camber and temps were just right. Also in and ESP STi.
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
The same size V710s 275/40/17 like around 32-34 hot as well :) Big difference in sidewall construction.
-Tom
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
The same size V710s 275/40/17 like around 32-34 hot as well :) Big difference in sidewall construction.
-Tom
| del105 | 03-30-2005 06:40 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]We had better results after one heat cycle.
Pressures are 33 F and R compared to 51 F and R on the Hoosiers. Start in the mid 30s, mark the sidewalls, and adjust from there.[/QUOTE]
Are you counting the Test and tune as a heat cycle? I scrubbed mine in for good measure, but by no means where they heat cycled. What I'm saying is unlike other R-comps I've used where if you run them brand new you will have very little traction, the 710's where grippy with no preparation.
andrew
Pressures are 33 F and R compared to 51 F and R on the Hoosiers. Start in the mid 30s, mark the sidewalls, and adjust from there.[/QUOTE]
Are you counting the Test and tune as a heat cycle? I scrubbed mine in for good measure, but by no means where they heat cycled. What I'm saying is unlike other R-comps I've used where if you run them brand new you will have very little traction, the 710's where grippy with no preparation.
andrew
| makofoto | 03-30-2005 11:09 PM |
I attended a Kuhmo seminar ... and they definitely recommended heat cycling the 710's. But they also said you need to get them close to 200 degrees .... which is VERY hard to do by driving it. Perhaps the hottest day on concrete ... but remember we need the heat in the carcass ... not just on the outer edges.
"Tommy Hoosier" @ Mid Atlantic says heat cycling is over rated and only a Tire Rack money making ploy because they own the machinery. Btw ... they heat cycle the tire off the rim ... pushed up against a roller.
If you do attempt to heat cycle a tire yourself ... you should take the tire off of the car for the seasoning session ... you don't want one sided pressure on it ...
"Tommy Hoosier" @ Mid Atlantic says heat cycling is over rated and only a Tire Rack money making ploy because they own the machinery. Btw ... they heat cycle the tire off the rim ... pushed up against a roller.
If you do attempt to heat cycle a tire yourself ... you should take the tire off of the car for the seasoning session ... you don't want one sided pressure on it ...
| AUTOwrXER | 03-31-2005 11:27 AM |
[QUOTE=del105]Are you counting the Test and tune as a heat cycle? I scrubbed mine in for good measure, but by no means where they heat cycled. What I'm saying is unlike other R-comps I've used where if you run them brand new you will have very little traction, the 710's where grippy with no preparation.
andrew[/QUOTE]
The tires had more grip on Sunday after we ran them at the test and tune Saturday. They certainly weren't bad on Saturday, but they were better Sunday. I would not go to a National event without putting one heat cycle on a new set of V710s.
andrew[/QUOTE]
The tires had more grip on Sunday after we ran them at the test and tune Saturday. They certainly weren't bad on Saturday, but they were better Sunday. I would not go to a National event without putting one heat cycle on a new set of V710s.
| del105 | 03-31-2005 11:55 AM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]The tires had more grip on Sunday after we ran them at the test and tune Saturday. They certainly weren't bad on Saturday, but they were better Sunday. I would not go to a National event without putting one heat cycle on a new set of V710s.[/QUOTE]
neither would I, but I wouldn't pay 15 dollars a tire for it either.
andrew
neither would I, but I wouldn't pay 15 dollars a tire for it either.
andrew
| makofoto | 03-31-2005 03:03 PM |
$60 for heating treating is cheap if you are spending $900 for R tires ... and the heat treating gives you 20 more laps ...
| zzyzx | 03-31-2005 03:11 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]$60 for heating treating is cheap if you are spending $900 for R tires ... and the heat treating gives you 20 more laps ...[/QUOTE]
Agreed. But, what costs less, taking the car out on the highway for a 20 minute drive and putting it up on jackstands for the night, or $60.
Agreed. But, what costs less, taking the car out on the highway for a 20 minute drive and putting it up on jackstands for the night, or $60.
| KC | 03-31-2005 03:21 PM |
Evo school the weekend before Atlanta Pro... maybe after classes are done I'll take a few runs on the course. :)
| makofoto | 03-31-2005 03:34 PM |
According to Kuhmo ... that isn't heat treating ...? Better then nothing perhaps. TrackSide Performance, Yoko racing tire importer says that the heat from shaving tires helps a bit ...
But Kuhmo says you need near 200 degree temperature to get the strands to combine ...
But Kuhmo says you need near 200 degree temperature to get the strands to combine ...
| KC | 03-31-2005 03:45 PM |
Hmmm... jack the car up and punch it.. then swap wheels? :lol:
| AUTOwrXER | 03-31-2005 03:48 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Evo school the weekend before Atlanta Pro... maybe after classes are done I'll take a few runs on the course. :)[/QUOTE]
Or maybe not ;)
Or maybe not ;)
| del105 | 03-31-2005 03:50 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]$60 for heating treating is cheap if you are spending $900 for R tires ... and the heat treating gives you 20 more laps ...[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, but what I'm saying is you wont get 20 more laps out of them and you're wasting you're money. I'd tend to believe Kumho but I don't think they said that you'd get 20 more laps. I guess its up to everyone to experiment for themselves and draw their own conclussions.
I agree with you, but what I'm saying is you wont get 20 more laps out of them and you're wasting you're money. I'd tend to believe Kumho but I don't think they said that you'd get 20 more laps. I guess its up to everyone to experiment for themselves and draw their own conclussions.
| jumbo | 04-01-2005 01:15 PM |
Data point on mounting the 215/40/16 710's on stock rims.
Guy said it took them 6 hours.
Part of that was probably dinking around putting screw on valve stems on after the tires were already mounted. He said they couldn't get them to inflate with rubber valve stems. someone will have to explain that one to me.
Anyway, they only charged me the quoted price, $15/tire plus $5/tire for the valve stems.
Even if they were jerking me around on the valve stems, $80 for 6 hours of work is still a pretty good deal. It cost me $50 to get the old victos mounted and i felt like i was stealing.
I don't think they were making up the 6 hours. but it sounded like a lot of that was lesson learned time. But I don't think he's going to quote me $15 a tire next time...
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url]
Guy said it took them 6 hours.
Part of that was probably dinking around putting screw on valve stems on after the tires were already mounted. He said they couldn't get them to inflate with rubber valve stems. someone will have to explain that one to me.
Anyway, they only charged me the quoted price, $15/tire plus $5/tire for the valve stems.
Even if they were jerking me around on the valve stems, $80 for 6 hours of work is still a pretty good deal. It cost me $50 to get the old victos mounted and i felt like i was stealing.
I don't think they were making up the 6 hours. but it sounded like a lot of that was lesson learned time. But I don't think he's going to quote me $15 a tire next time...
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url]
| trhoppe | 04-01-2005 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE=jumbo]Data point on mounting the 215/40/16 710's on stock rims.
Guy said it took them 6 hours.
Part of that was probably dinking around putting screw on valve stems on after the tires were already mounted. He said they couldn't get them to inflate with rubber valve stems. someone will have to explain that one to me.
Anyway, they only charged me the quoted price, $15/tire plus $5/tire for the valve stems.
Even if they were jerking me around on the valve stems, $80 for 6 hours of work is still a pretty good deal. It cost me $50 to get the old victos mounted and i felt like i was stealing.
I don't think they were making up the 6 hours. but it sounded like a lot of that was lesson learned time. But I don't think he's going to quote me $15 a tire next time...
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url][/QUOTE]
Sorry, but they are really
a) really stupid
or
b) have no idea what they are doing
-Tom
who pays $3 on and $3 off for tire mounting and there have never been problems mounting anything from 215/40 on stock wheels to 275/40 on 7.5" wheels
Guy said it took them 6 hours.
Part of that was probably dinking around putting screw on valve stems on after the tires were already mounted. He said they couldn't get them to inflate with rubber valve stems. someone will have to explain that one to me.
Anyway, they only charged me the quoted price, $15/tire plus $5/tire for the valve stems.
Even if they were jerking me around on the valve stems, $80 for 6 hours of work is still a pretty good deal. It cost me $50 to get the old victos mounted and i felt like i was stealing.
I don't think they were making up the 6 hours. but it sounded like a lot of that was lesson learned time. But I don't think he's going to quote me $15 a tire next time...
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url][/QUOTE]
Sorry, but they are really
a) really stupid
or
b) have no idea what they are doing
-Tom
who pays $3 on and $3 off for tire mounting and there have never been problems mounting anything from 215/40 on stock wheels to 275/40 on 7.5" wheels
| AUTOwrXER | 04-01-2005 04:01 PM |
I say a) and b)
Moderator status, Tom? Oh hell...
Moderator status, Tom? Oh hell...
| jumbo | 04-03-2005 08:01 PM |
Went to my first event on the new 215/40 710's today.
Not the best event for testing:
23 second runs
Sealed pavement
Course sloped dramatically
Only good thing, temps about 55 or 60 and sunny
registration closed at 9:30 and they didn't a friggin car on course until 11:45. ouch.
my impression is that the tires felt slick and sticky at the same time. kind of like honey. they stick, but they seem to slide a bit too. of course, this could have been the sealed pavement too.
pressures and times:
40/40 23.656
42/42 22.702
45/42 22.9xx
38/38 23.296
39/39 22.9xx
45/39 22.999
So I didn't learn much today. i kind of expected to see better times when i dropped to 38/38 on run 4, but not really. Although on a course this short all it would take is one tiny mistake (or 1 more mistake than the other runs). But I would say the tires didn't feel better at 38 than they did at 45, they seemed to slide around more. although you could say that the car rotated better, just not controllably :)
Next week i have an event at a big site that i have been to before so i should learn more.
plus we have a drag strip 2 miles from here, I plan on running the little tires back to back with the stock tires to see what acceleration looks like.
jim
Not the best event for testing:
23 second runs
Sealed pavement
Course sloped dramatically
Only good thing, temps about 55 or 60 and sunny
registration closed at 9:30 and they didn't a friggin car on course until 11:45. ouch.
my impression is that the tires felt slick and sticky at the same time. kind of like honey. they stick, but they seem to slide a bit too. of course, this could have been the sealed pavement too.
pressures and times:
40/40 23.656
42/42 22.702
45/42 22.9xx
38/38 23.296
39/39 22.9xx
45/39 22.999
So I didn't learn much today. i kind of expected to see better times when i dropped to 38/38 on run 4, but not really. Although on a course this short all it would take is one tiny mistake (or 1 more mistake than the other runs). But I would say the tires didn't feel better at 38 than they did at 45, they seemed to slide around more. although you could say that the car rotated better, just not controllably :)
Next week i have an event at a big site that i have been to before so i should learn more.
plus we have a drag strip 2 miles from here, I plan on running the little tires back to back with the stock tires to see what acceleration looks like.
jim
| ratt_finkel | 04-04-2005 06:32 PM |
I ran 35 front and rear this weekend. The car weighed in at 2889 with a full tank and spare and jack. So probably 2850 with that stuff out, and the right amount of gas. For a wrx. I would probably try 38 front and rear. I'm going to try higer pressures in the rear next time. As the car wasn't rotating quite as much as I like.
Also, this was on fairly slick asphault. On sticky concrete the pressures may have to be as much as 5psi higher. I'll let you know at the end of the month when I run them on such a site.
Also, this was on fairly slick asphault. On sticky concrete the pressures may have to be as much as 5psi higher. I'll let you know at the end of the month when I run them on such a site.
| Cosworth | 04-04-2005 06:51 PM |
Why isn't this crap done at the Kumho factory then? If R-compounds generally require an additional "special" process for them to be "usable", why don't they take care of properly processing them before selling an "unfinished" tire to the public (especially when said process is apparently so specialized [temp, time, etc]). I myself have purchased a few sets of R's over the years, and every time have paid for the damn heat-cycling since everyone claims that its pretty much requisite for full performance and longevity. I could see if this was a trick racers used to extend tire life beyond factory 100% life expectency, but that's not the case since the manufacturers have willfully admitted to necessitating this process to an exacting degree for full product life, not more.
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
| ratt_finkel | 04-04-2005 06:53 PM |
Because if they wear out quicker. You have to buy more.
| Cosworth | 04-04-2005 06:55 PM |
It can't be that blatent though.
| makofoto | 04-04-2005 07:53 PM |
Why not ...
... and ... properly done ... heat cycling is time and labor intensive. The tire's work well without heat cycling ... h.c. is just a consumer "trick" to get more life out of the tire. Now 3rd parties offer it as a billable service ...
... and ... properly done ... heat cycling is time and labor intensive. The tire's work well without heat cycling ... h.c. is just a consumer "trick" to get more life out of the tire. Now 3rd parties offer it as a billable service ...
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 10:02 AM |
Right, but the tire companies have admitted to the fact that its a necessary process to obtain %100 of the tire, not %120 where we are getting more for our money. Especially with the 710 where it's near impossible to properly cycle it outside of specialized machinery.
| DrBiggly | 04-05-2005 11:56 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Evo school the weekend before Atlanta Pro... maybe after classes are done I'll take a few runs on the course. :)[/QUOTE]
Are you one of the instructors? :confused:
Are you one of the instructors? :confused:
| trhoppe | 04-05-2005 12:08 PM |
[quote]Especially with the 710 where it's near impossible to properly cycle it outside of specialized machinery.[/quote] :huh: Just take it out for a 20 min highway drive and a few laps around a skidpad.
-Tom
-Tom
| KC | 04-05-2005 12:52 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Are you one of the instructors? :confused:[/QUOTE]
Nope. ;)
Nope. ;)
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 01:07 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]:huh: Just take it out for a 20 min highway drive and a few laps around a skidpad.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
You would guarantee that process would precisely heat the tire to Kumho's requirements? Is that whe method you employ for every set of race tires you've purchased?
-Tom[/QUOTE]
You would guarantee that process would precisely heat the tire to Kumho's requirements? Is that whe method you employ for every set of race tires you've purchased?
| trhoppe | 04-05-2005 01:10 PM |
[quote]Is that the method you employ for every set of race tires you've purchased?[/quote] Yes, never had any problems.
-Tom
-Tom
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 01:19 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Yes, never had any problems.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
But you can't gurantee that it is the exact process needed to properly and fully perform the initial heat cycle for any race tire, nor do you have any concrete numbers from the manufacturers or yourself to validate it? Essentially just hearsay?
-Tom[/QUOTE]
But you can't gurantee that it is the exact process needed to properly and fully perform the initial heat cycle for any race tire, nor do you have any concrete numbers from the manufacturers or yourself to validate it? Essentially just hearsay?
| del105 | 04-05-2005 01:42 PM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]But you can't gurantee that it is the exact process needed to properly and fully perform the initial heat cycle for any race tire, nor do you have any concrete numbers from the manufacturers or yourself to validate it? Essentially just hearsay?[/QUOTE]
Isn't that exactly the same a what tirerack is feeding you? I don't see any concrete numbers on their site.
Isn't that exactly the same a what tirerack is feeding you? I don't see any concrete numbers on their site.
| trhoppe | 04-05-2005 01:43 PM |
[QUOTE=del105]Isn't that exactly the same a what tirerack is feeding you? I don't see any concrete numbers on their site.[/QUOTE]
:lol: That what I was going to say.
What ARE these numbers you speak of? Who has given them to you? Where did you see/hear of them? How do you know its what TireRack does?
-Tom
:lol: That what I was going to say.
What ARE these numbers you speak of? Who has given them to you? Where did you see/hear of them? How do you know its what TireRack does?
-Tom
| del105 | 04-05-2005 01:45 PM |
All I'm saying to everyone here is at some point your tires are going to get heat cycled. I prefer to heat cycle mine at a local event or test and tune by driving my car and having fun. Some people prefer to give tirerack 60.00.
| trhoppe | 04-05-2005 01:46 PM |
This is what TireRack does when they heat cycle
"New tires will be slippery for their first laps, and will begin to feel better as they get scuffed in and build up heat. We recommend that drivers heat cycle their tires before using them in competition. Heat cycling helps you get the most consistent performance and tread life out of your tires. [b]It is the process of gently bringing the tires up to temperature for a short duration and letting them cool.[/b] Ideally, you should break in your tires, remove them from your vehicle and set them aside for more than 24 hours before your track sessions and races. Often this requires running a practice session on new tires to prepare them for a future race, while you use tires prepared previously for the current race. [b]The Tire Rack offers an automated heat cycling service that can complete this process[/b] before your tires are delivered to you."
-Tom
"New tires will be slippery for their first laps, and will begin to feel better as they get scuffed in and build up heat. We recommend that drivers heat cycle their tires before using them in competition. Heat cycling helps you get the most consistent performance and tread life out of your tires. [b]It is the process of gently bringing the tires up to temperature for a short duration and letting them cool.[/b] Ideally, you should break in your tires, remove them from your vehicle and set them aside for more than 24 hours before your track sessions and races. Often this requires running a practice session on new tires to prepare them for a future race, while you use tires prepared previously for the current race. [b]The Tire Rack offers an automated heat cycling service that can complete this process[/b] before your tires are delivered to you."
-Tom
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 01:54 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]:huh: Just take it out for a 20 min highway drive and a few laps around a skidpad.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
You had said the above, as if to imply it were the final answer and i should not question it further. I was just curious since i don't know who you are and why you (*or* tirerack's) word would be the last. My initial arguement was that the manufacturer should perform the process if its essential and exacting.
Obviously i don't have any date or "concrete numbers" since i'm questioning the whole process here. I'd love to see some more official info rather than just being the blind following the blind.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
You had said the above, as if to imply it were the final answer and i should not question it further. I was just curious since i don't know who you are and why you (*or* tirerack's) word would be the last. My initial arguement was that the manufacturer should perform the process if its essential and exacting.
Obviously i don't have any date or "concrete numbers" since i'm questioning the whole process here. I'd love to see some more official info rather than just being the blind following the blind.
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 02:00 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]This is what TireRack does when they heat cycle
[/QUOTE]
Which unfortunately says nothing. How much? How long? Etc, etc...
[/QUOTE]
Which unfortunately says nothing. How much? How long? Etc, etc...
| KC | 04-05-2005 02:05 PM |
Wow, got a chip on your shoulder? I read Toms thing as an ALTERNATIVE to paying TireRack from doing it... you know.. cheaper/free?
Would you pay $1060 for a set of tires if you could pay $1000 for them? If the companies heat cycled all the tires, they'd be even MORE expensive than what we pay now, no? Since it's a service that not everyone would want, or could do themselves, I feel that manufacturers SHOULDN'T be doing the heat cycling.
Some teams don't care how long a tire lasts.. it's going to only last one race then be tossed.
The consumer, on our end, can make that determination if we want them heat cycled or not, and if we want to pay for the conveince (tirerack) to have them do it, or we can do it for free. It's been long standing knowledge in the autocross/race community that what Tom posted is a fairly good processes to heat cycle them after just getting them.
It's not blind leading the blind. Attacks like that don't help people SHARE information. It's up to the readers here to make the detrmination whether the info is valid or not.... you calling out Tom like that doesn't do anyone any favors. If you're looking to make Tom look bad, he does just by himself sometimes... he doesn't need anyones help. :devil:
--kC
Would you pay $1060 for a set of tires if you could pay $1000 for them? If the companies heat cycled all the tires, they'd be even MORE expensive than what we pay now, no? Since it's a service that not everyone would want, or could do themselves, I feel that manufacturers SHOULDN'T be doing the heat cycling.
Some teams don't care how long a tire lasts.. it's going to only last one race then be tossed.
The consumer, on our end, can make that determination if we want them heat cycled or not, and if we want to pay for the conveince (tirerack) to have them do it, or we can do it for free. It's been long standing knowledge in the autocross/race community that what Tom posted is a fairly good processes to heat cycle them after just getting them.
It's not blind leading the blind. Attacks like that don't help people SHARE information. It's up to the readers here to make the detrmination whether the info is valid or not.... you calling out Tom like that doesn't do anyone any favors. If you're looking to make Tom look bad, he does just by himself sometimes... he doesn't need anyones help. :devil:
--kC
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 02:22 PM |
I have no chip nor do i know who Tom is either, so for him to mock me and claim that i should "just do..." without question doesn't really help me when i'm looking for some official info. I fully agree with disseminating the info out there. What little experience i've had in this arena i've gladly shared, but i never pass along unsubstantiated information.
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?
| del105 | 04-05-2005 02:32 PM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]I have no chip nor do i know who Tom is either, so for him to mock me and claim that i should "just do..." without question doesn't really help me when i'm looking for some official info. I fully agree with disseminating the info out there. What little experience i've had in this arena i've gladly shared, but i never pass along unsubstantiated information.
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?[/QUOTE]
You're going to have to do you're own experimentation and come to you're own conclussions. I have done mine.
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?[/QUOTE]
You're going to have to do you're own experimentation and come to you're own conclussions. I have done mine.
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